What do y'all do at your gatherings? Is an SOP necessary?


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Buckskinner
April 8, 2004, 12:17 PM
This is interesting, because of the potential for organization. For me, living in KA (unnamed megalopolis) most of the time, gun ownership is like automatic pariah status. My old acquantainces suffer through my 2nd amendment cajoling, and new friends sometimes look like they're reaching for the cross and the stake. I do my thing, and take newbies shooting, and talk about the uniqueness of Americans and arms, etc. etc. etc.

When I went to a gathering recently, I didn't get to talk to the guys as much as I thought. And that's okay, that's kind of what these forums are for. The clear expression of gun related ideas. We were all happily banging away, with no stated plan for skills building.

Now when I'm at the range, its important to me to try and get better with the time and money and tools I have. Meaning I want to shoot better, practice harder and hone my skills. I don't have the chance to do this with others, and that's what I'd like to get out of future gatherings.

So I ask you: when you gather, do you have plans to train together? If so, what are they? Or, what is the stated agenda of the gathering? If its just "bang, boom, smile", no problem. But if its something else, please share it with us.

Let me ask you this. Do you believe firearms training classes will be available indefinitely to the general (non LEO) public? If not, then shouldn't we be trying to take our training back to non trained firearms enthusiasts? We'd all get more bang for our buck, so to speak, not to mention have safer communities when we return home...

A book by Ray Bradbury called "Fahrenheit 451" describes a future where books are illegal, and systematically destroyed by the govt. People take to memorizing books in order to pass on the knowledge. "be the book" sorta thing. 451 degrees fahrenheit is the temperature at which paper burns...

So, let's "be the training". When at these gatherings, is there a way to pass on material, moves, mentality etc. to those of us who can't afford the time or money to go to a class?

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QuarterBoreGunner
April 9, 2004, 11:19 PM
Buckskinner; don't want you to think no ones paying attention.

Ok then:

Yeah for the most part our THR NorCal Mob get-togethers have been mainly of the "bang, boom, smile" type. And those kinds are great; we get to shoot each other’s guns and generally hang out and BS. I absolutely believe in passing along meaningful information but most of the time at the range actual discourse can be difficult (guns being loud and cease-fires being short). I’ve attended one Chuck Taylor/HALO Group course with a few other board members, Atek3, Minion82, DVDTracker and others.

As for training classes becoming unavailable to the general public, I don’t think that can ever happen. Information is slippery and trying to restrict learning is, in my opinion, a fools errand.

Sven
April 10, 2004, 12:23 AM
Buckskinner: we need to get together more often to keep it from being as QBG described above - simply too much to catch up on and check out when we don't Rally more than once a year.

To all: anyone interested in training together in the Bay Area, let me know via PM. You set up the courses and tape targets, and I'll shoot your course of fire. ;) You don't _have_ to pick up my brass, but I might pick up yours!

Seriously, I'm practicing Highpower rifle regularly at my club and you can come up once as my Guest (otherwise $12 for the day). Also: If you want to get better, you simply MUST shoot IDPA out in Turlock. Allen does an amazing job setting up courses and there are great people all around. Learn more at: http://www.midvalleyshooters.com

Chabot also has IDPA...

...back to the gatherings. All we have to do is stay away from the 40 yard line and there is a change of focus.

-s

---

In case you missed it, there was some knowledge shared this weekend (other than how to open old ammo cans):

Exhibit A: Here is a shot of Atek3 demonstrating tactical reloads:

http://www.imageseek.com/sven/gallery/albums/2004-04-03_TheHighRoad-org/atek3_tactical_reload.sized.jpg

Here is Combat-Wombat shooting the Valtro. His challenge was that he could keep shooting as long as he was within 4" of the dot out at 10 yards. He shot for a while:

http://www.imageseek.com/sven/gallery/albums/2004-04-03_TheHighRoad-org/combat_valtro.sized.jpg

And lastly, here is someone you may recognize (this is you right?) getting all tactical with a modified carbine:

http://www.imageseek.com/sven/gallery/albums/2004-04-03_TheHighRoad-org/carbine_scout.sized.jpg

Maybe its just a matter of perspective. ;) Let's have a simple three gun contest, with four prizes: rifle, pistol, shotgun, and overall. We didn't shoot trap all day! shame on us!


