Shot the Boberg XR45......Wow!


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Rembrandt
July 16, 2014, 11:00 PM
Coworker got his Boberg XR45 yesterday, went to the range today and tried it out. This was the first shipment of the new 45's. Predict this will soon be the benchmark by which compact 45's will be measured. Been carrying a XR9S for over a year and couldn't more pleased.....but the 45 is simply Wow! Extremely accurate, full mag cut the center right out of the target.

230 grain ball ammo, empty case mouths were a little bent up. Performance is outstanding....Arne Boberg has hit a home run with his 45.

http://www.bobergarms.com/

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0166/4838/products/45_Standard_Prod_large.jpg?v=1394599154

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Go For Broke
July 16, 2014, 11:20 PM
What's the price on these things. I seem to recall rather high for such a low capacity handgun.

How do you plan to employ it?

Based on a cost benefit analysis, Is it worth it?

I heard a guy say something about a similar gun, he said, "An answer in search of a question".

NormH3
July 16, 2014, 11:22 PM
What price would you put on your life or your loved one's?

Jorg Nysgerrig
July 16, 2014, 11:25 PM
The Boberg is an interesting piece. I'd like to shoot one. The "bull pup" type configuration seems like a good idea on paper.

I heard a guy say something about a similar gun, he said, "An answer in search of a question".

Which means, "I don't understand the use case or appeal, therefore I think no one else will either." It's pretty much the laziest comment someone can make as a form of dismissal.

What price would you put on your life or your loved one's?
And this is the laziest comment when it comes to discussing price. Are you really implying that those who carry a $500 Glock only think the lives of their families are worth $500? :rolleyes:

Tell me, NormH3, how much have you spent on all your equipment and training. Is that how much your loved ones' lives are worth?

barnbwt
July 17, 2014, 12:02 AM
Good to hear; I'd assumed the bullet pull-out issues would only get worse as bullet weight went up (more recoil, and more bullet momentum to yank it out the case).

That gun is supposedly rated past Rowland or some crazy nonsense --not that you'd want to actually shoot that!

It's pretty much the laziest comment someone can make as a form of dismissal.
That line is also one of my personal peeves. Modern American consumers expect every new product to immediately solve every issue of the past, as well as so many in the present, that to deny its immediate superiority-in-every-way to the predecessor, you'd have to be an idiot. All this just to consider it as an "unproven alternative." Just yuck.

"What price would you put on your life or your loved one's? You can't put a price on your life or your loved one's. Always, never, forget that" --Paraphrasing Sterling Archer

I take less issue with this laziness, since it's more intended to diffuse arguments with cheapskates who tend to resent guns more expensive than they are personally willing to shell out. The former is meant to start fights by denigrating an otherwise-functional alternative under discussion.

The 9mm models are just under/just over a grand. Smaller is more expensive, here. As far as cost/benefit, the gun is well-past the point of inflection where you get less for less money ;) (it's got a smaller side-profile than a Rohrbaugh, but is heavier/fatter and doesn't cost 2000$ like those, if you can find them, or require frequent spring changes)

TCB

JohnKSa
July 17, 2014, 12:25 AM
It's pretty much the laziest comment someone can make as a form of dismissal.It's basically the same argument as: "If it saves one life then ...<fill in the blank>."

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=513305

Onward Allusion
July 17, 2014, 12:45 AM
NormH3
What price would you put on your life or your loved one's?

There should be a Sticky on what gets a user banned for life from THR. On top of that list should be the above quote.

chuckpro
July 17, 2014, 01:20 AM
I like the idea of this firearm just because it is out of the box thinking. Everyone is looking for something different in a firearm. I have several that i like but they all compromise in one way or another.


Rembrandt
How is the trigger? And it looks like it has a high bore axis, does the 45 Jump around lot, it may just be the picture i have never fired one.

Gtscotty
July 17, 2014, 01:25 AM
It's pretty much the laziest comment someone can make as a form of dismissal.

I'm glad other folks think this as well. I feel like every day, someone on the interwebs is telling me that *insert gun or cartridge they don't like* is just an answer to a question no one asked.... Each time I read that phrase my blood pressure spikes a littler higher.

As an aside, I remember when the Boberg designer first came on THR talking about this pistol he was designing. It's cool to see an idea flow from inception all the way to commercialization and product line expansion.

Praxidike
July 17, 2014, 02:54 AM
nice.. It would be nice if they could mass produce and get it in the $600-$700, so it would be a simi-affordable competitor to Sigs and Karhs. It'd fly off the self.

RX-178
July 17, 2014, 04:15 AM
I've never fired one, but in regards to chuckpro's questions, I can comment on just the photograph, the bore axis looks significantly LOWER than my Walther PPS, which is on my desk right now, opposite my mouse. The PPS has a good deal more frame above the trigger, if that makes any sense as a description?

Also from my experience shooting and loading .45 cartridges, I would anticipate that there would be more recoil than the 9mm, but the recoil will be gentler...... if /that/ makes any sense?

9mm and especially .40 in pocket guns (my PPS is in .40 BTW) tend to just hit you really hard, and then it's over with, and in the case of the .40, it actually feels like it's trying to twist your arm a little bit in the process. With .45, you kind of have a moment to process it as it happens, you can feel the recoil start, and then feel it stop. And now I'm REALLY not sure if I'm making any sense.

I'm really hoping Rembrandt gives a better answer than mine soon.

Rembrandt
July 17, 2014, 08:02 AM
The recoil doesn't appear to be unreasonable, perhaps because it's manageable. By that I mean the gun grips into the web of your hand so well, combined with the lower rear bore axis, it strikes you as having positive control. Not at all like some compacts that you "re-grip" after each round so you can get the next shot off.

We purposely shot both the 45 and 9mm Bobergs side by side for a recoil comparison. The 45 recoil was a bit more as we expected, but pleasantly and fully controllable.

The whole recoil/control issue found on many compact guns has been eliminated by Arne's unique design. A design that combines two things, grips the frame deeper into the web of your hand and putting the barrel further back.

