Well, it finally happened (Saiga import ban)


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barnbwt
July 16, 2014, 11:02 PM
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/07/foghorn/breaking-obama-administration-bans-import-izhmash-kalashnikov-saiga-firearms/
Strange coincidence that the "new Russian sanctions" are being leveled to coincide with The Twit Offensive (Bloomberg-funded hit pieces), especially considering the dearth of tough-talk about the non-gun-related Ukraine affair.

So for now, Izhmash is now persona non grata. As is SIG, but from the opposite perspective (our government being shady). The ban on the Ruskies is indefinite.

Things to remember in 2016; "Will you reopen trade with Russia/China as far as sporting arms?"

Congrats, Saiganeers, you now own valuable Norinco's... Anybody know if Baikal is effected?

TCB

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Jlr2267
July 16, 2014, 11:05 PM
I am honestly shocked it took him this long. I suspect there are more import bans to come

Kynoch
July 16, 2014, 11:08 PM
This is extremely bad news. The firearms mentioned have not been used to commit crimes in the USA. The Saigas were gaining a real foothold in sports shooting -- 3Gun, etc. Lots of parts were being designed and made for them here in the US, etc.

Some companies like Tromix and Thunderbird are going to be devestated by this development...

Welding Rod
July 16, 2014, 11:13 PM
Are you saying Sigs are not going to be imported?

herrwalther
July 16, 2014, 11:27 PM
Thoughts on this developing article? Will this cause another banic of Russian imports?

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/07/foghorn/breaking-obama-administration-bans-import-izhmash-kalashnikov-saiga-firearms/#more-328770

Earlier today, the Department of Commerce announced new sanctions against Russian products and companies operating in the United States. Previous sanctions only tangentially impacted the import of cheap and reliable firearms from Russia into the United States, but now the Obama administration is specifically targeting the makers of Saiga rifles and shotguns, as well as other companies. From the Executive Order. . .

midland man
July 16, 2014, 11:32 PM
so is European armory corp, not going to be able to get in the guns from Russia, like the bakial's?

Sam1911
July 16, 2014, 11:32 PM
I'd say that if you wanted one, the day to buy is yesterday. Maybe this will finally be an EO we can get a President's replacement to overturn on our behalf. Time will tell.

barnbwt
July 16, 2014, 11:42 PM
I have to assume Baikal is also affected (unless only Ivhesk is being nailed? :confused:). I guess my MP161K 22LR got a lot more lucrative :rolleyes:

The deal with SIG was our idiot DOD selling them to Colombians when we knew darn well that the Germans don't allow the guns to be sold there. Think France selling S&W AR15's to Iranians or Syrians; we'd beat 'em over the head with ITAR so fast they'd do a flip. Now SIG is barred from exporting here indefinitely (luckily I think most of their stuff is made here, anymore)

This is extremely bad news. The firearms mentioned have not been used to commit crimes in the USA.
It is truly "first blood" as far as anti-gun maneuvers by this administration. Blocking already-long-delayed Garands and some sneaky semi-effective banking shenanigans along with lots of good 'ol demagogue-ing is something I expect and can live with. Playing with long-standing import rules (Saiga even had a treaty-negotiated exemption) is the closest thing to a nuclear option the Executive can pull and stay within the law. There is undoubtedly more to come, as our president seems determined to provoke a penultimate political conflict, of late (I expect a ban on all foreign parts kits from non-NATO states, stepped up ATF rulings on 80% products, manufacturers, and machine guns, and perhaps a ban or curtailing of gun imports from non-NATO countries. FNH/etc. are probably safe due to lobbying power through the military)

I suppose removing the sporting exemption on 12ga would be worse, but Biden wouldn't stand for that.

TCB

R.W.Dale
July 16, 2014, 11:42 PM
Some companies like Tromix and Thunderbird are going to be devestated by this development...


It doesn't have to be.

It's also an opportunity for domestic products to take advantage of the vacuum this creates.

barnbwt
July 16, 2014, 11:52 PM
Takin' all bets on how long it takes them to get to ammo manufacturers and the few other gun makers (apparently it is limited to the one maker, for now). Let's not miss an opportunity to drive this home as legitimate anti-gun actions by the administration this November. No more playing around with people who claim the anti-gun side of the aisle is 'secretly supportive' or 'unwilling' or such nonsense; "here's yer evi-dense."

TCB

Cooldill
July 16, 2014, 11:52 PM
I forsee an new American made detachable box magazine fed semi-automatic shotgun coming to market soon!

This is unfortunate news, the Saigas can be good guns.

lxd55
July 17, 2014, 12:27 AM
I do hope you guys saw this coming awhile back, with the, wh placing sanctions against the Russian gov, their banks, energy companies and arms manufacturers yoy will see a slowdown if not a stoppage of rifles from Russia. just saying.

Onmilo
July 17, 2014, 12:36 AM
You all know that American gun manufacturers applaud this kind of "Executive Order", Right??

seeker_two
July 17, 2014, 12:41 AM
It doesn't have to be.

It's also an opportunity for domestic products to take advantage of the vacuum this creates.

....at three times the price and with the quality control of the Remington R51.....

Sam Cade
July 17, 2014, 12:54 AM
I have to assume Baikal is also affected (unless only Ivhesk is being nailed? :confused:). Izmash and the Izhevsk mechanical plant merged in 2013.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalashnikov_Concern

dcarch
July 17, 2014, 01:25 AM
Glad I got one when I had the chance. Anyone know if the VEPRs are affected?

Kynoch
July 17, 2014, 01:52 AM
You all know that American gun manufacturers applaud this kind of "Executive Order", Right??

Very provocative question...

I wouldn't be surprised if Ruger finally knocked-off their version of the Kalashnikov once and for all.

Comrade Mike
July 17, 2014, 01:53 AM
I'm mad on a whole new level....

Krozi
July 17, 2014, 01:56 AM
Molot/Vepr's appear to fall under this ban as well.

Kynoch
July 17, 2014, 01:56 AM
The "work around" to continue to import AK-based guns shouldn't be all that tough. Izmash (actually the gov't) has licensed factories all over the world.

I'm sorta surprised that someone established in the US has no knocked-off an AK yet. Prices are already high enough to make it worthwhile I suspect.

R.W.Dale
July 17, 2014, 08:09 AM
....at three times the price and with the quality control of the Remington R51.....


Remington is a shining example of how NOT to run a gun company.


On a us made gun there's be no 922r "compliance" concerns.

cowpoke
July 17, 2014, 08:35 AM
Kynoch , the gun ban has nothing to do with crime !

HOOfan_1
July 17, 2014, 08:59 AM
Oh boy, unilateral moves going around the legislative branch...Thomas Jefferson is probably rolling in his grave


-He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
-He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
-For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

Mp7
July 17, 2014, 09:11 AM
Will Kel-Tec get into building AKs now? :-)

HOOfan_1
July 17, 2014, 09:14 AM
Will Kel-Tec get into building AKs now? :-)

They need to get into building their own designs first

PabloJ
July 17, 2014, 09:20 AM
Since I just bought little used Chinese AKM this ban does not affect me. Sure hope lacquered metal cased 7,62x39 from Russia remains available. While I can easily afford brass-cased ammo I find metal cased ammo easier to load into 30 round magazines. Apparently there is less friction between case and magazine "lips".

