38 special wadcutter brass?


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jell-dog
July 19, 2014, 01:28 AM
I got 2000 pieces of 38 special brass mixed head stamp on GUNBROKER, about 500 pieces look to be wadcutter brass.
The ones that have double "canalures" are stamped: Winchester, R-P, REM-UMC, WESTERN & FEDERAL.
Also, about 200 pieces are nickel plated.
I was planning to load lead wadcutter boolets in my "regular" 38spl brass, but would like to use these wadcutter brass instead.
Are these actually wadcutter brass??
Thanks for your time in advance.

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ArchAngelCD
July 19, 2014, 01:38 AM
Factory ammo loaded with a wadcutter bullet will usually have a double cannelure like your brass does but that doesn't make it "wadcutter brass." Once the round is fired the cannelure is rendered practically useless for holding the bullet in place because the pressure generated by the firing stretches the brass slightly. After a handful of firings the cannelures will be ironed out for the most part, still visible but no real indent.

jell-dog
July 19, 2014, 01:55 AM
AA, thanks for quick answer!
I had read here or on CASTBOOLETS that wadcutter brass had the double cannelure and the brass was straight inside for a longer measurement before tapering getting thicker close to the web of the brass.
Can't find that thread/post again, but even if cannelures stretch out wouldn't the longer straight portion of brass be a benefit to the wadcutter being seated so deep into the case?
Or is wadcutter brass and 38spl brass the same inside?

bluetopper
July 19, 2014, 01:58 AM
Put a wadcutter bullet in 38 brass and, whaala, it becomes wadcutter brass.

jell-dog
July 19, 2014, 02:05 AM
bluetopper,
VERY TRUE!
I have 100 357mag loaded with wadcutters (loaded to medium 38spl data) they shoot just fine;)

ArchAngelCD
July 19, 2014, 02:14 AM
I don't know who told you the brass loaded with a wadcutter bullet at the factory is different brass than "normal" .38 Special brass but I have never heard that and I don't think it's true. I'm fairly sure the cannelure is added after the bullet is seated. The brass is the same as any other .38 Special case from the same company.

If you doubt that to be true, try and find factory new brass for sale that is specifically meant for loading wadcutter bullets. If the company was using it, it would also be available for sale as a component. Any company would love to sell you more brass because it's different than the other .38 Special brass they sell.

gamestalker
July 19, 2014, 02:31 AM
I've also heard that +p head stamped brass is heavier than non stamped +p brass. So I weighed some just for kicks, and ya know, I found that the common discrepancies in brass weights alone, made it impossible to see a discernible difference between them.

GS

jell-dog
July 19, 2014, 10:03 AM
ArchAngelCD,
I was basing my thoughts on 38spl wadcutter brass and "regular" 38spl brass being different on this thread from CASTBOOLITS:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?156622-75-000Wadcutters-in-a-Model-27

gamestalker,
I found this article about +P brass being the same as regular brass:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?195216-38-Special-P-Brass
also these articles about +P brass:
http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/viewtopic.php?=20&t=61389

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=576048

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=276034

So I come to the conclusion that +P brass is the same as regular brass, the +P stamp is to warn consumers that it is a high powered load, not a standard load.

Still undecided if wadcutter brass is the same as regular brass, may have to section some of both in half and compare.
thanks all to your responses!!

ATLDave
July 19, 2014, 10:38 AM
I have loaded and shot many thousands of .38spls out of any and every brand and headstamp of .38 special brass. It just makes no difference. Get the charge, seating depth, and crimp right - little else seems to matter.

jell-dog
July 19, 2014, 11:15 AM
OK, here is a summary of loading accurate target ammo for 38spl using full lead wadcutter bullets.
I found this info in HANDLOADING by William C. Davis, Jr., an NRA publication dated 1981, page #108 attached below.
So, although standard 38spl brass can be used for full length wadcutter target ammunition, as long as I have all this "wadcutter brass" I will use it for wadcutter ammunition and load the standard 38spl brass with other profile bullets.

Again, thanks all for your thoughts on this subject!!
These posts motivated me to do more research into "wadcutter brass".

ATLDave
July 19, 2014, 11:20 AM
#6 seems to answer your question. The brass isn't really a factor. If you like using a particular brand of brass for WC's only, it won't hurt a bit. Neither will any other brass selection strategy.

jell-dog
July 19, 2014, 11:33 AM
ATLDave,
^^^ + my thoughts exactly!

918v
July 19, 2014, 12:11 PM
The big 3 used to make dedicated Wadcutter brass. It had a different internal taper to allow hollow base Wadcutter bullets to seat flush without swaging down the hollow skirt. Accuracy testing has shown that compressing the skirt during seating hurts accuracy. The pressure in these loads is insufficient to expand it back out.

Modern 38 Special brass starts tapering pretty quick and will mangle the skirts. Don't believe me? Load up some and pull the bullets.

Walkalong
July 19, 2014, 03:20 PM
I find it hard to believe that .38 Spl pressures will not expand the skinny, dead soft, HBWC skirt back out.

Some people like to use thinner walled RP brass for HBWCs, but most folks just load whatever brass they have.

ArchAngelCD
July 19, 2014, 03:26 PM
I find it hard to believe that .38 Spl pressures will not expand the skinny, dead soft, HBWC skirt back out.

