Bad Gun Store Experience


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Machete
July 19, 2014, 09:49 AM
It has been a long while since I have posted on this forum. I usually just use it as a resource, but I have to relate my recent experience using the FFL of a local gun store.

So I let my buddy know I was going to order an AR from Bud's Gun Shop. I told him to let me know if he becomes aware of any places that have reasonably priced FFLs I can use to transfer the rifle to? Well he happened to be at a local gun store later that week and asked them what their price was. They told him 25$. He relayed that information to me and just to make sure (because that's a great deal) I called them and asked them the same question, they reaffirmed that it was 25$. So I order the rifle from Bud's and have it shipped there. A couple of weeks later they call me to let me to know my rifle is in. I head right over to pick it up. I get in there and the guy at the counter asks me how much they told me it was to use their FFL. I say 25$. He says "it's 50$ now" we changed it a couple of weeks ago." I tell him "you told me it was 25$ when I called". So he says "well... we could have got you this gun. It's 25$ if it's a gun we can't get you, but if we can order it for you it's 50$." So I say "you didn't tell me that." (Here's what really burned me up) He says "you didn't ask". What!!! So I hold my ground and finally he says since they told me 25$ he'll give it to me for that, but for future reference it's 50$ if they can get me the gun.

Then he starts talking about how it's not worth their time to go through all this trouble with an FFL for 25$ (Then don't charge 25$), and how online guns stores like Bud's are killing local gun stores. He keeps telling me to "Just give us a chance". So I tell him, I've bought a pistol and a rifle here and my friend bought me a PSE bow for my birthday from here. He ignores all that and continues with his sob story. Plus he kept lowering his voice to a whisper on and off because his manager was around the corner. I just wanted my freaking AR. Anyway, I got my rifle, but not without a dramatic increase in my blood pressure.

What are your thoughts?

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BullSlinger
July 19, 2014, 10:05 AM
Use a different FFL.

USAF_Vet
July 19, 2014, 10:07 AM
Well, if I'm going to order a gun from my LGS, I'm going to try to get a price match. The walls are filled with various AR style rifles, so generally, dickering on the price from reasonable, to online, is feasible. However, if I order a gun through my LGS, they don't charge a transfer fee as long as I'm paid in full up front.

I don't order many guns, so I don't know if the different transfer fees is a common thing. I'd have brought it up to the manager as casually as possible, since it seemed like the clerks behavior about it was questionable.

On the other hand, he has a point. Transfer fees don't keel the lights on, especially when the transfered gun might even be in stock.

Tirod
July 19, 2014, 10:13 AM
Absolutely normal. The average LGS won't compete with internet sellers, they would have to trim the profit to the bone and likely go under.

We suffer exactly the same issue when our employer outsources our job to another company or even overseas. Same thing, it's cheaper, and it's just business. So he's explaining it exactly the same way you would say it when your boss called you in and said he's laying off your division.

Most Americans never see it both ways - we just want the Low Price Guaranteed. Ok, but that goal usually means somebody won't make a full price sale on it, and that means down the short road, nobody gets paid a decent wage.

From the LGS viewpoint, internet sales are running him out of business, just the same as having a big box superstore come into town. All the mom and pop shops lose business, most go under because the public goes for the price, not the service. It's a proven fact that small shops dry up in a town with a major retailer, and that goes to lumberyards and auto parts houses, too.

In the day our town had a dozen separate independents in both sectors, same as the gun stores, but as the major franchises appeared we all ran, not walked, to their doors and starved out the smaller guys. The majors aren't to blame - WE did it, we voted with our dollars.

Like gas stations, there are now a lot less choices and a lot more control over pricing as the majors don't really like cut throat competition - they are in it for profit. So the margins keep getting pushed up. I see it in my business, I can buy quarts of oil from the local farm and home store, semi synthetic, for $2.25. I can't even get near that price for the exact same item from my chain as an employee. I don't even buy my oil where I work anymore. And it doesn't help when I see an internet vendor selling car parts under my employee discount directly to me. The only disincentive is the time and added shipping costs.

The internet is dramatically changing how retail works and we are just in the first decade of a long war in merchandising. So far the brick and mortars are being forced by normal business pressure to consolidate into chains for the reduced costs and better volume discounts. What's next is them consolidating and some going under - same as Gander Mountain and Montgomery Wards did in their industries. In the long term we will likely see FFL fees rise to the point were it won't make ANY difference. They will charge what the profit would be and we won't be able to do a thing about it.

Not a rosy picture of the future but I see no way out of it from the FFL view. We will keep cheaping out on them, and the reaction as an industry will be to recoupe their lost profit. The reality is that they can and will do it, as they are the only legal conduit thru which we buy firearms.

Except for 80%'s, and 3D printers, which is exactly why we see some much interest in them. As long as things keep getting restricted in normal channels consumers will keep figuring out ways to dodge the system, just like we do with AWB modifications, assisted opening knives, or Skype. And there will be someone out there who will cater to it to under cut the traditional methods of selling.

Which is exactly where you stand in this - you cut out the LGS and kept their profit, so there's no reason to think they are going be slap happy buddies with you over stiffing them. IT's $50 next time, and in five years it could very well be $100.

jerkface11
July 19, 2014, 10:17 AM
Which is exactly where you stand in this - you cut out the LGS and kept their profit,

Which is a load of crap since every gunstore claims they make no money on guns.

Averageman
July 19, 2014, 10:19 AM
The FFL I use for transfers charges $25.00. He and I have been doing business for a decade or so.
The LGS has two dozen AR's on the rack and I usually dont see much on the rack I find interesting. They have ordered a DD M4V7 for me though, but because they are a DD dealer they didn't charge me anything on that one.
Each has their own advantage.

fallout mike
July 19, 2014, 10:22 AM
The op is not complaining about the $50. He's complaining bc they changed their price and tried to charge him more AFTER the fact.

Averageman
July 19, 2014, 10:27 AM
He says "it's 50$ now" we changed it a couple of weeks ago." I tell him "you told me it was 25$ when I called". So he says "well... we could have got you this gun. It's 25$ if it's a gun we can't get you, but if we can order it for you it's 50$." So I say "you didn't tell me that." (Here's what really burned me up) He says "you didn't ask". What!!! So I hold my ground and finally he says since they told me 25$ he'll give it to me for that, but for future reference it's 50$ if they can get me the gun.

I don't know if they changed it or didn't make it clear, either way they should have made it clear to him exactly what and why they made that charge before they accepted the deal.

thefish
July 19, 2014, 10:33 AM
Yep. That's pretty unacceptable. I would have escalated it right to a manager after the clerk started giving you a hard time. The "you should have gotten it from us" is immaterial.

Personally, I think $50 is pretty steep. My guy charges the required $10, plus 5 or 10 for his time. It takes all of 2 minutes to punch the ffl info into the computer. Charging $50 for a transfer does nothing but alienate customers.

fallout mike
July 19, 2014, 10:38 AM
Had one tell me $100 plus 10% of the gun cost once. He closed up shop a year or so later.

Machete
July 19, 2014, 10:39 AM
I understand his point about places like Bud's taking their business, but that doesn't mean he gets to lie to me. I didn't mention everything he said to me because he wouldn't stop talking and it's a lot for me to type. He admitted that gun stores price gouged when the demand was really high not long ago, and now they're paying the price. The guy reminded me of a shady car salesman. Plus, they had two ARs in there, and one was a .308. So it's not like I could have the instant gratification of buying an AR of my choice the same day if I had gone in there in the first place. I did shop around at local gun stores before hand, but couldn't find exactly what I wanted. ARs are very customizable so by ordering online I was assured I could get exactly what I desired. Not to mention I bought a Ruger 22/45 from there years before. I had them order it in for me, I told the guy the barrel length and type and he said Ruger didn't make that combination. Even though as he was looking in the catalog I could see from upside down the exact version I was asking for. When I pointed it out to him he acted like I was insulting his intelligence. The place has a fantastic bow shop though and the guy that runs that is super friendly and helpful.

wideym
July 19, 2014, 10:40 AM
At the shop I work at, we charge $10 for an FFL transfer. It doesn't take much time to log it in or to run a background check. The main reason is that it gets customers in the door. Most AR-15s people order are just stock models, so we make up any potential gun sale with the sale of sights, mags, or ammo.

bannockburn
July 19, 2014, 10:52 AM
If they're going to have to charge more for the transfer fee they should be more upfront with that information. I would prefer to do business with a local dealer but if they're going to make it a hassle (and more expensive), to do so, then I would look for another dealer.

Machete
July 19, 2014, 10:56 AM
At the shop I work at, we charge $10 for an FFL transfer. It doesn't take much time to log it in or to run a background check. The main reason is that it gets customers in the door. Most AR-15s people order are just stock models, so we make up any potential gun sale with the sale of sights, mags, or ammo.
Today 09:39 AM

This guy acted like he was moving heaven and earth for 25$. He told me it's not worth the cost in labor. Even though when I came in the guy was standing there shooting the breeze with another employee.

Pyzon
July 19, 2014, 11:19 AM
I have done the Bud's thing a few times, and the link on their site is very helpful in finding a pre-approved FFL to use.

There are even a couple of FFL's in my area that do it for free for Vets, cops and firefighters, so that is helpful as well.

Like you, I have a problem with stupidity and poor attitudes at the counter, but since I have stood on both sides, there is plenty of that from either side.

I shop where they make me feel wanted and welcome.

larryh1108
July 19, 2014, 11:28 AM
The average LGS won't compete with internet sellers, they would have to trim the profit to the bone and likely go under....In the long term we will likely see FFL fees rise to the point were it won't make ANY difference. They will charge what the profit would be and we won't be able to do a thing about it.

Lots of truths and lots of cynacism here.

Yes, people need to get used to the fact that internet shopping is here to stay. Adapt or close your doors. Join the 21st century or get left in the dust. It's called progress.

Many complain about the big box stores like Walmart, etc. They pushed out the ma and pa stores, right? One stop shopping and cheaper prices. Good for the consumer and bad for ma and pa, right? How many here remember Sears being the #1 retailer for decades? Did they push out the ma and pa stores too? I'm sure they did because business moves forward and those who adapt, thrive and those that don't, perish.

Soon the local LGS will be closed because the old timer inside spent his day BSing with his "regulars" who came in to visit and talk guns, hunting and sports. The new customer was ignored or talked down to. The new, female shoppers were treated like they are stupid while they tried to sell them what was old instead of finding out what the buyer wanted and helped them. They were too busy letting their coffee get cold or it was their move on the checker board. Yeah, gone are the days of the local gun shop. They didn't adapt. They were stubborn know-it-alls and the times swept them under the rug.

You say that the FFLs will get a monopoly and charge huge transfer fees and I say that the market will supply all the cheap transfers we want thru the kitchen table FFLs who work from home and don't have to pay for brick and mortar.

This is the way it's trending so get used to it. Many, many stores are thriving in this time because they figured out how to turn transfers into sales and treating the people who walk in their door warmly and sincerely. I have no use for the crabby old gun store owners who complain all the time about internet sales. Adjust or get off the pot. Retire and let someone else who wants to take care of customers thrive. Adapt or perish. Internet sales are here to stay and it is us, the consumer, who get cheaper prices and better choices.

Machete
July 19, 2014, 11:53 AM
Soon the local LGS will be closed because the old timer inside spent his day BSing with his "regulars" who came in to visit and talk guns, hunting and sports. The new customer was ignored or talked down to. The new, female shoppers were treated like they are stupid while they tried to sell them what was old instead of finding out what the buyer wanted and helped them. They were too busy letting their coffee get cold or it was their move on the checker board. Yeah, gone are the days of the local gun shop. They didn't adapt. They were stubborn know-it-alls and the times swept them under the rug.