Ryanxia
July 17, 2014, 09:39 AM
EDIT: This was my original post in a new thread that got merged into this thread.

The last thing I would want to do is spread BS rumors but I've read this on 3 sources and was wondering if this is legit. If it's another bogus story my apologies for starting a thread on it.


According to a Presidential Executive Order issued Wednesday, the importation of AKs manufactured by the Kalashnikov Concern in Izhmash, Russia has been banned.

This includes the popular "Saiga" line of rifles and shotguns.


The sanctions were taken because of Russia's aggression toward the Ukraine. Russian banks and energy companies were also targeted.

To be clear, the executive order does not affect Izhmash or Saiga firearms already in this country. This is not an "assault weapons" ban. Instead, it halts the importation of firearms from the Izhmash-based firm.

The news was released without fanfare, when the U.S. Department of the Treasury's Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) added Kalashnikov Concern and other Russian businesses to its "Specially Designated Nationals" or "SDN" sanctions list.

Sources:
http://thegunwriter.blogs.heraldtribune.com/17287/breaking-import-of-kalashnikov-concern-aks-banned-by-executive-order/

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/07/foghorn/breaking-obama-administration-bans-import-izhmash-kalashnikov-saiga-firearms/

CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/16/politics/ukraine-russia-sanctions/index.html

TenDriver
July 17, 2014, 10:20 AM
It would appear as though they are under sanction.

Tirod
July 17, 2014, 10:24 AM
It's mostly legit

There are other threads started

It's not about Saiga alone, a lot of other Russian businesses were targeted.

It's a good example of just piggybacking on an existing issue - ie, it was cheap and easy to include. Which means the administration took that shot because they wouldn't have to answer for it as much and expend political capital.

That's because the President is rapidly being seen as "lame duck" and everyone realizes his days are numbered. He may still be POTUS but he's had his turn in office, things didn't get miraculously better, and a lot of folks don't have any hope for change now.

As for Saiga and other imports, there's going to have to be some fancy intermediary financial footwork to keep a third party from being able to get them and import them. A corporate change on their part to reinvent the maker as a new company could do it, but then another EO could wipe out the dodge. In any case it will likely jack up the prices, which was the major selling point of their firearms.

Adding another 25% to the price would just about kill sales, they aren't known as being high quality and it won't be justified in the marketplace. Which means the average buyer will have to look elsewhere for cheap battle rifles. That will create one unintended consequence as what they buy will become more demand for that product.

Imported firearms in this era are all targets of opportunity for the Administration, but it does go to them having to use a crisis to get any traction. NOTE CAREFULLY: The POTUS did NOT ban imports in a sweeping blanket EO and that means even they didn't see the legality or opportunity. Otherwise they could have done it a year ago and justified it.

What this shows is that things aren't as bad as some make out.

Ryanxia
July 17, 2014, 10:36 AM
Does this mean Mosin Nagants as well?

JustinJ
July 17, 2014, 10:43 AM
It seems that maintaining such a sanction will be difficult if/when the conflict with Ukraine blows over. It sucks we can't get Saigas but there is a valid reason for the sanctions. Lets try to look a little past our own immediate self interests.

Ryanxia
July 17, 2014, 10:45 AM
It seems that maintaining such a sanction will be difficult if/when the conflict with Ukraine blows over. It sucks we can't get Saigas but there is a valid reason for the sanctions. Lets try to look a little past our own immediate self interests.
Us meddling in everyone else's business is not something we all agree with. This is more than just self interest but that's a conversation for another forum.

Sam1911
July 17, 2014, 10:46 AM
Ha! LOL.

Let's try not to debate whether or not US foreign policy regarding Russia and Ukraine qualifies as any "valid reason" worthy of looking past one's own immediate self-interests.

That would certainly go far beyond our scope of discussions here at THR.

macadore
July 17, 2014, 10:54 AM
Maybe Saiga will build a plant in the U.S. like Glock and Beretta.

JustinJ
July 17, 2014, 10:57 AM
Us meddling in everyone else's business is not something we all agree with. This is more than just self interest but that's a conversation for another forum.

Well, we meddled when we convinced Ukraine to give up their nukes, which involved Russia signing a treaty promising to respect the sovereignty of Ukraine's territory, so its a little late for isolationism. That's actually beside the point in the context of the preceding comments of this thread. Agree with the mild act of sanctioning a country for violating the sovereignty of another or not, this conflict is about a bit more than Saiga rifles for americans.

Edit: Sorry, Sam, was typing when u posted.

Fishbed77
July 17, 2014, 11:01 AM
Adding another 25% to the price would just about kill sales, they aren't known as being high quality and it won't be justified in the marketplace.

Saiga and Vepr rifles and shotguns ARE known as being high-quality firearms.

JustinJ
July 17, 2014, 11:12 AM
Based on history, can anybody provide an educated guess to the likelihood of such a ban persisting once/if the conflict ends? Based on my recollection, such sanctions are generally not permanent except in rare cases such as Cuba.

Ryanxia
July 17, 2014, 11:14 AM
Based on history, can anybody provide an educated guess to the likelihood of such a ban persisting once/if the conflict ends? Based on my recollection, such sanctions are generally not permanent except in rare cases such as Cuba.
I don't know the politics behind the ban but the Norinco SKS ban is still in affect 20 years (guessing) later.

PabloJ
July 17, 2014, 11:17 AM
I don't know the politics behind the ban but the Norinco SKS ban is still in affect 20 years (guessing) later.
You can buy surplus Chinese & Soviet era SKS rifles that were packed in awful brownish grease. I see them sold for about $350.

mgmorden
July 17, 2014, 11:18 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of AK type clones aren't made in Russia anyways right? This sucks for the specific products made by Saiga, but I'm sure AK type guns will still be available for reasonable prices.

Sam1911
July 17, 2014, 11:23 AM
You can buy surplus Chinese & Soviet era SKS rifles that were packed in awful brownish grease. I see them sold for about $350.
You can buy and sell these guns that are already in country. You CANNOT import Chinese made AKs and SKSs any more. So instead of $89 Norinco SKSs, you have $400 Norinco SKSs. And the MAK-90 AK variants that everyone used to laugh at are considered premium.

Sam1911
July 17, 2014, 11:26 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of AK type clones aren't made in Russia anyways right? This sucks for the specific products made by Saiga, but I'm sure AK type guns will still be available for reasonable prices.
True. Lots of Romanian and Bulgarian guns, mostly being rebuilt (or modified) here to get around the 922(r) issue.

Saigas have been considered something rather special, in that you could get a new-made semi-auto AK that (with a little de-neutering) was just like a Russian factory-new model.

And of course they came out with the Saiga-12 and -20 shotgun versions as well, and those aren't available as parts-kit guns from the former soviet bloc states. ;)

wally
July 17, 2014, 12:19 PM
Sure hope lacquered metal cased 7,62x39 from Russia remains available.

Most of this that is currently coming in seems to be made in the Ukraine so its unlikely to be banned, although the current situation may have them rethink their export levels.

