[Buckskinner]

My goal is to beat a buddy with a custom bolt jobber. He's got more money than me, and I'm jealous!:neener:

I'd like to change the trigger and the stock on the 91. My rifle has a nice Zeiss Diavari C 3-9x36 on factory claw mount, so for now I'll keep this glass. It'll do about 1.5" in primitive conditions, which means me on a rickety platform, off the bipod.

Where can I find trigger smith's, and maybe the PSG stock?

Anybody have any luck at very long range (600-1000 yds) with milsurp ammo? If not, are you rollin' your own? Share a recipe?

[Destructo6]

Williams Trigger Specialties can do a pretty good job on the stock trigger pack. You have the choice of a set trigger or "standard."

http://www.williamstriggers.com/

[Sactown]

A custom bolt jobber vs. semi-auto? Uh..I think the odds may be stacked against you. You might wanna wander over to http://www.HKPro.com/ and see if they have any suggestions. No offense, but I'd bet on the custom bolt jobber.

[Triad]

You can find the PSG1 or MSG90 stocks here. (http://www.hkpro.com/spchk91parts.htm)
Theyalso have the PSG trigger pack if you're interested.

[Gordon]

I would only put on a buttstock recoil pad of correct length for you and get a Williams set trigger job. You just send them the trigger group. I wouldn't put on any wierd stock or use anything but factory heavy bipod. You allready have the best scope and mount! If you have a good barrel (and most commercial prebans were if not shot out) you should get MOA or slightly less with Federal 168grain Match ammo. I wouldnt ruin the fine HK91 trying to make it a bolt action target gun, the trigger and match ammo should do it. Also when you shoot against buddy use sand bags properly not bipod and hold em an squeeze em it's the shooter 90% of time! My Zeiss scoped, Williams triggered HK91 shoots 1" or less with Federal 168 match and my reloads.

[dude]

easy!!

...trade it in on a nice Rem 700 Bull or even a Savage 10T, drop some $$$ on good glass, get LOTS of practice with good ammo and your ready to compete aginst your friend. Other than that, it will be impossible to force your fine battle rifle to sucessfully do a job it was never intended to do.

[Buckskinner]

Thanks. It seems like I could get a good bolt gun for what the upgrades to the 91 would cost. I'll figure it out.

[tex_n_cal]

Learn to shoot well, and learn to handload. Of the myriad combos of bullets & powder that can be stuffed into a .308 case, there's bound to be one that makes your Aych und Kaye purr.:)

[swingset]

The most obvious answer (and cheapest one) is to feed it some different match ammo first. You may find, for whatever reasons, that a certain brand just makes everything "work", and may even find you can hang with a bolt gun on a given day.

I have a $400 FAL that absolutely tack-drives when fed with Federal Match 168grain. Who knows why, but with anything else, it's not that special.

Just my tooth hence.

[Handy]

The trigger job will cost between $50 and $150. I suggest the top end William's set trigger. It's excellent.

Get into reloading and buy some Sierra bullets.

You can put a cheek rest on your rifle for $30. You don't need a $400 stock.


My SAR-3/8 (a Greek 91) shoots 1" groups with Sierra soft points. With load development and match HPs, they should go smaller.

The hk91 is an inherently accurate self loader. The barrel is free floating and there is no gas system to affect bore pressure. It will keep up with most bolt hunting rifles.

All you NEED to start are some better loads and patience with the stock trigger.

[hksw]

Just curious, what is your buddy shooting? And what loads (factory or hand)?

[Buckskinner]

with custom bbl, and match ammo. Though he usually reloads. Fancy stock and super duper scope. That's all I know for now.

[SteyrAUG]

Handy, how is your HK91 barrel free floated?

Buckskinner, no matter what you do, even a PSG1 will be beaten by a Rem 700 bolt gun. You may wish to keep your 91 original, it is pretty accurate as is.

But if you want a tack driver, you are looking at a bolt gun. If you "must" have a semi auto look into a high grade FAL or a NM M1A (preferrably a early one).

