Range Rage


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loose noose
July 21, 2014, 02:17 PM
Went to my local range early this morning. The last time was about a month ago, and to say the least I was totally outraged. The last couple of months, the County put up signs to pickup your empty casings, as well as your targets. They even went so far as to put up shooting barriers, with sand bags, and dragged the dirt near the berm.

Well some idiots decided to shoot up the barriers, left old computer screens, and shot up TV's, couches, old batteries, and knocked over the barriers, and shot up the sand bags and just literally trashed what was a decent looking range. I wonder just how much longer they are going to allow anyone to shoot out there.

On top of all that, my mini-14 with the newly adapted bi-pod didn't shoot for a darn, basically cause I forgot my reading glasses, and could not remember, how to adjust the cheap red dot. I figured it was shooting high at 100 yards, but was unable to get it to shoot lower, and to the right.

Note the range is an old abandoned Metro range, from many years ago, and it doesn't cost anyone to use it. Too bad we've got so many people out here that just have to abuse it. I would dearly love to catch some slob doing the damage to this piece of property, I would definitely get a picture or two, as well as there license plate. Dang that makes me mad.

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anothernewb
July 21, 2014, 02:22 PM
We've run into that in our local range too. Cheap jackwagons who bring out trash that costs money to dispose of - and shooting it up. It's resulted in some pretty severe changes, and generally made things much more restrictive for the rest of us.

Luckily there's someone who lives relatively close to the range that's been keeping an eye on things, and with the signs posted - there will be a few people that will have to, unfortunately for the rest of us taxpayers - spend some time in jail for it. Once word gets out that the range is being watched, the worst offenders (which are usually the laziest people in general from my experience) will likely get the hint and go somewhere else.

Ky Larry
July 21, 2014, 02:33 PM
I know exactly what you mean. The U.S.Forestry Service built a toilet at the Clear Creek shooting range at Cave Run lake. The toilet beat the heck out of the patch of trees we were using. No sooner had they got it built than some yoyo shot a hole in the door.:fire:

19-3Ben
July 21, 2014, 02:35 PM
I hate paying the bill for it, but this is why I am so glad to be a member of a private range. I just never have to deal with 'the riffraff.'

The worst offense we deal with is when dim wits use the club's wood target stands with buck/bird shot out past a few yards and don't take into account that their spread is ruining the stands (which are just some 2x3's nailed together so its really no big deal tp repair/replace.)

Yo Mama
July 21, 2014, 02:42 PM
Yep, fastest way to close down a good shooting spot is to create a hassle for land management to have to deal with.

In AZ, we had a paradise for shooters just North 10 minutes from town. Between the stolen shot up cars, and glass from computer monitors, they finally shut down access for shooting. You couldn't clean it up yourself if you wanted there was so much garbage.

One thing I teach my children every time we go hunting or shooting, is to not only clean up after ourselves, but also to make the land better than we started with it by picking up anything else we find that was left by others.

Praxidike
July 21, 2014, 02:50 PM
We've run into that in our local range too. Cheap jackwagons who bring out trash that costs money to dispose of - and shooting it up. It's resulted in some pretty severe changes, and generally made things much more restrictive for the rest of us.

Luckily there's someone who lives relatively close to the range that's been keeping an eye on things, and with the signs posted - there will be a few people that will have to, unfortunately for the rest of us taxpayers - spend some time in jail for it. Once word gets out that the range is being watched, the worst offenders (which are usually the laziest people in general from my experience) will likely get the hint and go somewhere else.
Most likely a punch of 18-20 year olds behaving badly... To bad they do not have cameras up there. That way they could catch the punks and sentence them to clean up the range for a while as community service.

*Kemosabe*
July 21, 2014, 02:53 PM
Sometimes private ranges let riffraff in also. Our club bought 3 new falling plate stands, 6 plates on each, that weren’t a week old when some jerk (read that as a-hole) disregarded the “handguns only” sign and riddled all 18 plates with a .223

And this behavior is not just restricted to ranges. I used to jog around two pristine man-made lakes that the owner allowed everyone to enjoy them, i.e., boating, fishing, picnicking and jogging/walking. After a year of abuse the owner posted the property. Now we all have to suffer.

I would think that these jerks would have liked to come back to an unsullied place to enjoy again, but I did say jerks, didn’t I?

460Kodiak
July 21, 2014, 03:11 PM
That stinks when people abuse a place used by so many. If you want to make a mess, do it on your own property.

Potatohead
July 21, 2014, 03:22 PM
That sucks man, I feel your pain.

At mine, some knucklehead took his 12 ga (most likely) to one of the columns that hold the roof up. Blew it plum near in half with multiple shots!

improperlyaged
July 21, 2014, 04:00 PM
Best way to fight this is to volunteer a saturday a month with some friends to go out there and clean it up and set everything the way it is supposed to be. Thats what me and my friends do. And we have to do it about one Saturday a month, the jack hats just keep messing it up, but we keep cleaning it up so it doesn't get shut down

19-3Ben
July 21, 2014, 04:17 PM
Sometimes private ranges let riffraff in also. Our club bought 3 new falling plate stands, 6 plates on each, that weren’t a week old when some jerk (read that as a-hole) disregarded the “handguns only” sign and riddled all 18 plates with a .223


No doubt it CAN happen. But when it does, at least at our range, they get the logs from our swipe cards to see who came in, and then use the video footage of the range/ports/and entrance to figure out who the jackwagon is. That person is promptly dealt with (membership revoked/fine/suspension/recertification/etc...) We don't tolerate that behavior. Can't completely eliminate the possibility of bad behavior, but we curb that by dealing with it swiftly. The rates of problems are very very low.

Blue Thunder
July 21, 2014, 07:02 PM
The biggest issue at my Indoor Membership range is folks that cannot reload rifle ammo and have blown up 2 $$$ Rifles. The fortunate thing is that each range position has bullet proof safety barriers between each shooting position. You know something blew up when you see one of the pair of barriers with shrapnel and long streak marks on them. Fortunately neither of the shooters were injured, but they are not members any longer. Can't re-load ammo safely, go blow it up somewhere else!

grogetr
July 21, 2014, 07:19 PM
Is there somewhere you can put a trail camera up where it wouldn't be noticed. Maybe take a ladder and put it high in a tree. Check it every week or two and maybe you will get them.

jmorris
July 21, 2014, 07:26 PM
I must say, some "kids" need to stick with their video games. At least they can only piss of their Mom or Dad, if they don't pick up after themselves.

deerhunter61
July 21, 2014, 07:30 PM
Sad...there have always been dirtbags but I think there are just a lot more per capita than there were when I was growing up. These younger generations have not been taught to respect themselves or others much less private/public property. Everyone is more concerned with hurting feelings than they are in raising a child up in the way they should go...

AlexanderA
July 21, 2014, 07:40 PM
This sort of abuse occurs because the range is left unattended. Any formal range on public land should have a Range Officer (paid or volunteer) present whenever the range is open. At other times, secure the range against trespassers. (If it can't be secured, you can just expect it to be trashed, and not be surprised.) The Range Officer is needed to enforce safety rules, as well as prevent vandalism. And I see a potential liability issue if a developed range is left open and unattended. It would be like leaving a swimming pool unsecured and without a lifeguard.

gbran
July 21, 2014, 07:50 PM
I don't like ranges, indoor, outdoor, public or private, though I do belong to a pretty nice full service outdoor range.

I shoot on public land and rarely where others shoot. I don't want to get blamed for the already existing mess. I bring my own stuff and everything leaves with me when I leave. I never leave a mess.

blarby
July 21, 2014, 07:54 PM
We lost 3 blm spots to the junk shooters this year so far.

