I doubt most would disagree that IF anyone has to use their CCW .. there WILL be legal repurcussions ... even if brief and minor at best.
One other aspect tho has been a matter of thought to me ....... and that is what we might call the ''retribution syndrome''.
Imagine that you have had to draw and shoot in a justified defence situation. The legal sequele have been fortunately modest to minimal so ..... you do not have that to lose you sleep. However, the perp has survived (bad news!) .... and is in jail for ''x'' years.
Said perp and his family make it known that ''all in good time'', one or all will seek retribution. They might direct threats (possibly very subtle too) at you personally and/or toward your extended family and kids etc.
HOW would you handle this?
Threats can often be little more than ''hot air'' ... empty words. But they would not however be either something to ignore ...... they can leave people feeling very insecure, and when it comes to threats extending to others in a family ... kids I mean most of course .... then I imagine it being potentially very stressful.
We should watch our six at all times anyways but a feeling of someone ''out to get'' you is not a happy proposition .. and yet what could you do? If someone IS truly out to get you then they would decide time and place ... they would have the ''edge''.
So .. again ... how would you handle it? Hopefully it's something we will not have to deal with but the possibility seems real enough. I am just ''fishing'' for input ... esteemed THR opinion.:)
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April 8, 2004, 04:39 PM
Its my understanding that most criminals have pretty short memories ... most live "in the moment" so there's not much chance they would come after you 10 years later.
As for his friends (especially if you kill your attacker) I imagine they may try some sort of revenge right away, but after a couple months they'll have moved on to other things.
Over on GlockTalk a while back there was a guy named RoadRep who shared his self defense shooting story (http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=126319) ... he shot and killed two members of the "Gangsta Deciples" gang and had to deal with retrobution for a time, but the police told him that among gangs the "turnover rate" (from death and jail) is so high that after a few months there won't be anyone in the gang who cares enough to come after you.
April 8, 2004, 04:47 PM
I know the ''RoadRep'' story Zund .. and what you say is probably for the most part right.
However I can think back many years to instances where people were ''put away'' ...... and VOWED to have their piece of revenge - in one case IIRC (in UK) .. it actually happened!. Maybe these cases are rare ... but even if threats empty I tend to imagine that for some people they could disrupt what should otherwise be normal day to day life.
I guess I'm looking for people's views on what they might regard as a far from idle threat. I mean ... if someone crosses me, badly ... I am somewhat of an ''eye for an eye'' .... and can imagine a BG holding a huge grudge because someone (even legitimately) .. screwed with him!
April 8, 2004, 05:26 PM
I guess some criminals would have the patience to wait until they are released to get revenge, but I don't think most street thugs would remember your name or anything about you that long.
The kind of criminal who is going to be able to hold onto that kind of focus for that many years is probably committing crimes much larger then simple armed robbery.
However I wouldn't be surprised if you shot some mugger, he lived and 10 years later he ran into you at the mall or something then he might try something ... so you shoot him again (this time get it right ... 2 shots COM, one to the head :p )
April 8, 2004, 06:14 PM
I believe it was in a Lethal Force I (Massad Ayoob) class, that I saw a video including a fellow who was a Hollywood, CA merchant. He had killed a couple of perps / gang members in two separate incidents, and dealt with retribution over some period of time. As I recall, he eventually had to move to another town. [I probably have my source wrong here, but I do recall the story.]
From what I've seen, IF someone is truly out to get you or your family, there appear to be only three real alternatives:
1. You get them first. Not recommended under current law ...
2. The police help you make it clear to the perp that everyone is watching. Probably of marginal help. Then stay more prepared than usual, and hope you're around and ready if the attack comes. Not a great way to live.
3. You move, without letting anyone know your next address.
After reading some books ("Gift of Fear" comes to mind), discussing stalking with LEO's, and reading threads here ... I hope to never personally encounter this situation. Not an easy row to hoe from what I gather.
Regards from TX
April 8, 2004, 06:18 PM
I waited and watched 6. Living in Orange for almost a year was not fun.
He died in a car crash in California in 11 months.
April 8, 2004, 06:25 PM
First off, they were out to get you in the first place. That's why you had to use the lethal physical force they are now irate over. Nothing much has changed, other than you know one specific individual or group.
Career criminals really don't have much "stick to it-ness". Yeah, in twelve years, if it were convenient; but in reality, they just don't have much long term discipline.
Notify the local law. The local police chief, the District Attorney, the judge in the case who sentenced the offender, etc. Send a written notice that you are the proper and legal defender of you and your family's life, limb, etc.; and you have received verbal or written threats against your life and limb. If the badguy(s) is/are dumb enough to put it in writing, make copies and send copies with the notice. Get it on record about the potential of the situation; so if you do have to shoot the same guy AGAIN, the matter is "pre-disposed" in your favor.
