Ranges & Gun Shows: No Loaded Weapons!


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Praxidike
July 23, 2014, 11:30 PM
This is just something I think about when I go to gun shows and my local ranges. Does anyone else find it kind of hypocritical when all these pro-gun, pro-open carry, pro NRA, etc gun shows and gun shops forbid people from carrying a loaded firearm in their places of business, but are quick to condemn places like Target and the like on their company's Facebook page and/or weblog for doing the exact same thing? Maybe it's just me though...

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lxd55
July 23, 2014, 11:38 PM
no, do you know what hypocritical is?

docsleepy
July 23, 2014, 11:40 PM
Gun stores are a place where people pull triggers.

Good reason not to have loaded weapons except on the hips of the proprietor.

rcmodel
July 23, 2014, 11:45 PM
I find it perfectly logical.

I have been in two gun shows in the last few years when some moron fired an 'unloaded' gun inside a crowded hall full of people.

Besides that?

Show promoters are having a hard enough time finding large public buildings they can rent for gun shows that will even allow unloaded guns.

Let alone buy enough liability insurance for a two-day event to cover the proceeds with loaded guns allowed.

It is not hypocritical.
It is simple business economics if you want to put on a gun show.
Or afford liability insurance for a business so you can stay in business.

rc

Willie Sutton
July 24, 2014, 12:06 AM
Remember that 50% of the people you meet are below average....

Guns and the sum of all those averages concentrated in large numbers? Uhh..... <sigh>...


Willie

.

vamo
July 24, 2014, 12:13 AM
Nope not at all. I get why you might think about that, but the way I see most people handle guns at gun shows and gun shops for that matter (including salesmen) makes me think the no loaded guns in here is a very good idea. Its a lot of guns in one place and though we're taught to always assume every gun is loaded, most assume every gun is unloaded at these events.

NoVA Shooter
July 24, 2014, 12:30 AM
Gun stores are a place where people pull triggers.

Good reason not to have loaded weapons except on the hips of the proprietor.

Good point. But what about CC? Why would I un-holster my carry gun (not to mention pull the trigger) in a gun store? What about a gun store is different than any other store or location I go to? I would no more whip out my carry gun to show a friend/acquaintance at a gun store than I would in the middle of a crowded restaurant. If I bring my carry gun into a gun shop with the intent to remove it from its holster, it’s only to fire it at the range (and there are strict safety rules for that). If I’m bringing it it for someone to look at it, then it’s not my carry gun that trip and will be unloaded and in a case.

If someone is taking there loaded carry weapon out for show and tell in public, well, I think more training is needed.

Deltaboy
July 24, 2014, 12:43 AM
I CCW in my LGS with no issues cause I keep it put up. I have no issues with Gun Show rules cause too many idiots show up at them.

Twiki357
July 24, 2014, 01:09 AM
I wondered about that myself until I attended my first gun show about 7 years ago. After observing some of the yahoo’s at the shows, “NO LOADED GUNS” makes a lot of sense.

RustyShackelford
July 24, 2014, 01:28 AM
Do some research on the recent gun show shooting in central PA.
I used to live in that general area & having NO GUNS or NO LOADED WEAPONS signs at venues isn't a bad a idea. :D

The owner/CEO of the gun show promotion firm told the media he never had any issues or problems prior the the incident. :uhoh:

FWIW, where I live now, a fairgrounds gun show lot was easy pickings for some clever crooks who stole a pile of guns(loaded & unloaded).
The event company claimed they had off duty cops(highway patrol) & a few "undercover" officers but it was a real scandal. :eek:

Rusty

Praxidike
July 24, 2014, 01:48 AM
Okay, if it's unsafe or not a "good idea" for people to carry loaded and holstered weapons into Gun Shops or Gun Shows, then why isn't it equally unsafe or a bad idea for these same people to open or conceal carry into other establishment? If some firearm owners can not handle a firearm safely while being at a firearm related events or establishments, then how can and why should Chipotle Grill, Target, Starbucks, or any other business trust gun owners who conceal or open carry into their establishment?