I don't pickup their trash anymore.

Rangers are starting to put up game cams..... Alas in the wrong places.

JudgeHolden10
July 21, 2014, 08:13 PM
It's interesting how some on this board assume that the people trashing the place are "kids." I've seen people bring computers and other junk to an unstaffed, public range where I shoot, and those people have been in their 40s and 50s. One doesn't have to be young to lack a sense of respect.

Double_J
July 21, 2014, 08:16 PM
We had that issue at an old dirt pit we shot at. Someone decided it made a great dumping ground for trash (old appliances, furniture, household trash, etc). We finally got tired of having to trudge down to the berm and move the trash out of the way. I know several people tried to clean the mess up, but they could not keep up with the mountain of junk that kept appearing week after week. The owner of the property finally put up a gate and no trespass signs and we lost a great shooting spot. He at first did not mind people shooting there but after it became a dump he gave up, can't say I blame him at all.

My old private range had a problem with hooligans trashing things. The Range Officers finally ran them off, but we had problems with people shooting shotguns at the pistol range, tearing up the target boards. Thankfully those are easy to repair but we got tired of constantly replacing 2x4's. We also had a few who tried to shoot the plate rack with an ar-15. I caught them before they could start shooting and "advised" them that was not a good idea. I caught flack from them but I got their member number and left a message for the club president. That club did have a requirement that every member must spend at least one clean-up day per year out at the range, that was a wonderful requirement in that everyone learned what a job it is to keep the range clean.

Curator
July 21, 2014, 08:32 PM
Yup, The Home Appliance Shooting Association does make things difficult for adult, responsible shooters. More public range areas have been shut down because of their antics than have been built due to the need for more shooting facilities. They are also responsible for more restrictions and the public's perception of shooters as slobs. Game cameras, surveillance, and pro-active enforcement is the only answer. At the club where I shoot, they have nearly caused the complete shut down of the range due to bullets going over the berm system. Some people should only be allowed to shoot at our facilities if they bring their mothers to clean up after them and be sure they follow the rules!

loose noose
July 21, 2014, 08:49 PM
When I first moved out here in '92, me and a few other older gentlemen, used to shoot black Powder arms out there, with informal matches. We used to get together once a month with our pick-up trucks and haul all the trash out to the dump, which is only about 2 miles north of the range. Unfortunately a lot of the older gents passed away, or moved, so that just leaves me and one other guy. Of course there are a lot of other folks that shoot out there, but I haven't been introduced to them as of yet.

Right now, it so doggone hot you really don't like to over exert yourself, other than to shoot a few rounds and then pick up your gear (targets and casings) and go home. Maybe an hour or two.

Further, here in Nevada in spite of Harry Reid, we don't have a problem with shooting on BLM desert land with law suits etc. Hopefully it will stay that way. The thing I'm concerned about is losing access due to the scum bags that abuse the property with trash.

Granted a good quality game camera would come in handy in identifying the perpetrators, but when you are talking desert, with mesquite bushes being the only type of tree, it would be quite difficult if not impossible, to position such an object. I do believe there is a high ridge about 1/4 mile in view of the range that a guy with a good set of field glasses could observe.

I do believe that for the most part, kids party out there at night, and find pleasure in dumping their old computers and TV's out at the range and destroying the property of others. Again as has already been mentioned, where the heck are the parents. Broken beer bottles etc. are all over the range, as a result. Again that just torques my jaws.

BTW I do belong to an organized range about 45 minutes from my home, note this range is less that 10 minutes from my front door (2 miles). I pay $60.00 a year, not to mention the cost to shoot trap, skeet, and clays. ($4.00 a round)

BobTheTomato
July 21, 2014, 09:06 PM
I saw the same problem when I live in PA. Some of the state game land ranges would get shot to pieces. Kids took 12 gauges to the new block benches. Dumped AK mags into the target stands. Pretty sad.

JellyJar
July 21, 2014, 09:49 PM
What belongs to everyone belongs to no one.

The only solution is to require permits/memberships to use the range with some sort of supervision.

splithoof
July 21, 2014, 10:25 PM
Hi noose;
Perhaps the county might be interested in converting this parcel of land to some type of lease, for a non-profit organization that wants to maintain a proper shooting range? In that way it might be possible to close it down to the public, thereby saving further environmental damage. Members could have 24 hour access, better facilities, and a lot less trash and junk. Some will object, but they have already voted with their prior actions.
The only really good alternative is to construct your own range on your own property.

Field Tester
July 21, 2014, 10:43 PM
This.
Again, this.

I dunno what it is about you old timers and constantly blaming "Young Hooligans" and their darn "Vidiya Games!"

Outlaw Man
July 21, 2014, 10:43 PM
That's why, despite some of the "inconveniences" associated with it, I like the Game and Fish Commission's local, staffed range. Accidents happen (shot target holders, minor trash), but don't expect to stay long if you're acting like a thug.

astra600
July 22, 2014, 12:02 AM
Is that the range on West Charleston? I haven't been there for quite a while.

The BLM asked our group to move to a safer place to shoot years ago, called the hubcap turn off. It is further west of Las Vegas and safer all around for handguns to machineguns. Sometimes the local shooters set a time to clean the junk the southern imports leave there, as there is no charge for dumping and it can't be seen from the freeway. Also had a couple of eagle scouts organize range clean ups in the mountains that have kept the areas open for shooting.

I've seen very poor people collecting 22LR cases to turn in for recycle money. They aren't there to clean the range, but it does help some.

I don't take targets with me. The idiots always leave stuff to shoot. But I do put some stuff in the truck bed before leaving, just cause. And I do pick up my brass and any other I might reload.

RustyShackelford
July 22, 2014, 12:33 AM
I saw that a outdoor range near me(about 70min away) spent some tax $$$ to rehab a county parks gun range.
I read over the new website safety rules & they are strict.
I'm thinking someone's mother runs out & gripes about sunscreen or starts yelling about the loud noises. :rolleyes:
I might give the site a try. The pics look good & it's $10.00 for a all day pass.
It's a supervised(range safety officer) type place so I don't think any hoodlums will be lurking there. :uhoh:
I don't mind the "pick up your trash" rules but the "no holsters" "no rapid fire" "no cleaning or inspections" etc places are a tad too much. :mad:

Rusty

herrwalther
July 22, 2014, 01:44 AM
Well some idiots decided to shoot up the barriers, left old computer screens, and shot up TV's, couches, old batteries, and knocked over the barriers, and shot up the sand bags and just literally trashed what was a decent looking range. I wonder just how much longer they are going to allow anyone to shoot out there.

Wow. The range I use only allows paper targets. I got bored of shooting paper one day, and I ran out of paper targets. So I decided to put out 3 plastic water bottles to finish sighting in one of my rifles. Shooting those water bottles made me feel really guilty and was worried I would get kicked off the range.

loose noose
July 22, 2014, 12:03 PM
astra600, no it isn't in fact it's right off of Bruce Woodbury Drive in Laughlin, just past the dam off road. I plan on going back there early in the morning with my grandson when he gets back out here next week and start the clean-up. He's a pretty good worker if I do say so myself. There is just too much to do all by myself.

As far as keeping people out of there, out here in the desert, that is easier said then done, With all the off-road vehicles in the desert it is almost impossible.

Trent
July 22, 2014, 12:11 PM
This is why I love private, low membership ranges...

