pepper spray versus stun gun


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col_temp
July 15, 2014, 11:54 PM
Hi all,

Too lazy to dig around. :rolleyes: So has anyone got a good resource showing the comparison of the various non-lethal defense weapons.

This is for a friend who thinks a stun gun is the best route for his daughter to carry. I think pepper spray or mace would be better.

So what do you all think and why! Feel free to direct to where some good articles are. :D

thanks ahead of time!

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Sam Cade
July 16, 2014, 12:02 AM
Under limited circumstances a Taser is a very effective weapon.

A "stun gun" is usually nothing more than a toy.
http://www.amazon.com/VIPERTEK-VTS-989-Heavy-Rechargeable-Flashlight/dp/B00FPE6UN2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1405483297&sr=8-1&keywords=stun+gun

col_temp
July 16, 2014, 12:04 AM
Agreed, should add that sun fun and taser mean the day thing here.

hso
July 16, 2014, 01:05 AM
Hold up.

It is important to be sure what we're talking about. A stun gun is a nearly useless pain compliance electrical device as opposed to a Taser that incapacitates through the use of electricity delivered at prescribed voltages and frequency to overload the nerve signals of voluntary muscles.

We have had a wide range of discussions of the merits of Tasers and their shortcomings as well as various chemical sprays. Sprays are much more convenient to carry and have ready and may be better for the poorly trained user. Streams are better for preventing blow back due to wind, but require better aim than sprays or fogs.

None of them are a substitute for situational awareness and some minimal training on avoiding and evading potentially dangerous situation.

glistam
July 16, 2014, 08:53 AM
Also, "Mace" may be a misnomer in this case, as it is the same thing as pepper spray. I will explain.

Mace is a brand name, but back in the 80s or so it was also a phenacyl chloride-based spray. Far as I know phenacyl chloride mace has been discontinued in favor of pepper spray (oleoresin capsicum-based, or "OC"). The Mace company now sells pepper spray with the "Mace" logo on it, so there seems to be a persistent misconception that it's a different chemical altogether.

There are many brands of pepper spray available besides the Mace brand. It is generally better to spend a bit more on the nicer ones, as even these still are not very expensive compared to most self-defense weapons (effective ones, anyway).

4v50 Gary
July 16, 2014, 09:48 AM
Pepper spray. Keep the distance.

She should also learn hand to hand defense.

gunnutery
July 20, 2014, 11:37 PM
There are reportedly people that are "immune" to pepper spray, which is out of your control whether they are or aren't. Tasers have also been found to be ineffective on certain people (usually heavily drugged). However, between the two, I'd choose pepper spray. Not only do you not get to control whether or not someone is impervious to either weapon, with the taser, you also have to hit the badguy with both prongs at once. Usually the wider spread has more effect than that of a smaller spread. So when the badguy is really up close and personal, I believe the pepper gives a greater effect.

I've also taken doses of both weapons. They both suck, but with the taser, I felt great afterwards. When you get hit with pepper spray, you know you'll be playing with water for the next half hour, whether you wanted to play with water or not.

ugaarguy
July 21, 2014, 12:38 AM
You also need to check local laws. Both pepper sprays and stun guns are restricted to adult use in many jurisdictions.

Mace is a brand name, but back in the 80s or so it was also a phenacyl chloride-based spray. Far as I know phenacyl chloride mace has been discontinued in favor of pepper spray (oleoresin capsicum-based, or "OC"). The Mace company now sells pepper spray with the "Mace" logo on it, so there seems to be a persistent misconception that it's a different chemical altogether.
Phenacyl Chloride is CN tear gas. The Mace brand sells both OC only sprays and an OC/CN gas mix with UV marking dye under their "Triple Action" line. Similarly Sabre sells a OC/CS tear gas mix with UV marking dye under their "Advanced 3 in 1 Formula" line, formerly known as "Sabre Blue". Sabre still sells their OC only spray under their "Sabre Red" line.

BLB68
July 21, 2014, 04:33 AM
I voted pepper (OC) spray and "other." As noted, check the legality of these things in your (her) area. I voted other as well as OC, because she should have a backup plan in case the OC doesn't work, or can't be deployed.

Best of all would be a good woman's self defense class that has a heavy focus on situational awareness as well as easy to use and remember techniques for disabling/slowing an attacker enough to run away.

Also, drilling into her head to never, never go anywhere with anybody, no matter what level of force they're using. Pointing a gun at you and ordering you into a vehicle? RUN. This last part is paramount, as being removed to a secondary location is often fatal.

oss117
July 21, 2014, 06:49 AM
You also need to check local laws. Both pepper sprays and stun guns are restricted to adult use in many jurisdictions.


Ditto for the regulations at whatever school she is attending.

Madcap_Magician
July 21, 2014, 10:59 AM
OC spray is The Answer here.

