Non-cannelure bullets a deal breaker?


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tcoz
July 19, 2014, 05:09 AM
I'm getting ready to buy my first batch of bullets for .223 reloading. My question is whether it's really advisable to buy bullets with a cannelure or whether it doesn't make much difference either way. They'll be 55gr FMJBT bullets and I'll give them a slight taper crimp using the Lee Factory Crimp Die. Projected use is general plinking/target shooting at 100yds. I've seen many varied opinions on this, so as usual I'm doing what I usually do in this situation. I'm going to the real experts on the best forum for a final opinion. Thanks guys.

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ColtPythonElite
July 19, 2014, 05:13 AM
Not needed.

rskent
July 19, 2014, 06:41 AM
If you insist on crimping I think you will want a cannelure.

moxie
July 19, 2014, 07:56 AM
They will be fine.

I don't crimp them at all. Not needed. The only time you "need" a cannelure is if you're going to ROLL crimp the case neck into the cannelure.

steve4102
July 19, 2014, 08:05 AM
The Lee Factory Crimp die is Not a Taper crimp die.

It is a collet crimp and it works equally well with both cannelured and non-cannelured bullets.

Reloadron
July 19, 2014, 08:15 AM
You may want to give this old thread a read (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=364894) with a focus on Walkalong's post #8.

If you choose to run with a cannelure bullet design also keep in mind you want your cases well trimmed to the same length. Once your die is set, it's set so any large variations in case length will be apparent. This often leads to some frustration.

Personally as to crimp or not to crimp I generally just use neck tension in my 223 loads for my bolt rifle as well as AR types. Just works for me.

Also note what steve4102 mentions as to the Lee Factory Crimp Die. They are not designed for a taper crimp.

Ron

tcoz
July 19, 2014, 08:17 AM
steve, thanks for clarifying that. I always thought the FCD put on a taper crimp.

gamestalker
July 19, 2014, 08:19 AM
Unless your loading for a tubular magazine or machine gun, crimping bottle neck cartridges is a waste of time. In more than 30 yrs. of reloading bottle necks I have never once crimped them, except for lever guns.

GS

Walkalong
July 19, 2014, 08:53 AM
I have since gone to a very light taper crimp on .223 plinking/blasting ammo with 55 Gr FMJ bullets. Too many bullets with inconsistent cannelure placement (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=120702&stc=1&d=1273145417), or just roll marks instead of a indented cannelure.

I do not crimp anything loaded for accuracy.

A light crimp with the FCD will work just fine, but many people do not crimp them at all. Just make sure your neck tension is good.

Potatohead
July 19, 2014, 09:16 AM
I say it doesn't matter, cannelure or not..I actually shy away from cannelured now. Trying to land the seating depth in the perfect spot, right into the middle of the cannelure kind of inflames my OCD behavior.

steve4102
July 19, 2014, 09:47 AM
thanks for clarifying that. I always thought the FCD put on a taper crimp.

It is in a straight walled pistol die, not in a rifle die. Two different animals.

Note that it will work equally well with cannelure or non-cannelured bullets and case length is not critical as it is with a taper crimp.

http://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/rifle-dies/factory-crimp-die

Lee also claims that the Rifle Factory Crimp die will improve accuracy. I find this to be true as do these guys. Most of those that will preach the evils of the LFCD have never tried it.

http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html

tcoz
July 19, 2014, 09:54 AM
I say it doesn't matter, cannelure or not..I actually shy away from cannelured now. Trying to land the seating depth in the perfect spot, right into the middle of the cannelure kind of inflames my OCD behavior.

That's kinda what I was thinking. Knowing the way I am, I'd try to get it in the perfect spot as well. I'll avoid cannelured bullets, but I'll probably apply a very light crimp with the FCD. Am I correct in assuming that a cannelured bullet must be crimped?

higgite
July 19, 2014, 09:59 AM
I have successfully used both cannelured and non-cannelured bullets in .223 Rem AR and bolt guns without a crimp.

steve, thanks for clarifying that. I always thought the FCD put on a taper crimp.

tcoz, you thought right... kinda sorta. Lee's rifle FCD is not a taper crimp die, but their pistol FCD in semi-auto calibers does taper crimp. The revolver caliber FCDs roll crimp.

Potatohead
July 19, 2014, 10:43 AM
Am I correct in assuming that a cannelured bullet must be crimped?

no...

UziLand
July 19, 2014, 10:57 AM
The only non-cannelure bullets I won't use are 7.62x39. Extreme bullets for example have no cannelure and are very short. Neck tension in that caliber isn't as tight as .223. In AK type weapons the action is too harsh to hold these bullets. I've had bullets both leave the case and get sucked into the case. Don't use them anymore.

tcoz
July 19, 2014, 11:58 AM
Thanks for your help everyone. I'll be buying X-Treme bullets and as UziLand mentioned, they do not have a cannelure which appears to make no difference. All I have to do now is decide whether to use the FCD or not, but since the Lee 3-die sets include it, I can try it both ways and see which way works best. Thanks again.