CoalTrain49
July 22, 2014, 12:26 PM
There used to be 3 or 4 abandoned gravel pits where I used to shoot. They were on State land and you could drive to them. They were far enough away from any private residential property that shooting even HP rifles was safe. This spring I made a trip to all of them looking for a place to shoot. They were all gated and locked with concrete barriers on each sides of the road. I called the DNR and ask why they had essentially locked the public out of public land used for recreation. Their response was we had too many people dumping at those sites and had to lock them up. We decided we would clean them up and allow access by walk in only. A few of them would require one to hike a mile or more to access the pit. All this because people can't seem to respect their own rec property.

A gun club that I know was formed by some people who used one of these pits. They made a deal with DNR to have vehicle access to the pit and in return they would keep it clean when they used it and have a clean up day once a year to clean up after anyone else who left garbage. So far it's been working but they still have to keep it locked up so people don't drive in there and dump garbage.

ares338
July 22, 2014, 12:48 PM
This is why I am thankful every day for having enough land to shoot on my own property. No yahoos to deal with, it's always clean (well except for when my puppy steals my targets), and I can practice the way I want to. I have been visited by a few Copperheads on occasion but they came out on the short end of the stick. No human snakes though.

HOWARD J
July 22, 2014, 01:14 PM
People have not changed--we just have more of them today.
35 or so years ago--I was taking the kids to the NRA safety program ( kids have to go to get a hunting license) Someone blew up one of the 2 bridges going to the state range.
Just another anti-gunner I guess. Maybe he stole the wood

chiltech500
July 22, 2014, 01:14 PM
Having a club be more selective and difficult to become a memeber of helps quite a bit. One club I belong to is in excellent condition and I have never seen anyone abuse the rules and it's always clean and self-policed.

Another "club" I just joined that's closer to home was just a road cut into the woods with a couple of cutouts bulldozed into berms. I heard just before I joined it was like you guys described with tv's and crap lying around all shot up. Apparently there was a group conscience or something and now we have tables bolted to concrete slabs and folks are only shooting paper targets or metal hanging gong privately owned.

The problem was/is that often there's no one around - (no elctric anywhere for cameras). Many times when I'm there shooting alone a car will pull in, pause, and pull back out. My suspicion is that there were (are) non-members using the place who don't care.

Sorry young fellas but my eyes and ears are open and functioning well and I have a feeling this guy is right:

Sad...there have always been dirtbags but I think there are just a lot more per capita than there were when I was growing up. These younger generations have not been taught to respect themselves or others much less private/public property. Everyone is more concerned with hurting feelings than they are in raising a child up in the way they should go...

Too much evidence of this "ME" generation abounds.

TBH
July 22, 2014, 01:39 PM
I agree Field tester. I was mowing a picnic area attached to one of our Hydro facilities. There was a new Cadillac with what looked like a retired couple sitting in the car. The gent got out and took a short walk, and as I was mowing I saw movement, looked at the car and the lady rolled the window down and she took their McDonald's trash and dropped it outside of the car.
Very graceful, big bag, two cups and the cardboard cup holder. Must be they felt the servants would take care of it. Which we did.
I am responsible for four picnic areas and see it all. Rubbers, paper towels (clean up), beer/soda bottles, tires, shingles, dog poop, human poop, bags of trash, once the packaging for a HUGE dildo! Go figure. We (people) are our worst enemies.

RustyShackelford
July 22, 2014, 03:24 PM
It's a bit off topic but in 2000, I was working at a low end apt complex in a medium size city. A guy came in for a job interview with the property owner/manager for a maintaince position. He stumbled out of beat up old car in the parking lot & threw a few bags of fast food trash on the ground. :rolleyes:
I went into the manager's office & told him what took place. The property manager threw the guy's job application in the trash. :D

loose noose
July 22, 2014, 03:51 PM
It was about 20 years ago, I built a shooting bench made of 4"X4" and 2"X4" lumber and 3/4" plywood covered with indoor/outdoor carpeting. It sat, 100 yards from the berm, for quite awhile, being used by myself as well as friends. To make a long story short, after about 6 months , I went out there and you guessed it . It was knocked down and broken in to a bunch of pieces. Not really shot up just vandalized. After that I invested in a portable shooting bench, and it goes with me when ever I'm done shooting.

fromtheplaines
July 22, 2014, 09:49 PM
I am a member of a private club, and if anything the rules are a little too strict. But if you see something say something. I don't like being some one else's mom when it comes to things. But most if the time the don't know they are breaking a rule, so they are happier to hear it from me than a range official. But there are still idiots who purposely do things that could hurt the club. 10% of people seem to care 70% are some what indifferent and the 20% who are malevolent in their actions ruin it fir us all

WALKERs210
July 22, 2014, 10:18 PM
A few year ago I was a member and eventually voted president of a R/C club. The land is PRIME real estate that had a 600 ft runway, plus a completely area for R/C Cars and Trucks. The gentleman that owned the property never made any comments about trash or maintenance but the majority of us didn't want to let things go and them be out. One Sunday morning I arrived early and trash was unbelievable, every thing from drink containers, cans and fuel cans. After a few others showed up I announce the plan for the day, then around 11:00 I walked over to the frequency board and shut down the flight line. Then I walked from one end of flight line to the other passing out trash bags. I had a bunch of Newer member gripe but no one refused to clean up. After that we had no more issues. To bad you can't do something like that for your shooting area, but when you deal with dead heads what can you expect.

RustyShackelford
July 23, 2014, 03:44 AM
Doing police & security work, I know all about rules/regulations/laws/by-laws/etc.
In some ways though, you have to pick your spots.
In the mid 2000s, I did a security detail for a apartment complex that was turning condo. Basically they gave the residents who had lived there 0-25 years to either "buy" the unit or be evicted. Many chose the later & were being phased out.
My security company was told to enforce the property's "rules & regulations" :rolleyes: but it's hard to say; "don't park on the grass" or "don't leave your trash cans out" to tenants who are already under eviction or have given notice to vacate.
Leaving cigarette butts or trash/food wrappers laying around is bad I grant you but when you get nit-picky or go over-board(like a few other forum members posted) then it gets to be excessive.

Rusty

Bobson
July 23, 2014, 04:04 AM
I dunno what it is about you old timers and constantly blaming "Young Hooligans" and their darn "Vidiya Games!"
No kidding. An older person couldn't possibly be to blame for this. After all, the '60s and '70s were decades of such civility and refinement, when accountability and responsibility were embraced by everyone. :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, there's no shortage of irresponsible youth these days; but to pretend everyone over 40 is a model citizen is just... pathetically shallow. A lack of respect for others isn't something you just magically grow out of. You either respect others, or you don't - whether you're 15 or 50.

ANYWAY...

I don't think I've ever been to a free, public, unofficial shooting location that couldn't be described by the shot-up TVs, refrigerators, broken glass bottles littering the area, etc, etc.

coloradokevin
July 23, 2014, 04:23 AM
Went to my local range early this morning. The last time was about a month ago, and to say the least I was totally outraged. The last couple of months, the County put up signs to pickup your empty casings, as well as your targets. They even went so far as to put up shooting barriers, with sand bags, and dragged the dirt near the berm.

Well some idiots decided to shoot up the barriers, left old computer screens, and shot up TV's, couches, old batteries, and knocked over the barriers, and shot up the sand bags and just literally trashed what was a decent looking range. I wonder just how much longer they are going to allow anyone to shoot out there.

On top of all that, my mini-14 with the newly adapted bi-pod didn't shoot for a darn, basically cause I forgot my reading glasses, and could not remember, how to adjust the cheap red dot. I figured it was shooting high at 100 yards, but was unable to get it to shoot lower, and to the right.