And remember, it happened once, there's no guarantee it won't happen again with another offender. Remember the basics: Reasonable fear of an immediate deadly threat; sight picture; trigger squeeze.
April 8, 2004, 06:41 PM
I have actually dealt with something similar to this when I was much younger. However there was no shooting involved. I defended myself from an assault by four members of a gang (their gang initiation was to beat down a white kid). It was totally random, and was a complete surprise to me. I had never known any of them before this happened. I defended myself, all of them got hurt, one of them very badly. (badly concussed, needed a pile of stitches to sew his head shut, unconscious for a few days) I was injured as well, mostly facial injuries, minor concussion, that kind of thing, but I defended myself, and got away. (actually they ran away).
They were minors. Got picked up by cops. Minor slaps on wrists.
Next thing I knew friends of mine who happened to be of the same ethinicity as the gang members were coming to me and warning me that I needed to get the heck out of town because I had embarresed them, and they were going to just plain shoot me as soon as they had the opportunity.
Knowing the reputation of this bunch, I had no doubt that they would in fact just shoot me in the back. At that time in my life I had nothing tying me down, so I packed up and moved to Utah. Much nicer than California anyway. :)
April 8, 2004, 06:49 PM
Zund that was the first I have ever read that thread over on GT. All I can say is WOW. RR is an amazing man. I don't know if I could have handled it like that.
April 8, 2004, 07:05 PM
To back up the RoadRep incident: dealing with prison gangs every day, as I do, I'm aware that many of the worst of them (Gangsta Disciples, Aryan Brotherhood, Hell's Angels, Texas Syndicate, Mexikanemi, etc.) do operate on a "cut one, they all bleed" basis. If you should happen to (successfully) defend yourself against one or more of the members of these gangs, there is a twofold risk of retribution. One is short-term: his buddies will be looking for "evens". The second is longer-term: if you're not available (or unwilling) to testify against their brother gangster, he's unlikely to be convicted, or if convicted, may receive a lesser sentence. Thus, they may try to intimidate you, and resort to more active measures if intimidation doesn't work.
This is unlikely to happen with a "cheap punk" street hood who isn't anyone of consequence in the gang. However, if you take on (and prevail against) the son or younger brother of a higher-up member of the gang, you may well be in trouble.
The same applies to inter-gang conflicts. A few months ago, the younger brother of one of the main leaders of the Texas Syndicate was murdered execution-style, along with his girlfriend. It's pretty clear that this was intended to "send a message" to his brother (and to his father, who's also in a Federal prison). The TS moved their "hard men" in by the score, and I understand that there's a seven-figure reward being bandied about on the streets for anyone who identifies and locates the perpetrators so that the TS can deal with them in their own way.
April 8, 2004, 09:20 PM
Look at it this way: you won't having anybody hunting you down if you got killed in the first confrontation.
April 8, 2004, 09:36 PM
TallPine - haha ... sure can't argue against that one.!!:D
April 8, 2004, 11:03 PM
I simply packed 24/7. I arrested a major drug mule. He went down hard. The idiot had a list of those he supplied and how much he supplied on him. He ditched it in his car. When it was searched the list was found. The rest of the drug association wanted me to disappear. They went so far as to find where I parked my car and destroyed it. I had a Walking Tall car chase one day. I drove better and knew where I was. I gave a taped deposition and the FBI took a report of the death threat. I am still here.
April 8, 2004, 11:06 PM
That's heavy stuff Josey ... stay safe dude.:)
Edit to add .. I doubt I've have the concern over my own safety compared with that of my nearest and dearest ... that's where I'd have real probs.
April 8, 2004, 11:11 PM
Id be interested to know exactly HOW the perp survived, having 2 hunks o' lead in his chest, and one in the head... I musta REALLY screwed up when I defended myself...
April 8, 2004, 11:15 PM
Yeah but ... even so the perps don't always die ... more is the pity.
And when they do they still have family - or even ''family'' - if you know what I mean.! This is the consideration here.
April 8, 2004, 11:23 PM
Damn... That RoadRep story is pretty heavy.
If, when I am an adult, that ever happens to me, the first thing I will buy after the shooting will be a bullet resistant vest.
April 8, 2004, 11:36 PM
I'd second Archie's reccomendations, I think. You want to report any threats or threatening behavior, and generate a paper trail with the police. I never participated in any prosecution where a bad guy had attempted/murdered a witness or suspect, but I know of a few, and it tends to make LE, prosecutors, and judges foam at the mouth... Undermines the people's confidence in the rule of law and the fabric of our society, so it's especially important to pull out all the stops. Also, I'd say don't refuse police protection because you feel it's too obtrusive... although sometimes the officer gets shot, so don't let your guard down completely either.