Ryanxia
July 17, 2014, 01:49 PM
Most of this that is currently coming in seems to be made in the Ukraine so its unlikely to be banned, although the current situation may have them rethink their export levels.
But Tula is the russian plant, so wouldn't tula brand be gone? (which is 95% of the 7.62x39 I see).

RX-178
July 17, 2014, 02:08 PM
Most of what is called 'Russian Ammo' is only called that because it is steel cased, berdan primed, which is the typical manufacturing process there.

Even TulAmmo specifically gets most of its product from Ukraine, and not Russia.

The only hiccup there would be that Kalashnikov Concern can't be involved in the import process to get the finished ammunition to the USA. This is at worst, a minor hiccup, even if it applies at all, since Kalashnikov Concern is specifically named in the EO, as opposed to 'all Russian weapons companies', so just replacing Kalashnikov Concern with a different export broker would circumvent the EO.

Cactus Jack Arizona
July 17, 2014, 02:33 PM
Barn, Baikal is under the umbrella of Kalashnikov Concern, the company listed in the EO 13662.

CoalTrain49
July 17, 2014, 02:36 PM
It's also an opportunity for domestic products to take advantage of the vacuum this creates.

:what: Now that's just plain un-american. :D

Orion8472
July 17, 2014, 02:37 PM
What are some scenarios, as a result of this? Will you see the Saiga rifles soar in prices? If that happened, would that mean that people WOULD actually pay the higher prices?

I have one that I converted a while back, but as AK rifles go, . . . . it isn't THAT high in quality. Not like an Arsenal. I think that if prices got up there, I'd just buy something better quality.

I guess my point is that, at this point, we shouldn't get caught up in any "hype" or "price increases by sellers pushing fear".

Currently, I'm not even in the market for an AK, so it really doesn't concern me much.

Cactus Jack Arizona
July 17, 2014, 02:49 PM
My signature reads as follows: “The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way, the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed.” — Adolf Hitler

What if we change the wording a bit by adding two small terms, firearms and guns.

The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their firearm freedom at a time, to erode gun rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way, the people will not see those gun rights and firearm freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed. Can anyone make a silver lining out of this? :rolleyes:

Think about it.

Kynoch
July 17, 2014, 03:47 PM
Will Kel-Tec get into building AKs now? :-)
Not Kel-Tec. Whether you like their products or no, KT is definitely an innovator and not a copier. Ruger is an excellent example of a copier and I really am surprised they haven't copied the AK. It might be because they are investment casting specialists and that doesn't lend well to making AK's, but I'm still surprised.

Robert
July 17, 2014, 04:46 PM
Folks lets stay on topic. THR is not "The Daily Birdcage Liner". Today's events, while tragic are not on topic for THR. Stick to the topic in the OP or this will be locked.

Orion8472
July 17, 2014, 05:08 PM
Thanks Robert.

So I will ask again:

What are some scenarios, as a result of this? Will you see the Saiga rifles soar in prices? If that happened, would that mean that people WOULD actually pay the higher prices?

I have one that I converted a while back, but as AK rifles go, . . . . it isn't THAT high in quality. Not like an Arsenal. I think that if prices got up there, I'd just buy something better quality.

I guess my point is that, at this point, we shouldn't get caught up in any "hype" or "price increases by sellers pushing fear".

Sam1911
July 17, 2014, 05:13 PM
Yes, Saiga prices certainly will rise. Prices only rise because people DO pay those prices. No retailer will sit on stock and hold his price firm if the stock isn't selling. So the price is set by what people DO pay. When the supply declines, eventually there's two guys who want that rifle and only one rifle to be had. The price rises because one guy will pay a little more than another guy to get one.

If you don't want or need an AK rifle of that sort, by all means don't get "caught up in any hype." That will help the prices stay low for the folks who do want to buy one of them while there are still a few left in country to purchase.

HOOfan_1
July 17, 2014, 05:13 PM
What are some scenarios, as a result of this? Will you see the Saiga rifles soar in prices? If that happened, would that mean that people WOULD actually pay the higher prices?


I think they certainly will go up in price.
I think some people may pay those prices, I think most will go find a cheaper AK built somewhere else...possibly already converted to the original configuration.

dogmush
July 17, 2014, 05:17 PM
Well. As I understand it the "Made In Russia" was most of the allure of Saigas. So you will see the price of those go up untill the people that have to have a Russian AK have one. More people will decide that a Romanian or Bulgarian AK is fine. If I had to guess Saiga's will stabalize at about what an Arsenal goes for now. That seems to be the market's "high end desirable AK" threshold.

I would expect to see the most effect on the Shotguns. Does anyone else make import an AK shotgun to the states? I would expect to see either a Europian company trying to fill that gap or a (more likely a bunch of small) American companies building one. It's not like an AK is that hard to build.

When a Russian AK shotgun is ~$700 people will buy that. Take that away and an American AK shotgun in the ~$800-$1000 range will sell I bet.

Second effect, in the meantime KSG's and UTS-15's will get more popular, because a Saiga-12 was one of their direct competitors in the "high-cap Shotgun" realm.

RX-178
July 17, 2014, 05:22 PM
Don't forget the MKA1919 and the other AR-15 styled shotguns now.

Orion8472
July 17, 2014, 05:24 PM
Already saw someone asking $800 for an unconverted 410 Saiga shotgun. :uhoh:

Ryanxia
July 17, 2014, 05:30 PM
I don't see the Saiga rifles getting very high but the Saiga12, Saiga20 & Saiga410 will creep up at some point. Might take a year but even if the Ukraine thing goes away I bet the firearms sanctions will stay.

There's really no competition to the Saiga12, the KSG and UTS are pumps for one and non mag fed for the other (and the KSG still has a pretty cheap feel to it, saw one crack already from regular range use). Being able to have a semi auto AK47 in a 12 gauge shotgun with a 20 round drum and a stack of 12 round stick mags lined up is pretty fun I can attest to. :D

dogmush
July 17, 2014, 05:37 PM
There's really no competition to the Saiga12, the KSG and UTS are pumps for one and non mag fed for the other (and the KSG still has a pretty cheap feel to it, saw one crack already from regular range use). Being able to have a semi auto AK47 in a 12 gauge shotgun with a 20 round drum and a stack of 12 round stick mags lined up is pretty fun I can attest to


Which is why I think some American companies will start making them soon. As soon as the price on the Russian guns hits what it would take to profitably sell some American ones, someone's going to try to make and sell one. Free market.

From the looks of gunbroker they'll hit that price point about noon on sunday.

DeepSouth
July 17, 2014, 05:40 PM
I'm surprised it took this long, and ammo will be next. I bought about 4k of Russian junk to feed my AK when we put the first sanctions on them.

Orion8472
July 17, 2014, 05:56 PM
Really, I don't like magazine fed shotguns. Saw a video with 10 rounds and it stuck down quite a ways. I'd rather have the Kel-tec setup, even if it is pump.

I have a 7.62x39 Saiga that I converted on my own and doubt I will sell it. . . . unless prices people are willing to pay for one gets crazy, then I may reconsider. But I really don't see that happening. People will just go Romanian.