That perfectly describes a LGS around here. This old guy has a gun shop attached to his house. Every time I go in there he's BSing with someone and I can never get a word in edgewise about an actual gun I'd like to buy. Plus his store is the size of a phone booth so when people are in there chatting you can't even look at the guns behind the counter or under the glass, which is literally every time I've been in there. His hours are only 4pm-8pm so it's not like you can go in during a slow time. I have managed somehow to buy ammo twice. The one time he gave me the wrong kind but I by the time I realized it I was back in my truck. It was at least the right caliber so rather than play his arbitrary lottery of who get's waited on between long winded conversations with loitering acquaintances I decided to get out of there.

jcwit
July 19, 2014, 12:00 PM
The op is not complaining about the $50. He's complaining bc they changed their price and tried to charge him more AFTER the fact.

Correct!

And there's the old adage "Get It In Writing".

GBExpat
July 19, 2014, 12:21 PM
What are your thoughts?

IMO, all was well until the counter guy tried to charge you the $50 ... and, later, subjected you to continuous whiny "explanation".

If he had asked how much you were quoted, immediately honored that and, while processing the xfer paperwork, succinctly explained their new policy, I would have had no issue with the episode.

==========

For the past ~15 years I have done my transfers with "kitchen table" 01FFL dealers (my original guy moved awhile ago so I had to find a new one).

Whenever I am looking for a specific commercial firearm, I do my research and determine what my best cost window will be. I then contact my 01FFL, tell him what I am looking for and ask for his best OTD cost (whenever he has the time).

Even if he is a little higher, I will always ask him to get it for me. Both of the guys with whom I have dealt, seem to appreciate my approach.

Onward Allusion
July 19, 2014, 12:44 PM
How did Bud's get their start? Weren't they just a little mom & pop brick & mortar?

It's business, plain and simple. You can't compete, you go out of business. You don't offer a specialized service that people demand, you go out of business. You are a little fish in an ocean and don't know how to brand your goods & services, you go out of business. You don't have a vision and know how to act on it, you go out of business. I could go on and on, but y'all get it.

IMO, most LGS's need to go out of business or become better shops. Small brick & mortars need to stop singing the poor-little-me-being-put-out-of-business-by-big-boxes song.

BTW, same freaking philosophy for this country. Evolve or become extinct as the global superpower.

dogtown tom
July 19, 2014, 12:59 PM
Op should have used one of Buds "preferred dealers":
-the list is shown when you check out
-transfer fees are clearly shown
-no surprises

mrvco
July 19, 2014, 01:04 PM
Just give me an honest and fair LGS and I'll buy what I can from them (assuming reasonable prices) and use them to transfer in what I can't. $25 isn't worth blowing a gasket over, especially when you've already bought and paid to ship the gun in, but once that transfer was done, I expect that I would take my business elsewhere.

Mainsail
July 19, 2014, 01:46 PM
He ignores all that and continues with his sob story. Plus he kept lowering his voice to a whisper on and off because his manager was around the corner.Here are my thoughts....

Why weren't you dealing with the manager in the first place. If it were me, the moment he said $50 I would have said, "OK, I'm done with you, where's the manager?"

Lowering his voice tells me one of two things- he's previously gotten into hot water with the manager for not being clear about the policy when people call, or he planned on pocketing the extra $25.

That said, I actually DO see both sides of this. My B&M go-to gun shop has a similar policy because they can usually get you the same gun at or very near the same price if the customer would just ask. When the local authorized Glock dealer mistakenly refused to sell me a Blue Label G20SF because I am retired military, the go-to store cut their price deep and sold me their G20SF for less than $20 above the authorized store's price.

MY ADVICE: Talk to the manager and explain your side, and that you understand and appreciate his side. Let him know the $25 isn't the issue, just that the bait-&-switch is irritating. If he's a good businessman he'll see your side too, and will make an attempt to rectify. If he's a jerk about it, then shake the dust off your feet as you leave, after telling him you won't be back until the inevitable going out of business sale.

EPILOG to the G20SF story above: I returned [to the local authorized Glock dealer's store] some months later to look at a G29SF (because all G20 owners eventually get the 29 as well) and saw the owner behind the counter. I explained what had happened previously and that I wanted to buy the blue label G29SF that they had in stock. He was seriously angry and shouted to the other employees that retired military COULD buy the blue label Glocks. Then he showed me the G29SF.... He never did anything to make it right with me, only expressed anger at the error of the clerks who didn't know the policy. I was put off and have never gone back.

vamo
July 19, 2014, 02:15 PM
There's a couple shops I got that to that altogether refuse to receive from online sales if its a gun they can order.

For some reason I have way more respect for that position than the "we'll do it but we'll jack up the price" route. Of course in both instances I will just take my $25 elsewhere, I find that pawnshops tend to be the most agreeable when it comes to receiving firearms, the ones with modest gun sections will especially just see it as easy money.

Edit: To answer the question telling you one price on the phone and another when you went to pick up is absolutely unacceptable, regardless of the "unfairness" of b&m stores competing with online shops.

frankiestoys
July 19, 2014, 02:28 PM
My local shop charges 15$ yes that's right 15$! They also have a 10 month layaway with 10% down not bad attitudes or wise remarks I couldn't be happier...

Double_J
July 19, 2014, 02:30 PM
The FFL dealers in my area charge $25-35 per transfer, which I find reasonable. We did have one guy who would charge $50 but he ran himself out of business in short order. If one of those shops were to do the "bait and switch" with me I would talk to the manager or owner of the shop post haste. The only thing that keeps a shop in business is CUSTOMER SERVICE a.k.a. a loyal buying community of people. That kind of activity leads to customers leaving the shop behind.

longknife12
July 19, 2014, 02:32 PM
With Colorado and the new local laws, transfer fees/background checks and sales taxes, I'm cheaper to buy local in the first place! I haven't bought on line in several years!
JMO
Dan

BSA1
July 19, 2014, 03:48 PM
I called them and asked them the same question, they reaffirmed that it was 25$.

IMHO this was your mistake. I have a LGS that I have done several transfers though for $25.00. Even though he knows me I always stop in person with the information and confirm he is ok with the transfer. This way there is no confusion or misunderstanding when I pick the gun up. I also pay for the gun myself when I order it so all the dealer has to do is log it in and out.

In the O.P.'s case he would be able to go to the person he talked about the amount of the transfer.

TennJed
July 19, 2014, 03:52 PM
terrible business practice. I would never set foot in there again. If they were good at what they did they would honor the original quote, and explain the issue of having to compete with internet companies. Do it in a respectful way that impresses the customer and wins his business.

The whole idea that a customer OWES you something is a load of crap. The business should impress the customer and win his business. This is a lost art in American small business. People moan and complain about internet companies then act like jerks to the customer and wonder why no one is loyal.

This business had a perfect opportunity to win over a customer and show them why they should go there first, they did the opposite and just showed the customer why they should shop online. When that place goes out of business they have no one to blame but themselves

Machete
July 19, 2014, 04:40 PM
IMHO this was your mistake. I have a LGS that I have done several transfers though for $25.00. Even though he knows me I always stop in person with the information and confirm he is ok with the transfer. This way there is no confusion or misunderstanding when I pick the gun up. I also pay for the gun myself when I order it so all the dealer has to do is log it in and out.

That gun store is like 40 minutes from my house so I didn't really want to drive out there when I could just call. Despite the few problems I've had there I really like the place. It's on the way to my dad's hunting property and I often stop on the way to buy fishing lures or ammo. Plus, like I stated before I really like their archery shop.

If you would've been a fly on the wall you'd have a different opinion, I'm not perfectly articulating what happened. It wasn't a nice way to conduct business. I think he thought because of my age and demeanor he could take me for some more cash to be honest.

CLP
July 19, 2014, 04:43 PM
I avoid transfers to my LGS for this reason. I found a pawn shop owner/FFL in Calera, AL who is friendly and charges 15$ flat. I once ordered three lower receivers and he just said, "ah, $30 bucks is fine"- I insisted on paying 15$ per receiver. I wished he had a better selection of firearms in his store- I'd definitely buy from him just because of his business attitude.

For these LGS, it's a bad business move. Jacking up their transfer fee isn't going to compel me to buy from them, and they lose a reasonable transfer fee for a few minutes of work.

mgkdrgn
July 19, 2014, 05:02 PM
Get yourself an FFL and try it yourself. There is pretty much no money to be made on new guns ... so little that I don't even bother with them unless someone asks me to order one. I can generally buy new guns for less on GunBroker than I can get them for wholesale.

Which is a load of crap since every gunstore claims they make no money on guns.

CLP
July 19, 2014, 06:45 PM
All the more reason to make a buck every way you can, especially by doing quick and easy transfers. Your goal should bring more people into your store. Once there, people buy other things.

RustyShackelford
July 19, 2014, 07:31 PM
With luck & good fortune, I was put in touch with a local FFL holder & small business owner(gun shop). He's a retired USNR officer(JAG office) & a real estate atty too. :D
He has wide connections to many gun dealers & online retailers. The best part is that he only charges $25.00 for FFL fees & works with customers to get the ordered weapons(good QC). :D

My friend purchased a new Ruger LCR .38spl(www.gunsamerica.com ) in 2013 using the FFL holder & had 0 problems. I had plans to buy a police trade-in Glock 23 .40S&W gen 04 a few weeks ago but had to cancel at the last minute. :mad:
I contacted the office & he had no issues or disputes.
If I make any future plans to buy any guns, Id use his office for the transfer & I advise others to go to his business.

skeptical_in_Ohio
July 19, 2014, 09:21 PM
Some examples from my experiences in the local area (SW Ohio)-

In the not too distant past, I have dealt with a very nice guy who runs a home shop rather than a storefront - $15 fees for transfers, scheduled at mutual convenience (never has taken me more than a day or so to get our schedules synced to make the pickup). If it's something he can get I usually offer him the chance to match. At least once I found something cheaper than he could get (let alone make anything on) so he happily took delivery and did the transfer for $15.

There is a local smith who does them for $30 (he is closer). Basically, he's the best around here (and has the 4- to 5-month backlog to prove it), so he's not planning to do a lot of transfers - from what I can tell that's just his opportunity cost to move off finishing somebody's rifle long enough to handle, store and process the transfer.

A newer shop in the area (closer to my house than my first example) was doing $15 transfers coming and going, but they sell range memberships (indoor range) that includes a no-transfer fee benefit. Guess where all my transfers go now :D.

Because they are new they can't get the very best deals from manufacturers and distributors yet (and may never have the volume to truly do so). Hence, they can't match places like Bud's on price (and they do get this) so they go for customer service, a clean, bright, well-lit store and range area and a pretty decent selection. Nobody (and I mean nobody) hits the door without somebody saying hello, and you should see how nice the range officers are to my wife and kids (e.g., a range officer giving my daughter a high five when she had a good grouping). I've never seen them talk down to anybody (e.g., my wife and kids), and they're most tolerant of dumb questions - one can probably guess how I know this :rolleyes:.

They also run classes, have nationally-known individuals in to give shooting clinics, and listen to their customers for ideas. Given that they have the range, people end up spending a lot of time in their store (which obviously helps them move ammo/targets/accessories and as well arms). Smart.

As a result, when I'm looking for something new, I always check their prices before trying someplace else. Yes, I do get stuff elsewhere sometimes too, but the price had better be a LOT better (I generally think in terms of 10%) or something they can't readily get. Since I'm one of those people that actually pay use tax, that particular benefit of shopping online is lost on me.