Potatohead
July 19, 2014, 12:58 PM
Or you could just skip the crimp.

ArchAngelCD
July 19, 2014, 01:49 PM
Is a cannelure necessary, no.
Is a crimp necessary, no.
Will either effect your ammo significantly, no.

Since I throw my completed .223 ammo meant for an AR rifle in a ammo can loose I like to put a light FCD on that ammo. I also use a 55gr bullet with a cannelure because that's usually the cheapest bulk bullets available for AR plinking ammo.

When building .223 ammo for my bolt action rifle I use much better bullets without a cannelure and no crimp. (or just a touch)

ironworkerwill
July 20, 2014, 09:36 PM
A crimp is only 100% needed in lever guns with tubular mags. I've loaded umpteen hundreds of cannelure'd bullets without crimping. Otherwise crimping rifle cartridge will get you buckled shoulders. Unless a fcd is used.

FROGO207
July 20, 2014, 10:07 PM
I tried several hundred rounds of crimped (Lee Factory Crimp) and an equal number of non crimped 55 grain FMJ 223 rounds using the same load, FL sized, and the same lot of bulk bullets at 100 YDS. For me in a variety of firearms both semi auto and bolt/single shot the rounds that were NOT crimped were more accurate. Same results with the 270 and 308 so now I only crimp the ammo for tubular magazine rounds. Other reloaders have reported different results. I would recommend trying it both ways after you work up an accurate load and use the method that is most accurate in YOUR firearms. YMMV

GLOOB
July 22, 2014, 01:39 AM
I do not crimp my 223 jacketed ammo, either. And I shoot it out of an autoloader. Keep an eye on things for the first mag or two, just to be sure.

Elkins45
July 22, 2014, 04:39 PM
Crimp not needed in most cases w/ bottleneck cases. Cannelure doesn't mean you must crimp.

The Hornady .277-130 spire point cannelure is about 1/8 inch above the neck of my 270 cases when seated just back off the lands a bit. I pay no attention to it.

Sunray
July 22, 2014, 04:44 PM
"...except for lever guns..." And cartridges with heavy recoil. For 100 yard .223 ammo it's a waste of time. A crimp is detrimental to accuracy anyway.

steve4102
July 22, 2014, 07:54 PM
From Sierra.

Neck Tension

When we stop to consider the vigorous (read, downright violent) chambering cycle a loaded round endures in a Service Rifle, it becomes pretty clear it suffers abuse that would never happen in a bolt-action. This is simply the nature of the beast. It needs to be dealt with since there is no way around it.

There are two distinctly different forces that need to be considered: those that force the bullet deeper into the case, and those that pull it out of the case. When the round is stripped from the magazine and launched up the feed ramp, any resistance encountered by the bullet risks having it set back deeper into the case. Due to the abrupt stop the cartridge makes when the shoulder slams to a halt against the chamber, inertia dictates that the bullet will continue to move forward. This is exactly the same principle a kinetic bullet puller operates on, and it works within a chamber as well. Some years ago, we decided to examine this phenomenon more closely. During tests here at Sierra’s range, we chambered a variety of factory Match ammunition in an AR-15 rifle. This ammunition was from one of the most popular brands in use today, loaded with Sierra’s 69 grain MatchKing bullet. To conduct the test, we chambered individual rounds by inserting them into the magazines and manually releasing the bolt. We then repeated the tests by loading two rounds into the magazine, chambering and firing the first, and then extracting and measuring the second round. This eliminated any potential variation caused by the difference between a bolt that had been released from an open position (first round in the magazine) and those subsequent rounds that were chambered by the normal semi-automatic operation of the rifle. Measuring the rounds before chambering and then re-measuring after they were carefully extracted resulted in an average increase of three thousandths (0.003") of forward bullet movement. Some individual rounds showed up to seven thousandths (0.007") movement. Please bear in mind that these results were with factory ammunition, normally having a higher bullet pull than handloaded ammunition.

gamestalker
July 23, 2014, 04:05 AM
Unless they are for a machine gun or a tubular magazine, crimping bottle necks is unnecessary, and introduces one more variable to have to address and deal with, for what would other wise be a straight forward process.

If all else is being performed properly, neck tension alone is all that has been needed in 30+ yrs. of reloading.

GS

spitballer
July 23, 2014, 04:43 PM
Interestingly, breaking up the bearing surface with a cannelure may not be such a bad thing. I've never had trouble with cannelures, and in fact many bullet designs incorporate grooves, especially the harder ones. Not exactly sure why, possibly to reduce blow-by.

alex4922
July 23, 2014, 10:07 PM
I know we are not fighting zombies but one aspect of cannalures I didn't see mentioned is terminal effect.

I have read that in the 5.56 the cannalure helps the round to break up and increase target damage. I wouldn't think this changes whether one crimps or not.

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