1. You can get it for cheap, any quality brand will be under $20 for a canister, versus $300+ for a TASER.
2. In general, defensive sprays are legally less problematic for minors. You could even take them to my high school, although they were supposed to be left with the office during school hours. This point may vary widely based on local law.
3. Defensive sprays give you multiple shots and require less training to use effectively.
4. While TASERS are nearly 100 percent effective for the cycle duration, IIRC OC spray is 97%+ effective for much longer.

Sunray
July 21, 2014, 04:45 PM
You also need to check local laws, first. A junior high school is highly unlikely to allow any weapon on the school grounds. As mentioned, it's also possible that her age will make having a weapon of any kind illegal.
A small can of regular hair spray or spray deodorant is neither illegal or limited to big kids. Just as bad when sprayed into eyes too.

RustyShackelford
July 23, 2014, 03:00 AM
As noted, Id look at the local laws/ordinances/school SOPs. It wouldn't be good if a young girl(14/15/16) got expelled over a "dangerous" weapon. :rolleyes:
If, and I mean if she can lawfully carry a weapon on her(concealed), Id look into a good, powerful pepper spray(OC). Brands I like include Sabre Green Crossfire, Zarc Microspin Mk III or Mk IV, Mean Green(Fox Labs) or Cold Steel Inferno.
Buy a few water based training units too or get a extra OC spray she can practice. This is good so it's not a big surprise when she might need it.
I like OC units that can deploy from different angles or methods. This might be needed in a critical event. :cuss:
Zarc Intl brand calls it Full Axis(Vexor).

If she wants or can carry a stun gun/EDW, look into a Taser C2 model or the new Yellowjacket iPhone cell case. The Yellowjacket was co-invented by a US Army veteran to work with iPhones; 5/5S & 4/4S. It's powerful & can also be used as a battery charger. The prices went up I think for the new updated model but check the company website.

Rusty
www.galls.com www.copsplus.com www.qmuniforms.com www.coldsteel.com www.zarc.com

kBob
July 23, 2014, 09:29 AM
Pepper spray. Been tased though with an original taser using the wand function and not darts), been stungunned, been sprayed with CS and CN, Been in heavy CN and CS smoke as riot control and been sprayed with OC.

Of the choices I would go with OC, either straight up or with CS or CN and a dye.

In some areas the size of the spray ( amount of agent) matters for instance on local college campuses here while the small key chain sized OC is usually OK ( some do exceed the amount of agent allowed) the police belt size and the "bear sprays" are not.

Have yet to find anywhere I can not go with my stout stock cane..........

Edit: just noticed the Jr school daughter on the "ballot"

Can't imagine a jr high school allowing the carry of ANY of the devices polled. I recommend a decent small private school. Used to be a public school teacher and in my county as an adult teacher I could not bring any of those on campus. My kids are currently private schooled so I drive a 14 y/o truck and my wife 12 y/o car as payments on new ones would equal the monthly cost of the kids schools. You have to decide what is important........

-kBob

Deltaboy
July 23, 2014, 11:33 PM
I got my 16 year some pepper spray but we check it in every Sunday night since the school would blow a gastet if she got caught with it even in her car.

TimboKhan
July 24, 2014, 10:49 PM
Just to reinforce, "stun guns" are loud but they are about as effective as a slap to the face is. Tasers are good, "stun guns" are worthless.

Ranger Roberts
July 28, 2014, 11:49 AM
I voted pepper spray. You want to keep as much distance between yourself and the threat as possible. Most of the sprays that are currently on the market have a UV dye in them that, in theory, will help LEO's identify the threat/attacker.

herrwalther
July 28, 2014, 12:34 PM
I am not a big fan of stun guns as they require contact with the person you are trying to get away. If they are THAT close already, something has gone wrong in your own personal security plan. As such I voted for pepper spray/mace.

TimboKhan
July 29, 2014, 01:04 AM
Herrwalther, stun guns will not incapicitate an attacker at any point along the spectrum of an attack. I absolutely hate getting shocked, but they wouldn't stop me from stealing a handful of peanuts if I really wanted peanuts. Stun guns are absolutely worthless as a defense option in my opinion.

Bobson
July 29, 2014, 02:28 AM
Also important to note that a TASER isn't available to the general public. Given that, along with the fact that "stun guns" are garbage (which I agree with), OC [Oleoresin Capsaicin, commonly known as pepper spray] is the only real choice for a non-lethal SD tool. OC/Pepper Spray is not "Mace." Mace is a different product, and compares to OC the way a "stun gun" compares to a TASER. Read: Mace is garbage.