To me, saving money has utility. However, having a great LGS that provides excellent service, convenience, selection and expertise and a place to shoot when it's either 95 or 15 outside has utility as well. I always to try to think total cost versus total benefit; not just the price on a given purchase. But that's just me.

ridgerunner1965
July 19, 2014, 09:38 PM
to
me 25 buks is all its worth really. its a moneymaker for them becuz they have nothing invested other than a phone call or two. i have a small local smith who works out of a shed behind his house who loves to take 25 buks for tranfers. he does not sell guns except a few used ones on comission. he has to have a ffl becuz he works on guns. that 25 buks is pure gravy to him becuz he did really nothing more than open the door for the ups,fedex guy.and log it in.if yu count the time we bs he has maybe 15 min in that 25 buks. he loves it.

find somebody like that.

orionengnr
July 19, 2014, 09:46 PM
My mom n' pop FFL place still does transfers for $20. I always ask them about any gun I am interested in, and they quote very reasonable prices, if they can get it. I waited almost a year for a Kahr CW380, and they sold it to me for (IIRC) $329. Their price on LCPs is (IIRC) $299.

Every time I walk in, there are 2-3 people either buying something or picking up a transfer. They are not going out of business any time soon. :)

I was looking for a complete AR lower a while back, after I bought a .300BLK upper. I asked about a lower, and she pointed me towards PSA and their Easter sale. I went home an ordered a lower for some ridiculous price, somewhere around $200 delivered.

They shipped it to my local shop, who collected $20. Everyone is happy.

kcofohio
July 19, 2014, 10:14 PM
Our LGS has on their window, "Internet Transfers: $25" It's money in the till.

Sagetown
July 20, 2014, 12:15 AM
Machete said: " What are your thoughts? "

I would find another FFL. Life is hard enough without a run-in with a sour shop clerk. Been there and done that, and the bad memories still linger on.
The LGS folks I shop with now are super. :cool:

Onmilo
July 20, 2014, 12:40 AM
My LGS will order anything 10% + tax & shipping up to $250 and flat $25 + tax, $4 for the call in fee & shipping over that mark.
I know they make money on the shipping charge which runs about $20 but who cares?
If I buy a used gun and pay for it and the shipping direct, they only charge the $25 fee + $4 call in fee is all they collect.

Tirod
July 20, 2014, 09:02 AM
I say that the market will supply all the cheap transfers we want thru the kitchen table FFLs who work from home and don't have to pay for brick and mortar.

Most of them were run off when the BATF raised the fees: The number of “Type 1” FFLs (dealers licensed to sell firearms, as opposed to those licensed to manufacture firearms or sell ammunition or curios) saw an even more dramatic decline since the reforms of the early 1990s. The number of Type 1 FFLs dropped 79 percent between 1994 and 2007 (from 245,628 to 50,630).
From: http://smartgunlaws.org/federal-law-on-dealer-regulations/

FFL's are under no obligationn whatsoever to implement your internet transaction, and due diligence on your part in discussing your transfer is entirely up to you. The usual situation is to get a copy of their license from them to send to the selling dealer, or they send it. Everybody is usually in the loop.

The fee changed "weeks ago." Ok. Sounds like somebody wasn't in contact with the dealer during that time. I don't see that as being in close coordination with them concerning the transaction. It shouldn't have been a surprise from either point of view.

How did that go wrong?

HexHead
July 20, 2014, 09:13 AM
Personally, I think $50 is pretty steep. My guy charges the required $10, plus 5 or 10 for his time. It takes all of 2 minutes to punch the ffl info into the computer. Charging $50 for a transfer does nothing but alienate customers.

Nonsense. My LGS charges $75 for a new gun and $50 for a used one, plus the $10 background check. They're not the only store in town yet do plenty of transfers.

GBExpat
July 20, 2014, 09:22 AM
The fee changed "weeks ago." Ok. Sounds like somebody wasn't in contact with the dealer during that time. I don't see that as being in close coordination with them concerning the transaction. It shouldn't have been a surprise from either point of view.

How did that go wrong?The only reason that it "went wrong" was because the clerk handled it very poorly. "Close coordination" with the Dealer during that time would have been wasted time on both sides of the telephone.

LT.Diver
July 20, 2014, 09:32 AM
I would have charged you double just for putting the dollar sign on the wrong side.

BSA1
July 20, 2014, 10:19 AM
IMHO this was your mistake. I have a LGS that I have done several transfers though for $25.00. Even though he knows me I always stop in person with the information and confirm he is ok with the transfer. This way there is no confusion or misunderstanding when I pick the gun up. I also pay for the gun myself when I order it so all the dealer has to do is log it in and out.

In the O.P.'s case he would be able to go to the person he talked about the amount of the transfer.

Personal relationships build trust and goodwill while avoiding misunderstandings.

That gun store is like 40 minutes from my house so I didn't really want to drive out there when I could just call. Despite the few problems I've had there I really like the place. It's on the way to my dad's hunting property and I often stop on the way to buy fishing lures or ammo. Plus, like I stated before I really like their archery shop.

If you would've been a fly on the wall you'd have a different opinion, I'm not perfectly articulating what happened. It wasn't a nice way to conduct business. I think he thought because of my age and demeanor he could take me for some more cash to be honest.

It sounds like you got the gun for the transfer fee you were wanting to pay. Since you say you really like the place and got what you wanted why are you complaining?

stonecutter2
July 20, 2014, 10:49 AM
Transfers are near pure profit, aren't they?

Hardly any time or effort required for the shop. Mostly just storage taken up.

They can charge whatever fee their local market can bear...but should stand by their word.

I'd write them and explain why you're unhappy. See how or if they respond. If they don't reply, shop and transfer elsewhere.

I've never understood shops that gripe about transfers. If they can't compete with online pricing...at least they're getting the transfer fee and can offer you accessories at a good price. You're already in their store!

Instead of wasting your time with griping, the guy should've said hey, with a transfer you get 10% off any AR accessories in stock. I like PMags. Need any bore cleaner or oil? And so forth.

cat_IT_guy
July 20, 2014, 12:08 PM
Trying to change the price on you after you have committed to using them for the FFL transfer? Sounds pretty shady. I guess there is a small chance it could have been an honest mistake or coincidence that they changed their policy between when you called and when you came in.... but unlikely IMO.

My only experience around with FFL transfers is with a couple of "kitchen table" types that charge $20 and $15 respectively. I guess that fee is basically all profit to them because they dont have the overhead of a storefront. I like that they are cheap, the only thing is you have to be patient when scheduling pickup and paperwork with them as they have their own families and day jobs, so they arent available 24/7 for your convenience. The cost savings is worth the extra day or 2 to me.

Sniper66
July 20, 2014, 12:23 PM
Try looking on your state's web site. Here in Kansas you can find a list of all FFL holders. I called a 3 of them and based on our conversation, I picked one and went to visit him. All of them expressed an interest in handling the transfer. My guy has now handled several transfers for me and charges $20. He keeps excellent records and when I arrive at his house he has everything ready, has looked over the gun to make sure it was not damaged in shipment, we talk guns for awhile, and I go home happy. Does he make money? Not much. He does it because he loves guns, is retired and enjoys having something to do. Another guy quoted me $15, but based on our conversation, I didn't choose him. there are plenty of people who will handle your transfer; make it easy on yourself and choose wisely.

plexreticle
July 20, 2014, 12:50 PM
This doesn't look like a miscommunication to me, OP got snookered for $25. I wonder what other little tricks and scams this LGS pull. Holding guns hostage for exorbitant repair bills?

Even if it was a miscommunication, that falls squarely on the dealer.

BobTheTomato
July 20, 2014, 12:58 PM
In all honesty I think you will see the demise of the local shop replaced with different types. You will have the big box stores, the local guy who has a range, training and a lot of other stuff under one roof, pawn shops, and the kitchen table guy. As others have stated the world has been changed by the internets (sorry I have to add the s). Car dealerships understood that new cars don't make money. You make money doing service work. FFL will need to find niches or ways to get people in the door. We the customer will ultimately benefit from this.

I would imagine those who cling to the old ways wont survive into the future.

mgkdrgn
July 20, 2014, 03:55 PM
Transfers are near pure profit, aren't they?

Hardly any time or effort required for the shop.

(heavy sigh) ... if only that were true ... and my time was worth nothing



Mostly just storage taken up.


Yep, for the next 20 YEARS, and you're expected to be able to produce that paperwork on a moments notice during those 20 years.

jerkface11
July 20, 2014, 04:02 PM
$25 for doing a transfer or $0 for doing nothing. Hard decision.

vamo
July 20, 2014, 04:25 PM
Nonsense. My LGS charges $75 for a new gun and $50 for a used one, plus the $10 background check. They're not the only store in town yet do plenty of transfers.

$85 to buy a new gun online is pretty freaking expensive, their store and they're entitled to charge what they want, but I personally wouldn't be using them for transfers especially since they have the nerve to itemize it as 75 for transfer 10 for bgc.

TennJed
July 20, 2014, 04:41 PM
Nonsense. My LGS charges $75 for a new gun and $50 for a used one, plus the $10 background check. They're not the only store in town yet do plenty of transfers.
I am curious as to how you know they do plenty of transfers

dogtown tom
July 20, 2014, 05:31 PM
Tirod Quote:
I say that the market will supply all the cheap transfers we want thru the kitchen table FFLs who work from home and don't have to pay for brick and mortar.

Most of them were run off when the BATF raised the fees....
Only those not actually engaged in business were "run off".

Doubtful that a fee increase caused the drop in licensees.....since the fee went from $12 a year to $90 every three years. If you can't handle $90 every three years you probably shouldn't be in business anyway.;)

Most likely they chose to not renew because they could not legally operate a business at their licensed premises or refused to obtain a sales tax permit or business license.

BTW...."kitchen table" dealers greatly outnumber "brick and mortar" dealers.;)

mgkdrgn
July 21, 2014, 12:05 AM
BTW...."kitchen table" dealers greatly outnumber "brick and mortar" dealers.;)
Yes we do! :D

PS ... I do business in my garage, not my kitchen table, so ..

ljnowell
July 21, 2014, 02:05 AM
Nonsense. My LGS charges $75 for a new gun and $50 for a used one, plus the $10 background check. They're not the only store in town yet do plenty of transfers.


Just because your guy is more outrageous doesn't make his reasonable. We have three LGS in my area. Two are 25 and one is 35.

1911 guy
July 21, 2014, 06:32 AM
Every time I read one of these threads, it makes me glad to have a good shop within easy driving distance. 25 minutes from my house i have Stockers Gun Shop in Champion, Oh. No, I'm not affiliated in any way, except as a customer. They are seldom the cheapest, but I'll pay an extra 10 or fifteen dollars on a gun or couple percent on ammo to get a big selection, helpful and informed salespeople and no BS about what they can and cannot get for me.

I have walked in and said I wanted a rifle to fill a need. They went through the inventory and found something i was happy with. On another occasion, I walked in and asked for a specific rifle. They didn't have it. Rather than try to get me to buy what was on the shelf, they took my 10% deposit (clearly posted policy for special orders) and placed my order to their distributor.

OARNGESI
July 21, 2014, 09:00 AM
I never understood ffls that complain about transfers if they don't make enough from a transfer either raise there price out stop offering the service.

PabloJ
July 21, 2014, 09:55 AM
This guy acted like he was moving heaven and earth for 25$. He told me it's not worth the cost in labor. Even though when I came in the guy was standing there shooting the breeze with another employee.
They should have charged what they quoted you which was $25. I would not lift a finger for $25 never mind handling paperwork and hustle. I wish they took gun shop out of Bud's it seems to be place like Amazon.com not a true gun shop at all.

Tirod
July 21, 2014, 10:34 AM
When the rules changed, we lost most of the kitchen table dealers, as the rest had to prove a place of business and operating hours. At least that is the continued point by the BATF in issuing licenses.