PS, Buck: And don't let the "Left Coast" Libs get you down! :D

Telperion
April 10, 2004, 12:29 AM
I also want to make sure you're not ignored here...

In addition to what QBG said, Los Altos has severe restrictions on any type of "tactical" behavior. No holstered sidearms, no rapid fire except for .22LR on the tin can range, and the range officers get real uptight about anything that smacks of training. At a previous shoot, we had a "Police Training" sign that was taped up to read "THR Training" so people could find us. 5 minutes didn't go by before a RO came up and told us the sign should hit the high road.

Edit: this isn't to say sharing training knowledge is impossible. atek3 and I had a good discussion of retention and tac reload techniques we learned from our respective courses. But it is hard to do the kind of drills we do in courses because of all the range rules. :(

Buckskinner
April 10, 2004, 02:25 AM
I appreciate the responses. I know if had stayed for the famous BBQ, I could have hashed out some of this stuff. Family duties prevailed though, which is even more reason I have to maximize my time behind the trigger. I'm not trying to be a wet towel on youse guyses gatherings.

Sven, I re-he-he-heeeellly liked that M1 carbine...

Pip, I know about the restrictions, and I guess I feel safer that we don't get some of the more loose canons around practicing the latest move. Saying that, I do want to be able to get together with "My Peeps" and do what we do best, SHOOT! (and talk...) and share what each of us has learned. Obviously can't do it in a day...

QBG, training for "civilians" will be restricted in my opinion. It may take another decade, but it sure seems that as these classes promulgate, the knowledge will trickle to some strident anti, who will begin the avalanche of "democracy in action". I agree that knowledge and learning is slippery, thus the F.451 reference.

Did I mention I had a whole lot of fun?

atek3
April 10, 2004, 02:51 AM
Well here's a crazy idea. Why don't we have a 'high road panoche' trip. I've been there twice, so have some calgunners and high roaders. Panoche Hills is great, just wide open BLM land. There we can set up a pistol line for holster work. Or setup steel out to 500 yds (or further) and hammer those silhouettes til your heart is content. What Pipsqueak said about the 'non-tacticality' of Los Altos. Chabot is even worse. They don't even allow silhouette targets.

I'd be totally down for an "AQT-off" see who can get the highest score among the NorCal High Road Posse. I doubt it will be me, as <insert lame excuse here>, but I'll try :) (admit it, shooting postage stamps with iron sights at 25 m is pretty hard)

atek3

PS I remembered why I 'tap, rack' with my thumb pointed towards me rather than the more rapid "cant gun, grip with thumb away" method they taught you at sigarms. That grip is universal, when I do any clearance drill, the hand position is the same, just a slight clockwise 'flick' as added to clear any brass or a misfired cartridge. Just goes back to the KISS principle. In IPSC I was taught to hit the slide lock with my shooting thumb after a mag change. Both teachers I've had poo-poo that because, "under stress trying to hit a 1/4 inch piece of metal in the correct order (after inserting a fresh mag) will be tough). The 'over the top' rack is slightly slower, but always works. Just a thought.

atek3
April 10, 2004, 03:01 AM
Well actually re: banning training. Most states in CONUS have 'anti-paramilitary statutes'. The ADL and SPLC pushed for and received such high-minded laws.
Quote:
Federal law prohibits paramilitary training and the manufacture or transport of weapons with the knowledge or intent that they will be used to create a civil disturbance. 18 U.S.C. § 231-233
Federal law differs from most state laws prohibiting paramilitary training in that it applies only to the trainers, not the trainees. Under most state laws governing paramilitary training, participation as a trainee is also illegal.

