Fail Background Check


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Praxidike
July 19, 2014, 04:04 AM
After buying several firearms (even one a couple of months ago 'Sig P238'), and having a valid VA CWP, I was deigned the purchase of a handgun at my LGS that I had shipped to them via online order yesterday. I was given a number to call to find out why. I was told by the officer that the only problem was that there was an issue with my license, and I should have received or will be receiving something in the mail soon regarding the problem. Being that it was 5pm and DMV was closed, I told the FFL dealer I'd be back in the morning. I took care of everything with DMV today, but I have to wait for them to mail out my reissued license to my home which will take 5-7 days. I told the FFL that I'd be back as soon as it comes in, and he seemed okay with it.

Well I have 1 minor and 1 major issue I need advice about. The minor problem is, and I'm just finding this out for the first time, I still might not be able to pick up my firearm for 30 days because of the following VA law:

Primary Identification

The primary form of ID shall consist of a valid photo-ID form issued by a governmental agency of the Commonwealth or of the prospective purchaser or transferee’s home state that denotes the individual’s name, race, sex, address, and date of birth. Where the primary form is a photo-ID issued by the Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV), the dealer shall not transfer a firearm to the prospective purchaser until 30-days after the date of issue of an original or duplicate driver's license unless a copy of his/her DMV driver's record is presented showing that the original date of issue was more than 30-days prior to the attempted purchase.

So even though I lived, worked, and have only been in DMV's records in the state of VA for the last 2 decades, I still have to wait 30 days before I can get my gun because the issued date on my license changed on my new card and it was not for a renewal.

The FLL dealer was referred to me from the online site. I had only called and emailed them a few times prior to me going to pick up the firearm. Well, while researching my options, I just came across the following on the FFL's website:


Transfer Policies AND Yes they CAN be HARSH, There designed that way to prevent Bull SH*T!!!!!!!!!!!!

....

ALL DENIED
Transactions will incur a fee of $100.00 and storage fees are effective
immediately ($10.00 per day). All legal and other fees incurred will be the responsibility of the denied person.
Ownership of the item transfers to <removed> at 60 days OR where the fees incurred equal the value of the item. Any unpaid / unclaimed / or abandoned transfers become the property of <removed> and they can dispose of said gun to pay for the fees.

Items are considered unclaimed or abandoned 90 days after receipt, unless prior arrangements have been made.

So basically my gun cost $400. If this guy tries & charge me $100 just because + $20 transfer + $10 for the 30 days that I have to wait, he'll basically will get a free firearm. The FFL and I chatted for a few, and he seemed pretty nice and helpful while I was there and all of the other times we spoke, but just in case, is there anything I can do to protect myself ahead of time? I have not spoken to him about this yet.

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barnbwt
July 19, 2014, 04:15 AM
Written promise?

Praxidike
July 19, 2014, 04:15 AM
Written promise?
of?

rwehnau
July 19, 2014, 07:03 AM
Problem with license? Oh well, business is business

OARNGESI
July 19, 2014, 07:35 AM
Any fees are really up to him, but if he really seems.like a good guy im sure.he will just let you get your item simply for the transfer fee. I'm sure that sign is just too discourage people from wasting his time

AlexanderA
July 19, 2014, 09:38 AM
Go back to the DMV and get a copy of your driving record showing that the original license (the one with which you had the problem) was issued more than 30 days prior. Or maybe the dealer will accept the original license as evidence of that. Talk to him first.

Tirod
July 19, 2014, 10:24 AM
Lots of dealers have some pretty onerous charges to compensate for "that buyer" who they occasionally have to deal with. It doesn't mean they won't waive the charges in your case, many would simply trying to be nice about a difficult circumstance.

But the fees are becoming common, even necessary in an era where they are getting cut out of the deal by internet vendors. He's got all the expenses of an actual brick and mortar store, local costs are always higher with his shop running far less volume than the internet dealers cutthroat warehouse operation.