Further, the few kitchen table dealers don't even advertise. I've yet to see "$25 internet FFL transfers, call 1-myareacodeandnumber." At least that could give the appearance of trying to be in business, which the BATF is attempting to force. Hence the requirement to collect and report sales tax, hold local licenses, etc.

Add those annual fees to holding the FFL, to, it's not a cheap hobby.

As for the OP, he didn't get stuck for the $50 charge, he successfully negotiated with the clerk and got it reduced. Let's not assume said clerk was working entirely on his own recognizance. Again, it was a transaction conducted over weeks of time, and he answers to the owner. It's quite likely getting a gun shipped in without expecting it - just forgot or whatever - made the owner consider the situation. He very well may have instructed his up front guy to ask for $50 in the future, and when the OP showed up, he did. The clerk very well may have been doing his job as required. Some owners with "buddies" who constantly take advantage of the relationship figure out ways to communicate they aren't happy about how they get used, or abused.

We keep banging away at the poor clerk when the real situation was doing his bosses dirty work. Frankly, not every customer is worth all the hand holding and high maintenance they demand - and those of us who actually work retail can give you about 100 pages of our anecdotes justifying what the clerk may have been doing.

Otherwise, it's a he said she said situation, and whether or not the negative future business was intended, that well may be the result. Choose whatever side you like, but don't insist it has to be your way or the highway, as we have no clue or statement from the other side at all. There very well may be details being left off the table.

I still stand on what I said - after weeks of waiting for delivery, more could have been done to nail down the details and prevent it. A third party arranged this deal with only one perfunctory conversation on the part of the OP. Is that the way you would do it?

larryh1108
July 21, 2014, 10:58 AM
Further, the few kitchen table dealers don't even advertise. I've yet to see "$25 internet FFL transfers, call 1-myareacodeandnumber."

I really don't know where you get your information but a simple search of the Springfield, MO area shows A LOT of cheap transfers starting at $15 (see link below). There is also a pawn shop that has no fee ($0) in Springfield.

Maybe you tried to get a home FFL years ago but you cannot get one if your city or town does not allow home businesses or your HOA prohibits it. Getting a business license is cheap and easy if you have no local restrictions to deal with and getting a FFL is also cheap and easy if you pass all the local requirements. I can't count the number I've seen in IL and CT because they are all over the place.

link for Springfield, MO area FFLs with prices and services
There's 100 within 50 miles of Springfield:

http://www.gunbroker.com/FFL/SearchForFFL.aspx?st=Zip%20Code&sv=65806

GBExpat
July 21, 2014, 11:24 AM
I still stand on what I said - after weeks of waiting for delivery, more could have been done to nail down the details and prevent it. A third party arranged this deal with only one perfunctory conversation on the part of the OP. Is that the way you would do it?After confirming with the LGS that xfers were $25 I would tell them that I was going to be having a firearm shipped to them.

If it took weeks to be delivered, I would not be contacting the LGS (they probably haven't even noted that something is supposed to be delivered), at most I would be contacting Bud's Gun Shop about the reason for the delay.

The only time I would keep in touch with the person who was going to receive it and do the xfer would be if they were anticipating the delivery (like my "kitchen table" FFL).

TennJed
July 21, 2014, 11:31 AM
When the rules changed, we lost most of the kitchen table dealers, as the rest had to prove a place of business and operating hours. At least that is the continued point by the BATF in issuing licenses.

Further, the few kitchen table dealers don't even advertise. I've yet to see "$25 internet FFL transfers, call 1-myareacodeandnumber." At least that could give the appearance of trying to be in business, which the BATF is attempting to force. Hence the requirement to collect and report sales tax, hold local licenses, etc.



I am going to disagree with you on the advertising, they advertise where they need to. With the online dealers. If I go to Buds, Impact guns, Davidson's, ect they all have list of FFL's that are on file with them. Put in your zip and it gives you a list. There are a lot of tabletop FFL's near me on file with the major online dealers.

Just like the actual business model of gun stores is changing, so is the advertising. Why should the tabletop FFL advertise in the phonebook or newspaper? They shouldn't. Needless cost with little return.

Adverstive with with the online dealers and have a web page. That is what you need to do, and that is what they ARE doing. It may be regional, but around here tabletop FFLs are growing. You seem to want to resist it, but they tend to provide things a traditional stand alone gun shop can't. Flexible hours

I work a 9-5 schedule. When gun stores are open, I am at work. Buds is open 24-7. My tabletop FFL lets me pick up online transfers at 7 or 8 at night. Even on sundays. He provides good customer service. So does Buds BTW.




I still stand on what I said - after weeks of waiting for delivery, more could have been done to nail down the details and prevent it. A third party arranged this deal with only one perfunctory conversation on the part of the OP. Is that the way you would do it?

Yes, I have ordered a lot of guns online. I send an email when I make the order to my FFL letting them know. They get back to me when it gets there, Doesn't matter if it takes 2 days or 2 months. Why would I call to check it periodically during the wait? That makes no sense on either parties part. That is just wasted time that the FFL could use in revenue generating actions. Should the customer call every day? Every 2 hours? "hello, just wanted to check to make sure you were still going to do the work we agreed on for the same price. Ok thanks, I will call back at 4 to check again"

Frankly, not every customer is worth all the hand holding and high maintenance they demand - and those of us who actually work retail can give you about 100 pages of our anecdotes justifying what the clerk may have been doing.


You say this but then want the OP to take up time and have his hand held throughout the transaction. It is contradictory. Why should the FFL have to take up extra time answering the same uneeded questions?

HexHead
July 21, 2014, 11:48 AM
I was responding to this....

Charging $50 for a transfer does nothing but alienate customers.

Their store is one of the busiest in town. And as to how I know? I know someone that works there.

Ryanxia
July 21, 2014, 11:48 AM
Personally, I think $50 is pretty steep. My guy charges the required $10, plus 5 or 10 for his time. It takes all of 2 minutes to punch the ffl info into the computer. Charging $50 for a transfer does nothing but alienate customers.
What's this required $10? Are you under the impression there is some law on this?

My LGS doesn't typically charge a transfer fee whether private sale or buying online. He also usually is right around the same price as anything I've found online so most of the time I just get it from him.

HexHead
July 21, 2014, 12:06 PM
What's this required $10? Are you under the impression there is some law on this?



Law? No, but in some states the FFL is billed $10 for each background check they run.

Ryanxia
July 21, 2014, 12:07 PM
Law? No, but in some states the FFL is billed $10 for each background check they run.
Gotcha. That's pretty ridiculous.

Vodoun da Vinci
July 21, 2014, 12:28 PM
I can certainly understand the frustration....you ask a question and proceed upon the given information and then they change the parameters of the transaction after you have committed to buy a gun and turn a "cool thing" into a "confrontation" after the fact. That sucks and I'm sorry it happened to you.

I buy used/collectible handguns online and ship them to my LGS/indoor range...it's $20 and they are happy to get it. I bought 5 guns from them last year and rented many others. I shoot there every 2 weeks and they get the range fees from that. I fully support them and have paid "list" to support them when I could have saved $50 - $200 by buying online and shipping it elsewhere. I/We have a relationship based on courtesy and support. We conduct business in a "Hometown" manner with a handshake and have a lot of fun doing it.

Sadly it doesn't seem to work that way many other places.....the Internet ain't gonna go away. So the LGS better learn to deal with it one way or another. Alienating clients is not the solution.

VooDoo

zdc1775
July 21, 2014, 01:37 PM
I don't know about your area but where I live there are about 50 FFL's within 45 miles of my house. They range from one the NRA recognized as being the top seller of Ruger's in the US to several "kitchen table" type guys. Some of them have extremely rude employees and some are extremely polite. So had this happened to me I would never set foot in their door again. And around here prices range from $0-$50 depending on the store. Personally I use one that is free (Athens Guns (http://www.athensguns.com/)) but that has more to do with the fact that he has great customer service and can beat the big guy on most anything I have ever wanted. Just wished he was closer now that I have moved.

dogtown tom
July 21, 2014, 01:51 PM
Tirod When the rules changed, we lost most of the kitchen table dealers, as the rest had to prove a place of business and operating hours. At least that is the continued point by the BATF in issuing licenses.
A "licensed premises" and "business hours" has ALWAYS been a requirement for holding an FFL......and those requirements have ALWAYS been clearly stated on the application.

Further, the few kitchen table dealers don't even advertise. I've yet to see "$25 internet FFL transfers, call 1-myareacodeandnumber."
Look at my sig line below;) I don't have to advertise, word of mouth and referrals from customers keeps me busier than I want to be.

If you go on Gunbroker's "Find an FFL" you'll find thousands of kitchen table dealers........but they aren't listed any differently than any other licensee. To find out whether it's a "brick & mortar" or home based you'll have to Google the address.



At least that could give the appearance of trying to be in business, which the BATF is attempting to force. Hence the requirement to collect and report sales tax, hold local licenses, etc.
Well, they DO have to be "engaged in the business", but there is no requirement to be successful, buy advertising or hang a neon sign out front. If you cannot legally conduct business at your licensed premises you will not be issued an FFL.


Add those annual fees to holding the FFL, to, it's not a cheap hobby.
First, there are no "annual fees".....for the FFL it's $200 for the first three years and $90 for each subsequent three year renewal. I don't know of any state that charges for a sales tax permit, and business licenses aren't required in every city or state (Texas doesn't)

Second, it darn well better not be a hobby. The FFL application clearly states that a Federal Firearms License is NOT for enhancing your personal collection, but for engaging in the business of dealing in firearms.

dogtown tom
July 21, 2014, 02:12 PM
PabloJ ..... I wish they took gun shop out of Bud's it seems to be place like Amazon.com not a true gun shop at all.
You have to be kidding...............:rolleyes:


http://www.thegunwarehouse.com/images/1105_industry_address.png

460Kodiak
July 21, 2014, 03:19 PM
The guy treated you poorly, and the fact that you won't return or do business with them again is likely to hurt them in the long run.

I do understand their point about online sellers putting them out of business. I amost always buy something when I go into my LGS whether I need it or not, since they are great to work with and their prices are reasonable. A box of ammo, anything I kind of need, I try to buy there.

I've bought a bunch of guns from them too.

Praxidike
July 21, 2014, 03:30 PM
If they're going to have to charge more for the transfer fee they should be more upfront with that information. I would prefer to do business with a local dealer but if they're going to make it a hassle (and more expensive), to do so, then I would look for another dealer.
Exactly... It brings customers in the door who may later come back to buy a firearm, ammo, or other accessories. Plus, they're getting $20-$50 profit for only a little bit of their time. It takes more time and money to search, order, get delivered, log, store, price, display, sell, and do the paper work on the firearms that they do sale for only a $20-$50 profit each. I'm just not buying it, and I don't feel sorry for LGS. It's business and they need to adapt or sink with the ship. They should take county wide internet sales, and sell on gun broker. If they choose not to adapt to the changing times, whose fault is that?

CoThG
July 21, 2014, 04:36 PM
It has been a long while since I have posted on this forum. I usually just use it as a resource, but I have to relate my recent experience using the FFL of a local gun store.

So I let my buddy know I was going to order an AR from Bud's Gun Shop. I told him to let me know if he becomes aware of any places that have reasonably priced FFLs I can use to transfer the rifle to? Well he happened to be at a local gun store later that week and asked them what their price was. They told him 25$. He relayed that information to me and just to make sure (because that's a great deal) I called them and asked them the same question, they reaffirmed that it was 25$. So I order the rifle from Bud's and have it shipped there. A couple of weeks later they call me to let me to know my rifle is in. I head right over to pick it up. I get in there and the guy at the counter asks me how much they told me it was to use their FFL. I say 25$. He says "it's 50$ now" we changed it a couple of weeks ago." I tell him "you told me it was 25$ when I called". So he says "well... we could have got you this gun. It's 25$ if it's a gun we can't get you, but if we can order it for you it's 50$." So I say "you didn't tell me that." (Here's what really burned me up) He says "you didn't ask". What!!! So I hold my ground and finally he says since they told me 25$ he'll give it to me for that, but for future reference it's 50$ if they can get me the gun.