Overall size is slightly larger than the 9mm Boberg, which was to be expected, but far smaller than other compact 45's. If you're a 45 fan, you'll love this gun.

NormH3
July 17, 2014, 09:09 AM
I think you read more into my comment than is there. It was a simple question and never meant to offend anyone that purchases a cheaper firearm. Perhaps I should have worded it differently.

jrdolall
July 17, 2014, 09:16 AM
When does the KelTec version come out for those of us who prefer the more affordable options?

kokapelli
July 17, 2014, 03:24 PM
Hickok45 has a pretty good review on the XR9-S at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckyUmldwiDo

MedWheeler
July 17, 2014, 04:42 PM
NormH3 quotes from the book of tired, old, beat-down cliches with this:

What price would you put on your life or your loved one's?

I never found the true algorithm behind this. So, you spend 10,000 dollars on your gun. Is that all your life and your family is worth?

What are you driving them around in? The latest European performance sedan, complete with bulletproof shielding, fire-suppression systems, and an interior that turns into a big fluffy cushion in the even of a collision? (And you're trading it in for a new one every year?)

I've heard your poor assertion spill from the mouths of some people at gun shows who arrived at them in some pretty questionable rides. This is despite the fact that every one of them is at greater risk of harm from a traffic incident than as a result of a random violent crime.

He asked about the price for a reason. Perhaps he wanted to know if he should trade his XDs-45 for one, even though the XDs can do the same job for likely less than half the price.

Edit: I see you (Norm) got Jorg Nysgerrig fired up as well before I even got to the thread. He demonstrated in post 4.

oneounceload
July 17, 2014, 05:01 PM
nice.. It would be nice if they could mass produce and get it in the $600-$700, so it would be a simi-affordable competitor to Sigs and Karhs. It'd fly off the self.

Why? Like Rohrbaugh, he sells every one he can make at his asking price

A design that combines two things, grips the frame deeper into the web of your hand and putting the barrel further back.

With that frame design, is it, in your opinion, better reserved then for a belt holster as opposed to a pocket one?

1KPerDay
July 17, 2014, 05:37 PM
Very cool. I'd love to try one out.

silicosys4
July 17, 2014, 06:51 PM
If they fixed the bullet pulling issue so the gun runs all types of ammo, and not just manufacturer approved brands, I'm interested.

Rembrandt
July 17, 2014, 07:31 PM
With that frame design, is it, in your opinion, better reserved then for a belt holster as opposed to a pocket one?

The 45's larger size would require some pretty big pockets, maybe cargo pants. I think the 9mm is a better option for pocket carry, although I carry in an OWB.

One other side note, after I left the range my co-worker continued giving the Boberg a workout using some cheap ammo. He did experience case-bullet separation a couple times. This is when the round is being pulled from the magazine, the bullet begins to slide out of the case. Boberg recommends using better quality ammo with a crimp. One could probably take any uncrimped ammo and run it through a crimping die. It may be more pronounced in the 45 because the heavier mass of the bullet and slide. I consider that more an ammo issue than a problem with the gun.

george burns
July 17, 2014, 07:35 PM
Until it's in use for a year or two, I would stay far away. If the bullet is pulled from that case it is hard to clear it for another shot. This is something that was happening with these guns a few months ago when I read a review from one of the regular reviewers, "may have been Guns and Ammo". No way I would chance that yet, money is a relative thing, I read about a French watchmaker who is the rage these days, his watches are 2 million dollars each, he makes a cheap line at $690,000.00, he will only make 10 of that model this tear, the tennis player, "Nadal" has one, does that mean his time is more valuable?
I would not carry any gun for protection unless it had "street time" on it for at least 2 years, we know nothing about how this gun reacts to being dropped or roughed up in a scuffle. Take your time with important decisions.

ATLDave
July 17, 2014, 08:11 PM
That gun would be the end of my left thumb!

DT Guy
July 17, 2014, 08:19 PM
So if you bought a Boberg, ran it with the ammo it likes, and got 10,000 rounds through it without an issue, you'd want to wait two years to carry it?

Rokay....


Larry

barnbwt
July 18, 2014, 12:10 AM
Okay, I spoke too soon; "answer in search of a...blah blah blah" is not my biggest peeve, in comparison to "If they'd just I [I]might be interested." It's not dismissive like the first, but it is even more dishonest; framing the requirement for success beyond reasonable parameters is a cowardly way to avoid admitting it is a quality product that rivals the choice you made (people are really defensive about their CCW choices, and actually tend to resent having to make choices between good options)

Show me a single gun anywhere close to that size that runs "all factory ammo reliably." At least Boberg is kind and honest enough to maintain a list of known safe ammo, so you don't have to find out on your own (like practically every other brand). The list is also a lot longer than most people think when they hear "factory approved." This isn't like the Seecamp which can only shoot that one load; it's practically every cartridge whose maker bothers to crimp it properly.

As to cost, the gun is made on a very small scale by fifth-axis machining. To those not in the know, that prices it slightly lower than cave-dwelling Druids with stones and files. You are for sure not paying for a name or advertising (not compared to a 1000$ 1911, anyway). And while I keep blowing my gun budget before I think to do so, I am dead-set on buying one of these because of the almost completely unique blend of entrepreneurialism, clever design, quality workmanship, forthright factory service, owner/designer involvement with customers, and obscurity that make for an incredibly rewarding experience with a firearm and manufacturer.