Jackal
July 17, 2014, 06:04 PM
I have one that I converted a while back, but as AK rifles go, . . . . it isn't THAT high in quality. Not like an Arsenal.

Most stamped Arsenal AK's ARE Saiga's. They are the same rifle, Arsenal just converts them. You just pay an extra $500-$600 for them to do it.:banghead:

I just purchased a brand new Vepr .308 last month for $599 and last night ordered a Saiga .308 for $599 and a Saiga 12 Taktika for $799, I'm covered. :D

burk
July 17, 2014, 07:55 PM
There is already a Chinese copy of the Saiga shotgun, the Catamounts. I personally think they feel better, and are smoother out of the box than the Saiga's. They are also overpriced, although they do have a few more features like additional rail mounts. But they are over a grand at my local Gander, not a bargin by any means.

Kynoch
July 17, 2014, 08:24 PM
There's really no competition to the Saiga12, the KSG and UTS are pumps for one and non mag fed for the other (and the KSG still has a pretty cheap feel to it, saw one crack already from regular range use). Being able to have a semi auto AK47 in a 12 gauge shotgun with a 20 round drum and a stack of 12 round stick mags lined up is pretty fun I can attest to.

That's simply not true. There are other magazine-fed, semi-automatic shotguns on the market like the MKA-1919 and the BR-99. Out of the box many would suggest either is superior to the Saiga. Rebuilding new Saigas is what keeps companies like Tromix in business.

IN the right hands, shotguns with tube magazines are faster anyway:

Jerry Miculek vs. Clint Upchurch 3Gun Runs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUvSgpahEjQ)

dvdcrr
July 17, 2014, 08:43 PM
I guess if I didnt want a saiga before I sure wont want one now. I dont buy just to sell so no reason to buy now.

Jackal
July 17, 2014, 08:51 PM
I dont buy just to sell

I do, and as often as possible.:D Any money I dont have to sweat/work for is a win.

Sam Cade
July 17, 2014, 09:12 PM
The Kalashnikov Concern is 51% owned and controlled by the Russian Federation government. An oligarchic government that is hostile toward US American interests and the liberal democratic values that we in the west enjoy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/24/business/global/russia-sells-stake-in-maker-of-ak-47s.html?_r=0
In an interview in 2012, the former factory director, Maksim Kuzyuk, described sales in the United States as integral to the business. About 40 percent of the factory’s output went to gun buyers there, about the same number as bought by the Russian military.


I am perfectly fine with the current administration forbidding the importation of small arms from a hostile nation and hope the trade sanctions do as much damage as possible to the Kalashnikov Concern.

Jackal
July 17, 2014, 09:17 PM
I wonder what affect this will have on ammo supply from Russia. Will Barnaul, Tula, Vympel, etc will be banned from importation as well under these new sanctions? Very curious....May have to max a charge card...:banghead:

M1key
July 17, 2014, 09:31 PM
^^^same here

M

sappyg
July 17, 2014, 10:02 PM
So for now, Izhmash is now persona non grata. As is SIG, but from the opposite perspective (our government being shady). The ban on the Ruskies is indefinite.

Things to remember in 2016; "Will you reopen trade with Russia/China as far as sporting arms?"

Congrats, Saiganeers, you now own valuable Norinco's... Anybody know if Baikal is effected?

TCB

Though I may not speak to the OPs concerns directly.....

You should have seen this coming. If you wanted a Saiga and don't have one you've waited too long. They are now finite. There are plenty of AKs. Just not plenty of Saiga AK's rolling around now. They will not be coming to a neighborhood near you.

I'm thinking all AK prices just had an uptick. Ammo and mags will do the same. I don't plan on participating.

barnbwt
July 17, 2014, 10:43 PM
Hmm, I see people keep bringing up "geopolitical justification" even though I though this forum was not the place for that? ;) I can dance, if we really want to go down that road, but let's not, m'kay?

I've never felt so good for having no interest in AKs whatsoever :cool:. Almost as aloof as my detachment from ARs during 2013. But one of the double barrel 45-70's, combo guns, and even the Drozd auto-BB-gun (which I'd heard is actually pretty cool) were "somewhere" on my list 'o guns. And for darn sure we'll never see the MP412, now :cuss:

It is kinda funny to see this particular sanction imposed, considering the entire Saiga US export line probably only makes a few million dollars a year --hardly the lynchpin in Ivan's plans. I just hope this doesn't end with us bombing their factories like we did to the Yugo --now I'll never get those spare parts I need (and there's a lot of them :p)

"You should have seen this coming."
"Duh", and/or "hello?" But, but, they said he'd never pull this kind of thing through executive orders? :eek: Recent, repeated history would strongly indicate this is not the last effort on this front; the prez tends to pursue any line lacking opposition to excess. I honestly wouldn't put it past him to try removing sporting exemptions on cartridges by the end of this. They're pushing on 80%, armor piercing ammo, imports, parts kits, licensing... pretty much everything you don't need congressional approval for. Fancy that? :confused:

TCB

sappyg
July 17, 2014, 11:04 PM
[/I]=barnbwt;9548653]Hmm,

"You should have seen this coming."
"Duh", and/or "hello?" But, but, they said he'd never pull this kind of thing through executive orders?

TCB

I really don't put much stock in what they say anymore. I'm not even sure who they are. I don't recall any deal made with them or they.

macadore
July 17, 2014, 11:14 PM
The Kalashnikov Concern is 51% owned and controlled by the Russian Federation government. An oligarchic government that is hostile toward US American interests and the liberal democratic values that we in the west enjoy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/24/business/global/russia-sells-stake-in-maker-of-ak-47s.html?_r=0


I am perfectly fine with the current administration forbidding the importation of small arms from a hostile nation and hope the trade sanctions do as much damage as possible to the Kalashnikov Concern.
I'm with you Sam.

HOOfan_1
July 17, 2014, 11:24 PM
Do we import anything else from Russia? Has an executive order banned any imports that are not firearms?

sappyg
July 17, 2014, 11:47 PM
Do we import anything else from Russia? Has an executive order banned any imports that are not firearms?

Good question. Looks like their primary export is to the EU at ~45 percent. US makes up ~6 percent. Import from the US is negligible at best. There is absolutely nothing to these 'sanctions'. They are completely meaningless.

The EU has the problem. A big one. there is really nothing to see here.

Yet in the context of the OP. there is the issue of an alternate agenda perhaps. Which could prove more likely.

Sam Cade
July 18, 2014, 12:15 AM
Has an executive order banned any imports that are not firearms?

Yes. The EOs ban US Americans from doing any and all business with a huge array of Russian bad actors, both individuals and corporate entities.

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/OFAC-Enforcement/Pages/20140716.aspx



It is kinda funny to see this particular sanction imposed, considering the entire Saiga US export line probably only makes a few million dollars a year --hardly the lynchpin in Ivan's plans.

Firearms in particular are not banned.

barnbwt
July 18, 2014, 12:25 AM
Firearms in particular are not banned.
Oh, so there is some stuff from KC that can be imported? Or is there another firearm-maker that can import to this country (I thought they had all consolidated into the single entity)? I have also read that shell corporations could probably evade these barriers faster than they could be thrown up in any case.