Then he starts talking about how it's not worth their time to go through all this trouble with an FFL for 25$ (Then don't charge 25$), and how online guns stores like Bud's are killing local gun stores. He keeps telling me to "Just give us a chance". So I tell him, I've bought a pistol and a rifle here and my friend bought me a PSE bow for my birthday from here. He ignores all that and continues with his sob story. Plus he kept lowering his voice to a whisper on and off because his manager was around the corner. I just wanted my freaking AR. Anyway, I got my rifle, but not without a dramatic increase in my blood pressure.

What are your thoughts?
My local FFL doesn't charge me a transfer fee at all.

Midwest
July 21, 2014, 05:08 PM
No, but in some states the FFL is billed $10 for each background check they run

New Jersey State NICS charges $15 per. And they have limited hours compared to the Federal NICS. They are only open from 9 AM to 8 PM Monday through Friday and only 10 AM to 5 PM on Saturday.

They are CLOSED Sundays and State and Federal Holidays...and whenever the state government shuts down due to weather issues like snow.

The $15 does NOT include the FFL fee

"$59 FFL Transfer fees??? ($40 fee + $15 NICS + 7%tax)"

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/38258-59-ffl-transfer-fees-40-fee-15-nics-7tax/
.

HankR
July 21, 2014, 05:40 PM
or he planned on pocketing the extra $25.

That was my first thought when he first asked what you were expecting to pay (if it was $50 all along he wouldn't have asked you first, just asked for your $50) and then didn't want the manager to know. I'd still call and mention it to the manager. He might want to know if his clerk is extorting an extra $25 on each transfer and/or you might want to know to look for a different FFL if this really is his policy.

still stand on what I said - after weeks of waiting for delivery, more could have been done to nail down the details and prevent it. A third party arranged this deal with only one perfunctory conversation on the part of the OP. Is that the way you would do it?

Frankly, not every customer is worth all the hand holding and high maintenance they demand - and those of us who actually work retail can give you about 100 pages of our anecdotes justifying what the clerk may have been doing.

Well, make up your mind. If I ask once and you tell me it's $25, should I call back 4-5 times and make sure it's really $25, then make sure it's still $25 and them make sure that it's $25 even if I'm left handed? I guess if you expect to have a full time employee on my speed dial you might need to charge a little more. My guy expects me to show up a day or so after the gun shows up and pick the gun up. He normally leaves a cryptic "Hi this is XXX at YYY, I've got a package for Henry" type of phone call on either my work or home phone, but if I don't show up for awhile neither of us gets too stressed about it.

stonecutter2
July 21, 2014, 06:16 PM
(heavy sigh) ... if only that were true ... and my time was worth nothing


Yep, for the next 20 YEARS, and you're expected to be able to produce that paperwork on a moments notice during those 20 years.

So, allow me to ask...how much time are we talking to do a transfer to an individual? It doesn't seem to me (a consumer) that it would take a large amount of time? You hand them the form, they fill it out, you call it in. The firearm arrives, you log it in, the customer comes in, you log it out. Maybe, if you suggest and/or they grab a few things, you make a sale on some accessories or ammo.

As for storage for 20 years, that's an entry in your log book that you're required to store anyways, right? If you have 200 empty rows in that log book you're storing, wouldn't you rather fill those up and make $5000 at the same time? I was referring more to just keeping the firearm stored on the premises until the person picks it up.

If it's such a hassle and expense, why does anyone do transfers then.

happygeek
July 21, 2014, 07:37 PM
The storage for 20 years is referring to the form 4473. If the FFL goes out of business or otherwise declines to renew his license then the 4473s are sent in to the ATF to be kept for the remainder of the 20 years.


I wish they took gun shop out of Bud's it seems to be place like Amazon.com not a true gun shop at all.


Ummm, you do realize that much of what's sold through Amazon.com is coming from a mom & pop store? Just this weekend I ordered a used book on WWI from a small used book store in MI. Amazon makes it easy for the customer to find the exact book they're looking for and allows a small store to sell nationwide.

Sadly the 68 GCA throws up artificial trade barriers when it comes to selling used guns.

Deanimator
July 21, 2014, 08:11 PM
Most Americans never see it both ways
There's only ONE way.

They committed to a price and tried to renege, PERIOD.

Don't say $25 if you don't mean it.

They're LIARS.

Other than the government, I don't do business with liars, and I wouldn't deal with them given the choice.

george burns
July 21, 2014, 08:33 PM
I paid $100 once about 5 years ago, I had no choice. My cousin was doing me a favor and taking a gun from NY to LI to send it to me, and I only had 3 hrs to get an FFL, before he came back to Chicago. The only guy I could find, being new in town wanted $100.00, so I paid it.
It was either pay it or lose the Rifle.
Since I have found 2 guys who get 25 and 30 dollars.

dogtown tom
July 21, 2014, 10:41 PM
stonecutter2

So, allow me to ask...how much time are we talking to do a transfer to an individual?
5-10 minutes, depending on whether the buyer has a CHL or if I have to call FBI NICS.




It doesn't seem to me (a consumer) that it would take a large amount of time? You hand them the form, they fill it out, you call it in. The firearm arrives, you log it in, the customer comes in, you log it out.
What the customer sees of the transfer is the tip of the iceberg.
Opening boxes, logging in firearms, notifying customers that their shipment has arrived........is 45-60 minutes every day (if I'm not disturbed).

The actual transfer (4473/NICS) is about five to ten minutes......each.






As for storage for 20 years, that's an entry in your log book that you're required to store anyways, right?Ha ha! That's the easy part. I have to keep each 4473 on file for twenty years. Storage of 4473's isn't cheap, they take up a lot of room. I cannot store them off site, they must be stored at my premises.




I was referring more to just keeping the firearm stored on the premises until the person picks it up.
Safes, alarms and inventory insurance ain't free.



If it's such a hassle and expense, why does anyone do transfers then. It's not a hassle to me, because that's the majority of my business.





.

Blue Brick
July 21, 2014, 10:48 PM
I always go here....

http://www.ajisports.com/services/

We’ll provide you with a signed copy of our FFL. We are a UPS Shipping Agent so shipping and receiving your firearms and other items is simple and secure. The Best part…we only charge $20 for firearm transfers.

Garyshome
July 21, 2014, 11:56 PM
I picked up a couple of Chinese type 53's from buds...cheap, cheaper then anywhere else. The LGS's around here didn't have any available. transfer was $25.00 at the LGS.

OrangePwrx9
July 22, 2014, 01:24 AM
My LGS charges $50 per transfer. I'm happy to pay it. I want the guy to stay in business. I haven't bought many guns from him, but have done a number of transfers.

The $50 transfers also makes me immune to his attempts to send me on a guilt trip for not buying more from him or not letting him find a gun I want. If he has what I want on the shelf for a decent price, I'll buy it. But all the real duds I've bought were guns that a LGS 'found' for me...so I don't like to go that route.

NoVA Shooter
July 22, 2014, 11:31 AM
What the customer sees of the transfer is the tip of the iceberg.
Opening boxes, logging in firearms, notifying customers that their shipment has arrived........is 45-60 minutes every day (if I'm not disturbed).

The actual transfer (4473/NICS) is about five to ten minutes......each.



45-60 minutes per gun? Or is that 45-60 minutes for all inventory that has come in that day (transfers, new store stock, etc...)? How long would you say is the actual time per gun for a transfer?
From my limited experience (I'm not an FFL but I have helped a friend with a couple):
Open box and take gun out of box: 1 minute
Log the gun: 5 minutes
Store the gun: 1 minute
Notify the customer: 2 minutes
Retrieve gun from storage: 1 minute
Verify the 4473 and call in the check: 10 minutes (most of that time is waiting for the response)
Collect fee: 1 minute
File paperwork: 1 minute
Log out the gun: 1 minute

That's 23 minutes total and those are generous times for these actions. Not to mention that with bulk, these times will be less (e.g. if you have 5 guns come in at the same time, storing and logging them in will take less time per gun as the overhead for each activity will be shared across 5 guns). At $25 a transfer, that's a little less that $75 an hour. I'd be very curious to know if these numbers are close for other FFLs.


Ha ha! That's the easy part. I have to keep each 4473 on file for twenty years. Storage of 4473's isn't cheap, they take up a lot of room. I cannot store them off site, they must be stored at my premises.

This is a business overhead cost. If a person sells guns (and if you do transfers, you have an FFL and by law, must sell guns) they're doing all this anyway.


Safes, alarms and inventory insurance ain't free.


Again, if a person is in the business of selling guns (requirement for FFL), they should have/need this regardless if they do transfers or not.

george burns
July 22, 2014, 11:45 AM
All businesses have paperwork, plus you have to keep all written records of financial transactions for most businesses, so you can't make that an issue.
Every business I had involved crates of paperwork contracts, employee insurance files etc. etc that required space to keep them in. That's the cost of doing business. If you don't want to offer transfers just price yourself out of the market. Personally I would do them all day.
It took 5 minutes to buy a gun on Saturday, I could learn to love doing that every 5 minutes for 25 to 50 bucks a smack.
Either that or price match.

dogtown tom
July 22, 2014, 01:30 PM
NoVA Shooter Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom View Post
What the customer sees of the transfer is the tip of the iceberg.
Opening boxes, logging in firearms, notifying customers that their shipment has arrived........is 45-60 minutes every day (if I'm not disturbed).

The actual transfer (4473/NICS) is about five to ten minutes......each.
45-60 minutes per gun?
No, "logging in firearms" implies more than one. ;)




How long would you say is the actual time per gun for a transfer? I've never put a stopwatch and calculator to it but it's pretty much what I wrote above..........45-60 minutes for unpacking and logging in firearms, 5-10 minutes for the 4473/NICS....each.




...... At $25 a transfer, that's a little less that $75 an hour. I'd be very curious to know if these numbers are close for other FFLs.
Sometimes I do ten transfers an hour @ $20 each......that doesn't mean I make $200 an hour. You state a common misconception......that the hourly earnings can be calculated based on the number of transfers. What your calculations do not show are the hours NOT spent directly with the customer.
Answering the phone, answering emails, chasing down other dealers for missing information.




Quote:
Ha ha! That's the easy part. I have to keep each 4473 on file for twenty years. Storage of 4473's isn't cheap, they take up a lot of room. I cannot store them off site, they must be stored at my premises.
This is a business overhead cost.....
No kidding?:rolleyes:
The point you missed is that storage of 4473's and other records isn't free, it's another business expense that eats into the financial goldmine of doing transfers.




If a person sells guns (and if you do transfers, you have an FFL and by law, must sell guns) they're doing all this anyway.
Please show me tht Federal law (or ATF regulation) that requires me to sell guns.:scrutiny:





Quote:
Safes, alarms and inventory insurance ain't free.
Again, if a person is in the business of selling guns (requirement for FFL), they should have/need this regardless if they do transfers or not.
And again, I was pointing out business expenses that occur whether yo are a home based dealer or a brick and mortar. Quite a few people think a home based or kitchen table dealer has no overhead, and that transfers "are gravy" for all dealers. that simply isn't true.

And again, please let me know more about that federal law requiring me to sell guns.:D



.

Midwest
July 22, 2014, 02:41 PM
And again, please let me know more about that federal law requiring me to sell guns.:D



I think he means using the FFL as a means to acquire firearms purely for personal use.
.