Some people like to use thinner walled RP brass for HBWCs, but most folks just load whatever brass they have.
I use mostly Rem, Win and Fed .38 Special brass and I don't pick out the brass with a cannelure for loading wadcutters. I have never had a problem with accuracy. (well, because of the bullet that is) :p

918v
July 19, 2014, 08:23 PM
I find it hard to believe that .38 Spl pressures will not expand the skinny, dead soft, HBWC skirt back out.

I dunno when you last saw a HBWC bullet, but the skirt is not skinny and they run at 8000 PSI. That's not enough pressure to undo the swaging the internal taper of the case did.

918v
July 19, 2014, 08:30 PM
I have never had a problem with accuracy. (well, because of the bullet that is)

You may not have perceived a problem, but ammo manufacturers did and they went as far as retooling to make dedicated Wadcutter brass for these special loads.

918v
July 19, 2014, 08:48 PM
http://www.handgunsmag.com/2010/09/24/ammunition_hg_wickedwadcutters_200901/

Look at the picture of the wadcutters fired into jello. Look at the bases. The author used a Remington 148gr HBWC which is swaged from pure lead wire and an Oregon Trail 148gr DEWC with a beveled base which is cast from a hard alloy. Note the fired and recovered Remington bullet has a pronounced bevel at the base of the skirt. A virgin unfired Remington HBWC has a straight skirt with no bevel. That bevel is created when the skirt hits the internal taper of the case. Note the pressure generated by the author's load failed to remove that deformation even though the skirt is supposedly "thin" and "dead soft."

jell-dog
July 19, 2014, 09:10 PM
well now, that article is an eye opener to the use of the lowly wadcutter!

Walkalong
July 19, 2014, 09:22 PM
Hmm, well they are thin and dead soft, but pics don't lie. Interesting that only the last little bit isn't straight.

I wonder how many of us can shoot the difference? :)

medalguy
July 19, 2014, 09:50 PM
I know I sure can't.:(

918v
July 19, 2014, 10:07 PM
It always boils down to the gun shooting better than you can. That's not a reason for not trying.

Walkalong
July 19, 2014, 10:18 PM
Who says we aren't trying?

918v
July 20, 2014, 12:52 AM
You.

918v
July 20, 2014, 12:53 AM
Medalguy

918v
July 20, 2014, 12:54 AM
ArchAngelCD

ArchAngelCD
July 20, 2014, 01:01 AM
You may not have perceived a problem, but ammo manufacturers did and they went as far as retooling to make dedicated Wadcutter brass for these special loads.
Is there some proof of this special brass you speak of? I really have never seen writings anywhere about brass specifically designed for wadcutter ammo.

jell-dog
July 20, 2014, 02:01 AM
A thread on CASTBOOLETS "38 special wadcutter brass?":scrutiny:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?184201-38-Special-Wadcutter-Brass

Check to see if you have wadcutter brass: see post #2

918v
July 20, 2014, 02:16 AM
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?156622-75-000-Wadcutters-in-a-Model-27&p=1744312&viewfull=1#post1744312

ArchAngelCD
July 20, 2014, 02:16 AM
A thread on CASTBOOLETS "38 special wadcutter brass?":scrutiny:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?184201-38-Special-Wadcutter-Brass
If you're pointing to that thread as proof, it's not. What makes their opinions any more valid than the opinions expressed here?

918v is telling us wadcutter brass exists and I was asking him for proof because I'm very interested, not as a challenge...

ArchAngelCD
July 20, 2014, 02:21 AM
ArchAngelCD
Please point to the post where I said I wasn't trying to be as accurate with my shooting as possible?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?156622-75-000-Wadcutters-in-a-Model-27&p=1744312&viewfull=1#post1744312
Again, just because someone over on another forum says something is so is not proof it's so...

918v
July 20, 2014, 02:22 AM
Is there some proof of this special brass you speak of?

Why don't you find out for yourself. It's pretty easy. Take a Wadcutter case and section it. Then take a regular case and section it.

Just before you haven't heard of it don't mean it doesn't exist.

918v
July 20, 2014, 02:24 AM
Again, just because someone over on another forum says something is so is not proof it's so...

So what kind of proof do you need?

Do you want Ed Harris to tell you?

Why don't you ask him.

ArchAngelCD
July 20, 2014, 02:28 AM
Why don't you find out for yourself. It's pretty easy. Take a Wadcutter case and section it. Then take a regular case and section it.

Just before you haven't heard of it don't mean it doesn't exist.
As usual you are getting nasty so I'm through here. I guess you think it's alright to be like that since you are safe behind your computer screen. No reason for that at all...

I'm also wondering why you are hiding the fact you are online from everyone?

918v
July 20, 2014, 02:31 AM
I'm not hiding anything. I'm right here doing your research.

http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/2defb59b356f4c0f8bc9dbfff05e4d66-926.html

918v
July 20, 2014, 02:33 AM
And stop being so sensitive.

jell-dog
July 20, 2014, 02:52 AM
A thread on CASTBOOLETS "38 special wadcutter brass?":scrutiny:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?184201-38-Special-Wadcutter-Brass

Check to see if you have wadcutter brass: see post #2

jell-dog
July 20, 2014, 04:01 AM
This thread was started as a way to get input and FRIENDLY discussion from members of THR with A LOT MORE EXPERIENCE RELOADING than I have.
I will do more intensive research on my questions ON MY OWN before involving the members of THR in debate that somehow devolves into something less than a friendly discussion.
Thanks to all for their input, thoughts and examples on the question of "wadcutter brass, real or not"
Have a good day/night all.

Walkalong
July 20, 2014, 10:35 AM
can't we all just get along?
I guess not. Sorry.

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