[Kobun]

Get yourself one of the cheek rests that come with the HK SL-8.
You should probably get one at a HK dealer, and aditional spacers also (You'll need one spacer minimum).
Screw this onto your 91 stock, and you get your head at the right hight for your scope. Cheap and easy. :D
And, consider hand loaded ammo, and maby single load this directly into the chamber...
Many things that can be done.
Good luck!
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=43854

[Buckskinner]

I'm just wondering what you could do with this rifle at that range...And I'd like to compete with this rifle...

Steyr Aug~ I've been reading other posts (mostly on TFL archives) that dispute your claims of M1A or FAL being more accurate than the HK91. In fact, and mostly because I want to, I think the "HK91 is the most accurate self loader" crowd have more telling points...

So add a cheek piece, eh? What are the options for different cheek pieces?

I've already emailed Williams re: trigger work.

Other than high end ammo, and .308 dies, I won't do anything else to my cute little safe queen...

Did I mention her name is "precioussss"?

[MLC]

I'd imagine you'de get better groups from a shorter lighter bullet like a Palma 155 grainer. The HK 91 has a thin barrel so take your time between shots. Over on HKPRO Forums (http://boards.hkpro.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi) , look for posts by F1reverb, he seemed to be the authority on benchrest shooting the the HK's. Consider that even HK themselves decided to opt with the heavier barrel, more rigid receiver, set trigger and improved stock on the PSG-1 to bring it closer to bolt action level of accuracy. Trigger improvement, quality ammo, consistent sight picture and consistent shooting position are the keys to shooting that rifle well.
And practice twice as much as your friend!!

[Buckskinner]

I'll check out the HK boards. One issue about practice, is I'm limited to my homemade 100 yd range. How about dry fire practice. Anything I can hurt by dry firing 50 times/day?

Who has used Williams trigger work before? Is there a turnaround time issue at all? Do they do other work not listed on their website?

[MLC]

Nothing wrong with a homemade hundred yard range.
Practice on reduced targets?

[SteyrAUG]

Buckskinner, here is the deal. I own all 3. The HK91, FAL and M1A. I also own the accurized versions, the MSG90, Match FAL and M1A NM. While not drmatically, the M1A and the FAL outshoot the 91. The same is true of the match grade versions.

The reason is this, the tolerances are tighter.

That said my HK91 is still usually my first pick out of the 3. The ergonomics in my opinion are superior to the FAL and M1A. Also the HK is not gas operated so it is far less succeptible to fouling and inherently more reliable. The HK remains dramatically accurate enough to work out to the limits of the .308 round effectively. It is simply just not as precise as a tighter FAL or M1A.

So of all 3 my HK is my favorite, it just won't outshoot the other two at distance. And you ain't gonna beat a bolt gun with it.

Here's a pic of one of my 91s with a Williams set trigger and german Zeiss Diavari C 3-9 scope.

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RgDiAgYTa3HMYLOhndPCoDngJbF87J5bM*WEMq1OffxiAiBdXRc2P7tXYNIRmfr2Hr76F!IUnOHUR1eddxmBInmFv0fi!rAQO4z0BmZu09M/100-0301.JPG

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RwDjAjgTXX*MYLOhndPCoBqm4ACWfC50Ox8mnshsheAkQk!glZQ7e6GZpihy5DXBw6QLA2O*9KiytVPY51!wpUzoOxMj8NekXLDuLJ6KQ!M/100-03030.JPG

[Handy]

SteyrAug,

If you take the handguard off YOUR rifle, you will note that the barrel is only touching the rest of the gun at the trunion. The handguard is attached to the cocking tube. The cocking tube is floating in the center hole of the sight tower. There is no hard mechanical connection between any of those parts and the barrel/sight assembly. Even less if you remove the cocking tube cap.

The tactical sling post IS attached to the barrel. If you want to use a sling for precise shooting, get a surplus wood forearm and put a swivel in that. You'll then be pulling against the cocking tube.

You put a Zeiss scope on a $50 B-Square mount? I'm not a total snob, but that is a bit of a mismatch.

Also, which tolerences are higher? Given the way a G3 works, the only tolerences that matter are the barrel and chamber. The bolt system automatically maintains headspace. Could you clarify?