Note the range is an old abandoned Metro range, from many years ago, and it doesn't cost anyone to use it. Too bad we've got so many people out here that just have to abuse it. I would dearly love to catch some slob doing the damage to this piece of property, I would definitely get a picture or two, as well as there license plate. Dang that makes me mad.

Change the dates and locations and this story works at almost every public (unsupervised) range I've ever found in this country. It's truly sad, and pathetic. Shooters are their own worst enemies. We involve ourselves in activities that require a significant amount of maturity and accountability, and most of us are very good about doing what we're supposed to do. But, a few magnificently moronic individuals seem to be drawn to EVERY publicly accessible shooting area, and they all eventually end up being trashed and later closed (or over regulated).

Here in Colorado I can think of at least 6 such locations right off the top of my head, all of which have been force-closed in the past ten years (if I really think hard about it, I could probably name ten of these kinds of locations). In my previous state of residence I can think of a few more places just like these.

I even went to one local range to find that someone had poached a deer right at the berm, then left its carcass there without taking any meat… just shot it to shoot it, since it was on the range. That place was later closed after some mental midget shot his friend accidentally while screwing around. It's ridiculous.

ljnowell
July 23, 2014, 04:30 AM
This.
Again, this.

I dunno what it is about you old timers and constantly blaming "Young Hooligans" and their darn "Vidiya Games!"


I hate to say this because I'm not that old of a guy but that is 90% of the problem in my area. I belong to a private club with a gated drive. All members have keys. At least once a year we end up with people sneaking in and damaging things. We catch them sometimes. The last time it was two kids with an AK. Shot up our clubhouse and the transformer on our power pole.

Sav .250
July 23, 2014, 08:26 AM
Sounds more like a "good old boy" range. Next somebody will bring in an old school bus to blast away at.

Baldman
July 23, 2014, 09:22 AM
Unfortunatley I think this happens alot with people leavign crap all over. I haven't found a decent place to shoot around me so I joined a club about an hour away, the range is nice and all clean up is done by members once a month. I've only been a memeber since the beginning fo the year but every work Saturday it seems only the same 10 - 15 folks show up for clean up. It never fails though although we have a large sign that says range closed for maintenance peole stil show up and start to unload their gear until we point out it's a clean up day, then back in the car they go and we generally see them show up about noon once we finsh. It ticks me off that they don't even offer to help but at least I know I'm doing my fair share.

Chiltech500 - any nice ranges around you that are takign memebers? I'm already driving to Easton so another 15 - 20 minutes won't bother me.

olm911
July 23, 2014, 09:35 AM
Some peoples don't know how good they have it. A free range to shoot at and they won't even help keep it clean. That is a shame.

buck460XVR
July 23, 2014, 11:31 AM
It isn't just at gun ranges.....dirtballs mark their territory every where they go.

Our city put in two new soccer field for kids across the road from my house. Some folks in the adjoining sub-division see it as the new spot to walk their dogs and allow them to defecate on the nicely groomed fields without cleaning up behind them. I assume they don't have kids that play soccer.

The local park has trashcans by the playground so the picnickers have someplace to throw their trash. Sign above them reads....."no fish cleanings". Still on most hot summer days, the smell of rotting fish guts fills the park. I assume the guts are coming from the nearby boat landing so the fishermen don't have to dispose of them when they get home. There used to be trash cans at the boat landing, but between the smell of fish guts, dead bait and the critters they attracted, the city took them away.

The list goes on and on. Selfish, self-serving dirtballs are not just a problem on gun ranges, they are all over. What I see more and more is that those individuals are not the lowest lowlifes of society, but folks with brains and monies that just don't care. They aren't just kids, or the local redneck drunk, but folks with nice houses and new cars with the "me" attitude. With the availability on the rise and the cost of video monitoring equipment going down, I hope that someday soon, folks that think they can get away with this crap because no one else is around, will have to answer to their dirty deeds.

anothernewb
July 23, 2014, 12:30 PM
The drawback to constant monitoring is the big brother aspect, and the potential for abuse there. Sucks either way. But unless you can teach scumbags not to be scumbags - the rest of us have to surrender certain things to take care of them.

Of course if I had a working method where I could teach scumbags not to be scumbags - I wouldn't have time to offer thoughts on a forum

I'd be so busy cleaning up the world that I'd make mother Teresa look like a piker, lol.

Deltaboy
July 23, 2014, 01:25 PM
Sad to hear this.

texasgun
July 23, 2014, 04:32 PM
I've been to county owned ranges in WA State... Watcom County range (Plantation rifle range)... $10 well-invested for each visit. Safe, clean and no nasty folks.

IMHO ... $10 is nothing compared to the cost of ammo these days

Trent
July 23, 2014, 06:36 PM
FromThePlaines:

About strict rules on private ranges; the only time I've every yelled at someone at our private range is when they were bump firing and clearly sending rounds up over the backstop and out of the ballpark.

That don't fly. Too much liability when rounds are escaping the property.

Field Tester
July 23, 2014, 07:35 PM
I hate to say this because I'm not that old of a guy but that is 90% of the problem in my area. I belong to a private club with a gated drive. All members have keys. At least once a year we end up with people sneaking in and damaging things. We catch them sometimes. The last time it was two kids with an AK. Shot up our clubhouse and the transformer on our power pole.
And where do you think they learned those values?
I am sick and tired of posters on this board blaming one group of people for a problem that reaches far and wide covering all age ranges.
It's as moronic as blaming today's violence on video games.

Knock it off!

aegagner
July 23, 2014, 08:09 PM
From my own experience...

I live a couple houses down from a WMA parking lot which is at the end of a 6 mile dead end dirt road.. town has no police department (state cops are coming if we make a call) and the ANR (agency of natural resources, vs. dept) has essentially become an absentee landlord... so much so that myself and the neighbors are patrolling the lot and writing down plates.

Orvis and the Ruffed Grouse society, of which I'm not a member put a whole lot of time into habitat improvement and proudly/rightfully hang a sign to show so; if that sign lasts 2 weeks without a dozen bullet holes in it I would be surprised.

I am a member of the NWTF however, and the I hope that the time we put into mentoring young hunters makes a difference towards attitudes regarding public lands. Other than that, I'm not sure what to do.

Edit: As I'm reading this, I can imagine that folks must think I'm a cranky retiree with nothing else to do but watch traffic on my road and piss and moan about it; I'm 42, a small business owner with 3 kids and a wife that is a teacher... meaning I don't have a whole lot of spare time on my hands (who does?) but that's how bad the disregard towards and lack of protection of our public lands have gotten. End of rant.

Field Tester
July 23, 2014, 08:25 PM
From my own experience...

I live a couple houses down from a WMA parking lot which is at the end of a 6 mile dead end dirt road.. town has no police department (state cops are coming if we make a call) and the ANR (agency of natural resources, vs. dept) has essentially become an absentee landlord... so much so that myself and the neighbors are patrolling the lot and writing down plates.

Orvis and the Ruffed Grouse society, of which I'm not a member put a whole lot of time into habitat improvement and proudly/rightfully hang a sign to show so; if that sign lasts 2 weeks without a dozen bullet holes in it I would be surprised.

I am a member of the NWTF however, and the I hope that the time we put into mentoring young hunters makes a difference towards attitudes regarding public lands. Other than that, I'm not sure what to do.

Edit: As I'm reading this, I can imagine that folks must think I'm a cranky retiree with nothing else to do but watch traffic on my road and piss and moan about it; I'm 42, a small business owner with 3 kids and a wife that is a teacher... meaning I don't have a whole lot of spare time on my hands (who does?) but that's how bad the disregard towards and lack of protection of our public lands have gotten. End of rant.
Not at all. You sound like a concerned conservationist. Do you get a lot of poaching?