TCB

jeffmack
July 18, 2014, 12:26 AM
To clarify:
Sam Cade, are you saying that they are still importing Saiga firearms? I checked the Treasury link that you mentioned, but I could not tell.

Sam Cade
July 18, 2014, 12:35 AM
To clarify:
Sam Cade, are you saying that they are still importing Saiga firearms?

No. Kalashnikov Concern does more than make firearms.

ALL products made by the Kalashnikov Concern are illegal to import into the United States since is illegal for a US American citizen to do any business with the Kalashnikov Concern.


As part of its enforcement efforts, OFAC publishes a list of individuals and companies owned or controlled by, or acting for or on behalf of, targeted countries. It also lists individuals, groups, and entities, such as terrorists and narcotics traffickers designated under programs that are not country-specific. Collectively, such individuals and companies are called "Specially Designated Nationals" or "SDNs." Their assets are blocked and U.S. persons are generally prohibited from dealing with them. [09-10-02]

Mosin Bubba
July 18, 2014, 03:03 AM
Any idea on how this will affect ammo availablity? If the Wolf/Tula type stuff gets banned, ammo price across the board would be driven up drastically, and that would do FAR more damage to the American shooting community than only banning guns from one company.

Recent, repeated history would strongly indicate this is not the last effort on this front; the prez tends to pursue any line lacking opposition to excess. I honestly wouldn't put it past him to try removing sporting exemptions on cartridges by the end of this. They're pushing on 80%, armor piercing ammo, imports, parts kits, licensing... pretty much everything you don't need congressional approval for. Fancy that?

"I've got a pen and a phone." :uhoh:

Davek1977
July 18, 2014, 08:16 AM
There's really no competition to the Saiga12 Many consider the VEPR 12 to be an improvement over the Saiga 12. Saying its without competition simply isn't accurate

barnbwt
July 18, 2014, 10:00 AM
Isn't VEPR made by the same folks, though?

yamahawarrior89
July 18, 2014, 10:21 AM
I really would like to see the Zastava M91.

http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en/militaryproduct/sniper-rifle-m91

dvdcrr
July 18, 2014, 10:27 AM
the ammo will not be banned, wolf brand comes from Ukraine as well.

M1key
July 18, 2014, 11:16 AM
the ammo will not be banned, wolf brand comes from Ukraine as well.

Yeah, that could never be a problem. :rolleyes:

M

Orion8472
July 18, 2014, 11:19 AM
I haven't priced unconverted Saiga rifles in a while, but just a quick "once over" on gunbroker shows them at the lowest price of ~$500. I've noticed a few that were quite a bit more starting out.

When I got mine, it was ~$350. Guess I got mine at the right time.

Jackal
July 18, 2014, 12:20 PM
Much Wolf ammo is made by Barnaul, so it seems that will be banned, as will Brown Bear, Golden Tiger, Silver/Gold Bear, Wolf Military Classic, Tula ammo, etc.

MrTuffPaws
July 18, 2014, 12:35 PM
Now I don't feel so bad about paying 750 for a Saiga 12 back when I was in California.

anothernewb
July 18, 2014, 01:01 PM
frackitall I'm another day late and a dollar short again.

Orion8472
July 18, 2014, 01:18 PM
Jackal, is your post #87 confirmed or just supposition?

JustinJ
July 18, 2014, 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by HOOfan_1 View Post
Do we import anything else from Russia? Has an executive order banned any imports that are not firearms?
Good question. Looks like their primary export is to the EU at ~45 percent. US makes up ~6 percent. Import from the US is negligible at best. There is absolutely nothing to these 'sanctions'. They are completely meaningless.

Good question...then why did you dodge it? There is a whole litany of sanctions against Russia including much more than Saigas.

Somebody mentioned the ban on Norinco AK's and its permanence. Its my understanding they were sanctioned for selling missiles to Iran so its a fairly different situation.

Jackal
July 18, 2014, 02:27 PM
Jackal, is your post #87 confirmed or just supposition?

I was careful to use the word "seems".:) It seems like Russian ammo will also be banned, if not now, then shortly. Either way, I'm hedging my bets and stocking up on things. I did the same thing a couple years ago and purchased about 3 cases of .22lr.....

Orion8472
July 18, 2014, 02:42 PM
Ah!!! "Seems". It's a really good word. :)

But I hear ya. Gonna stock up on Tula this weekend.

Sam Cade
July 18, 2014, 02:47 PM
Isn't VEPR made by the same folks, though?

If by the same folks you mean the Russian Federation Oligarchy, Yes.

From a while back:
http://rostec.ru/en/news/832

Molot Firearms becomes part of Russian Technologies State Corporation.

In the meantime, Russia’s Federal Antimonopoly Service (FAS) has approved Russian Technologies’ plan to acquire 100% in Molot Firearms.

Russian Technologies State Corporation became a shareholder in Molot Firearms LLC’s parent company Molot, which is currently in bankruptcy. Molot’s other majority shareholder, public OAO Concern Izhmash (controlled by Russian Technologies through OAO Izhmash, which is currently in the process of being wound up) was declared bankrupt in October 2011,” Russian FAS says in today’s announcement.

In an interesting development, Sergey Urzhumtsev was appointed new CEO of Molot Firearms LLC on 7 December 2012. Mr. Urzhumtsev is Head of Design and Technology Unit and Senior Designer at the public OAO Molot; he has worked at Vyatskiye-Poliany-based Molot for more than 15 years.

In the meantime, Vyatskiye Poliany-based Molot LLC may become part of the Kalashnikov Group. The expanded group is to include Concern IzhMash, Izhevsk Mechanical Engineering Plant, and, possibly, Molot, within the Kalashnikov Group, RIA Novosti reports citing an unnamed source who asked not to disclose his identity.

sappyg
July 18, 2014, 07:45 PM
Good question...then why did you dodge it? There is a whole litany of sanctions against Russia including much more than Saigas.
.

I dodged nothing. Up to this very recent event only a few nefarious individuals were sanctioned.
These few recent and sundry sanctions are meaningless to the overall trade between these two nations. Which of coarse, is the point I was making. Again, their export to the US comprises less than 6% of their total export. Russia imports less then 3% of all imports from the US. I guess they don't like ARs.

No sanction from the US will have a desired effect on Russia. Yes it can effect the US gun community to a slight degree. But, as suggested, the EU has much more at stake in the matter than the US gun culture.

An interesting notion and a likely scenario: there will be a spinoff of one of these brands of AK made solely for US consumption if there is a demand. Similar to, if not exactly like, the Saiga/ VEPR line we already know. This is a very... Non event.

MAKster
July 18, 2014, 09:53 PM
All the AK manufacturers are heavily dependent on American gun owners. I read that 40 percent of Kalashnikov Concern sales are to the U.S. consumer market. They will likely go bankrupt if they cannot sell Saigas to Americans. U.S. consumer sales is also the largest market for the companies in Romania and Bulgaria. Military use of AKs is in decline.