Buckskinner,

No need to drill holes. E&L manufactoring makes a cheek rest which is held in place by the butt plate. There is another one that pops into the pin storage holes. Otherwise, get a $60 wood stock set (see forearm mod, above) and glue a nicely contoured wood cheek rest on and finish. Then you can switch from sniper to battle rifle by trading off the stock sets.


As for mechanical accuracy, I've never heard anyone claim a standard FAL is more accurate than any other .308 rifle battle. They aren't sloppy, but they are 2MOA guns, tops. DSArms makes custom versions that are 1MOA, but if we are talking basic military rifles, the 91 is definitely the most accurate of the three. Given the stocks and gas systems of the other two, there is no reason it shouldn't be. I've seen 1/2" groups out of SR9s. Only difference was the polygonal barrel. And I can do 1" with hunting bullets, not match. The mojo is in there.


No semiauto is going to "outshoot" a custom bolt gun with ammo made for it. There are things you can't do with ammo for Semis that you can in a bolt. Plus, chambers and bolts can be tighter because feeding isn't an issue. But comparing apples and apples, a field bolt and a field semi, the HK can accel.

So after you shoot your 3/4" groups and he shoots his 3/8" groups, stand up and put 20 rounds center mass at 50 yards in 8 seconds. Your rifle is the closest thing to a gun for all seasons that is made.

[SteyrAUG]

If you take the handguard off YOUR rifle, you will note that the barrel is only touching the rest of the gun at the trunion. The handguard is attached to the cocking tube. The cocking tube is floating in the center hole of the sight tower. There is no hard mechanical connection between any of those parts and the barrel/sight assembly. Even less if you remove the cocking tube cap.

The "barrel/sight assembly" is what I referred to and is most certainly a hard contact. The HK is therefore NOT free floated. Even the handguard does make "some" contact with the barrel (especially when the HK bipod is used) but it is probably negligable. But this is why the PSG1 has no front sight assembly.


You put a Zeiss scope on a $50 B-Square mount? I'm not a total snob, but that is a bit of a mismatch.

Yeah, did that years ago. Just one of my HK91s. And I only had so many ARMS mounts. The B Square is stable though. The fault is it does NOT have absolute return to zero. Since this is my "shooter" HK I used my Bsquare and never remove the mount. If you leave it on you have no problems. But if you take the optics on and off the B Square sucks and you want a ARMS mount or HK STANAG mount.

Also, which tolerences are higher? Given the way a G3 works, the only tolerences that matter are the barrel and chamber. The bolt system automatically maintains headspace. Could you clarify?

Bolt face/chamber interface. This combined with the way the HK flutes port debris directly onto the boltface. The roller bolt lockup is just NOT the same as the FAL bolt lockup. This is why larger rollers need to be installed over time with heavy use (especially in full auto). I love my HK too but the FAL is just more precise. But at the same time it is the tolerance of the HK rifle that make it more reliable than the FAL.

[Buckskinner]

So after you shoot your 3/4" groups and he shoots his 3/8" groups, stand up and put 20 rounds center mass at 50 yards in 8 seconds. Your rifle is the closest thing to a gun for all seasons that is made.

And that is what ultimately differentiates this contest.

I was speaking to my buddy today, and telling him about this thread, and what I was trying to do. He said "Shoot, you can borrow my rifle, and then see what's what!"

I'll check out the wood stock/ cheek rest situation, to keep my present gear intact.

[Handy]

SteyrAug,

I don't think I was clear, or you went and looked. The front sight is attached to the barrel, but the sight is NOT attached to or touching anything else. It only touches the barrel. A barrel is considered free even if it has a front sight. A "free floated" AR-15 also has a front sight attached to it's barrel, but the handguard does not touch either. Same as HK, but no gas tube.


My point about the bolt was that the relationship between the rollers and trunion is such that the rollers continue to pull the bolt forward against the chamber despite wear. It will continue to do this until trunion/locking piece wear is bad enough that bolt gap goes to zero. THEN, you replace the rollers and you'll get your headspace back. But until boltgap goes to zero, headspace remains identical. That's what boltgap is there for, to eat the wear and maintain headspace.

With a FAL, M14, M16, whatever, headspace increases with locking lug wear. From the first shot on, locking lug engagement wears down allowing the bolt to seat further back, increasing headspace. The more shots fired, the bigger the headspace until it is excessive. The HK does not do this, the headspace and bolt face position is always identical. This is true of all blowback firearms.