NoVA Shooter
July 22, 2014, 03:16 PM
No, "logging in firearms" implies more than one. ;)

:o Fair enough. The point being is that the rest of the iceberg that is a transfer, isn't 45-60 minutes :)




I've never put a stopwatch and calculator to it but it's pretty much what I wrote above..........45-60 minutes for unpacking and logging in firearms, 5-10 minutes for the 4473/NICS....each.


"...actual time per gun for a transfer" implies the time it takes to do a transfer for a single gun (and as you so clearly pointed out, the 45-60 minutes were for firearms"). ;)



Sometimes I do ten transfers an hour @ $20 each......that doesn't mean I make $200 an hour. You state a common misconception......that the hourly earnings can be calculated based on the number of transfers.

Well, technically, you do make $200 an hour, just gross profit, not net profit. I never said you make a profit of $75 and hour. Just that you bring in $75 an hour. If that is more than what you pay an employee (at their full burdened rate plus pro-rated overhead), then you're making a profit. As with any other business, if a person bringing in $75 an hour doing activity ABC can be bring in more than that doing activity XYZ, then of course the business plan needs to be re-evaluated.


What your calculations do not show are the hours NOT spent directly with the customer.
Answering the phone, answering emails, chasing down other dealers for missing information.

In relation to a specific transfer? If so, how often do these things happen? I genuinely want to know because that kind of information makes a difference in the perceived impression of what is involved in a transfer. For my part, I'm only talking about the cost to do a specific transfer, not run other aspects of the business.


No kidding?:rolleyes:
The point you missed is that storage of 4473's and other records isn't free, it's another business expense that eats into the financial goldmine of doing transfers.

Nope, didn't miss that. My point is that it's a business expense that eats into the financial goldmine of having an FFL.




Please show me tht Federal law (or ATF regulation) that requires me to sell guns.:scrutiny:

Yep, got me there. In my rush to post, I didn't review what I had written. My brain was off on another tangent I came off like a idiot. Damn brain.... :banghead:


And again, I was pointing out business expenses that occur whether yo are a home based dealer or a brick and mortar. Quite a few people think a home based or kitchen table dealer has no overhead, and that transfers "are gravy" for all dealers. that simply isn't true.


And, again, I was pointing out that that cost is a part of having an FFL (and all other licensing that goes with owning/running a business) and is spread across all sales/transfers. I agree that it is not correct or fair to assume that a transfer is pure gravy. However, for brick and mortar dealers, most of the overhead associated to a transfer is already accounted for in the fact they are running a business (their employees are being paid regardless if they're standing around doing nothing or doing a transfer. The rent has to be paid whether or not any transfers are done. Guns have to be securely stored regardless if the gun is store stock or a transfer. Etc, etc...) For kitchen table dealers, yes more of the overhead has to be taken into account from the business of doing transfers but let's be realistic, if done correctly, it's not that much and very little is a re-occurring expense (e.g. a safe is a one time purchase that will be paid of eventually).

Listen, we both know that you far and away more knowledgeable than I on FFLs and transfers. That’s the reason I find it very useful to get insights from you and other FFLs; I've done a lot of research and some observation but nothing beats information form the horse's mouth. My overall argument is with the FFLs that say “$25 is not worth doing transfers”, or “it takes a lot more the 20 minutes to do a transfer”. I just don’t see it and would like to know actual facts that support these statements.

dogtown tom
July 22, 2014, 05:18 PM
NoVA Shooter Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom View Post
No, "logging in firearms" implies more than one.
Fair enough. The point being is that the rest of the iceberg that is a transfer, isn't 45-60 minutes
Are you saying that I'm wrong?:scrutiny:
Seriously, for someone that isn't a dealer and has never done a firearm transfer you have some nerve to dispute what I wrote. You most certainly don't know jack squat about MY transfer business.

Monday-Saturday I spend at least 45 minutes each day opening boxes and logging in firearms............that's plural, meaning more than one and on average eight a day.




Quote:
I've never put a stopwatch and calculator to it but it's pretty much what I wrote above..........45-60 minutes for unpacking and logging in firearms, 5-10 minutes for the 4473/NICS....each.

"...actual time per gun for a transfer" implies the time it takes to do a transfer for a single gun (and as you so clearly pointed out, the 45-60 minutes were for firearms").
I don't know who you are quoting, I didn't make that statement in red. :rolleyes:



Quote:
Sometimes I do ten transfers an hour @ $20 each......that doesn't mean I make $200 an hour. You state a common misconception......that the hourly earnings can be calculated based on the number of transfers.
Well, technically, you do make $200 an hour, just gross profit, not net profit.
No, If I made $200 an hour I would quit my teaching job. Simply collecting $200 in fees in sixty minutes doesn't mean someone earns $200 an hour.....that's just ridiculous.





I never said you make a profit of $75 and hour.
Neither did I.;)
But you did write "At $25 a transfer, that's a little less that $75 an hour..."




If that is more than what you pay an employee (at their full burdened rate plus pro-rated overhead), then you're making a profit. As with any other business, if a person bringing in $75 an hour doing activity ABC can be bring in more than that doing activity XYZ, then of course the business plan needs to be re-evaluated.
Since I have no employees, this is irrelevant to my business.





Quote:
What your calculations do not show are the hours NOT spent directly with the customer.
Answering the phone, answering emails, chasing down other dealers for missing information.

In relation to a specific transfer?
Well, yeah, pretty nearly every transfer involves my customer asking me (via phone or email) to send my FFL to the seller.

Occasionally I get a mystery gun.....no shipper ID, no buyer ID. Then I get to play internet detective.




If so, how often do these things happen?
I get 15-20 phone calls and 30-40 emails a day that are firearms business related.



I genuinely want to know because that kind of information makes a difference in the perceived impression of what is involved in a transfer. For my part, I'm only talking about the cost to do a specific transfer, not run other aspects of the business.
Transferring a gun bought on Gunbroker is exactly the same process as selling a gun the dealer has in inventory. The paperwork is identical.







Quote:
No kidding?
The point you missed is that storage of 4473's and other records isn't free, it's another business expense that eats into the financial goldmine of doing transfers.

Nope, didn't miss that. My point is that it's a business expense that eats into the financial goldmine of having an FFL.
That's funny.






Quote:
And again, I was pointing out business expenses that occur whether yo are a home based dealer or a brick and mortar. Quite a few people think a home based or kitchen table dealer has no overhead, and that transfers "are gravy" for all dealers. that simply isn't true.



My overall argument is with the FFLs that say “$25 is not worth doing transfers”, or “it takes a lot more the 20 minutes to do a transfer”. I just don’t see it and would like to know actual facts that support these statements.
Customer buys Glock 19 at LGS for $499 (the minimum advertised price that Glock /inc allows) PLUS sales tax. The dealer makes about $60 gross profit on the sale.
vs
Doing a transfer for $25

Which would you prefer?;)


Edited to add:
I just ended the FOURTH phone call of the day from the SAME person. Unbelievably, the same guy sent me FOUR emails today as well!
The first call was to ask "is it there yet?" )It wasn't.
The second was to ask if it was "okay to pick it up at 830pm" when he was told I was only available 5-8pm today.
The third was to call and ask "how about 430pm" again I told him "5-8PM".
The fourth call was to confirm his email where he said he would be here at 6pm.:banghead:

Despite being given detailed, easy to understand instructions on how to pick up his firearm, including a Google map to my home.....he didn't read anything beyond "Your firearm has arrived..."

I fully understand why some gun stores refuse to do transfers. This guy may be a really nice guy, but I don't need $10 that bad.:(

NoVA Shooter
July 23, 2014, 11:01 AM
Are you saying that I'm wrong?:scrutiny:
Seriously, for someone that isn't a dealer and has never done a firearm transfer you have some nerve to dispute what I wrote. You most certainly don't know jack squat about MY transfer business.

Monday-Saturday I spend at least 45 minutes each day opening boxes and logging in firearms............that's plural, meaning more than one and on average eight a day.

Sigh...We obviously are not communicating correctly on this point. I'm not disputing the fact that you spend 45-60 minutes opening and logging in firearms. I'm, simply asking how long does it take to open and log (on average) a firearm. So, if your 45-60 minutes involves 10 guns, that would mean, per firearm, you spend 4.5 to 6 minutes opening and logging a firearm. What I am missing from your data (which again, I'm very appreciative that you're sharing this info), is how many firearms are involved. From my observations, to open a box with one gun and to log that gun takes about 5 minutes. If I had 10 boxes, I would estimate that it would take 50 minutes to open and log all 10 guns. When I get my metrics for doing transfers, part of the data is the amount of time it takes to open a log a gun. I need to use the time per gun (5 minutes), not the time I spend each day opening and logging all guns (50 minutes).


I don't know who you are quoting, I didn't make that statement in red. :rolleyes:

I was quoting myself (in the same manner you did to point out that I had misread what you said ;)). That was the question I asked and the answer I got was 45-60 minutes for firearms.


No, If I made $200 an hour I would quit my teaching job. Simply collecting $200 in fees in sixty minutes doesn't mean someone earns $200 an hour.....that's just ridiculous.


My whole point in bringing up a monetary example was to show a rate of return (based on an extrapolated rate). Based on business process analysis (as an example), if a transfer (from start to end) takes 6 minutes, and a business gets $20 per transfer, then the value of doing transfers is $200 an hour. That doesn't mean the business will realized that full rate all the time (i.e. there may not be 40 hours a week per employee full of transfers). But it does mean the business makes a gross profit of $200 for every hour that transfers are done. If the overall net profit is higher than the net profit for doing other sales, the business should work to maximize the number of transfers they are doing so they CAN realize the full rate.

My business process analysis suggests that the most transfers I could do in a standard 40 hour work week would be 90 (initially). In my market analysis, the data suggests that I could maintain 10 transfers a week at $25 per transfer. That's $250 a week. $2250 a week if I can max out. However, maxing out is too difficult to do to worth me quitting my day job. Don't get me wrong, I would love the extra $250 a week and those 10 transfers a week could be done outside of my normal job hours, but there are many other factors right now that make it difficult for me to start that business. :(


Since I have no employees, this is irrelevant to my business.

I was using employee loosely to mean someone doing work for a business. Regardless of semantics, I'm trying to be broad in the discussion and not limit it to just kitchen table or brick and mortar. :)


Well, yeah, pretty nearly every transfer involves my customer asking me (via phone or email) to send my FFL to the seller.

See, that's one thing I didn't take into account that is related to an actual transfer. Thanks.


Occasionally I get a mystery gun.....no shipper ID, no buyer ID. Then I get to play internet detective.

I get 15-20 phone calls and 30-40 emails a day that are firearms business related.


That's good to know and something that adds to the cost of doing business for sure.

Customer buys Glock 19 at LGS for $499 (the minimum advertised price that Glock /inc allows) PLUS sales tax. The dealer makes about $60 gross profit on the sale.
vs
Doing a transfer for $25

Which would you prefer?;)


Well, the answer isn't that simple. How much time was put into selling the Glock? How long did you have money tied up in the Glock waiting for it to sell? Would you have lost a sale because you did a transfer instead? What are the net profits?

I'm not saying it's better to do a transfer than to make other sales. If I can make a NET profit by selling a Glock that is higher than the NET profit of doing a transfer and if there is a conflict between the two (I can do only one or the other due to some constraint), then by all means, I'll sell Glock and turn away the transfer (I would prefer to do both). But how many gun shops have 100% conflict where doing transfers would interrupt higher profit (net) gun sales all the time (this does not mean every minute is spent selling guns. I do realize that even 2 hours of down time spread across an 8 hour day may not allow for doing transfers)? If it doesn't happen all the time, a good business owner should be able to mitigate them, allowing the business to do both. If in fact, the business is so busy that guns are being sold so much that there's not time for transfers, maybe it's time to expand.