Rudytheancient
July 18, 2014, 10:41 PM
I don't see this as part of a 'plot' to ban arms. It will hurt the Russians which is the intent of the order. I'd also bet that if Putin moves towards a serious discussion about stopping hostilities and securing the peace in Ukraine, all the bans will be lifted. No one will have to wait until 2016. Moreover, any of the rifles now banned from import, if paid for and in American hands, can be sold, bought, traded without restriction. Just can't deal with the Russians.

I don't think the American manufacturers will be complaining. Buy American-isn't that part of patriotism? It puzzles me why we would want to buy Russian products at the same time they seem to be spitting in the world's face.

Jackal
July 18, 2014, 11:00 PM
if Putin moves towards a serious discussion about stopping hostilities and securing the peace in Ukraine, all the bans will be lifted. No one will have to wait until 2016.

Because we all know how many EO's get repealed..... Just look at all the Chinese/Norinco guns currently coming into the country 20 years after Clinton banned them.....:banghead: Nope, they are likely gone for quite a while I'm afraid.

Fishbed77
July 18, 2014, 11:59 PM
Somebody mentioned the ban on Norinco AK's and its permanence. Its my understanding they were sanctioned for selling missiles to Iran so its a fairly different situation.

...and Russia GAVE missiles to separatists who then used them to murder 300 innocent civilians in an airliner.

I don't see this ban going away anytime soon. In all likelihood it will be as permanent as the Norinco ban.

Sam Cade
July 19, 2014, 12:00 AM
I read that 40 percent of Kalashnikov Concern sales are to the U.S. consumer market.


40% of small arms sales are to the US. 70% of their small arms production is intended for civilian consumption.

Remember, the Kalashnikov Concern makes much more than small arms.




They will likely go bankrupt if they cannot sell Saigas to Americans..

It is a state owned/controlled industry so "bankruptcy" doesn't mean much.

js8588
July 19, 2014, 12:47 AM
I signed this. If you oppose the sanctions, you should sign it too https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/lift-imposed-sanctions-izhmash-kalashnikov-concern/HWHyZhdt

Ignition Override
July 19, 2014, 02:37 AM
js8588: Thanks for the easy link. Just signed it and confirmed via e-mail.

When the tv networks began frequent broadcasts of videos with Russians in the Crimea last March, it quickly became very difficult to find Saiga 5.45 rifles.
I missed out by about six hours at Classicarms in NC. Ammo was still about .17/rd.

At least 7.62x39 remains at .21-.22 rd., for the moment if not longer.

MAKster
July 19, 2014, 10:23 AM
I think starting a petition that says Obama is a meanie because he won't let us buy AKs from Putin the dictator is really tone deaf. It makes us look as bad as the people who are carrying rifles into Starbucks.

HOOfan_1
July 19, 2014, 10:31 AM
Whitehouse petitions are a joke. They just close down and ignore the ones El Jefe disagrees with.

I think starting a petition that says Obama is a meanie because he won't let us buy AKs from Putin the dictator is really tone deaf. It makes us look as bad as the people who are carrying rifles into Starbucks.

Just because you think it is a good thing to do doesn't mean the way it was done was a good thing. Even the Dems in Congress should be outraged at some of the unilateral moves Obama has made. E.g claiming he can decide when Congress is in session and trying to make appointments without approval.

Caesar may have been the most popular man among the people...but he was still a dictator.

I agree with Thomas Jefferson here

Another incident took place on the same occasion, which will further delineate Mr. Hamilton's political principles. The room being hung around with a collection of the portraits of remarkable men, among them were those of Bacon, Newton and Locke, Hamilton asked me who they were. I told him they were my trinity of the three greatest men the world had ever produced, naming them. He paused for some time: "the greatest man," said he, "that ever lived, was Julius Caesar." Mr. Adams was honest as a politician, as well as a man; Hamilton honest as a man, but, as a politician, believing in the necessity of either force or corruption to govern men.
-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush January 16, 1811


This latest Executive order IMO is a Caesarian or Hamiltonian type move.

js8588
July 19, 2014, 12:52 PM
If you agree with the sanctions, don't sign it. Just thought I'd share it with the class, so to speak.

Gelgoog
July 19, 2014, 01:03 PM
dang and I had a vepr 12 and vepr rpk I sold two weeks ago for a loss....

Arizona_Mike
July 19, 2014, 03:06 PM
I am very much pro-sanctions but I just don't like to see the gun industry singled out.

Mike

boricua9mm
July 19, 2014, 05:01 PM
When it comes to the KC company, has any footwork been done to determine which ammo manufacturers KC is the parent company of, or is all of this a good old-fashioned panic? Would be nice to know, particularly if the information can be from a cited source.

Tula, I'd assume, is owned by KC, but there are several Ruskie manufacturing plants producing ammo such as Barnaul, Ulyvanosk, etc.

Jackal
July 19, 2014, 05:13 PM
Say goodbye to Mosin Nagants! They were made by companies that Kalashnikov Concern now owns and has been importing through Molot. Why no one has brought this up yet is beyond me, its not just AK's that are banned from importation.

Kynoch
July 19, 2014, 05:19 PM
Say goodbye to Mosin Nagants! They were made by companies that Kalashnikov Concern now owns and has been importing through Molot. Why no one has brought this up yet is beyond me, its not just AK's that are banned from importation.

My Mosin Nagant was made by Remington Arms in Ilion, NY.

PabloJ
July 19, 2014, 05:21 PM
I am very much pro-sanctions but I just don't like to see the gun industry singled out.

Mike
Why are you pro sanctions? The events aren't even occurring on your continent.:confused:

Sam Cade
July 19, 2014, 05:26 PM
Tula, I'd assume, is owned by KC.

Nope.

The Russian Federation government controls the defense industry (including JSC Tula Arms Plant) through a giant state owned corporation, ROSTEC.

ROSTEC in turn owns controlling interests in everything (and I mean everything) else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rostec#Machine_Engineering_Technologies

ROSTEC itself is controlled by former KGB man, Putin Homeslice and persona non grata in the US, Sergey Chemezov.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Chemezov

Sam Cade
July 19, 2014, 05:30 PM
Why are you pro sanctions? The events aren't even occurring on your continent.:confused:

:uhoh:


Don't take the bait folks, this can be an informative and productive thread.

boricua9mm
July 19, 2014, 05:57 PM
So aside from the Tula ammo works, there is no trackable paper trail to the rest of the Russian ammo manufacturers as it pertains to this sanction? I've probably fired all of 100 rounds of Tula manufactured ammo in the past several years. The lion's share of the Russian ammo that I've bought and fired has come from Vympel, Ulyvanosk and Barnaul. Of course, the manufacturers are not always transparent on who their parent companies are, which only muddies up these waters.

In other words, aside from Tula, is any other Russian ammo currently falling under the blanket of this sanction? If so, can any of this info be substantiated with cited sources? After all, if we're going to panic, it should be on reasonable grounds.

Sam Cade
July 19, 2014, 06:12 PM
The Tula Cartridge Works JSC does not appear on the OFAC sanctions list.

https://sdnsearch.ofac.treas.gov/

Jackal
July 19, 2014, 06:16 PM
Seriously people, wont Mosins also be banned from importation?