[SteyrAUG]

Handy, the fronts site attaches to the barrel and attaches to the cocking tube. So there is no way you could consider it a free float. I have free floated rifles like the M40A1, the barrel touches nothing.

And HK vs. FAL the lockup on a FAL is tighter. I'm not saying the rolers don't lock in tight, I'm saying the FAL is "slightly" tigher.

The differences that affect long range accuracy (400m+) are usually slight. Even single loading rounds at these distances factors in. Obviously if a full vs. empty mag (or removed mag) is a factor then so is the front sight and the rollers.

[Handy]

The front sight DOES NOT ATTACH TO THE COCKING TUBE!!!!

Take your forearm off (so you can see). Now push against the cocking tube in any direction. You can get over 1/8" deflection before the cocking tube even touches the inside of the sight. They are not touching at all. Put the forearm back on-still nothing touching the barrel or sight!



As for the matter of the bolt, I don't think we share enough jargon for me to properly explain the headspace issue further.

[Destructo6]

I'm going to have to jump in and support Handy on the free-floated barrel thing.

HKs should have a 1mm gap x 360degrees from the cocking tube to the front sight assembly. At least, this is true for any HK-9x that has the tapered cocking tube.

Perhaps the straight tube does touch, but I don't believe any HK-91s were imported with the straight tube.

The wide forearm contacts the trunion/receiver at the back and the forearm hanger, attached to the cocking tube, at the front; it does not touch the barrel.

[SteyrAUG]

That is a pretty flimsy free float case but I will concede the technicality. To me free float is just that, like on a M40A1.

With the cocking tube cap inserted the cocking tube does make varying degrees of contact, suitable enough to create variations in barrel harmonics.

As for the headspace issue, I really did grasp what you said. However I still assert that the lockup on a FAL and M1A are more precise and produce greater accuracy.

[Handy]

Dude, it's not a technicality. LOOK AT YOUR GUN!! You can deflect the handguard in any direction with quite a bit of force without touching any part of the barrel. That's far more clearance than a free float bolt gun.

Is it that awful to be incorrect? Jeez.

[SteyrAUG]

Is it that awful to be incorrect? Jeez.

Yes, yes it is. :D

But I still don't think it qualifies as true "free float" and this is reinforced by the fact that HK Gmb doesn't denote it as free floated. In addition HK Gmb does denote the PSG1 barrel as free floated but there is no front sight assembly on that rifle.

[Handy]

What does qualify then? Besides having zero contact between the barrel and any other part, what does your definition of "free float" include?


Maybe HK doesn't bother emphasizing that their $1000 G3 is floated when they are trying to sell another, similar rifle for 10 times that.

[SteyrAUG]

Like I said, with the cocking tube cap inserted the front sight makes contact with some part of the cocking tube. While it is true there is "minimal play" it does NOT hover in space without ever making contact with the interior of the front sight.

Plain and simple it does. And more importantly the contact is random and variable. When the barrel heats the front sight likely makes contact with the other side of the interior of the cocking tube.

All this effects barrel harmonics and the influence is not constant or consistent. Therefore I do not (and neither does HK) consider it a free float barrel.

A free floated barrel has consistent harmonics.

And while floated AR15 barrels do have a front site, that front site does NOT make contact with other parts, especially variable contact.

IF the hk cocking tube truly floated in the center of the front sight without ever making contact, you would have a free float. It does NOT and you don't. Take off your cocking tube cap and look at it, it will likely be touching on of the interior sides. The cocking tube cap re inserted emphasis that contact.

[Handy]

Alright, you either don't own an HK rifle or a too damn lazy to look at one.

The tube cap doesn't go into the tube, it's fixed into the sight. The cocking tube does not go forward far enough in the sight to touch the cap. The cocking tube is nearly 1/4" smaller in outside diameter than the inside diameter of the sight hole. The do not even come close to touching.

One can grab the barrel in one hand and the forearm/cocking tube in the other not get one to touch the other with 10 or 15 lbs. force and several milimeters of deflection.