RustyShackelford
July 23, 2014, 08:37 PM
In 2014, you can now get outdoor/weather proof DV cameras or security systems you can run with a mobile device(IPad, smart phone).
Depending on your property or gun range, you can stage the cameras or use IR/night vision to record the crooks/poachers/trespassers/vandals.
If you can get clear screen grabs or data you can pass it on to the game officers/DNR or local LE.

If that didn't work, Id collect up the videos & pics then go straight to the local media & raise a stink. :cuss:

TV stations love the "gotcha" videos. :D The PD or game wardens will get interested then.

If it's a private gun club or range, Id let the board or club officers decide what to do.

aegagner
July 23, 2014, 08:38 PM
I honestly don't know, Field, I honestly don't know...

I live in very rural Vermont, I can hit 5 towns and three counties by walking out my back door and heading up and along the ridges without crossing a paved road..(that's not meant as a challenge to my friends out west/Alaska/Canada, it's just the truth), so it's hard to say.

What I can say is that the folks who were given the responsibility of managing the WMA via the money the state receives b/c of the Pittman act seem to be losing to the folks who don't give a sh--... so if they can't manage that, they have no chance of policing the national forest. So that being the case, it would seem that the change needs to be made with the folks that are causing the problem, and I wish I knew how to do that.

Interesting topic; I'm glad that I own enough land to shoot on, also probably keeps the troublemakers moving on down the road. ;)

ljnowell
July 23, 2014, 08:48 PM
And where do you think they learned those values?
I am sick and tired of posters on this board blaming one group of people for a problem that reaches far and wide covering all age ranges.
It's as moronic as blaming today's violence on video games.

Knock it off!


No, I won't. I absolutely will not blame someone ELSE for another's actions. That's s typical attitude today that is responsible for the behavior of youth. It's no ones fault BUT THEIR OWN! Get over it and your own hate for people older than you.

We didn't catch 70 year olds shooting up our clubhouse and property and i
I'm not about to blame anyone else.

Nanook
July 23, 2014, 08:49 PM
I belong to a very tightly run range, which is good. It keeps the riffraff down, whatever their ages. A little boring for some perhaps, since only paper targets are allowed. But it works, and range officers are always around. The target holders still get shot, as do the baffles. If anybody is caught, they're expelled from the range.

I go to another club as a guest of my friend, and the target holders at that club are constantly shot up. They, whoever they are, also shoot up the shooting benches once they're done with the target holders.

Same friend's family owns a farm where we also shoot. We have an informal range setup for handguns and rimfires. Depending on which crops are in that year, for rifles too. Another of the people who shoots there was nice enough to make swinging plate targets for all to shoot at with handguns.

And then of course, a nitwit who traps on the farm shot them all up with an AR-15. Now the plates look like the moon, all cratered up. He was going to replace them, but we're still waiting. It's been over a year now. At the very least, if it was up to me, his access to the farm would be over. But it's not my call.

Sometimes you feel like that old commercial with the Indian who has a tear running down his cheek when you see how little many people care about anything. It can be disheartening when fellow shooters do these things. There are really so few places you can shoot, and to have our own do this really stinks.

loose noose
July 23, 2014, 08:57 PM
Field Tester, I sure would wish that the hooligans that you refer to would stick to their video games and stay the he!! out of the shooting range. How do I know it's the kids, simply because that is where they have their beer parties. About a year and a half ago a young man was killed driving erratically from the range, rolled his vehicle and broke his neck. Not a pretty sight. I've been out at the range early in the morning and saw a bunch of beer bottles, Liquor bottles as well, strung about a makeshift campfire. Guess where they get the fire wood. from the barriers that were set up.

A number years ago I was getting ready to set up a tactical shoot for some security officers I was training, so I set up a wooden barrier, as well as two 55 gallon drums (Plastic), the day before. Needless to say the next day, early in the morning, when I arrived the wooden barrier was burned up and the plastic drums were also melted.

Now I know for a fact that the young punks aren't the only ones guilty of the abuse, as TV's, Computers, old couches and beds as well as other garbage are distributed out there, by people who don't have the common sense God gave a goose. Note: I mentioned earlier in my rant where the dump is only about 2 miles north of the range. All you have to do is have Republic Services Trash service to get into the dump and drop your garbage off without charge. Oh so you live in an Apartment Complex, well it costs you all of $10.00 to dump there, beats the heck out of a $500.00 fine.

JudgeHolden10
July 23, 2014, 11:11 PM
I hate to say this because I'm not that old of a guy but that is 90% of the problem in my area. I belong to a private club with a gated drive. All members have keys. At least once a year we end up with people sneaking in and damaging things. We catch them sometimes. The last time it was two kids with an AK. Shot up our clubhouse and the transformer on our power pole.

I see your two "kids" and raise you a pair of adults who did the exact same thing at my buddy's private range.

Let's not bother ourselves with silly concerns like assuming too much; it's so much easier and neater to overgeneralize, especially when our own confirmation biases are being, well, confirmed. :rolleyes:

People don't have to be a certain age to be disrespectful.

cat_IT_guy
July 23, 2014, 11:20 PM
It is sad just how little a lot of folks care about stuff that isnt solely theirs. Its no wonder most farmers and other land owners hesitate to allow anyone but close friends and family to hunt and use their land. I've been pretty fortunate at my local, private range, but I guess the locked gate and annual fee (even though at $75 its pretty nominal) help to keep some of the worst offenders out. Still see occasional damage that is unacceptable, whether it was actually negligent or intentional, is irrelevant to me.

Im sure that a lot of the abuse is by some younger, careless members (hey even I wasnt perfect as a teen, though I can definitely say I never did anything to defile a gun range), but I've seen some older members do things equally as careless.

gamestalker
July 24, 2014, 12:12 AM
I know your pain and disappointment. we've had a pretty decent shooting spot here for many years, and it's just a few minutes from my home. But over the last several years morons have been shooting TV's, refrigerators, trash, and other junk, and then they just leave it out there. Now the area has been closed to all target shooting.

We had other shooting spots as well that have been closed, all thanks to the morons who have absolutely no respect for our sport and environment.

GS

Field Tester
July 24, 2014, 01:21 AM
No, I won't. I absolutely will not blame someone ELSE for another's actions. That's s typical attitude today that is responsible for the behavior of youth. It's no ones fault BUT THEIR OWN! Get over it and your own hate for people older than you.

We didn't catch 70 year olds shooting up our clubhouse and property and i
I'm not about to blame anyone else.
So two delinquents in this instance equates to every issue at your range? Also stop putting words in my mouth, I never said that anyone destroying property shouldn't be held accountable. But the lack of respect for a public area is a learned characteristic. This means that adults and those over 25 are doing the same, and are passing along the same morals to their children.

If anything I see more respect for the land and our firearm rights coming from younger shooters. I base this off of the extensive time I spend volunteering at my range for the Boy Scouts, Women On Target and Youth Trap. I see carelessness through all age groups however.

Are you having a tough time reading my posts? Where once have I said the blame rests squarely on the elderly? I personally have witnessed carelessness at several of Southern California's deserts with trash being left everywhere, shot up targets being left, spent casings being covered up, non off-road areas being tracked through, beer cans strewn about, etc...
You know who participates in this? Everyone who hasn't been taught properly and those who are apathetic and just don't care. I've seen it in my own camping group. All ages, 21-70, and usually male.
You know what I do about it?
I educate on the repercussions politically, environmentally and otherwise. I take out more trash than I bring in. I provide trashbags for my whole crew. I don't bring anyone with me that can't do the same and I refuse to camp with those that continue to ruin it for the rest of us.