Despite being given detailed, easy to understand instructions on how to pick up his firearm, including a Google map to my home.....he didn't read anything beyond "Your firearm has arrived..."

I fully understand why some gun stores refuse to do transfers. This guy may be a really nice guy, but I don't need $10 that bad.:(

Fair enough. But I would assume that you wouldn't stop doing transfers just because of the few people who are like that?

Tirod
July 23, 2014, 12:10 PM
I just ended the FOURTH phone call of the day from the SAME person. Unbelievably, the same guy sent me FOUR emails today as well!
The first call was to ask "is it there yet?" )It wasn't.
The second was to ask if it was "okay to pick it up at 830pm" when he was told I was only available 5-8pm today.
The third was to call and ask "how about 430pm" again I told him "5-8PM".
The fourth call was to confirm his email where he said he would be here at 6pm.

This is a great example of what some suggested I meant by having coordinated a sale with an FFL. Nope, of course not. But if the OP had done more than wait for "weeks" to finalize the sale, then, again, there would have been less miscommunication and more understanding.

Second, this is EXACTLY the kind of customer that many in retail have to put up with. His kind if business isn't worth the effort. I've been in retail off and on over 40 years, and the above is the kind of thing that has been growing exponentially for a decade. It's entirely a "I WANT IT NOW!" immature shopping experience.

It's also the kind of stuff that clogs the email system, which backs up response time even more, and why so many in business are now bailing out of that communication method because it's extremely labor intensive. "YOU HAVEN'T RESPONDED TO THE LAST THREE EMAILS I SENT TODAY!" is blatantly overdoing it. Pure harassment on the senders part.

Let's not so easily overlook the numbers of FFL's that now remain in the circuit - it was all too readily glossed over. We lost about 200,000 of them, it's now down to less than 65,000. And while some might find ads on one internet brokerage site, the reality is that ads aren't posted in mass media. Very few in the classified, no window posters in 12" letters, etc. It shouldn't be necessary to mention it, most social websites and similar media prohibit the mention of a firearms transfer.

If someone insists I have to boot up my computer or have the instant access to a smart phone (and the $500 a year it costs) then I can only conclude you don't mind seeing sales restricted to only those who can afford it. If your sales and transfers are limited to word of mouth, great, but there is no way someone outside that network of mutual backscratchers gets the word out to new buyers. It's limited, again, by having zero notice to the public. And the public in this case shouldn't have to jump thru hoops if the FFL is really wanting to do transfers, right? His store would be the first one recommended up front. And that only happens if he advertises thru mass media.

A quick drive by of the major LGS in my area - NO notification of whether they take on any FFL internet transfers. In fact, the one guy locally who does for me doesn't even advertise he IS an FFL. His inventory and visible business would seem to be C&R based. There are no modern firearms whatsoever in the store.

On the other hand, walk into the other LGS locally and it's been my experience that the store clerk mentioned by the OP works there - they brusquely avoid the conversation and steer it toward generating an immediate cash sale. If you buy, sell, and trade guns all day it's no wonder an FFL will be happy to handle your business, but the public walking in unannounced aren't getting those privileges extended to them. With the loss of 200,000 kitchen table FFL's, the average guy no longer has a friend who knows someone. He has to deal with a storefront dealer and that operation want's a bigger piece of the pie in an intensively competitive shopping environment.

For all he knows you would email him and call half a dozen times daily until it arrives, only to show up and hour early and hound him. Which is exactly what happens in the retail environment I work: "The part will be here at 3PM." At 11:30, the customer arrives, leaves disappointed, and demands you call him when it arrives, all the while not paying attention to the long line of customers who will take up so much of your time that a return call isn't going to happen.

What I'm reading are a large number of consumers demanding they be handled with Nordstrum class service from a business that can't deliver chauffered pick up and delivery at an appointed hour. It's entitlement elitism, and it's what is making the retail industry more difficult daily for those with some experience still left in it - because we somehow dodged the ACA getting us fired to be replaced by two part timers with little to no training or motivation.

If you want to suggest that your specific situation is the norm, it's not, and the industry isn't reaching out to the internet buyer who's unknown to them. It's a restricted access system now, just what the BATF wanted, and suggesting there's no problem means that some of you are getting used to the pot getting warmer.

200,000 less FFL's is now affecting the market, and there very much is a industry wide reluctance to handle internet transfers.

Gregaw
July 23, 2014, 01:26 PM
I think part of the problem with these transfer fee discussions is that most of us believe it is an injustice that we have to go through someone with an FFL in the first place in order to purchase a firearm. We’re not happy that the government is forcing this on us, which makes us very sensitive when we feel we’re also being charged too much (true or not). Since it is the law I’m happy I have some good people to do the transfers for me, but I’m still not happy about the unnecessary cost of being forced to involve you in the first place.

As the consumer, we should be careful to direct our ire at the lawmakers (and voters who put them there), not the gun shop owners, who are mostly really good people.

As the gun shop owner, please keep in mind that we consumers are already angry that we can’t have the gun shipped to our door. Most other businesses don’t have the opportunity to charge a fee to transfer a competitor’s product to the local consumer. Try to avoid the sense that you are penalizing us for not buying the gun from you when we need a transfer. (I don't think most do this, but I've seen/heard that attitude from a few) Then hopefully we can keep our anger directed at the right people.

NoVA Shooter
July 23, 2014, 03:57 PM
Very well said Gregaw.

It's a bad system that we're all forced into. I completely agree that a LGS should be fairly compensated for their time and effort, but they do need to remember that if not for this bad law, a lot of people who are just coming in for a transfer wouldn't even set foot in the store otherwise. What other business has (to some extent) government mandated foot traffic? My advise would be that LGSs take this as an opportunity to turn a transfer into a customer.

jmace57
July 23, 2014, 04:01 PM
This is exactly my experience as well. As long as I will coordinate schedule, all is well. He is a nice guy and enjoyable to talk to

dogtown tom
July 23, 2014, 07:27 PM
Tirod Quote:
I just ended the FOURTH phone call of the day from the SAME person. Unbelievably, the same guy sent me FOUR emails today as well!
The first call was to ask "is it there yet?" )It wasn't.
The second was to ask if it was "okay to pick it up at 830pm" when he was told I was only available 5-8pm today.
The third was to call and ask "how about 430pm" again I told him "5-8PM".
The fourth call was to confirm his email where he said he would be here at 6pm.

This is a great example of what some suggested I meant by having coordinated a sale with an FFL.
It WAS coordinated.......but there are some people that just refuse to follow simple instructions.:D



Second, this is EXACTLY the kind of customer that many in retail have to put up with. His kind if business isn't worth the effort. I've been in retail off and on over 40 years, and the above is the kind of thing that has been growing exponentially for a decade. It's entirely a "I WANT IT NOW!" immature shopping experience.
Exactly. I have a soccer game tonight so I'm not available this afternoon/evening to do transfers. But did that stop one guy from coming over anyway? Of course not. I didn't get to the door fast enough so he called me...."Hey Tom, I know your email said you weren't available anytime Wednesday, but since I'm going out of town tomorrow I just wanted to make sure you weren't available this afternoon". :banghead: It's difficult to not just say "Are you an idiot?"





It's also the kind of stuff that clogs the email system, which backs up response time even more, and why so many in business are now bailing out of that communication method because it's extremely labor intensive. "YOU HAVEN'T RESPONDED TO THE LAST THREE EMAILS I SENT TODAY!" is blatantly overdoing it. Pure harassment on the senders part.
How true. I don't need tracking info on packages, I don't need daily updates on your packages progress through the UPS/FedEx/USPS system,. I don't need a heads up that your gun will arrive today nor is "FYI FedEx shows it in Paducah"............I'll know your gun has arrived when I pick up the box.

Add those incessant "Obama's Secret Plan to Ban Guns", "Obama Secret Presidential Order Banning Ammunition" and the like......it's caused me to add one customer to my spam list.

Let's not so easily overlook the numbers of FFL's that now remain in the circuit - it was all too readily glossed over. We lost about 200,000 of them, it's now down to less than 65,000.
We didn't lose any gun dealers.....what was lost was 100,000 guys who LIED on their FFL application. Either they couldn't legally conduct business at their premises, weren't in possession of business permits or sales tax certificates or they were using their FFL for personal use instead of operating as a business.

It's a bit of a stretch to say those guys were "lost". They were cheats who got caught.




And while some might find ads on one internet brokerage site, the reality is that ads aren't posted in mass media. Very few in the classified, no window posters in 12" letters, etc. It shouldn't be necessary to mention it, most social websites and similar media prohibit the mention of a firearms transfer.
Seriously, who finds it impossible to find a dealer to do a transfer?
There are umpteen websites that will show you everyone in your own zipcode.


If someone insists I have to boot up my computer or have the instant access to a smart phone (and the $500 a year it costs) then I can only conclude you don't mind seeing sales restricted to only those who can afford it.
Sorry, but I have never heard anyone use that as an excuse. It's pretty funny.:rolleyes:



If your sales and transfers are limited to word of mouth, great, but there is no way someone outside that network of mutual backscratchers gets the word out to new buyers. It's limited, again, by having zero notice to the public. And the public in this case shouldn't have to jump thru hoops if the FFL is really wanting to do transfers, right? His store would be the first one recommended up front. And that only happens if he advertises thru mass media.
Are you serious? :scrutiny: I suppose you think a newspaper ad or a Yellow Pages ad is effective?



With the loss of 200,000 kitchen table FFL's, the average guy no longer has a friend who knows someone. He has to deal with a storefront dealer and that operation want's a bigger piece of the pie in an intensively competitive shopping environment.
Horsehockey.
"Kitchen table" dealers outnumber brick & mortar dealers by a wide margin.







200,000 less FFL's is now affecting the market, and there very much is a industry wide reluctance to handle internet transfers.
Absolute malarkey.
Let us know how you think 99.9999999% of Gunbroker transactions are handled. :rolleyes:

dogtown tom
July 23, 2014, 07:32 PM
NoVA Shooter .... What other business has (to some extent) government mandated foot traffic?
Well off the top of my head:
Alcoholic Beverages-"State Stores" where liquor sales are controlled directly by the state. In other states only those stores with a beer, wine or liquor permit can sell those items.
Cigarettes- some states regulate those sales
Car "Safety" Inspections- can only be done in authorized locations.

There's more..........

happygeek
July 23, 2014, 10:08 PM
I think part of the problem with these transfer fee discussions is that most of us believe it is an injustice that we have to go through someone with an FFL in the first place in order to purchase a firearm. We’re not happy that the government is forcing this on us, which makes us very sensitive when we feel we’re also being charged too much (true or not). Since it is the law I’m happy I have some good people to do the transfers for me, but I’m still not happy about the unnecessary cost of being forced to involve you in the first place.

As the consumer, we should be careful to direct our ire at the lawmakers (and voters who put them there), not the gun shop owners, who are mostly really good people.


+100


Well off the top of my head:
Alcoholic Beverages-"State Stores" where liquor sales are controlled directly by the state. In other states only those stores with a beer, wine or liquor permit can sell those items.


Those are states though, not Federal. WA used to do that, we just recently voted that system out. Now the tax is too high and people buy it from OR (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10000872396390444772804577621673117805522). People drive down to Portland to buy smokes and go on shopping trips too.

That's all tax stuff though.

Contrary to what Bloomberg would have you believe though, you can't legally go buy a handgun in OR as a WA resident, even if you pass the background check. Even if you actually report the purchase to WA and pay the usage tax. I'm not sure how that makes any sense.