The standard for floated bolt rifles I've always heard was being able slide a dollar bill between barrel and forearm. The HK has enough clearance for $5 easy. It has MORE free float clearance than is considered normal.

Barrel harmonics. Unless the 91 has so much whip that it moves more than 1/8" off center, there is no way it can touch anything else on the rifle, spoiling the harmonics.

So, in essence, you are talking out of your bottom. Take your case over to HKPRO.com and get laughed at there, if you wish. Two of us have already tried to fix you, but you insist on embarrasing yourself further.

[hksw]

(Don't mind me, just looking for clarification.)

"And while floated AR15 barrels do have a front site, that front site does NOT make contact with other parts, especially variable contact."

But what about the gas tube?

[Handy]

Ron,

That is true, I merely omitted the gas tube in the interest of clarity. Free floated AR15s are not, no gas driven auto is completely free. But the AR gas tube is light and has some flexibility (it can slide in the receiver hole).

Given that, the HK rifles are probably the MOST free floated military arms around.

[SteyrAUG]

Handy, that is some funny stuff.

Like I said the cocking tube does not hover in the center of the sight, It is touching the a side (this is called contact) on every single one of my HK rifles.

I pointed this out earlier but you chose to overlook it.

With heat from sustained fire, I'd wager the front site moves and makes variable contact which changes the barrle harmonics.

I also pointed this out earlier but you chose to overlook it.

It does NOT have to be welded to be a contact.

But you wanna qualify it as a free float, go ahead. But it ain't. I've spent plenty of time on HKPro but that doesn't mean a damn thing.

[SteyrAUG]

Figured I'd end the dumb stuff now.

Here is a picture of one of my HKs that I probably don't own.

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0QwDeAukS0WW8i0LTJAkzYo3pJBzyiA5RxECqdYb3W93JxKbd3NvGgZtXPfNYL8jJvytK6M*eL4AlkQHoqNM*xpRHV5vkVTNhRglFAjwTN98/002hk.JPG

As anyone can see, and what I already knew and tried to explain, the cocking tube is NOT center in the front sight and makes CONTACT.

So, using your rule "The standard for floated bolt rifles I've always heard was being able slide a dollar bill between barrel and forearm" it is NOT free float. You cannot slide a single slip of paper into the tight wedge on the right side where CONTACT is made.

So your quote "The HK has enough clearance for $5 easy" is completely erronous.

Here is another picture of the CONTACT made to the front sight BY the cocking tube.

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0QwDYAugSkmUzEUFKqMZXUxOj6rkWCiGdNzjzZGUaACvgZc09I5o7UxMSuIpcLDVtXwYuSEkUlkDwITEprbgxtLZC1BqU5Yo5z3!rEQPYGT4/001hk.JPG

So, you are wrong. This rifle is NOT free float according to your definition. Your suggesting I don't own a HK or don't have enough HKPro time to be qualified to look and see and understand a HK91 is NOT free float has nothing to do with anything.

Please just deal with it.

[Destructo6]

That's the straight tube version I was talking about earlier. Most HK-91s have the tapered cocking tube that provides a millimeter or more of clearance.

BTW, when did that HK come into the US?

[Tamara]

Er, gosh, I just went to look at my IC-datecode '91 and dang if the tapered cocking tube is not only making contact, but it ain't centered in the front sight ass'y. Durn unrigid sheetmetal... :o

But that's okay, 'cause it's a new-tech uber-cool super-commando roller-locked German Iwannacoolgun that I paid more money for than any other gun I own, so I'll just pretend it's centered and not touching anything. ;)

[Handy]

Steyr,

I'm sorry, I didn't know HK ever imported that late '50s trash. If your rifle isn't a parts gun, it's a shame how your's is made. Maybe you could trade it for a later (good) one.

Here are the dimensions of the normal us imports:

The inside diameter of the center sight hole is .794"
The outside diameter of the TAPERED cocking tube is .667" (.127" clearance)

The cocking tube ends .355" before the end of the center front sight hole.
The cocking tube cap has a maximum insert depth of .305" (.050" clearance)

So, I am sorry. If you have a real HK, I am sorry I spoke for all the rifles, not knowing there were some early handicapped models. Please pardon rudeness. This does rather explain the misunderstanding.