PabloJ
July 19, 2014, 06:26 PM
I suspect not since these haven't been made in many years. LGS has bunch of recently imported old stock SKS rifles for sale. These old stock used rifles were stored in brownish goo and were recently imported from I'm guessing China or Vietnam. Most are Chinese manufacture with occasional Tula gun in the bunch.

Sam Cade
July 19, 2014, 06:43 PM
Seriously people, wont Mosins also be banned from importation?

Only of the entity importing the rifles appears on the sanction list.

Jackal
July 19, 2014, 06:59 PM
Molot is a subsidiary of Izhmash, which has been importing Vepr's and Mosins. Wonder how far down the Izhmash ban trickles...

AKElroy
July 19, 2014, 07:12 PM
Last map I saw has Russia in control of 20% or so of Ukraine already. Reckon Putin is going to stop now? I don't think so. While I am sure our POTUS enjoys the ability to harm the interests of RKBA folks like us, this type of sanction is one of the few EO's that actually serves a proper roll.

The only issue with our sanctions thus far are that they do not go anywhere NEAR FAR ENOUGH. We should be leading the charge, regardless the economic damage to our own interests, to stop the re-unification of the soviet block. Banking, oil, gas, credit markets, all of it. This tepid, selective "do no harm" (except to gun owners) crap is not going to cut it.

We are Americans first, folks. How many millions have lost their lives against the eastern block over the last 70 years? We cannot allow that to happen again. Too much blood was spilled to break it up in the first place.

Sam Cade
July 19, 2014, 07:29 PM
Molot is a subsidiary of Izhmash, which has been importing Vepr's and Mosins. Wonder how far down the Izhmash ban trickles...

As of last year IZHMASH no longer exists.
The sanctions are against the Kalashnikov Concern.

MAKster
July 19, 2014, 08:00 PM
It doesn't matter who manufactured the Mosin 70 years ago. What matters is who the importer is buying them from. If they are coming from Molot I believe they would be banned from importation. But if they have been sitting in some warehouse in Albania for the past 50 years they would be ok to import.

Jackal
July 19, 2014, 08:02 PM
As of last year IZHMASH no longer exists.
The sanctions are against the Kalashnikov Concern.

They are considered the same thing, they sanctioned KALASHNIKOV CONCERN and any of its previous monikers. From the EO:

KALASHNIKOV CONCERN (a.k.a. CONCERN KALASHNIKOV; a.k.a. IZHEVSKIY MASHINOSTROITEL'NYI ZAVOD OAO; f.k.a. IZHMASH R&D CENTER; f.k.a. JSC NPO IZHMASH; f.k.a. NPO IZHMASH OAO; a.k.a. OJSC CONCERN KALASHNIKOV; f.k.a. OJSC IZHMASH; f.k.a. SCIENTIFIC PRODUCTION ASSOCIATION IZHMASH JOINT STOCK COMPANY), 3, Derjabin Pr., Izhevsk, Udmurt Republic 426006, Russia; Registration ID 1111832003018 [UKRAINE2].

I have a bad feeling that this is going to stretch a lot farther than we think.

Manta77
July 19, 2014, 08:44 PM
Funny how Saigas are singled out but the vodka still flows. I guarantee sanctioning their alcohol would provide much more financial damage to them than banning a few million dollars worth of rifles...

Jackal
July 19, 2014, 08:48 PM
Take our Vodka away and I still wouldnt drink Gin.:D

The perfect Martini:

1. Pour Gin, Vermouth and Olives into the trash where they belong.

2. Drink Whisky.

:D:D:D:D

Sam Cade
July 19, 2014, 09:45 PM
Funny how Saigas are singled out but the vodka still flows.
The Sanctions are being placed on individuals and entities that facilitate or profit from the invasion and destabilization of the Ukraine.

I don't think the Stolichnaya folks qualify.

AKElroy
July 19, 2014, 11:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manta77
Funny how Saigas are singled out but the vodka still flows.
The Sanctions are being placed on individuals and entities that facilitate or profit from the invasion and destabilization of the Ukraine.

I don't think the Stolichnaya folks qualify.


Perhaps if they did qualify, along with most other Russian exports, we could stop this man before he is one border away from a NATO country.

Manta77
July 19, 2014, 11:58 PM
We aren't really causing much negative economic impact by banning the importation of Nagants/Saigas/etc. They would be hurting if said vodka/Popav/etc. was even restricted (probably their number 1 export to the USA). Go to your local box store and look for "Made in Russia" tags outside of the sporting goods or the liquor section.

I don't believe for a second that the current set of sanctions wasn't politically motivated by "ban scary black gun" liberals.

Sun Tzu warrior
July 20, 2014, 12:40 AM
AK type rifles are made in many parts of the world, I doubt this will serve obama's desired effect. Putin has said that negotiating with obama, is "like playing chess with a pigeon, he kicks over the pieces..... craps all over the board.... then struts around like he won the game"
I suspect that this will serve to illustrate the wisdom, of that metaphor.
On that note, I think I will go buy a bottle of Russian Vodka, and celebrate this brilliant move in foreign relations. Thanks for pointing out the obvious Manta!
STW

Arizona_Mike
July 20, 2014, 01:16 AM
:uhoh:


Don't take the bait folks, this can be an informative and productive thread.
Biting my tongue :)

Mike

Kynoch
July 20, 2014, 02:51 AM
AK type rifles are made in many parts of the world, I doubt this will serve obama's desired effect. Putin has said that negotiating with obama, is "like playing chess with a pigeon, he kicks over the pieces..... craps all over the board.... then struts around like he won the game"
I suspect that this will serve to illustrate the wisdom, of that metaphor.
On that note, I think I will go buy a bottle of Russian Vodka, and celebrate this brilliant move in foreign relations. Thanks for pointing out the obvious Manta!
STW

Interesting how you put stock in something said by such a hideous and duplicitous individual... :rolleyes:

I also find it interesting that you type the current President of the United States' name (last name only mind you) in all non-capital letters. :rolleyes: Then again maybe you did that for the same reason you felt "vodka" needs to be capitalized when used in "Russian Vodka." ;)

midland man
July 20, 2014, 03:30 AM
so my question is?? is the bakial's banned as I wanted a singleshot 410 the model mp-18 in which I have the 12 gauge now but wanted the bakial mp-18 in 410? so is this banned? plus is 7.62x54r ammo banned as well?? thanks!

RG7X
July 20, 2014, 08:16 AM
I haven't seen anything regarding ammo bans yet as some earlier post also stated however it's highly likely as more sanctions continue to be levied on both governments.

Sam Cade
July 20, 2014, 12:32 PM
Go to your local box store and look for "Made in Russia" tags outside of the sporting goods or the liquor section.


$2,152,300,000.

Amount of Russian imports.

In May. :eek:

https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4621.html



I don't believe for a second that the current set of sanctions wasn't politically motivated by "ban scary black gun" liberals.

Really? Have you actually looked at the sanctions?

Manta77
July 20, 2014, 01:30 PM
Sam, how much of that figure is actually affected by the sanctions? Your tables don't really clarify, they just show figures. I have seen the sanction list and most of the stock names listed don't contain names of companies found at your local "box store". The sanctions are a joke, and only give the current administration an opportunity to turn up the heat a little on the frying pan in which we are all simmering in.