Encourage her to have someone spray her with the OC before she carries it, so that she knows what to expect if she ever has to use it. Elsewhere on THR, there are detailed explanations of how this should be done. Search for my name and "OC" if you want; there may be others, but I know I've described it in detail on at least one occasion.

ugaarguy
July 29, 2014, 05:04 AM
Also important to note that a TASER isn't available to the general public.
Actually TASER offers consumer versions of the X26 and X2, they have the consumer only C2, and they still offer the original M26 to consumers but they don't even market the M26 to LE any longer.

The differences between the consumer X26c and LE X26e are:
X26C vs. X26 (Law Enforcement Model)
The TASER X26C was modeled after the law enforcement TASER X26, and utilizes the same proven technology. One trigger pull of the X26C initiates a 10-second cycle, while the LE model runs for 5 seconds. Moreover, the X26C trigger can be pulled several times to create a 30-second cycle. The user can then deploy the X26C, quickly squeeze the trigger 2 additional times to create a 30-second cycle (3 x 10 second cycle = 30 seconds), place the X26C on the ground, and depart the scene while the X26C safely disables the assailant. Cycle times on both models may be interrupted by placing the safey lever in the "safe" position. Per second, the X26E (law enforcement) delivers 19 pulses of electricity into the target. Since the X26C is capable of delivering a much longer cycle, these pulses range from 19 per second for the first 5 seconds, then drop down to 10 for any remaining time. In addition, civilians may only purchase air cartridges with a 15-foot range, while law enforcement agencies have access to cartridges with ranges up to 35'. Finally, only the X26E model is capable of recording & downloading device deployment data. This feature helps protect law enforcement agencies from claims of excessive use-of-force, and also provides management a powerful tool to track usage patterns and prevent misuse. The firing data on the X26C is not recorded, and cannot be downloaded.
So, the consumer model actually has a longer cycle, and doesn't record any firing data. The cartridges are fully compatible between both versions, but TASER will only sell cartridges with probe leads longer than 15 feet to LE.

OC/Pepper Spray is not "Mace." Mace is a different product, and compares to OC the way a "stun gun" compares to a TASER. Read: Mace is garbage.
Again, No. From previously in the thread:
Mace is a brand name, but back in the 80s or so it was also a phenacyl chloride-based spray. Far as I know phenacyl chloride mace has been discontinued in favor of pepper spray (oleoresin capsicum-based, or "OC"). The Mace company now sells pepper spray with the "Mace" logo on it, so there seems to be a persistent misconception that it's a different chemical altogether.
Phenacyl Chloride is CN tear gas. The Mace brand sells both OC only sprays and an OC/CN gas mix with UV marking dye under their "Triple Action" line. Similarly Sabre sells a OC/CS tear gas mix with UV marking dye under their "Advanced 3 in 1 Formula" line, formerly known as "Sabre Blue". Sabre still sells their OC only spray under their "Sabre Red" line.
Yes, OC hurts much worse than CN or CS tear gas, but tear gas is still pretty rough. The combination of OC with CN or CS is logically sound. You have two different irritants to work on two different receptor sets. If someone is conditioned to one substance or less prone to the effects of it then the other is still present to provide the desired effect.

herrwalther
July 29, 2014, 11:20 AM
Herrwalther, stun guns will not incapicitate an attacker at any point along the spectrum of an attack. I absolutely hate getting shocked, but they wouldn't stop me from stealing a handful of peanuts if I really wanted peanuts. Stun guns are absolutely worthless as a defense option in my opinion.

Never said a stun gun will incapacitate an attacker. I have been tased, stun gunned, pepper sprayed, and gassed with CS. I know what I can fight through and what has me on the floor.

Bobson
July 29, 2014, 02:22 PM
ugaarguy, thanks for the corrections.

One thing to note, and it probably isn't significant, but is still worth knowing, is that while a person cannot build up resistance to OC (but can be genetically immune to OC), a person can build immunity to tear gas through repeated exposure (but nobody is genetically immune to it). So both have limitations, and even using both together in a combined formula isn't guaranteed to have the desired effect on any given person.

I have been tased, stun gunned, pepper sprayed, and gassed with CS. I know what I can fight through and what has me on the floor.
Good things to know, and are extremely helpful in promoting the benefits of various tools designed for SD. I've been pepper sprayed, gassed with CS several times, and hit with a stun gun - but never tased. A stun gun is the easiest thing to fight through, followed closely by OC, IME. CS is fairly debilitating until it's cleared from the lungs, which can take up to a few minutes. From what I've heard, very few people can fight through a TASER; but I don't know if that's actually true.

glistam
July 29, 2014, 02:36 PM
From what I've heard, very few people can fight through a TASER; but I don't know if that's actually true.
It is true but it is exceptionally rare, and has to do with the person's body chemistry and neurological structure rather than their pain tolerance. You cannot develop it, you have to more or less be born with those traits.