Field Tester
July 24, 2014, 01:48 AM
Good point. But what about CC? Why would I un-holster my carry gun (not to mention pull the trigger) in a gun store? What about a gun store is different than any other store or location I go to? I would no more whip out my carry gun to show a friend/acquaintance at a gun store than I would in the middle of a crowded restaurant. If I bring my carry gun into a gun shop with the intent to remove it from its holster, it’s only to fire it at the range (and there are strict safety rules for that). If I’m bringing it it for someone to look at it, then it’s not my carry gun that trip and will be unloaded and in a case.

If someone is taking there loaded carry weapon out for show and tell in public, well, I think more training is needed.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/03/robert-farago/windbreaker-drawstring-triggers-glock-negligent-discharge/

Although I agree with your position, I offer up to you instances like this. Even the "Pros" can't keep their personal defense weapon holstered when they should.
While I agree that if you're shopping for accessories for your CCW, you should not be handling that particular firearm, find another to carry for the day. We both know that some will not abide by this rule. Heck, no live ammo is supposed to be in firearms and look how well we follow that rule.

But ultimately it comes down to the insurance.

On another note, have you seen anyone carrying outside the shows, just hanging out?

Field Tester
July 24, 2014, 01:57 AM
Okay, if it's unsafe or not a "good idea" for people to carry loaded and holstered weapons into Gun Shops or Gun Shows, then why isn't it equally unsafe or a bad idea for these same people to open or conceal carry into other establishment? If some firearm owners can not handle a firearm safely while being at a firearm related events or establishments, then how can and why should Chipotle Grill, Target, Starbucks, or any other business trust gun owners who conceal or open carry into their establishment?
Because while they shouldn't be, people are pulling out their CCWs every five seconds to see if it will fit a new holster, if the tac light they're looking at is too big, if the crimson trace laser fits right, if the 10 round mag for their .45 clashes with their fanny packs.

Praxidike
July 24, 2014, 02:01 AM
Because while they shouldn't be, people are pulling out their CCWs every five seconds to see if it will fit a new holster, if the tac light they're looking at is too big, if the crimson trace laser fits right, if the 10 round mag for their .45 clashes with their fanny packs.
That makes some sense...

X-Rap
July 24, 2014, 02:03 AM
Basically it seems that john q public wants to try holster fit on his carry gun or show how great an action job he has and things go south from there.
Most of the shops I frequent have signs honoring carrying of weapons but requiring that they remain holstered while there.
I know of one incident locally in which an experienced former LEO gunshop employee pulled a trigger and shot a fellow employee without clearing a rifle that was brought in by a customer.
I also have seen 2 gunshow incidents in which vendors ND'ed and I have found a 22 rifle with a loaded mag on a table before.
I'd say gunshows are about even with idiots being 1/2 vendors and the other attendees.
Either way I can see why there are restrictive requirements.

Iron Sight
July 24, 2014, 02:03 AM
Some interesting thoughts for me coming across in this thread.

32_d3gr33s
July 24, 2014, 02:09 AM
but making EVERY single person that is carrying, remove and unload their weapon when entering, and then reload and reholster their gun when leaving is safe? Thats why i dont patronize places that think its ok for them to ban guns, but get upset when other places do...

Zach S
July 24, 2014, 02:14 AM
Gun shows I can understand. I dont go anymore, and dont miss them. They looked too much like flea markets, didn't offer any better pricing, and I've seen enough bad gun handling at one show to last a lifetime.

Stores and ranges, I kinda understand. If not for the signs, "show and tell" can get nerve racking... The LGS I frequent has (had?) a "no loaded firearms" sign on the door, that accomplishes one thing: folks dont handle hot carry guns in the store. They either leave it in their car, unload it, or CC normally.

He knows I'm in the last group, but has only kinda brought it up once. He asked if another customer could see my holster and I said "yeah, let me borrow some ears so I can go in the range and clear my pistol." I never heard anything else about it, but I've never handled a hot pistol in the store either...