Talk to the FFL and they will clear up your situation directly, we can't forecast or guarantee any solution. What can be said, tho, is that internet transfer fees will go up, have been going up, and are likely to finally top out in the future at the price of their lost profit. It's going to be an across the board movement by them to stay in business, the govt is backing them as the licensed outlet, and we aren't going to get any traction about it in the long run.

Except with 80% and 3D printing.

Potatohead
July 19, 2014, 12:02 PM
I guess you could always just not go get it.

Then buy it somewhere else and have it shipped to another FFL..

I wouldnt do that, but it's an option.

mrvco
July 19, 2014, 01:21 PM
I guess you could always just not go get it.

Then buy it somewhere else and have it shipped to another FFL..

I wouldnt do that, but it's an option.

He has already paid $400 + shipping to his local FFL for the gun. No one in their right mind would walk away at this point.

MachIVshooter
July 19, 2014, 02:50 PM
unless a copy of his/her DMV driver's record is presented showing that the original date of issue was more than 30-days prior to the attempted purchase.

Just get a copy of your MVR.


ALL DENIED
Transactions will incur a fee of $100.00 and storage fees are effective
immediately ($10.00 per day).

Well, your case is not really a denial; It's a technicality issue. Also seems like a generally silly policy, as unless someone had paid for a firearm up front, I don't see how they expect to collect those fees on a denial, since holding the firearm hostage would be a moot point if the transferee cannot take possession of the firearm. I agree, though, that it is a policy they have just in case, but will most likely waive such fees for folks with issues like yours. If not, that'd be pretty bad business.

TennJed
July 19, 2014, 03:01 PM
What can be said, tho, is that internet transfer fees will go up, have been going up, and are likely to finally top out in the future at the price of their lost profit. It's going to be an across the board movement by them to stay in business, the govt is backing them as the licensed outlet, and we aren't going to get any traction about it in the long run.

Except with 80% and 3D printing.
In steps the tabletop home FFL. They will take care of the transfer needs at a lower cost. It is happening now and will continue to

sota
July 19, 2014, 03:19 PM
OP: have you talked to the FFL and explained the situation, and asked if he'll be applying the fees you're worried about? A simple phone call should take care of the problem.

BSA1
July 19, 2014, 03:54 PM
It is not clear what the problem is with the O.P.'s drivers license. I do not know what a "technical issue" is.

Just get a copy of your MVR.

This seems to be the easiest way to resolve the problem.

RustyShackelford
July 19, 2014, 03:56 PM
I'm not sure of all the details but for future purchases, you might want to obtain a PIN or personal ID number. ;)
It's a special code the ATF gives you to expedite any firearm purchases.
The Yankee Marshal who hosts a Youtube.com channel has one. He buys a lot of firearms so he's doing background checks/forms often. From what I know he has a valid CCW too so it's not like he's a felon with his civil rights restored or on some TSA watch list. :uhoh:

Other forum members posted how to get a ATF/PIN do maybe they can give you a link.

Rusty

trigga
July 19, 2014, 08:07 PM
i had something similar. i was buying a shotgun except i had moved (same city) and had not changed my address on the license. had to go to dmv to get the temp tag. didn't end up buying it.

Potatohead
July 20, 2014, 05:32 AM
He has already paid $400 + shipping to his local FFL for the gun. No one in their right mind would walk away at this point.
Oopsy! Bad idea on my part. Ive never ordered online and done a transfer. Shouldve figured it worked that way though:banghead:

mnrivrat
July 20, 2014, 06:30 AM
It is not clear what the problem is with the O.P.'s drivers license. I do not know what a "technical issue" is.


Quote:
Just get a copy of your MVR.

This seems to be the easiest way to resolve the problem.

unless a copy of his/her DMV driver's record is presented showing that the original date of issue was more than 30-days prior to the attempted purchase

Perhaps the problem is that he didn't renew and it expired. Then the DMV would not show a date of issue 30 days prior .