I'm not an ageist. I'm a realist. This isn't a youth problem, and there's plenty if others here who obviously can attest to the same.

RustyShackelford
July 24, 2014, 01:39 AM
I can see the point about the riff-raff. :D
The big private club in my metro area that offers match use, rifles, pistols, shotgun, trap, meeting areas, bbqs, etc charges dues of about $450.00 per year. :eek:
Plus you must be a formal NRA member. ;)
That keeps a lot of "weekend rangers" & posers away. It keeps me away too. :(

Really, Id pay the steep fees if it meant I had few restrictions or areas where I could shoot rifles, handguns, shotguns, etc w/o 9,000,000 distractions or problems. :mad:

Nanook
July 24, 2014, 11:29 AM
Yep, the range I refer to does cost around $300 a year when you count paying for the work days if you can't work them. It's worth it, though.

The range officers do keep the idiocy to a minimum. A case in point, a guy brought his girl friend to the range. Everyone was glad to see a woman shooting figuring it's good for us.

We were on the benchrest range, concrete benches all around, sitting position only. One of the guns the couple brought was an M-1 Garand. After a while the woman begins to shoot it. She was standing up when she started, and the range officer immediately came over and stopped the shooting. He explained the problem to both of them, and they changed to a sitting position. No harm no foul. This one was due to not knowing the rules, and not from malice.

This range has had issues with the baffles getting shot up, and will expel anybody caught shooting them. Standing at the bench rest range will almost guarantee a baffle getting shot up.

At the farm range I shoot on, the target holders usually get shot up pretty quick. The other day we figured out why. One of the people who shoots there puts targets up side by side. This will just about force somebody into shooting the uprights since our target holders are only 2 feet wide plywood pieces. We're correcting that behavior so that should clear it up.

loose noose
July 24, 2014, 02:34 PM
Nanook, $300.00 a year, sure glad I live in a gun friendly state, all of a sudden $75.00 a year doesn't seem quite so high.

303load
July 24, 2014, 03:31 PM
Seen the name on the thread (range rage) and thought of the crazed lunatic running around his truck acting a fool with 3 others 2 kids. He was throwing stuff. Cussing. Kicking. Screaming. One ran off and hid in the woods. After 5 min of ranting and raving he jumps in the truck and does a doughnut out of the gravel parking lot. I say that is some serious range rage. Everybody on the 4 ranges ceased fire and view the whole thing in sheer silence. Made me load up in a hurry. Range rage that made my skin crawl. Best wishes.

ljnowell
July 24, 2014, 03:43 PM
I see your two "kids" and raise you a pair of adults who did the exact same thing at my buddy's private range.



Let's not bother ourselves with silly concerns like assuming too much; it's so much easier and neater to overgeneralize, especially when our own confirmation biases are being, well, confirmed. :rolleyes:



People don't have to be a certain age to be disrespectful.


Gee, did I say that they did need to be a certain age. Go back and read my first post.


It absolutely amazes me that people post without even knowing what they are talking about. I never once said it's always kids and that adults don't do such things. You should stop assuming things.

WV_Gunner
July 24, 2014, 03:46 PM
Our worst of it are people being rude. A local gun store owner and their friends gave me troubles my last time out. A week before deer season I'm trying to sight in my new scope which was frusturating enough thanks to wind gusts, then to top it off these people. Lets take our half dozen ARs, shoot for 30 minutes straight and then stop. This went on for hours.
I'll also never forget some moron that was putting on some sort of class. They'd all get on a group on the range. Plus some were shooting at the 25 yard target 5 yards away from it. And the "instructor" would never ask could he go out and check targets, he'd just start walking. My wife almost shot him by accident because he walked in front of her while fractions of a second from pulling the trigger. After that we just left.

ljnowell
July 24, 2014, 03:47 PM
So two delinquents in this instance equates to every issue at your range? Also stop putting words in my mouth, I never said that anyone destroying property shouldn't be held accountable. But the lack of respect for a public area is a learned characteristic. This means that adults and those over 25 are doing the same, and are passing along the same morals to their children.

If anything I see more respect for the land and our firearm rights coming from younger shooters. I base this off of the extensive time I spend volunteering at my range for the Boy Scouts, Women On Target and Youth Trap. I see carelessness through all age groups however.

Are you having a tough time reading my posts? Where once have I said the blame rests squarely on the elderly? I personally have witnessed carelessness at several of Southern California's deserts with trash being left everywhere, shot up targets being left, spent casings being covered up, non off-road areas being tracked through, beer cans strewn about, etc...
You know who participates in this? Everyone who hasn't been taught properly and those who are apathetic and just don't care. I've seen it in my own camping group. All ages, 21-70, and usually male.
You know what I do about it?
I educate on the repercussions politically, environmentally and otherwise. I take out more trash than I bring in. I provide trashbags for my whole crew. I don't bring anyone with me that can't do the same and I refuse to camp with those that continue to ruin it for the rest of us.

I'm not an ageist. I'm a realist. This isn't a youth problem, and there's plenty if others here who obviously can attest to the same.


Do you think that was the only instance? Really? I'm guessing you are a member at my club? Did you expect me to list EVERY instance of vandalism??

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with percentages. Let me help you, I said 90% of the problem. That means that in every 10 occurrences one of them is an adult. It may even be an 80/20 ratio. That still doesn't change the fact that neatly every time we have people arrested for vandalism they are under the age of 21 and most of the time are not members.

Don't like the facts, too bad. Youth make poor decisions frequently and get caught frequently it's an age old pattern that isn't likely to change. Getting bent out if shape like you are won't change that.

blarby
July 24, 2014, 03:51 PM
We had other shooting spots as well that have been closed, all thanks to the morons who have absolutely no respect for our sport and environment.

GS

Would make a great poster.

Could hang it next to the "unofficial" spots, but all the dolts would do is shoot at that too, and the tree its on, the trees behind it, and then try and down the tree itself with trebuchets filled with broken glass and punctured oil filters.

dagger dog
July 24, 2014, 05:38 PM
The Indiana DNR for Clark, Floyd, Harrison and Crawford counties, placed a new pit toilets at several sites including the self regulated shooting range at the Clark forest.

The idiots shot it to Swiss cheese, a brand new polyvinyl single holer that didn't stink and was maintained and stocked with paper, the one at a popular river access was bulldozed by some yahoo in a 4 wheeler , another older but usable one at a public fishing area was burned down.

Closes thing I can figure the a******* that are doing it must have them sewed shut !

These are the local redneck, beer bellied, jacked up 4 wheeler Bubbas that are ruining our areas, and if I can ever see one I will turn them in to the DNR's wardens.

Great thread !

RMc
July 25, 2014, 04:43 AM
In an age where nationally televised shooting shows seem to constantly use glass bottles as targets, should it be any suprise to find broken glass and other assorted shot up junk at public ranges?

Field Tester
July 26, 2014, 10:08 PM
Gee, did I say that they did need to be a certain age. Go back and read my first post.


It absolutely amazes me that people post without even knowing what they are talking about. I never once said it's always kids and that adults don't do such things. You should stop assuming things.
Someone want to go through and highlight and quote every time he did in fact say this? I'm on my phone and cannot multi-quote.

Oh wait, never mind. He completely contradicts himself again with his reply to me.

And yet there's another thread on Surveillance For Ranges going on right now further proving my point. Count how many times the words "vandalism" is followed by "good ol boys".