More often than not, the true cause of a failed stop with a TASER is an incomplete circuit. That is, one of the probes failed to hit, or hit weakly and then detached.

Sentryau2
July 29, 2014, 03:26 PM
Ive been tased by a police issue taser and it sucks pretty bad, drops you to the ground cant do anything for a moment, but civi ones are expensive and I'm not sure how they compare to police issue ones. I've also been pepper sprayed, much much worse. Can't see, cant breath (right in the eyes/up the nose is most effective) it burns so your eyes water and that makes it worse so you breath harder and it burns your lungs and makes you cough and choke and double over from the gagging that sets in. I tried everything to get it off, water, alcohol, flour, baby wipes, milk, the thing that worked best was pure dawn dishwashing liquid and ice cold water with a sponge and it still continued to burn afterwards for around a half hour.

Stun guns are toys compared to tasers or quality pepper spray. They will NOT stop someone from attacking you. Atleast none of the ones ive ever had.

EDIT: I've been sprayed by two types of pepper spray, saber red from an upward angle (my female friend is a good 12inches shorter than I) and by police issue pepper spray by a retired state trooper. Both sucked, both about equally effective but the red saber was a bit more horrible because of the angle (its like snorting fire ants or red hot coals)

ugaarguy
July 29, 2014, 07:12 PM
Bobson, thank you for the correction on genetic immunity vs tolerance built from exposure and vice-versa on the OC vs CN/CS.

IlikeSA
July 30, 2014, 12:02 AM
I voted OC because of her age, coupled with the effectiveness of OC on a variety of dangers, like dogs. Of the OC, I would recommend the stream.

col_temp
July 30, 2014, 03:07 AM
Thanks all. This has been an interesting discussion to follow.
Hope others searching will pick up some useful tips as well.
Will pass on the info!

Big Shrek
August 1, 2014, 12:51 PM
CS is of limited use in cultures that heavily use Crab Boil on a weekly basis...
However, the marking dye kind does help LEO's get the bad guy!

Another downside is reflection...squirted a guy once and it ricocheted off his face and got the two guys
standing next to/slightly behind him as well...that can be a good thing, or you just squirted your help too...
in any case, after using CS, whatever room you are in will be uninhabitable to most folks for a couple hours...

Martial Arts, Martial Arts, Martial Arts...even Tai Chi helps!!

Madcap_Magician
August 1, 2014, 02:31 PM
Another reminder to make sure you check the legality in your state. IIRC in mine you have to be 16 to carry defensive sprays, and in the state next door, spray containing marking dye is illegal. Go figure.

Deltaboy
August 3, 2014, 03:45 PM
Pepper spray give me better reach than the Stun gun.

Charlie Horse
August 4, 2014, 03:00 AM
I went with other. As noted above, the "stun gun" is a threat, not so much a weapon. Actual tasers are more effective, but you have to hit them with both probes, and they do spread out. They say not to aim for the torso because of the risk of cardiac issues. (A subject was tased once, and his rhythm was converted TO normal sinus according to a news story, but I digress)

OC spray is good, but there are those who do not respond. High threshold for pain, and believe it or not, diet have something to do with it. ASs someone said above, the combination sprays are the best bet here. OC + CN + dye is what you want, preferably with the nonflammable propellant in case they end up being tased later...

I'm carrying Freeze +P 2K3 which is easily obtained. You can look at the specs for it and its siblings here. http://www.aerko.com/aerosol-specs/ We just changed over to it from and older spray, and had to be sprayed all over again. It will put the average man out of action for 15-30 minutes. Very nasty.

Of course, check your local laws before buys so you stay out of trouble...

RustyShackelford
August 4, 2014, 12:45 PM
I wouldn't consider the Taser C2 super expensive, it retails for $299.00 with $399.00 for the "gold" package. :rolleyes:
The C2 offers a bright white light & red laser aiming unit too. It does not have a "gun" shape & is available in bright colors/patterns to avoid mistakes or confusion with a firearm. Strange as it sounds, some sworn LE officers & security guards have drawn guns rather than EDWs by mistake. :eek:
I like the C2 red style. I've seen a few security officers carrying C2s, :D . The charge runs approx 30sec. The Taser spreads tiny ID tags like glitter all over the subject too.
The larger X2 model is pricey for the general public. :uhoh: About $1200.00 USD. It can be used on multiple subjects which is good but it's not as practical as the C2. Taser Intl sold the X3 for a few years but cut it. It was meant for large(3 or more aggressors) but the weapon looked & felt like a hair dryer. :rolleyes:
A medium size PD near me issued X3s but I think they converted to the Taser LE version of the X2. My city got the upgraded X26 model for the patrol officers(700+).
If I were a sworn LE officer or federal agent, Id get a X2. It's larger than a X26 but can deal with multiple subjects. Taser redid the internal design & power output too. :D

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