"If they made the gun better than the one I have in every way, for less money, I might be interested once it has as many years' experience as my current choice will have by then"

TCB

I read about a French watchmaker who is the rage these days, his watches are 2 million dollars each, he makes a cheap line at $690,000.00, he will only make 10 of that model this tear, the tennis player, "Nadal" has one, does that mean his time is more valuable?
I guarantee that Nadal's time is worth more than mine, quite possibly by 4-or-so orders of magnitude befitting such a watch :D

TCB

kokapelli
July 18, 2014, 12:14 AM
So far I haven't found a brand that does not work in my PM9 or my LC9.

george burns
July 18, 2014, 11:44 AM
Any gun that cannot fire all types of ammo, is going to likely develop problems down the road. I would wait for those problems to fully surface prior to carrying if and finding that after 6 months it strips the bullets from the case. I tend to stay away from unproven designs when my life is involved. I don't know what "real life" is going to do to the components of that weapon, Springs, claws etc. In a year we will see. Most writers, and reviewers who tested the gun did not run out and buy one. They all agreed that time will tell. I will wait for some more respected people in the industry put their stamp on it, as I won't have the time or inclination to torture test it myself.
Most also felt that the gun was overpriced and would likely out price itself. How do you clear a jam with that gun? There is not enough street time on it as of now, maybe down the road.
I did get the notification several months ago, having been on the pre sale list, and found it interesting, but that's as far as I would go at this time.
Another "tell" is that most hard to get guns are sold out on Buds, the Bomberg is always available, which means that they aren't selling, probably due to price. Once you break the Glass ceiling at a thousand dollars, and head towards 1,500.00, you are dealing with "gun people" more than the general public. I don't see people who know guns, leaning in this direction yet. You can pick up a Colt defender or a Kimber for less money and have a gun with a track record and a ton of accessories , sights, holsters, grips, lasers, etc.

Cooldill
July 18, 2014, 11:58 AM
And this is the laziest comment when it comes to discussing price. Are you really implying that those who carry a $500 Glock only think the lives of their families are worth $500?

Tell me, NormH3, how much have you spent on all your equipment and training. Is that how much your loved ones' lives are worth?


+1

I think the Boberg is an interesting design, but I can't see it replacing my Glock. It doesn't have near the same record of reliability. I'll give it some time so it can prove itself in the field. But the comment about "how much is your families life worth?" is just silly. As if they'd be any safer by buying the Boberg versus a less expensive but proven design by Glock et al.

Still, it's a nifty design and I think it's a cool gun. I'd love to shoot one some time!

460Kodiak
July 18, 2014, 12:06 PM
I think the Boberg is an interesting design, but I can't see it replacing my Glock. It doesn't have near the same record of reliability. I'll give it some time so it can prove itself in the field. But the comment about "how much is your families life worth?" is just silly. As if they'd be any safer by buying the Boberg versus a less expensive but proven design by Glock et al.


I agree. I would simply replace Glock with XDs in my case.

G'dale Mike
July 18, 2014, 12:39 PM
Does the proximity of the trigger guard to the end of the barrel concern anyone? I think kind of weird, but first thought was with a 2 handed grip, under high anxiety circumstances, could a finger be placed perilously close to the business end of the firearm? I guess that would be a reflection of poor training , but,,,

460Kodiak
July 18, 2014, 01:15 PM
Does the proximity of the trigger guard to the end of the barrel concern anyone?

Yes, but

I guess that would be a reflection of poor training

You answered your own question.

ljnowell
July 18, 2014, 01:26 PM
The bullet pull issue kills it for me. As a reloader I appreciate that the 45 acp head spaces on the case mouth. As such you should only be crimping that case so much. Any more than .469" is excessive. Just how much crimp does this gun need?

Any 45acp that can't shoot hardball is junk, it doesn't matter who manufactures it or how much it costs.

JohnBT
July 18, 2014, 03:11 PM
There's always a cheap old Rohrbaugh 9 for the folks who can't afford a Boberg. :)

I'd like to thank Mr. Boberg for giving the price conscious among us a big old fat new target to complain about. Seven years of people harping on Rohrbaugh was enough and now it's over. Yay.

John... now I'm the owner of a budget 9mm. Whew. What's that worth?

1KPerDay
July 18, 2014, 03:47 PM
I don't really have a problem with it being ammo-specific. It's a very specific pistol with a very specific purpose. There are other pistols that have been developed around a specific round... Seecamp springs to mind.

Heck, even my .22 conversions have recommended/preferred ammo types and brands. As long as you run the recommended ammo, they run perfectly. Stray from the formula and you start having problems.

This isn't a cheap 1911 or a range toy. I imagine it would be fired pretty infrequently for practice.

Generally I'd prefer a more "general use" handgun that will run on anything I feed it, but in this case, the size limitation and the cool factor give it a pass.

JMNSHO

larryh1108
July 18, 2014, 09:13 PM
What price would you put on your life or your loved one's?

Lamest statement on gun forums.
People who post this are totally clueless and are just trying to be clever... and fail miserably.

barnbwt
July 19, 2014, 02:29 AM
http://community.bobergarms.com/m/discussion?id=2312567%3ATopic%3A38678
Literally the first result for "Boberg ammo list." Dozens of ammo types proven suitable, at all price points and weights. Total non-issue, that seems quite overblown.

"There's always a cheap old Rohrbaugh 9 for the folks who can't afford a Boberg"
Funny, Gunbroker has them quite a bit higher; $5k for 5 the "special forces" model (what special ops operating operators operate micro 9s?)

TCB

GBExpat
July 19, 2014, 08:17 AM
Thank You for posting about your experience with the XR45-S, Rembrandt!

I hope that Mr. Boberg has continued great success with his innovative firearms.

I would love to have one, but am one of the many folks that would only be willing to pay about half of the market price (assuming that to be ~$1000).

My XDs45 ($515 OTD) will just have to continue in its current role. :)

scramasax
July 19, 2014, 09:50 AM
I've been carrying ands shooting a Rohrbaugh for three years. Got 600 plus rounds through it with no malfunctions. Like many other small carry guns it is a compromise. I have no problem with changing the spring. The only issue I have had was with VZ grips. Not their fault. There were variations on the size of some of the internal parts that required fitting of the "pocket" inside the right grip panel on some guns.

The only valid complaint from some shooters was about recoil and muzzle blast. That is relative to the shooters experience. It doesn't bother me.