What was that about not liking "facts" again?

ljnowell
July 26, 2014, 11:33 PM
Someone want to go through and highlight and quote every time he did in fact say this? I'm on my phone and cannot multi-quote.

Oh wait, never mind. He completely contradicts himself again with his reply to me.

And yet there's another thread on Surveillance For Ranges going on right now further proving my point. Count how many times the words "vandalism" is followed by "good ol boys".

What was that about not liking "facts" again?


Why don't you go quote it? It seems like you are the person with the problem, not everyone else. I have plainly said in my posts that older people commit such acts, apparently you still haven't grasped percentages.

You can post your childish comments and arguments all say long but it doesn't change the fact that MY CLUB has been vandalized by people under 21 and in done cases under 18 almost in almost every single occurs occurrence. I really don't care if you like that or not, it's fact.

ljnowell
July 26, 2014, 11:46 PM
Someone want to go through and highlight and quote every time he did in fact say this? I'm on my phone and cannot multi-quote.

Oh wait, never mind. He completely contradicts himself again with his reply to me.
?


Ok, here you go, I went ahead and did it for you. You claim I said that all vandalism is committed by kids. You claim that I contradict myself. Here is every one of my posts, save the last one directly above, from this thread:


I hate to say this because I'm not that old of a guy but that is 90% of the problem in my area. I belong to a private club with a gated drive. All members have keys. At least once a year we end up with people sneaking in and damaging things. We catch them sometimes. The last time it was two kids with an AK. Shot up our clubhouse and the transformer on our power pole.

No, I won't. I absolutely will not blame someone ELSE for another's actions. That's s typical attitude today that is responsible for the behavior of youth. It's no ones fault BUT THEIR OWN! Get over it and your own hate for people older than you.

We didn't catch 70 year olds shooting up our clubhouse and property and i
I'm not about to blame anyone else.

Gee, did I say that they did need to be a certain age. Go back and read my first post.


It absolutely amazes me that people post without even knowing what they are talking about. I never once said it's always kids and that adults don't do such things. You should stop assuming things.

Do you think that was the only instance? Really? I'm guessing you are a member at my club? Did you expect me to list EVERY instance of vandalism??

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with percentages. Let me help you, I said 90% of the problem. That means that in every 10 occurrences one of them is an adult. It may even be an 80/20 ratio. That still doesn't change the fact that neatly every time we have people arrested for vandalism they are under the age of 21 and most of the time are not members.

Don't like the facts, too bad. Youth make poor decisions frequently and get caught frequently it's an age old pattern that isn't likely to change. Getting bent out if shape like you are won't change that.

Now, there you go. Again I will ask you, did they teach you about percentages in high school? I'm my very first post I said that it's NOT ALWAYS kids. See that whole 90/10 thing. Then I even said it may be 80/20 but that's still a large majority. Those are facts.

Now you have insulted, accused me of lying, and just generally exhibited very un-highroad behavior.

Btw, since you are casting stones about us old guys talking about kids and, I believe you said, "vidiya" games, I'm 34 years old. Not exactly part if the old guy brigade. I'm just far enough this side of my youth to realize that dad was pretty smart and that kids get in trouble.

Potatohead
July 27, 2014, 12:12 AM
These are the local redneck, beer bellied, jacked up 4 wheeler Bubbas that are ruining our areas,

Are you saying its only "local redneck, beer bellied, jacked up 4 wheeler Bubbas that are ruining these areas?":fire::cuss::fire:

It's their parents too!:neener:

Field Tester
July 27, 2014, 12:38 AM
Cheese and crackers man!

My qualm is with you attempting to place the majority of the blame squarely on the shoulders of the youth. You provided your experience and I provided mine. You were speaking locally where I was speaking as a whole. Then OTHER commenters provided THEIR experiences which show your statistics to be flawed. It may be YOUR personal perceived notion that younger shooters are responsible for reckless behavior beyond YOUR personal little world, but as a whole in the shooting community, this is not the case. Other commenters have supported this and I have cited another thread that shows the same. Unless you have any nationally recognized figures to back up your claim, the majority of people positing shows that this is not the case.

Don't get me started on the behavior exhibited by you in this thread. Your hypocrisy on the matter lends no credence in your accusation against me.

As to not have this thread locked, I ask that you continue any further issues you have with me in a PM. Where they will be promptly ignored.

ljnowell
July 27, 2014, 12:41 AM
Cheese and crackers man!

My qualm is with you attempting to place the majority of the blame squarely on the shoulders of the youth. You provided your experience and I provided mine. You were speaking locally where I was speaking as a whole. Then OTHER commenters provided THEIR experiences which show your statistics to be flawed. It may be YOUR personal perceived notion that younger shooters are responsible for reckless behavior beyond YOUR personal little world, but as a wholein the shooting community, this is not the case. Other commenters have supported this and I have cited another thread that shows the same. Unless you have any nationally recognized figures to back up your claim, the majority of people positing shows that this is not the case.

Don't get me started on the behavior exhibited by you in this thread. Your hypocrisy on the matter lends no credence in your accusation against me.

As to not have this thread locked, I ask that you continue any further issues you have with me in a PM. Where they will be promptly ignored.



You really believe that you know the trends of vandalism nationwide? You have the knowledge to speak on this issue? You have. Studied it at length?

Sorry but you don't get to come into a thread call people names and say that their REAL LIFE EXPERIENCES font matter because of your opinion. It seems to me that we are seeing the attitudes of the youth today in your very posts.

Potatohead
July 27, 2014, 12:50 AM
I was going for some comic relief to break up the argument. I guess it didnt work.

ljnowell
July 27, 2014, 12:54 AM
I was going for some comic relief to break up the argument. I guess it didnt work.


I found it very funny bro be honest I find fields posts funny too.

Field Tester
July 27, 2014, 12:58 AM
You really believe that you know the trends of vandalism nationwide? You have the knowledge to speak on this issue? You have. Studied it at length?

Sorry but you don't get to come into a thread call people names and say that their REAL LIFE EXPERIENCES font matter because of your opinion. It seems to me that we are seeing the attitudes of the youth today in your very posts.
Where did I call you names? Attacking a person and claiming they said something that never occurred does not help defend your position in a debate.
I also never stated my age, I just defended a position I know to be true. I'm actually your age. So what does that say about your preconceived notions and bias?

And if I was truly indignant as you claim, does that hurt or help my position? Does it nullify my points, or just prove that it is not in fact the "attitudes of youth today", but rather older shooters?
Check your bias. I'm done with this thread.

19-3Ben
July 27, 2014, 01:02 AM
Something tells me this thread is heading toward moderator intervention and a lock. Seriously guys. C'mon.

ljnowell
July 27, 2014, 02:28 AM
Something tells me this thread is heading toward moderator intervention and a lock. Seriously guys. C'mon.


Eh, I won't respond to anymore of his posts. It's not worth wasting time on.

Baron66
July 27, 2014, 03:29 AM
Quick story: My wife and I were at Disney World with our son and a couple that we had become friends with. We were going through a gift shop and our friends noticed that somebody had left an ipod touch on a shelf. It had a childish case so I would guess that some kid had gotten it for christmas and left it there on accident. They took it and bragged to us about the free ipod they got. I told them to take it to lost and found so the owner could get it back and they said no. Classless trash. They would steal from a child because the opportunity presented itself. We are not friends with them anymore, for that and may other reasons.