I say all this with the awesome, vast and overwhelming weight of a summer internship experience in a prosecutor's office behind me, so don't go and think I actually know much, it's just my thoughts.
April 9, 2004, 12:59 AM
Post deleted at author's request.
April 9, 2004, 01:17 AM
i say think in the now. if you have to shoot, don't worry about his buddies coming after you down the road. That's something you'll have to deal with later.
April 9, 2004, 10:59 AM
If a person relatively unknown (or even known) to you wants you dead, I'm sorry to say that if they have the least bit of conviction in the matter, they will succeed one day. You can CCW all day, but you are going to have to leave your house sometime, and a handgun isn't going to do you much good against a perp sitting on a ridge behind some cover 200 yds away with a 300winmag.
That said, if I were somehow involved in such a situation, I would clear out my residence of everything valuable and move IMMEDIATELY. I would switch cars if possible. I would have the CCW with me at all times, and would also have a hi-cap semi auto rifle close at hand as often as possible... in the car, and at home.
But like I said, if someone REALLY wants you dead... you've got to go to the store to get some milk sometime or another... :uhoh:
April 9, 2004, 11:34 AM
after killing a suspect in the line of duty. Kept his dog nearby (to alert him ASAP of any outside activity; very sensitive ears & nose). Carried a serious sidearm 24/7 and kept a .30-06 rifle within reach. After several months, no activity, back to normal. That was 30+ years ago, and my buddy's fine.
I don't "hang" with any gangs; they'd probably ignore me if they saw me on the street (middle aged square that I am). My greatest threat would be from a robber/burglar/drug addict-type. As far as retribution from:
1) The assailant - If he survives my defensive actions, by the time he's out of prison I'll be "old news" (in the vast majority of instances). If he is a real nutcase/hardcase, I'll just have to face that if & when it comes. (Hey, I must've won the first round . . .:D )
2) His "associates" - Even less likely. There ain't no honor among thieves!:neener: They'll just be glad he's the one who tried me, and they can concentrate on easier targets. Again, if the hoodlum was a member of a cohesive gang (Hells Angels, Crips/Bloods, Aryan Nation, etc.), all bets are off, but my likelihood of crossing a member of one of those groups is extremely low.
3) His relatives - Okay, this is probably the most likely source of retaliation. A father/son/uncle/brother/other (I'm not really a sexist; I'm well aware a female relative can press a trigger, too. The odds are any such action will be from a male relative, IMHO) could very well decide to avenge the AWFS ("Assailant Who Finished Second"), even at the risk of his own life or liberty. Yep, could happen. I won't ruin my own life out of fear of retaliation. Condition Orange; alert family & neighbors, maybe beef up perimeter security (alarms, locks, lighting); 24/7 carry of serious hardware, increased range time for self & family members (heck, even death threats can have a positive side :evil: ).
April 9, 2004, 11:35 AM
El T said it and I agree, living in Orange ain't fun. BTDT
Can depend on the BG's family - be it immediate or his associates - and their level of code, violent nature, and ego.
Applies to being a witness, giving testimony,or juror - Foreman of jury. Not only a concern if personally attacked or one is in a defense situation.
When it is made known in front of judge, baliff, and sheriff for instance outside after court by family ,of perp sentenced standing by your vehicle and tags have been written down for instance...or...
Another is "lack of reasonable doubt" ...your gut is telling you something else...you then discover the perp whom was not convicted for rape and assault is out on bond waiting for the other part of the "activities" -murder trial for killing the boyfriend...fancy restuarant and guess who is serving your table...eyes can convey the words spoken to you as foreman.
Don't be bashful and do accept assisance in having your six watched. Kinda like a restraining order , no guarantee for your safety, does put some documentation on your behalf in the event things do get serious.
Vehicles, tags can be replaced and changed. Moving gets rid of old junk, provides some distance. Easier if single...wife and kids makes it more challenging.
Having trusted friends you can count on, and they can count on you...doesn't hurt if they are LEO, undercover LEO, and they have some serious training . Those with Military experience are nice...don't discount the retired or ex militery either.
Lots of good "training for the brain" can be learned over coffee and pie, doen't always have to be at the range.
Nice to know folks you can "go to" or "house sit" when the "professionals" are in your area...the ones that prefer to kidnap you or family...to force you to go business to open safe...
Folks riding around in trunk of vehicles, for hours upon hours, or being locked in the walk-in vault - and oxygen getting low...one tends to always stay in yellow with a constant hue of orange around the edges.
April 9, 2004, 11:38 AM
a while back there was a guy named RoadRep who shared
Yea, an unverifiable story, with vauge references to possibly Memphis. :rolleyes:
Good story, but without being able to verify it I won't take it as fact.