To get back on the subject at hand I have put in my order for a new .45 Boberg. Shot a 9mm and liked the way it shoots. Might even try to get a .460, I've been told it doesn't hurt to shoot but will get your attention.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Cheers,

ts

p.s. I don't use polymer guns.

snooperman
July 20, 2014, 08:48 AM
Even though the design of the Boberg is more complex than most pistols, It appears to be a "better mouse trap" for some people , and is selling at the asking price. For a small pocket 9 , I would rather have the much simpler design of the Rohrbaugh.

snooperman
July 20, 2014, 08:55 AM
That said, like Kokapelli, my PM9 shoots just fine without any problems from the major ammo companies too.

HexHead
July 20, 2014, 09:31 AM
I read about a French watchmaker who is the rage these days, his watches are 2 million dollars each, he makes a cheap line at $690,000.00, he will only make 10 of that model this tear, the tennis player, "Nadal" has one, does that mean his time is more valuable?


A guy I used to know on a watch forum had a great sig line...."Life is too short to wear a cheap watch."

larryh1108
July 20, 2014, 10:57 AM
...."Life is too short to wear a cheap watch."

I guess the time is better than on a Timex?

Tirod
July 20, 2014, 11:02 AM
Any gun that cannot fire all types of ammo, is going to likely develop problems down the road.

Which is exactly what has happened to most military designs when the gunsmiths start playing with them, then the public starts loading up whatever cheap junk gets on the market.

This is another one of those sayings that really shouldn't be uttered. There is some truth to it, but not from the assumptions made. Guns are designed largely to fire one round - not 15 or 20. Military guns are designed to fire one specific,carefully controlled, and non optional issue cartridge - maybe two - and they are more alike than different. The military does it that way because the recoil or gas action is tuned specifically to it, and it alone. That makes it highly reliable with that ammo.

Now, drop the grain weight 30% or add that much more power and ANY gun won't be working in it's intended dynamic envelope. When the auto shotgun makers were confronted with this, they had to come up with some ingenious self compensating gas check valves to use every available bit of power from a light bird load, but bleed off the excess from the magnums.

A pistol simply cannot do it. A large pistol can tolerate it more, but, the smaller you make it, the harder it is to keep the action working at the extremes.

So, expecting only the "good" guns to do it is really fantasy. The good guns are the ones tuned to work with the maximum reliability with their round - it's a much safer system with less mean failures per thousand. Forcing the gun to keep cycling with all the wrong ammo is consumerist fantasy. In self defense you don't go out loaded with white box, and training with it is actually a luxury. Nice if you can, but no always feasible. What would be a better solution would be reloading ammo built to full spec so you train the way you fight.

If it's a hard shooter better to get used to it than discover that under stress, with no extensive experience at all, because low powered fodder was cycled thru it 90% of the time.

Beats "Sarge, cross level that ammo and make sure everyone gets a box of that Boxmart ammo, too. I don't want to hear any complaints of favoritism when the next attack starts."

Riiight. Goes to why the military owns their own ammo factory. Not Happening. Same for the LEO's, extensive testing means they get 1 - one - uno type of issue ammo, that's it, it's been vetted and you get used to it and how it handles. Not whatever Purchasing could scrounge up from a trip around the city grabbing any .40 they could find.

"Services were held for the slain LEO today after the major gunfight last week that erupted at the bank. The officers death was forecast by the city when he drew the short straw getting imported Eastern European ammunition from stocks at the beginning of shift. His fellow officers were rumored to have all given him their regards before the gunfight broke out."

If anything, gun writers stack up alternating layers of light and heavy rounds, quality and junk, just to see where the middle ground lays. Poor performance isn't a sudden surprise in the review, it's exactly how it malfunctions that is being researched. That is does is anticipated - note that - it's deliberate and sought after.

The makers tell us the same things. It's the consumer public that is cluelessly demanding that the gun needs to shoot whatever they jam in the magazine. Be advised, anyone who is ordering their men into combat with the risk of death imminent doesn't allow it to happen.

What is your standard?

Anyway, the Boberg is an interest device. I'd like to see it in a .380. It could be an interesting competitor to the Bondhus or Stinger Liberator in the tiny gun class. A rotating barrel, magazine extracting action with no follower in the mag, loaded "backwards," just shows the ingenuity of man in making mechanical devices. Like the pump action AR, you can make a law, but you can't force us to give up.

george burns
July 20, 2014, 11:40 AM
Well you guys who bought one, please let the rest of us know, how they fair a year from now so that we can decide on weather we want one also.

Hyrule
July 20, 2014, 04:14 PM
ugly as hell but i've always seen glowing reviews about the 9mm. i would love to shoot one myself at some point

Theohazard
July 20, 2014, 04:33 PM
That gun would be the end of my left thumb!
That's my thought too. I use a typical thumbs-forward grip, and with my Shield my left thumb is about 1/4" to 1/2" from the muzzle. Judging from the picture, it looks like my thumb would extend beyond the muzzle of a Boberg. I doubt I'd ever manage to actually shoot my left thumb, but I still don't want my thumb being exposed to muzzle blast.

Otherwise, the Boberg design seems pretty cool to me. I'm not sure it will ever be more than a niche design (to me, the advantage of a shorter gun seems offset by being ammo-sensitive), but it's a fascinating idea and its nice to see a company willing to deviate from the more traditional handgun designs.

PabloJ
July 20, 2014, 04:36 PM
I looked over like new second hand 9x19 piece at LGS. I would much rather have .45 S&W CS than this contraption. The gun was made to very high standard, but I rather carry something more proven to save my ...