Laws are on the books in 41 states to ban either the militias themselves or paramilitary training or both

The two types of laws operate differently. Anti-paramilitary training laws ban groups whose members know or intend that a civil disorder will result from their activities. Anti-militia laws ban all unauthorized militias, regardless of whether the participants have any specific criminal intent or knowledge. Anti-militia laws generally require evidence that a group of people are associated together in a formal military-type organization. Anti-paramilitary training statutes, by contrast, can be used against groups as small as two or three people. Both types of laws generally exempt organizations like hunting clubs.

These laws are seldom enforced, but they are relevant to an adjudicative determination that an individual is engaging in either lawful or unlawful militia activities.
:end quote

:tinfoil on:
Its not a stretch to say that "precision sniper I" is a "para-military" class with 'no lawful purpose' and accordingly should be off limits to the lumpenmensch. "Tactical Handgun I" "Urban Carbine II", none of these sound good. All it will take is some Gunsite or Thunder Ranch graduate, armed with an effective rifle committing one nefarious act for the FedGov to say, "okay, time to reign in these militia training centers".
:tinfoil off:

atek3

Sgt Stevo
April 26, 2004, 03:52 AM
I learned that there are other guys out there, that think like I do. I learned how too break down my sks. thanks gunner. And if I get invited again. I get to shoot guns that I am not allowed to own or uncle suger does not have. But real training would be good. I have had years of training and the hr guys almost to a man are as good or way better shots than me. With that in mind. Why dont we find a hillside some place and tear it up....

Buckskinner
April 26, 2004, 02:55 PM
And I just got back from an Awerbuck pistol class that I'd only be too happy to "pass it on"..

Pig hunting too!

RAY WOODROW 3RD
April 26, 2004, 06:52 PM
During our shoots at Buckeye in New Jersey we have "fun" shoots that combine bang, bang, smile AND some sort of skills/senerio training.

For the longest time we were just doing the 60 round NJ police qualification course after all the event shooting posted below. Our shoots are structured as events and after the events there is free time to just do some general plinking. We just held our shoot Sunday and this is what we did:

1) rope/log shoot

Starting out at 20 yards with 6 rounds and 6 shooters on the line, shoot the rope to make the log drop. If it is not droped at 20 yards, reload, advance to 15 yards and repeat. Do this until you are 5 yards from the rope and continue in loads of 6 utill a log drops. Each winner of each heat will advance to the next stage until there is one winner. Rope is only 1/4 or 3/8 inch thistle rope with a log hanging freely and the rope moving.

2) bowling pin shoot

Staying at 20 yards, 4 shooters with 6 rounds have 3 pins to clear. If not done in the first volley, reload, and repeat staying at the 20 yard line. Each winner of each heat will advance to the next stage until there is one winner.

3) clay shoot

Starting at 25 yards, Set up 4 clay pigeons attached to the back board at each of the 6 positions. Vary the clays in height on the board (not all in a neat line). Load with 6 rounds. If the clays are not cleared at 25 yards, reload, advance to 20 yards and repeat. Do this until you are 5 yards from the clays and continue in loads of 6 till all the clays are cleared. Each winner of each heat will advance to the next stage until there is one winner.

4) self defense shoot

This was a new one I made up.
Start with your pistol holstered at 3 yards facing a human form target with scoring rings. At the blow of the whistle, you are to pull from holster and fire 3 rounds from the "protected position" into the target and slowly retreat to cover that is 10 yards away walking backwards while dumping 3 more aimed shots into the target. Getting behind cover you are to reload, pull out your cell phone and pretend to call 911 and report a shooting with your location. Upon making the call you realize that you were hit in your dominant arm and it is useless. You must switch to your weak hand and shoot 6 more times into the target for a total of 12 rounds.


I hold this shoot on a private range out in the Pine Barrens. I do not think any "formal range" would allow its members to do this at all. Liability being the main factor. Could I be charged with what is stated in another post? I honestly don't know and don't care. I am a NRA Certified Instructor so that if I am questioned I have some sort of "credentials" to offer up.
We are only getting together to have a good time and raise some money for a good cause. If they fear that, Srew 'em!

Buckskinner
April 26, 2004, 10:08 PM
Good skills builder too!

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