To clarify my view: I am not in favor of letting Putin do whatever he wants, but by bringing up vodka, I was merely trying to make a point that there are better ways to hit their pockets other than banning Saigas. And sorry....you haven't convinced me that in banning russian rifles, it's not politically motivated by the prez.

PabloJ
July 20, 2014, 01:32 PM
Interesting how you put stock in something said by such a hideous and duplicitous individual... :rolleyes:

I also find it interesting that you type the current President of the United States' name (last name only mind you) in all non-capital letters. :rolleyes: Then again maybe you did that for the same reason you felt "vodka" needs to be capitalized when used in "Russian Vodka." ;)
While we do not need Russian imports the sanctions will not work and are pretty much pointless. It's good thing there is Chopin vodka for those who really know what best vodka tastes like. When one compares Russian ammo to stuff from Czech Republic, Serbia, Korea the Russian stuff is pretty horrible. After being shot is stinks up indoor range like a tar pit sauna!:barf:

Jackal
July 20, 2014, 02:07 PM
After being shot is stinks up indoor range like a tar pit sauna!

Smells like a good time to me.:)

Sam Cade
July 20, 2014, 02:15 PM
banning russian rifles

Kalashnikov Concern isn't just rifles. It is an integral part of the state controlled military industrial complex. Pull back a bit, you are missing the forest for the trees.




I have seen the sanction list and most of the stock names listed don't contain names of companies found at your local "box store"


There is more to the world of business than retail goods. The sanctions prevent American companties from dealing with Russian companies overseas.

So, for instance, if an Entity in Latvia or Iraq or some place wants to purchase a $5,000,000 Avia helicopter package their American owned bank tells them to go take a hike.

Manta77
July 20, 2014, 02:25 PM
Russia doesn't need us, and they know it. They supply enough energy to the Europeans to where they don't need loans (from us or any other country) and will finance countries whom they back. Putin has Europe feeding off of the Russian energy umbilical cord and they can turn the valve off any time they want....And Europe knows this. Our sanctions mean NOTHING to them. Europe may talk, but they aren't going to bite the hand that feeds. Until Europe can sever the cord, they will continue to feed the machine.....Even if we eventually do ban Popov!

Manta77
July 20, 2014, 02:27 PM
+1 Jackal..Love me some Wolf!

MagnumWill
July 20, 2014, 03:04 PM
I concur with Sam Cade. I will happily fulfill my AK needs through Yugoslavia, Romania, Serbia, Poland, etc. and not support an entity whose controlling stake's best interest is to remove the USA from being the world's premier super power.

I know Troy Industries had received backlash during the banic for not holding true to the 2A ideals - yet we support the KC?

Sun Tzu warrior
July 20, 2014, 04:14 PM
Kynoch, Glad to have piqued your interest.
STW

I6turbo
July 20, 2014, 04:40 PM
Interesting how you put stock in something said by such a hideous and duplicitous individual... :rolleyes:

I also find it interesting that you type the current President of the United States' name (last name only mind you) in all non-capital letters. :rolleyes:
Then again, there is the widely-held view that the latter is defined by the former.

armoredman
July 20, 2014, 04:44 PM
Manta, if we can ever end our ban on exporting natural gas, we can offset that advantage pretty quick, and I do believe there has been some discussion/action towards that end.

I have one question - given this is a politically motivated order, not to ban firearms, but to forbid US citizens from doing business with a foreign business entity as a political act - who's next? Don't tell me how righteous this order is because of the current crisis, I get that. But consider how every law can/has been twisted far out of shape to wildly different ends...what is the next crisis and who do we no longer do business with per presidential whim?
I do wish I'd snagged one of those Saiga shotguns when they first came in - they looked like fun, and were dirt cheap. Oh well.

Manta77
July 20, 2014, 07:20 PM
Armoredman, this may raise a few hairs on the back of your neck (in addition to the energy they are supplying).

www.forbes.com/sites/kitconews/2014/07/18/worlds-largest-silver-producing-countries-russia/

No telling how much gold they are mining and selling on the market.

I'm sure they are using this money to buy horses and carriages (and maybe a little pixie dust).

To be honest, I don't know who's next, however I AM glad I stocked up while the gettin was good on Saigas!

Col. Plink
July 21, 2014, 12:15 AM
Are Vepr's going to be affected?

js8588
July 21, 2014, 12:26 AM
Yes, Veprs are banned too. Too bad. I really wanted a Vepr 12.

Col. Plink
July 21, 2014, 12:38 AM
Wow, that blows. They're Ukranian!

Was gonna go w/ a 7.62x54r and a like value of ammo...

barnbwt
July 21, 2014, 01:16 AM
The Sanctions are being placed on individuals and entities that facilitate or profit from the invasion and destabilization of the Ukraine.

I don't think the Stolichnaya folks qualify.
On the contrary... ;) Blah, blah, blah, some joke about drunken soldiers :p

Baikal is supposedly also affected, right? It's all KC's firearms, right? Still somehow getting conflicting reports as to whether it's just AK-pattern stuff impacted, though such a situation would make no sense.

TCB

Sam Cade
July 21, 2014, 01:37 AM
They're Ukranian!


Nope.

Built on RPK recievers in Vyatskiye Polyany, Russian Federation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyatskiye_Polyany

dvdcrr
July 21, 2014, 01:49 AM
Ive owned a vepr and some saigas. Currently still have one. Kind of bad this news is, but look, you can still get superior bulgy and yugo rifles. You can still go out and get many decent rifles in any affected caliber, but they might not be Russian. The sun will come up.

Sam Cade
July 21, 2014, 01:50 AM
It's all KC's firearms, right?

Any business with Kalashnikov Concern is now illegal for US individuals and businesses. Not just firearms.

American company working abroad can no longer purchase vehicles or machine tools from KC for instance.

Orion8472
July 21, 2014, 10:43 AM
I'm still interested in any source documentation as per russian ammo and whether or not it [too] will be banned.

PabloJ
July 21, 2014, 10:50 AM
Well, successful gun controls begins and ends with successful ammo control. My advice would be to buy as much as possible. The sooner the better. I could have sworn I have seen TV images of AK laying next to shot up SUV in that recent California bark robbery fiasco (disaster). Like someone above I see dark clouds gathering for the AKM.

mboylan
July 21, 2014, 01:08 PM
I'm still interested in any source documentation as per russian ammo and whether or not it [too] will be banned.
This EO has not banned Russian ammo. It is still being shipped here. KC started to build an ammo plant , but it wasn't going to be operational until 2016.

barnbwt
September 17, 2014, 11:48 PM
Any updates? I still see Saigas for sale at the LGS and online, and don't recall incredible price increases, at least (or have I been conditioned to see anything less than tripling as 'moderate?'). Are certain models starting to dry up yet?

TCB

sappyg
September 17, 2014, 11:57 PM
The shotguns look like they are bringing a premium but I never kept up with them to be certain.

Saiga rifles not so much. Lots of good rifles already on the market I think.

DeepSouth
September 18, 2014, 10:20 PM
Does anyone know if any AK-12's were imported before the ban.
I've wanted one since I found out about them but this ban probably makes that impossible unless there's already some here. :(:(

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