LightningMan
July 20, 2014, 09:30 PM
I briefly had a XRS-9, but it wouldn't function right, from the day I got it. Had bullets getting pulled, and I'm not talking my plated reloads which Boberg has said not to use, but factory Speer Gold Dots. Although this was not the deal breaker as I could re-crimp my ammunition to handle the recoil yanking effect, but the issue I had was much more of concern to me. That concern was that at times while shooting, I would have a click instead of what should have been a bang. With a double strike capability I'd just pull the trigger again, but there has to be a round in the chamber to fire first. I thought the gun had a failure to feed or failure to strip out anouther round, but that was not the case. For what ever reason the next round up would somehow eject with the spent casing. I contacted Boberg and they sent a shipping tag to check/repair whatever was supposed to be wrong. About 2 weeks later I got it back, but it still wasn't fixed, still throwing out live rounds with empties. So back it goes, but after having a talk with Arne, with me having second thoughts on using this as my primary carry gun, because even if it came back with the issue resolved, in the back of my mind I would still have doubt about the reliabilty of this pistol. Anyway, I was offered a full refund and took it, which I thank him for that as he stands behind his product. My regret is that I wish this pistol had worked out for me as I really liked the look, the feel, and I could shoot it more accurately that any of my small framed pistols. LM
FWIW I have not heard of anyone else that had this issue, so it could have been rare case.

MagnumDweeb
July 20, 2014, 09:43 PM
Remington's R51 failed it looks like. Boberg's products seem to be holding up well in the market place. The price to me isn't really competitive with other products like Springfield, Ruger, Taurus, and Smith and Wesson.

I'm personally looking at the Bersa BP9cc as my next 9mm pocket pistol.

GBExpat
July 20, 2014, 11:04 PM
Had bullets getting pulled, and I'm not talking my plated reloads which Boberg has said not to use, but factory Speer Gold Dots.:confused: Aren't Gold Dots "plated" bullets?

larryh1108
July 20, 2014, 11:25 PM
I think the word "reloads" was what he was referring to....

barnbwt
July 21, 2014, 12:31 AM
Known Incompatible: Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P (1 separation in 85 rounds)
Right there in black and white. Did you check the site before buying ammo (you know, since there's no need to blindly test in this case), or was the list not compiled/complete then? I've seen numerous people complain about Speer GD in my brief research; it seems to be a widely known issue. I don't see how using a known problem-child in the gun when plenty of other alternatives exist is entirely logical. I guess I understand the psych aspect of not trusting a gun, but every firearm has a certain rate of failure, and a high one when subjected to stimuli outside its design. In the case of the Boberg crimp issue, it is at least easy to understand and counteract.

TCB

gun_with_a_view
July 21, 2014, 12:35 AM
The ninemm long model is a compact, concealable handgun that retains a full four-inch barrel. It is also exceptionally light at 18.5 oz. unloaded. This appears to a sea change in traditional handgun design. If it works. A few more reviews like LightningMan's and it's all over.

The 45, on the other hand, looks like it's been castrated from five inches down to barely nothing. Might as well spit the bullets downrange.

alienbogey
July 21, 2014, 01:12 AM
Any gun that cannot fire all types of ammo, is going to likely develop problems down the road.

:rolleyes:

I guess that means that Glocks, to pick just one example, are likely to develop problems down the road, because IIRC Glock recommends against shooting lead bullets through their firearms. Therefore Glocks cannot fire all types of ammo, so I guess Glocks are likely to develop problems down the road?

I have an early XR9S, with a serial in the 100's. The first day I took it to the range I took along a mixed bag of every different 9mm round I had. It yanked the bullet out of two rounds of one load from one brand. I don't run that brand/load through my Boberg any more. Simple.

My reloads had a few bullets yanked, so I adjusted my seater die to a tighter crimp and none have been yanked since. Simple.

My defense ammunition for it is on the "approved" list, and it has never once been yanked. Simple.

By all means, if it's too much trouble to buy ammunition from a long list of proven-to-work ammunition, and too much trouble to not buy cheap ammo on the short doesn't-work list, then don't purchase a Boberg.

And if, to avoid "likely troubles down the road", you demand that your pistol function flawlessly with every box of ammunition in that caliber ever made, then don't buy a Boberg.

Yes, I think that the Boberg ammo "issue" is overblown. :banghead:

Certainly at its price point and with it's unique features the Boberg is not for everyoneónor is it for mostóbut for those willing to put in a modest amount of care in feeding it, and a modest amount of time in learning the weapon's manual of arms, in return they get an innovatively designed and superbly built pistol that fills a niche very well.

OcelotZ3
July 21, 2014, 01:17 AM
A few more reviews like LightningMan's and it's all over.


Well, he ran ammo that is in on the list of problem ammo... Certainly if every owner ran ammo on the "known bad" list then people won't buy them.

I had problems with Blazer early on and it went onto the list shortly after. It only took one round for me to figure out it was bad and switch to others. Mine is SN #37 and it has been great.

barnbwt
July 21, 2014, 01:23 AM
Good point about the lead bullets in the hex rifled pistol barrels. Lots of people gnashed and wept about that being a 'deal breaker' and yet in practice it is a complete non-issue. Another foible worth mentioning is that a push-out design pistol isn't exactly immune to bullet setback; something worth remembering for people who use the loose crimped rounds that have issues in the Boberg. They might be moving around in your guns, too, and creating unsafe pressure spikes instead of a jam ;)

TCB

GBExpat
July 21, 2014, 07:45 AM
I think the word "reloads" was what he was referring to....Aaaahhhhh ... missed that ... thanks. :o

Walt Sherrill
July 21, 2014, 12:44 PM
Why? Like Rohrbaugh, he sells every one he can make at his asking price

It's a good business question.

Henry Ford probably could have sold his early cars for a higher asking price and still sell every one he made, but felt there was far more profit to be had by selling them at a lower price point. That mean he had to invent the production line that allowed a lower cost.

Maybe that was the point of asking about mass production?

george burns
July 21, 2014, 05:52 PM
My 30S is 20 ozs and holds 11 rounds, and will shoot lead, "if I wanted to". What makes it worth 2x as much? You aren't going to pocket carry it, so what's the allure? Also being my 2nd 30 in 20 years, it has never failed to fire, clean, dirty, wet, or upside down.

oneounceload
July 21, 2014, 06:05 PM
Henry Ford probably could have sold his early cars for a higher asking price and still sell every one he made, but felt there was far more profit to be had by selling them at a lower price point. That mean he had to invent the production line that allowed a lower cost.