April 9, 2004, 11:44 AM
Excellent point, sm. Have someone to confide in, a spouse, a parent, a brother, a licensed professional.
Problem #2 is a large hydra--it has many facets. The stress whether born of uncertainity about "what happens next", your perceived standing in the community, and the mental impact against going against everything you were taught not to do by your parents ("do not hurt fellow human beings") can be crushing. Have an outlet, though I prefer sushi to Steve's pie.:D
IME, a lot of running and heavy bag work is another way to overcome this aspect of Problem #2.:)
April 9, 2004, 12:11 PM
Well El Tejon Sir,
You are a good example (in more than than way around here btw) - but I know folks in your line of work. Your "clients" are innocent . They do have associates and business partners. There could be folks upset if a situation did not turn out as well as "they" expected. Explained to me as akin to - how to say- honesty among "friends", until the big business meeting. If this meeting does not go well , or as "clients" wanted...El T might not be in such good graces...little bit of resentment.
Oh...at 10:30 am yes you would eat this pie, hot and fresh...this lady knew how to do apple pie and how to"put a scald on fried chicken". ;)
El T is determined to get me to try sushi...I wonder if we have that in AR...I don't see it next to pork chops at the market...BBQ joints sure don't have it...:p
April 9, 2004, 12:48 PM
In the event of threats, it would be time to disappear if you hadn't already - http://www.howtobeinvisible.com
Great book, highly recommended.
April 9, 2004, 03:40 PM
Much excellent input here and thx to all ..... I think ultimately the aspect that would irk me most is the ''uncertainty factor'' ..... maybe one would see a risk/threat as a mere 5% ... if that. But those things can pray on the mind ... and that sure does not appeal to me at this end of life ... when I want to be laid back and relaxed ... hopefully enjoying what choose.
If it were to occur tho ... I would simply have to deal with it .... that's for sure.
April 9, 2004, 05:30 PM
P95, oh, yeah, the not knowing is an incredible strain. I've seen guys go up 30 pounds, down 30 pounds, ulcers, hair (gray or out), all kinds of problems. It does not help when after dealing with Problem #1, you get to talk to the tilecrawler, that you just paid a lot of denek to, as he looks you in the face and says "well, I don't know what's going to happen--it depends. In the hands of the grand jury, Prosecuting Attorney, etc."
Closest that I've seen is guys going through custody hearings or restricted visitation hearings. Those are plenty bad, but at least prison is usually not a possibility. :(
This effect is the reason I recommend physical exercise to deal with the stresses. Some guys laugh at me (green tea-drinking, sushi-eating, twigs and nuts squirrel that I am), but I've been on this woods before. Heck, it's where I live.
The guys who deal with it the best are the types that have prepared for it, like coppers, especially those with religious convictions. They seem totally at ease and certain that they did all they could do. (Sometimes a bad image to project, but it depends:D).
April 9, 2004, 09:18 PM
Yea, an unverifiable story, with vauge references to possibly Memphis. Good story, but without being able to verify it I won't take it as fact.
Act1man, I'm with you on that one. The cliche "anit-gun minority city council-woman" shot it down for me.
April 9, 2004, 10:19 PM
This time put 4 in the chest and 2 in the head?
Drop him with a scoped rifle. (oops, I thought he had a rifle too. Guess that was just a stick. Easy mistake.)
No security is 100%, but if some BG wants me, I hope he brought guided f---ing missiles.
This would be a good time to invest in an armoured Surburban, with a .50 Ma Duce in back (semi-auto and perfectly CA legal of course.)
I don't think neighborhood thugs have Night Vision gear either.
April 9, 2004, 11:55 PM
Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but being a competition shooter for 20+ years, in several disciplines, has put me around many fine, stalward folks. Kinda thinking that one or more of them could be of some help in "covering my back" if there was such a threat of retribution against me. I'd do it for them, am betting at least some of 'em would help me in such a time of need..
April 10, 2004, 11:00 AM
Indeed Brian ... that could well be a ''saving grace'' ... like you, I certainly would step in with support in someone's case of need ... both with psychological support as well as physical. We owe that to one another I think.
April 10, 2004, 12:46 PM
Another tool to possibly use is restraining orders against said perp and any of his family and friends who have been making threats.
Mr Perp, if he's not dead, most likley now has a felony conviction, and as such can't legally have guns (not that it's likely to stop him from getting them.) His family and/or friends might be another story. If you can subject them to a restraining order, it gives the cops another thing they can arrest them for.
And, if nothing else, as stated previously, it creates a paper trail.
On a personal note, I'm in the Army, and my wife has relatives who live in a small town in Montana. Wife and kid would immediately go there for a little vacation, taking her guns with her (SKS and Kimber), and I would move on post-and I would risk the scuffing from my commander for not fully complying with post regs on storage of personal weapons.
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