NoVA Shooter
July 23, 2014, 11:38 PM
Well off the top of my head:
Alcoholic Beverages-"State Stores" where liquor sales are controlled directly by the state. In other states only those stores with a beer, wine or liquor permit can sell those items.
Cigarettes- some states regulate those sales
Car "Safety" Inspections- can only be done in authorized locations.

There's more..........

Why so confrontational? I never said it was the only one. The question was rhetorical in order to demonstrate the rarity of the situation.

Also, none of those examples require you to go to a 3rd party store to finish the purchase you've made with another vendor. Yes, if I want to buy alcohol or cigarettes, I have to go to a store (for the most part). But as there is a need to involve a vendor (regardless if that vendor is online or a brick and mortar store), the functional process of buying the product remains the same. I don't buy cigarettes from Walmart then have to go to Costco to finish the transaction. With guns, we are force to go to a third party that has nothing to do with the actual sale.

As for car safety inspections, that's a physical service that has to be done in person, regardless if there was authorized locations or not (plus, I don't get an inspection from one vendor and then have to go to a second vendor to complete it). Apples and oranges...

Even if you can think up a dozen legitimate examples, it's still insignificant compared to how many business DON'T. Quite honestly, I'm not going to waste my time thinking of one as it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Regardless of how many other example you may come up with, the original point stands; LGSs get government mandated foot traffic, some of which would have never stepped inside the store if not for the law. LGSs should view that as an opportunity, not a burden.

Deltaboy
July 24, 2014, 12:03 PM
DogtownTom will get my Business if I ever make a transfer purchase cause my local gun store wants 70 bucks. I can afford the gas to Plano for that amount.

TennJed
July 25, 2014, 02:54 AM
Tirod, the whole basis of your advertising argument is faulty. Mass media is the internet now. Print ads and radio spots are not effective. Contrary to what you posted most social media DOES allow ffl to advertise. The biggest one out there, facebook has a ton of them.

Tabletop ffls do advertise, and they advertise in the most effective ways, social media, online gun realtors, search engines. If a business is still advertising in the yellow pages or newspapers they are foolish and wasting money

Tirod
July 25, 2014, 12:19 PM
I appreciate that those of you who can afford the entry fees to see internet ads don't see any difficulty.

You aren't representative of the public as a whole. When I deal with owners who repair their own cars all day long and suggest they surf the internet for an explanation of what might possibly be causing their problem and their eyes glaze over, the reality hits home. Sure, I have internet, I've been using computers since 1984. They don't even own one. They don't have internet access, they aren't equipped with the skills necessary to even find the Google button.

It's elitist to think that the middle class existence some live is a blanket testimony for all in American life. That is exactly the problem we are having in politics today - a few think there way is the only way and for anybody who disagrees, well, there's the highway.

I also find it illogical to say that if hundreds of thousands of FFL's who were lying on their application forms are gone and good riddance is coming from someone who directly benefits from their absence. Even if they only contributed to 25% of the overall transfers, what the industry saw was a 25% increase at the remaining FFL level. Sure that's fine for those who are still in the business - you have the only means for us to get a new firearm at all. Gatekeepers tend to think they have some form of authority and too bad for those who don't want to use them, they either get along or move along.

Entirely why the gun buying public as a whole who remembers mail order purchasing views the whole FFL experience as volunteers contributing to government oversight. They may very well be making the best decision they can for their business, and we largely would agree with them, but they are decisions nonetheless an an operative part of a system of restrictions to limit our 2A rights. In the final analysis, the FFL, great guys that they may be, are unpaid traffic cops that can and will stop a sale by direct order of the government. It's all set up in the system, and the actual lethality of that consumer is only based on a snapshot of his past actions.

In the near future it will also include an assessment of their potential for lethal action, and the FFL will then become an agent of the government to commit prior restraint. Taking an arrogant view that the public's idea of how the system works is wrong and the FFL has the only correct view isn't going to make them more likely to get sales. It just increases the amount of frustration the public has in getting the firearms legally.

And because of that, more and more are going with 80% lowers to circumvent the entire onerous experience of having to kowtow to the process at all.

Overall, if the FFL thinks that the internet is sufficient for their advertising then they are deliberately ignoring a segment of the population that is firearm friendly but computer shy. They don't spend money on access and electronic gadgets, they buy guns as they an afford them. If much rather have them as customer and attempt to reach them than limit my business to those who send a half dozen emails a day trying to nail down a 15 minute space in their busy life to buy the Gun of the Month. Ignoring that market is exactly why there is less hunting in America today.

george burns
July 25, 2014, 12:30 PM
How long does it take to get a haircut, 20-30 minutes, would you pay more than $50.00 for that? Same thing, If I did 20 haircuts per day at 50 a piece that's 1000 dollars.
That's what top salons get, but I bet most guys here would say that's too much, the transfer is even faster and less work, no talent to entering a name in a book. Tell me why again it isn't enough, the barber doesn't advertise either, other in the local penny saver.
Anyone can do this there is no schooling required, It seems like $25-30 dollars is the right price. As far as overhead goes, every business has fixed overhead, it's not costing you any more for rent electric or anything else weather you do 1 or 100 transfers, it's pure profit.

TennJed
July 25, 2014, 02:54 PM
Tirod, we are talking about home FFLs and their fees for transfers. What percentage of these transfers do you think originate from the internet? I would say almost all of them.

So if someone purchases a gun online, dont you think they could find the ffls online also? Why do you need to advertise transfers in print ads? The transfers will originate online anyway. Do you really think someone would buy a gun online then go to the yellow pages for a transfer ffl?

Also it is not elitist. Go look at the numbers for newspapers and circulation and radio advertising. How many phonebooks are printed today compared to 15 years ago.

larryh1108
July 25, 2014, 08:42 PM
Is it elitist to say that we assume that nearly everybody who buys a gun online also knows how to use the internet for finding a FFL? Is it elitist to say that if you don't have/use the internet then you are well behind the times? Or is it safe to say that choosing to not use the internet to save money while also buying guns and other things like cell phones, cable tv, air conditioning, etc., that you are making the choice to remain ignorant to what the 21st century is all about and how to make a life in it.

Yes, you have the poverty percentage but they seem to have their cell phones (govt subsidy) and you know what? Most libraries offer internet service free of charge. If you can't afford internet service and do not use free service at a library then you deserve to lose out on what the internet offers the general public. All you truly need to get the internet, on occasion as time allows, is to get a used laptop with WiFi (almost all have them these days) and go to a free hotspot like McDonalds or any number of free places to access the net. It's not hard and to cry that some poor fool can't get the internet because he needs his "meds" instead or his cigarettes or his bottle or whatever, well, it his choices. Yeah, there is the one in 500 who truly can't afford any luxury but if he already has a gun for self defense then he doesn't need a FFL.

dogtown tom
July 25, 2014, 10:13 PM
Tirod I appreciate that those of you who can afford the entry fees to see internet ads don't see any difficulty.
There are those who cannot drive themselves to a gun store either.
There are those who are visually impaired, deaf or cannot read.
There are those who cannot understand or have limited understanding of English.

While those may present some difficulty to the buyer, they seem to be able to overcome those hurdles and miraculously find a dealer to do their transfer. I've yet to have a customer complain that I don't advertise in Braille, Urdu, Spanish or any of a hundred other languages.

Blaming the dealer for someones inability to afford a computer or internet service is a bit odd to say the least




You aren't representative of the public as a whole. When I deal with owners who repair their own cars all day long and suggest they surf the internet for an explanation of what might possibly be causing their problem and their eyes glaze over, the reality hits home. Sure, I have internet, I've been using computers since 1984. They don't even own one. They don't have internet access, they aren't equipped with the skills necessary to even find the Google button.
I would argue that your customers aren't representative of the public as a whole:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2013/08/19/business/19internet/19internet-articleInline.gif




It's elitist to think that the middle class existence some live is a blanket testimony for all in American life.
Seriously?
Who the heck are you calling elitest? The school teacher who works four hours every day AFTER school on his gun business? Yeah, I'm elitest.:rolleyes:






I also find it illogical to say that if hundreds of thousands of FFL's who were lying on their application forms are gone and good riddance is coming from someone who directly benefits from their absence.
Illogical? No, I can't stand liars, cheats and thieves. If someone lied on the FFL application they should have had it yanked. What you are ignoring is how many of those former "FFL's" voluntarily gave up their FFL instead of getting legal.......ATF gave them the chance and they chose to not do so. They weren't actually engaging in the business of dealing in firearms from day one and lied to get their FFL, Shame on them.





Even if they only contributed to 25% of the overall transfers, what the industry saw was a 25% increase at the remaining FFL level.
Irrelevant.
Ain't nobody stopping you or anyone else from getting your FFL. It's cheap, the application is easy and you yourself seem to believe we need more licensees...........knock yourself out.






Sure that's fine for those who are still in the business - you have the only means for us to get a new firearm at all. Gatekeepers tend to think they have some form of authority and too bad for those who don't want to use them, they either get along or move along.
Getting a Federal Firearms License is easy. Why you think only "elitists" can get one is beyond rational thought.






Entirely why the gun buying public as a whole who remembers mail order purchasing views the whole FFL experience as volunteers contributing to government oversight.
"Volunteers"? Not hardly. I do it as a job to supplement my income. As Federal law requires an FFL to deal in firearms I don't have a choice. If you dislike the "FFL experience" then DON"T BUY GUNS FROM LICENSED DEALERS.






They may very well be making the best decision they can for their business, and we largely would agree with them, but they are decisions nonetheless an an operative part of a system of restrictions to limit our 2A rights. In the final analysis, the FFL, great guys that they may be, are unpaid traffic cops that can and will stop a sale by direct order of the government. It's all set up in the system, and the actual lethality of that consumer is only based on a snapshot of his past actions.
Don't like it? Then elect someone to change it. When you apply for your FFL, you agree to abide by all Federal laws as well as state and local. If you think that makes us "an operative part of a system of restrictions to limit our 2A rights".......what does it make you? (considering you pay taxes to support the very same government)







In the near future it will also include an assessment of their potential for lethal action, and the FFL will then become an agent of the government to commit prior restraint.
The tinfoil is getting laid down in multiple layers today.:D






Taking an arrogant view that the public's idea of how the system works is wrong and the FFL has the only correct view isn't going to make them more likely to get sales. It just increases the amount of frustration the public has in getting the firearms legally.
Huh? Point out were anything I posted in this thread is wrong. If it is I'll stand corrected.................but POINT IT OUT.





And because of that, more and more are going with 80% lowers to circumvent the entire onerous experience of having to kowtow to the process at all.
Onerous? That's funny.






Overall, if the FFL thinks that the internet is sufficient for their advertising then they are deliberately ignoring a segment of the population that is firearm friendly but computer shy.
Sure we are :rolleyes:
Funny, but I've yet to meet someone at a gun show, gun range or on the street tht has said "Dang! I don't have the internets and have no idea how to find an FFL!"






They don't spend money on access and electronic gadgets, they buy guns as they an afford them. If much rather have them as customer and attempt to reach them than limit my business to those who send a half dozen emails a day trying to nail down a 15 minute space in their busy life to buy the Gun of the Month.
Sorry, but if they can't afford internet service............how much $$$$ they gonna spend on a gun? How often are they gonna buy a gun?
Your argument doesn't hold much water.



Ignoring that market is exactly why there is less hunting in America today.
Hogwash.
Advertising by elitist kitchen table dealers has no effect on participation in hunting.

Spend thirty seconds on Google and you find the causes are habitat loss, complicated hunting regulations, other forms of entertainment, societal changes, demographic changes, and the mass media.

Nowhere will you find the decline of hunting to be attributed to a lack of advertising by kitchen table gun dealers.:rolleyes:




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