Don't confuse COST with PRICE. Making them quicker and more cheaply might mean more profit, not necessarily a lower selling price point. Something as unique as this would also seem to require a lot more handwork - most of the quality small pistols do - so it might just remain one that will be out of some folks' price range.

Maybe he prefers the Ferrari business model over the Ford - determine how many the market can bear and build one less - that way there is always a demand and the price remains high.

george burns
July 21, 2014, 06:34 PM
Let me tell you about Ferrari's, I owned one. It was the worse piece of junk of any car I have owned, Unless you had a Ferrari mechanic with you when driving. Not only did it break down the first night I had it, it had to be flat bedded into NYC from Long Island.
My good friend had the Mondieal and I had the 308, both were a disaster. His leaked every time it rained.
I imagine they are better now, but doubt they are made to actually be driven more than occasionally, I don't think I put 3000 miles on it, before trading it on a Porsche, of which I must say are great automobiles.

farm23
July 21, 2014, 07:50 PM
I would like to see Boberg be successful but at this time if I were to get another 45 it probably be a Glock 30S. I congratulate Boberg on telling the public what will work in their guns but I may not be able to find that ammo. With time Boberg may work thru their issues but at least they tell you up front what to expect.

Rembrandt
July 21, 2014, 08:11 PM
I don't see the bullet separation issue ever being resolved....the Boberg would have to be redesigned as a "cartridge pusher" rather than "cartridge puller". All the side benefits of less recoil, longer barrel, and smaller carry would be lost.

The Bobergs "pulling concept" has been around for over a hundred years beginning with Hiram Maxim's first machine gun. Didn't see the military poo-poo the design, the solution was quite simple, crimp the rounds......problem goes away.

I've collected vast quantities of guns over the years, but the Boberg is the most refreshing, innovative, and fun gun I've picked up in the last 20 years. Been carrying it for over a year now and love it.



george burns....we agree on the Ferrari 308, one of the most uncomfortable things I ever drove. How in the world Tom Seleck ever managed to easily slide his 6 foot plus frame into the seat on "Magnum P.I." is beyond me. Car was not made for anyone over 6 foot tall.

grter
July 21, 2014, 08:36 PM
I like what I hear about it. A compact with a 3.75 inch barrel (almost a full 4 inches, that alone should help with muzzle blast and flip) that is accurate and reliable with the right ammo.

It's US made and the manufacturer backs up the product from what I have been reading here.

Best of all instead of putting out all the advertising hype that so many other manufacturers put (really I am quite sick of it) out they will tell you what works in it and what does not work.

It sounds like a quality American made product with significant improvements that solve some major issues with compact pistols.

It is not made in some foreign sweat shop staffed by poor exploited workers and definately not an option for bargain hunting cheapskates.

If you can not afford to buy it please don't take offense and I don't blame you for getting what you can that will function at a low price point.

It seems that some people here are trying to paint this gun as a lemon and I don't see that as the case from what I have been reading.

barnbwt
July 21, 2014, 08:49 PM
I congratulate Boberg on telling the public what will work in their guns but I may not be able to find that ammo.
I hate to be insistent, but did you look at the list? I wish any gun store or big box retailer near me had a fraction of the selection that has been thoroughly vetted. For 45acp, which I assume has not been thusly vetted as of yet (seeing as Boberg probably isn't blowing thousands of rounds just to satisfy picky customers once the gun has been shown to work with a number of common loads, same as every other maker) I can understand the argument.

But the 9mm has been out for 3 years now, with either rave reviews, or people that fell out of love with it (often for non-mechanical reasons; it is a unique/niche gun after all). Even if a few lemons or gremlins make it out, the owner's have had nothing but good things to say about the business and service side of the purchase. Still we have people saying the design itself is 'unproven,' and too big a risk to undertake unless priced the same as a Glock :rolleyes:. Crimp the bullet right, and it's a complete non-issue. Same thing for light strikes on hard primers (an issue in most striker fired guns).

Didn't see the military poo-poo the design, the solution was quite simple, crimp the rounds......problem goes away.
Good point; don't most belt-feds violently yank the rounds backward from their links? If it is not a far-fetched request to ask that people 'dress for the gun' or whatever, how is requiring they avoid a short list of bad ammo types a bridge too far? Whoever mentioned oblivious and petulant consumers was on to something. Boberg has consistently done everything right by us buyers, other than to copy the gun a few of us already own

I don't see the bullet separation issue ever being resolved
I don't either, but neither will magazine feed issues in push-throughs (I have to imagine the X9R design is at least slightly more resistant to feed lip/ramp geometry issues), nor dangerous bullet setback, for that matter.

Don't confuse COST with PRICE. Making them quicker and more cheaply might mean more profit, not necessarily a lower selling price point. Something as unique as this would also seem to require a lot more handwork - most of the quality small pistols do - so it might just remain one that will be out of some folks' price range.
Ya'll do realize the parts are (the only pistols'?) made on a 5-axis CNC machining center, right? The handgun is a compilation of aircraft parts, to put it simply, and there is a certain cost associated with this as opposed to a Browning slide/barrel that's been optimized for 100 years, now.

As far as the Ford; it was so cheap that it was, and is, still the second most expensive purchase a consumer will ever make by far ;). Much like cell phones, the true genius of Ford was in convincing the public to divert such a large portion of their earnings toward a new consumable item that was previously non-existent. Fords were also cheap due to extensive foreign/domestic sourcing of materials in 3rd world plantations/colonies, which was not terribly unlike the modern practice of outsourcing what you can to keep costs low; Ford couldn't have outsourced the manufacturing operations even if he'd tried. I also question how many of the workers outside the publicly-touted manufacturing operations had wages high enough to buy the vehicles as is always claimed (like the miners or tree-fellers far away in the backwoods US & South America). Lots of historical revision to the Ford mythology, same as every other famous tale ;)

TCB

george burns
July 21, 2014, 09:14 PM
I don't think that, I just don't think it should be touted as a primary self defense weapon. More of a unique gun to add, or not to a collection. It's not price as many here have much more expensive guns. It's weather it catches on, and if parts remain available if it doesn't.
Kind of like the Chiapa 357. They had high hopes for that gun also. Same price range, just didn't catch on. Let' wait and see.

grter
July 21, 2014, 10:04 PM
This is nothing like the Chiappa .357 at all there is no comparison.