In that case I would be talking real nice to the FFL and perhaps asking him if this time he would settle for a steak dinner ?

Blackhawk30
July 21, 2014, 08:57 AM
The Virginia law that the op quoted only applies to people who are new to the state.I don't think you have to go to the dmv for a copy of your driving record.They can check that online now.

Praxidike
July 21, 2014, 02:09 PM
The Virginia law that the op quoted only applies to people who are new to the state.I don't think you have to go to the dmv for a copy of your driving record.They can check that online now.
I hope that is the case, but that's not how the law is worded. I'll have to wait to find out.

Praxidike
July 21, 2014, 02:17 PM
i had something similar. i was buying a shotgun except i had moved (same city) and had not changed my address on the license. had to go to dmv to get the temp tag. didn't end up buying it.
I've read in the archives over on vagunforum that people who simply updated their address after moving within the state had to wait 30 days as well. I do not really understand the purpose of this law, and why people who replace, update, or get reissued a license or ID for any reason have to wait 30 days. Makes even less sense when you take into account that private sales are legal here with no other restrictions other than not being a criminal and being a resident of the state.

stonecutter2
July 21, 2014, 06:26 PM
of?
...written promise that he will only charge you $____ to have the firearm transferred to you?

What else would it be a written promise of? That's the issue at hand, right...how much will they charge you since you didn't have all of your ducks in a row.

It stinks but it happens. They may have that policy but enforce it selectively for "that kinda person" that completely wastes their time.

Talk to the FFL that currently has the firearm that you purchased, confirm the terms of the transfer, date of pick up, and get a written agreement. Pay ahead of time so you can show it's paid in full. That way you don't walk in to get your transfer to the tune of 100's of dollars you weren't expecting.

brboyer
July 23, 2014, 02:14 PM
I'm not sure of all the details but for future purchases, you might want to obtain a PIN or personal ID number. ;)
It's a special code the ATF gives you to expedite any firearm purchases.
The Yankee Marshal who hosts a Youtube.com channel has one. He buys a lot of firearms so he's doing background checks/forms often. From what I know he has a valid CCW too so it's not like he's a felon with his civil rights restored or on some TSA watch list. :uhoh:

Other forum members posted how to get a ATF/PIN do maybe they can give you a link.

Rusty
:confused:


First, it's the FBI not the ATF.

Second, that has absolutely zero to do with the OP's situation.

texasgun
July 23, 2014, 04:30 PM
"ALL DENIED
Transactions will incur a fee of $100.00 and storage fees are effective
immediately ($10.00 per day)."

sounds like a dealer I would NOT do business with :what:

also: was your transaction denied or "canceled" ? I think not having the DL in time makes it canceled rather than denied. Denied = you are legally prohibited from owning a gun, canceled = transaction did get proceed because of expired/missing documents....

moxie
July 23, 2014, 04:34 PM
Concur with sota in#12 above.

A simple phone call should alleviate any concerns on the part of the OP.

NoVA Shooter
July 24, 2014, 04:00 PM
I would think that if the FFL's policy was not agreed too then you're not held to it. 'Agreed to' can be a tricky thing, but if the only contact was by email and those emails didn't contain any language about terms (implicit or direct), you may be in the clear. If you were made aware (even in the slightest way) that terms and conditions existed (e.g. fine print in the email referring to terms and conditions, wording directing you to the website for details, or even if the online site that referred you made mention of them), simply agreeing to do business would probably constitute consent.

Praxidike
July 24, 2014, 04:12 PM
I would think that if the FFL's policy was not agreed too then you're not held to it. 'Agreed to' can be a tricky thing, but if the only contact was by email and those emails didn't contain any language about terms (implicit or direct), you may be in the clear. If you were made aware (even in the slightest way) that terms and conditions existed (e.g. fine print in the email referring to terms and conditions, wording directing you to the website for details, or even if the online site that referred you made mention of them), simply agreeing to do business would probably constitute consent.
It was not listed in their store nor was it mentioned on their when we spoke via email and phone. My new license can in the main today, and I still have my old license. I'm about to head over their now.