The point is that some people just don't have class. They do not respect anything and or anybody. It's their fault, and the fault of whoever raised them. I've seen classless people who are white, black, young, old, rich and poor. Unfortunately, you can't completely void them, especially if you are going to public places.

ljnowell
July 27, 2014, 07:13 AM
Quick story: My wife and I were at Disney World with our son and a couple that we had become friends with. We were going through a gift shop and our friends noticed that somebody had left an ipod touch on a shelf. It had a childish case so I would guess that some kid had gotten it for christmas and left it there on accident. They took it and bragged to us about the free ipod they got. I told them to take it to lost and found so the owner could get it back and they said no. Classless trash. They would steal from a child because the opportunity presented itself. We are not friends with them anymore, for that and may other reasons.



The point is that some people just don't have class. They do not respect anything and or anybody. It's their fault, and the fault of whoever raised them. I've seen classless people who are white, black, young, old, rich and poor. Unfortunately, you can't completely void them, especially if you are going to public places.


That is pretty trashy. I couldn't enjoy something like that knowing that some kid was out if their iPod.

buck460XVR
July 27, 2014, 12:07 PM
I think it is a common thing for many folks to assume that it is the youth that does so much of the vandalism, and there is some reasoning to it. The natural rebelliousness of youth, the time to get into mischief and just the ignorance of youth itself. Problem is, these kids learned the lack of respect of other folks property from their parents or other adult role models, either directly or indirectly. From my own experience, much of the littering, the leaving of trash behind and the reckless behavior at gun ranges is done by folks mature enough to know better. They just don't care. This is passed down to their kids in a never ending circle.

My point is, one cannot automatically assume it is kids. Case in point. My brother lives next door to a County LEO. Few years back the cop comes over and tells my brother that kids have been smashing the jack-o-lanterns on his front porch. He didn't come right out and accuse my brothers sons and their friends, but he sure implied it. Few days later the cop comes over and take my brother to look at the new batch of smashed pumpkins on the porch and this times states that if it wasn't his sons, odds are they knew who it was and wanted to question them. So in front of my brother the County Cop questions my brother's two oldest high school age boys. Of course the denied everything and claimed they didn't know who it was that did do it. Coupla days later the Cop comes over and apologizes to my brother and his boys. Seems he caught the culprits. Apparently the local deer herd had a taste for pumpkins and after staking out the porch watching for the kids to come back, he witnessed several deer smashing the third batch of pumpkins after rolling them off the porch. Maybe they were teenage deer..........;)

ljnowell
July 27, 2014, 12:15 PM
I think it is a common thing for many folks to assume that it is the youth that does so much of the vandalism, and there is some reasoning to it. The natural rebelliousness of youth, the time to get into mischief and just the ignorance of youth itself. Problem is, these kids learned the lack of respect of other folks property from their parents or other adult role models, either directly or indirectly. From my own experience, much of the littering, the leaving of trash behind and the reckless behavior at gun ranges is done by folks mature enough to know better. They just don't care. This is passed down to their kids in a never ending circle.



My point is, one cannot automatically assume it is kids. Case in point. My brother lives next door to a County LEO. Few years back the cop comes over and tells my brother that kids have been smashing the jack-o-lanterns on his front porch. He didn't come right out and accuse my brothers sons and their friends, but he sure implied it. Few days later the cop comes over and take my brother to look at the new batch of smashed pumpkins on the porch and this times states that if it wasn't his sons, odds are they knew who it was and wanted to question them. So in front of my brother the County Cop questions my brother's two oldest high school age boys. Of course the denied everything and claimed they didn't know who it was that did do it. Coupla days later the Cop comes over and apologizes to my brother and his boys. Seems he caught the culprits. Apparently the local deer herd had a taste for pumpkins and after staking out the porch watching for the kids to come back, he witnessed several deer smashing the third batch of pumpkins after rolling them off the porch. Maybe they were teenage deer..........;)


That's a funny story!

3212
July 27, 2014, 12:28 PM
My range installed cameras and caught two people committing unsafe or destructive acts.

303load
July 27, 2014, 01:24 PM
My experience has shown me that most instances of vandalism and mischief come from kids. To me that's anybody under 30. I did say most not all. This turned into thread rage around here not just a simple subject or debate. What a shame. Great pumpkin story!

ljnowell
July 27, 2014, 03:25 PM
My experience has shown me that most instances of vandalism and mischief come from kids. To me that's anybody under 30. I did say most not all. This turned into thread rage around here not just a simple subject or debate. What a shame. Great pumpkin story!


Better watch it you just subjected yourself to the wrath of the youth.

303load
July 27, 2014, 04:44 PM
I hear ya. I only based this on my own personal experience. We can't have a portable toilet at our range without worrying if its gonna get shot up with somebody in it. After thinking on it I understand why the management won't put one in. Go figure. Ppl can be stupid at any age but chances are its gonna be a kid or a bubba. Hate to say it but I hate it. For kids defined reference to my prior post. Just sayin

Zoot
July 27, 2014, 06:23 PM
The sad thing is, that a lot of these public places have to cater to the lowest denominator. Vandalism is one of those things that's just bound to occur due to the odds. Out of 1000's of visitors, you're bound to find an ******* in the bunch somewhere. Still, quite unfortunate. I'm a younger shooter and hate seeing any land filled with garbage, whether it be on the side of the road or downrange.

ljnowell
July 27, 2014, 08:17 PM
I hear ya. I only based this on my own personal experience. We can't have a portable toilet at our range without worrying if its gonna get shot up with somebody in it. After thinking on it I understand why the management won't put one in. Go figure. Ppl can be stupid at any age but chances are its gonna be a kid or a bubba. Hate to say it but I hate it. For kids defined reference to my prior post. Just sayin


Yeah, that's usually the demographic in my area too. I have no doubt that in some areas the demographics if vandals vary. In my area there are no gangs or any of that trash so kids drink and break stuff, lol.

larry_minn
July 27, 2014, 09:24 PM
Yrs back I had a summe job with lots of road work. Often 200+ miles a day cleaning up issues locals messed up. I worked MN, ND, SD. I found a number of ranges that I could drop into for a hr and practice. Most had a wood box with lock to stick couple bucks in.

Not a yr later many had locked gates, signs, members only.... A few slobs ruin it for everyone.

A indoor range I was member of was asked to let local PD use it. We agreed (of course) and set up ROs but they said no. They couldn't allow public to view the intensive training... Sadly we still gave permission. We cleaned it up, did some painting, made things look nice.

I droped by next evening (every member had key, could shoot day/night) It was disaster. I called the club pres and he came down. Pillars downrange had multiple bullet strikes (remember just painted) light were shot out. (both on floor and above) Target turners his (2' above TOP of target hanger) and bullet strikes on walls..... So its not always kids who are unsupervised.

BTW it was decided at meeting if any of us saw another member being held hostage to NOT call 911 in that city. It would be safer... This was in 80s and I really wish I had a phone to documet the damages. Worse then 6 yrs of private/public shooting easy.

DHJenkins
July 27, 2014, 09:50 PM
I (and some friends) actually shot up a TV at a range in the 90's for a public access TV show.

It was one of those massive ones with the cabinets.

Wow, when's the last time you saw one of those?

Anyway, the difference is this was a "private hunting club" (bar) that also had a range and I had their permission to shoot up anything I wanted so long as I cleaned up after, which we did.

Christ, I'm getting old - there are people of drinking age who've never seen one of those TV's...

Nanook
July 27, 2014, 10:02 PM
You're getting old? Heck, I have one of those in our spare bedroom. Bought it in 1988 and it still works.

I've been meaning to replace it with a whizz bang flat screen, just never seem to get around to it.

I promise I won't shoot it up at a range. LOL

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