From what I have read the XR45s and 9s would make excellent primary concealed carry self defense guns since they are smaller, have more power and accuracy than other guns that size whether top end brands or lower priced knockoffs of top end brands.

It looks like a very practicle firearm to me, a compact that can shoot as well as a medium to full size. I like the site radius too. It sure beats pissing in the wind with a short, stubby, flipping barrel (short, stubby flipping barrels are not bad with a lot of training but this one fixes that problem.)

barnbwt
July 21, 2014, 11:12 PM
More like the Mateba, if anything, but far, far more practical in every way (size not being one of them; that's a mere characteristic, for which we must have diversity in our weaponry)

TCB

aarondhgraham
July 23, 2014, 10:30 AM
And this is the laziest comment when it comes to discussing price. Are you really implying that those who carry a $500 Glock only think the lives of their families are worth $500?

I agree completely.

I don't want to ban people for saying this,,,
I just want them to know how inane (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inane?s=t) and insulting it is.

It implies that because I carry a $299.00 LCP,,,
I love my family less than someone who carries a $1,000.00 EMP.

Shame on you for posting that old saw,,,
Especially for posting it as if you knew something
It simply confirms your lack of any vestige of original thought.

Aarond

.

JohnBT
July 23, 2014, 11:07 AM
I don't find the phrase to be insulting. What I hear when I read it is, "Isn't your family worth every penny you feel like spending whether it's $1k or $2k or whatever?"

It's not nearly as silly a statement as is regularly seen from the people who insult anyone who dares to spend more than the bare minimum necessary to buy a reliable pistol. You know, "You could have gotta XYZ for a lot less and bought more ammo and had money left over."

It's not my fault - or maybe it actually is - that I can afford a gun that costs more than the bare minimum and all the ammo I want and have money left over. Maybe they need to get a part-time job or three and quit worrying how people spend their pocket change. :)

I always was a little thick-skinned, and now I'm retired and really don't care. It's just something to kick around.

John

P.S. - They'd really hate to see my restaurant tabs. Trendy food is worse than trendy guns. A quick Sunday brunch - 2 Mimosas and 2 bowls of fancy veggies with some bacon crumbles - with tax and tip was $46. Dinner this coming Saturday night for our 2nd date is going to be costly, but we've decided that trying every highly rated restaurant in town is going to be a good hobby. We have to eat while we talk about travel, right?

Tirod
July 23, 2014, 01:08 PM
The majority of the population is NOT getting better off. Wages have remained static over the last 15 years, while inflation has crept along. The average used car is now more than 10 years old. Our newest car is an '03. That same model is now $20,000.

When both adults are working and still making less than the national median age for one, in a metro that has 79% of the wage rate and 84% of the cost of living, then what you spend in cash is extremely important. It was said that in NYC the there is a millionaire for every 22 citizens. At my wage rates I would be living on the street - which is why nobody would take that little pay there.

Here, you get by, enjoy a fairly quiet community, stay away from the driveby's and gangbangers in their hoods, go to your kids ball games, and deal with the demographic that you either punch the clock or own the business/supervise/salaried manager. There is largely NO middle class and never has been in this town.

So the price of things is important, and why we have historically had gasoline 15% cheaper than the coasts. Tracphone sells very well here. A mobile booth made money hand over fist signing up free government sponsored cell phones. And management well knows they are a paying $2.00 less an hour compared to the next metro 60 miles away.

So, for those who enjoy their cash flow rich privileged status, it's not so nice down in the streets. Looking down from on high doesn't get you a realistic sense of what the market offers to the majority of your fellow citizens in a region. Which is why you have to really save up money to afford a $700 alloy framed SA auto pistol, compared to a polymer one for hundreds less. You are really deciding to forgo some other possession making that decision. It's not a matter of choosing which one first, it's a matter of choosing the only one.

It's the kind of thinking that a spoiled boomer hasn't encountered in their life. Which makes the reports of the Boberg interesting from an informational point of view, but only as entertainment. Maybe we can buy one used in a few years - if we want to forego something else, and that is only with the discretionary cash above and beyond the limited amount we have for daily living.

Which means people like me don't buy lunch out except maybe once a month as a luxury, brown bag it, maintain our own car including installing an engine and transmission to keep it running - being it's 15 years old and a new $20k vehicle is entirely out of the question. But, some of us pay cash not credit and own everything we have. Which is entirely different than handing over most of your paycheck to finance all the things you don't really own, just rent because none of it is actually paid for.

Push come to shove, in a downturn we already have our expenses in hand. It's those living on the margin who get their bubble burst, and who flee their debts for others to pay, abandoning most of their possessions to be thrown in the dumpster or sold in flea market booths.

I shop them and get pretty good bargains. So, continue the lifestyle, could you pick out a nice suit 46S in a decent grey pinstripe, I have my daughters wedding to attend in a few years. I'll only wear it once but for $45 something in Italian silk would be nice for her.

JohnBT
July 23, 2014, 05:53 PM
"The majority of the population is NOT getting better off."

Money doesn't seem to go as far as it did when I started working and saving in 1964, but there wasn't as much to buy back then. There have been a number of recessions along the way, so this is hardly the first bumpy patch economy-wise. Heck, when I bought my home - still in it - in 1980 I got a conventional 30-year mortgage with a rate of 12.75%. And that was with 25% down. It took half my monthly net to pay it. More than half if you count insurance.