Praxidike
July 24, 2014, 04:15 PM
"ALL DENIED
Transactions will incur a fee of $100.00 and storage fees are effective
immediately ($10.00 per day)."

sounds like a dealer I would NOT do business with :what:

also: was your transaction denied or "canceled" ? I think not having the DL in time makes it canceled rather than denied. Denied = you are legally prohibited from owning a gun, canceled = transaction did get proceed because of expired/missing documents....
He said they "denied" me but I'm not sure if he was using technical terms or not. The state police stated that the only issue was with my license, and after that was taken care of, then I was good to go. I'm going to call and ask them about them if the 30 day clause applies to me.

rdhood
July 26, 2014, 10:09 AM
ALL DENIED
Transactions will incur a fee of $100.00 and storage fees are effective
immediately ($10.00 per day). All legal and other fees incurred will be the responsibility of the denied person.
Ownership of the item transfers to <removed> at 60 days OR where the fees incurred equal the value of the item. Any unpaid / unclaimed / or abandoned transfers become the property of <removed> and they can dispose of said gun to pay for the fees.

As someone who was wrongly denied for over a year, this is a bogus requirement. You can be denied through no fault of your own, by a mistake made by a clerk during record transcription. Ask me how I know. The FFL held my gun for a YEAR. I can understand why an FFL would make this rule, but it means that the innocent customer could lose hundreds or thousands of dollars due to this policy. Again, sometimes the only guilty party here is the GOVERNMENT. A policy that punishes the customer for the government's failure is bogus.

Praxidike
July 26, 2014, 04:14 PM
I know... Not being a criminal or fitting any of the other disqualifiers when it comes to firearms, the thought of ever being denigned never crossed my mind. Then when you are denigned for any reason, there's a stigma placed on you, and everyone involved demeanor changes.

rogerstg
August 4, 2014, 09:51 AM
My new license can in the main today, and I still have my old license. I'm about to head over their now.

So what happened? Hope it went well for you.

Praxidike
August 4, 2014, 01:54 PM
So what happened? Hope it went well for you.
I picked the firearm up without any issues. The state police accepted my old divers license to show that I lived in VA 30 days prior to the issued date that's printed on my new license. The dealer did not mention anything about charging me extra fees, and I purposely did not bring it up.

I learned about Virginia's 30 day clause on newly issued or reinstated license, and I learned to not just pay attention to price/transfer fees when searching for an FFL.

rromeo
August 5, 2014, 09:38 AM
So where in Virginia are you?

NoVA Shooter
August 5, 2014, 10:28 AM
...and I learned to not just pay attention to price/transfer fees when searching for an FFL.

QFT...and not just for FFLs. There's been a couple times when I've regretted getting into a business deal after "reading the fine print". :banghead:

All in all, it sounds like the FFL's policy is just there to enforce for dead-beat customers, not for instances like yours where there's a unforeseen/resolvable issue.

Deltaboy
August 5, 2014, 12:36 PM
Glad it all worked out for you.

Praxidike
August 5, 2014, 03:01 PM
So where in Virginia are you?
Hampton Roads area: Chesapeake, VA

Schutzen
August 7, 2014, 01:55 PM
My guess, and this is nothing more than a guess, is that sentence applies to firearms that are ordered in from out of state for receipt of the in state FFL. A $100 fee to undo the transfer and or re-market a firearm because the purchaser is an unqualified buyer is not an unreasonable fee.

Praxidike
August 7, 2014, 02:02 PM
Its my opinion that its dozens of fees that is meant as a way to get the ffl a new gun to sell if a felon failed the check... Normal practice is for the fll to send the firearm back to the seller at the seller's cost, and the seller would bill the customer a restock fee....

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