Tamara,
HK will likely fix your bent rifle under warranty. Check with them. Mine isn't precisely centered, but is very close.

[Handy]

Oh, should have said.

There's no "technically" about it. Your rifle is not free floated in the slightest. No wonder you report better accuracy in other designs. Anyway, the free floated 91s are really accurate. I've been really impressed.

[SteyrAUG]

Handy, Tamaras cocking tube ain't bent. It is like 95% of all cocking tubes (in other words MAKING CONTACT) and NOT free floated.

Get over yourself dude.

But this will make you feel better. It is OBVIOUS you have one of those super rare ultra straight tapered cocking tubes that HK made specifically for special forces Navy Seal Delta dude weapon experts such as yourself.

The rest of us have crappy HKs with non free floating barrels. :rolleyes:

[Tamara]

Boy, are you one loyal HK fan.

You know, I don't even have an M1A, nor do I really have a desire for one, but it doesn't kill me to admit that, on average, the M1As I've shot over the years have been more accurate than the HK91s. So what? I didn't buy my '91 for benchrest shooting, and besides, the difference isn't enough to get worked up about.

It must be nice to have found a brand of pistols and rifles that are the absolute best at everything...
;)

[SteyrAUG]

Er, gosh, I just went to look at my IC-datecode '91 and dang if the tapered cocking tube is not only making contact, but it ain't centered in the front sight ***'y. Durn unrigid sheetmetal...

But that's okay, 'cause it's a new-tech uber-cool super-commando roller-locked German Iwannacoolgun that I paid more money for than any other gun I own, so I'll just pretend it's centered and not touching anything.

You must have one of them Hesse 91s like me. :D

Everyone knows ALL real HKs are free floated. Just ask Handy. :rolleyes:

[Tamara]

No, I'm supposed to send it to HK for them to fix, so I can then stick it carefully in my safe and hope it doesn't get knocked off-kilter again. :rolleyes: ;)

If I want to shoot sub-MOA, I'll go play with my No.1; I didn't buy this HK battle rifle to worry about such things... ;)

[Handy]

Actually, I'm a terrible HK fan. I only have $900 in a preban Greek made POC. But its made like all the others I've seen.

I guess I have to apologize again. The first one didn't take.



I'm sorry.

[Handy]

Oh, and I'm not a Seal. I just fly them around sometimes.




Didn't want that hanging out there.

[Tamara]

I guess I have to apologize again. The first one didn't take.

Oh, please... When'd you get all sensitive?

You say HK's are the most accurate militree semiautos, I say M1As tend to out shoot 'em. So we disagree. Wah.

Go gloat over the fact that your "Greek POC" has better QC than my Oberndorf gun and be happy, okay? ;) :p

[SteyrAUG]

Tamara, how do you think I feel? I just pulled my 4 MP5s apart and damn if they ain't NON free floated either. I am so bummed. My HKs are all crap. :D

Handy can you post a pic of your Greek POC? I'm not familar with them. The only Greek ones I know about are the Hellenic Arms.

[Handy]

I'm sorry. POC is an American abreviation for Piece Of Crap.

My particular piece was, in fact, made by Hellenic Arms. Imported June of 1990, an 8 stamped over the 3, then some savvy soul quickly put a pistol grip on it before 922(r) kicked in.

It looks identical to every HK91 I've seen (maybe the paint is a slightly different tone). It wears green furniture.

If only the stock would accept the MSG90 buffer I picked up, all would be perfect in Whosville.

[SteyrAUG]

Handy, you "might" already know this.

But just in case, the true Sar 8 (not that CAI monstrocity currently available) as well as the Sar 3 are considered true HKs. Being a HK contract rifle they are hardly a POC. Of ALL the HK Contract Factories Hellenic Arms is one of the best (sometimes MKE and POF don't quite hold to true spec).

But even they don't free float their barrels. :neener:

By the way I sent you a PM, did you get it?

Edittted to add: Buy a complete MSG90 buttstock and just trade. Problem solved.

[Handy]

Yeah, I'm up on HK geneology. I would bet the Iranian models weren't all that perfect either. Greek, British and Portuguese seem to have gotten it right.

And it floats. Remarkably.



I already replied.