For 37 years in a row I worked with individuals with disabilities to assist with education, training and job placement. I've met a lot of folks with little or no money and very few prospects, even in good years. I never made a great deal of money in any one year, but I retired almost 2 years ago and now I'm spending what's left while it's still worth something. :)

But the point was that I don't hear that phrase the way some folks hear it. I don't hear it as a put down.

John... I'm a long way from that row house in Baltimore. ;)

Walt Sherrill
July 23, 2014, 08:46 PM
Several folks have given their version. I'll give mine. To keep it a gun related topic, I can only say that the RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS may soon be lost to us, simply because many of us won't be able to afford guns or ammo... I know for a fact that I don't shoot nearly as much as I used to because of higher costs!! (I know, I know -- I should get reloading equipment...)

WWII finally got us out of the Depression, taught the Western world how to use industrial power to turn things around, and changed the world as we know it. Countries were CHANGED by the new technologies and having to interact with other cultures.

Subsequent wars, from Korea. to Vietnam, to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, have had mostly negative effects on our position in the world and the world's economies. We've spent $billions, killed hundreds of thousands, seen our own soldiers and sailors die, but achieved very little. I don't think those wars have made the world a better place.

My father did better than his father, and I did better than my father. My son, who is smart, hard working, and reasonably well-educated, probably won't live as well as I do when he reaches my age (unless he inherits some of our property -- if any is left when we die). It's hard to see HIS son (our grandson) doing much better, either, unless things change pretty dramatically over the next decade. We hope to help with our grandson's college expenses, and that may help him live a little better.

I worked my way through college -- it took me just about 5 years. I did it without family help (they really couldn't help) or student loans. The only financial aid I got was the GI Bill, which in the ate 1960's was only $100 a month, It didn't start until I was a rising Junior.

Working your way through college with no debit s almost impossible nowadays -- as college has become far too expensive for most people. State governments don't subsidize state schools much, and private colleges, even when well-endowed, seem to be more focused on their business models, sports machines, and new buildings, than educating their students. When kids go to college or technical training now they end up taking on debt that it takes a lifetime to repay. And while graduates and certificate/license holders will may MAKE higher wages, far too many students don't graduate, and then they've got debt and no offsetting benefits or higher income. Even those who do graduate may job hunt for a long time.

Things aren't as good as they used to be. Part of this is due to the economic downturn out of which we finally seem to be working our way. But the things that created that downturn -- society's powerful obsession with material wealth and short-term profits at any cost -- is still there and still leading us to what may be some very some dark places.

I'm wary that we are on the verge of seeing the American Dream slowly become the American Nightmare. For some it already has...

FlyingScot
July 23, 2014, 09:55 PM
...to find out what people thought who owned, had shot, or were considering buying. Instead mostly 3 pages of guessing, arguing semantics, etc.

Please - could someone with a shred of experience with this platform or informed opinion provide a bit of detail?

Walt Sherrill
July 23, 2014, 10:01 PM
These message chains often go astray. This one did.

I think you're going to find it hard to get much feedback on the gun in question, as it's quite rare, moderately expensive (which will keep it rare) and designed for an obviously unusual buyer.

All I can say is that it's an interesting design -- and might be more pleasant to shoot than you'd expect. Most "compact" .45s aren't.

Rembrandt
July 23, 2014, 10:44 PM
Walt is right, there are probably less than 100 of the 45's out right now. The one I got a chance to shoot was from the first 25 that had been shipped.

Talked to my co-worker today, who said he ran several boxes of 180 grain Winchester white box through it....no problems. It is one of the most pleasant and controllable compacts I've ever shot.

Here's a video/review of the XR45.....enjoy.

http://community.bobergarms.com/video/boberg-xr45-s-the-pocket-monster-pistol

JohnBT
July 24, 2014, 08:43 AM
"These message chains often go astray."

We're just killing time until somebody else buys one. We could let the thread sink down the page and out of sight, but what fun is that.

TimboKhan
July 24, 2014, 11:34 PM
What price would you put on your life or your loved one's?

About $450 plus mags for my XD, with an additional $1000.00 or so for my AR, and an Eotech. We are a family of four with a dog, so rounded up to $1500 total, thats about $300 per.

Thats not counting all the sweat equity in actually learning how to shoot accurately, nor the vast sums of money that have been spent buying ammo to shoot.

Remember that a gun is only as good as the person running it, regardless of its purchase price, fancy advertising or percieved awesomeness. One thing that annoys me about a large percentage of gunnies is the constant whining about triggers, or an ounce of weight here or there, or all these other nitpicky things. Those things are all great and desirable, but the hard reality as I see it is if the gun is reliable and capable or putting rounds consistently into a paper plate at fighting distances, stop whining and LEARN TO SHOOT. Neither a higher purchase price not a trip to the gunsmith can change the fundamental task of learning how to shoot accurately.

larryh1108
July 25, 2014, 08:10 AM
....but the hard reality as I see it is if the gun is reliable and capable or putting rounds consistently into a paper plate at fighting distances, stop whining and LEARN TO SHOOT. Neither a higher purchase price not a trip to the gunsmith can change the fundamental task of learning how to shoot accurately.

Amen, brother. Well said.

scramasax
July 25, 2014, 10:00 AM
:uhoh:I just love it when a thread gets so far from the title. I thought this was about a new gun and the experience of mature people who have already seen/shot it. It reminds me to not revisit certain threads after two pages. Most seem to deteriorate and stray from the point after that number of replies.

Cheers,

ts

CoalTrain49
July 25, 2014, 06:24 PM
Getting back to the OP, I think Mr. Boberg may be on to something here. Obviously someone put up enough capital to build a few and that can't be done for less than 1m. There have been lots of innovative pistols like the Glock. I'm not a fan but many people are. I think mostly the people who will buy this new gun won't be traditionalists like me but I think it will do pretty well in 9mm. Not so sure about 45 because of muzzle flip but time will tell. People like different, if they didn't Glock would have gone out of business with the 17.

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