You would probably be amazed at the number of folks who think its okay to show off their carry gun because they're in a gun store.

lxd55
July 24, 2014, 02:18 AM
but making EVERY single person that is carrying, remove and unload their weapon when entering, and then reload and reholster their gun when leaving is safe? Thats why i dont patronize places that think its ok for them to ban guns, but get upset when other places do...
if you do not like the rules, fine. just as long as you abide by them.

lxd55
July 24, 2014, 02:29 AM
That makes some sense...
as a range master at several gun shoots, the first thing you look for is to see if there is a mag in the well of a firearm. if you do you stop the person and tell them to please unload or leave. most unload,
some do not understand and ask you to explain. when this happens you say to them that we have a lot of people with firearms and you just cannot accept unknowns. the shows, shoots make there rules as does target or any other business or that is all. my house, my rules.

Praxidike
July 24, 2014, 02:30 AM
Gun shows I can understand. I dont go anymore, and dont miss them. They looked too much like flea markets, didn't offer any better pricing, and I've seen enough bad gun handling at one show to last a lifetime.

Stores and ranges, I kinda understand. If not for the signs, "show and tell" can get nerve racking... The LGS I frequent has (had?) a "no loaded firearms" sign on the door, that accomplishes one thing: folks dont handle hot carry guns in the store. They either leave it in their car, unload it, or CC normally.

He knows I'm in the last group, but has only kinda brought it up once. He asked if another customer could see my holster and I said "yeah, let me borrow some ears so I can go in the range and clear my pistol." I never heard anything else about it, but I've never handled a hot pistol in the store either...

You would probably be amazed at the number of folks who think its okay to show off their carry gun because they're in a gun store.
I'm in the last group too. I normally CC. Come to think about it, the few times that I did need to see if a holster or a magazine fit my gun, I had the sales associate test the fit using one of the same model firearm from their display case instead of pulling out my holstered gun.

The funny thing about it is the employees at most LGS I've been to carry (what I assume to be loaded) handguns, and I've seen, on more than one occasion, them pulling out their own firearms to show to me, other customers, and or other sales associates...

X-Rap
July 24, 2014, 02:31 AM
I was at one shop a few years ago (that is no longer open) that had a customer wanting to try a new holster and and drew his carry gun and cleared it at the counter with very poor muzzle discipline.
My last stop there since the owner acted as though it was fine.

lxd55
July 24, 2014, 02:42 AM
Some interesting thoughts for me coming across in this thread.
? like what?

Field Tester
July 24, 2014, 02:48 AM
That makes some sense...
Odd thing is that it kills the Libertarian inside of me to write this lol. :)

RustyShackelford
July 24, 2014, 02:57 AM
true story; a event I bring up on forums from time to time makes the point....
I was in a medium size gun shop that I did not go into often. While looking at a few items, I saw two intoxicated people stumble in with a large case.
The couple(male-female, 50-60 years old, red as Maine lobsters) went up to a young sales clerk & asked him to check into a big revolver. :uhoh:
They opened the case & pulled out a huge Ruger Super-Redhawk .454 Casull. They both had slurred speech & acted very unstable.
I slowly went up to the couple & asked to inspect the Ruger .454 revolver. The woman handed me the firearm & I opened the huge cylinder. Thankfully the Super-Redhawk was empty :D.
People like the couple I met are part of the reason I don't work in a gun shop or pawn store. :uhoh:

I'd add too, that people can mistreat or abuse nearly anything. Cars, RVs, jets, motorcycles, UAVs(remote "quad copters"), power tools, etc. Those items are not outlawed or regulated but you can quickly lose your license to use them if caught.

Baron66
July 24, 2014, 05:33 AM
The "no guns" signs do not carry any weight in Florida so I say carry concealed, keep it concealed, and no worries. Idiots that bring in a loaded weapon and start messing with it should be thrown out.

Deus Machina
July 24, 2014, 06:25 AM
It's a business thing, not a gun thing. Same sort of reason you have to turn your car off at the pump.
A couple local places here just have the policy that if it comes in on your belt, it stays on your belt.

dogmush
July 24, 2014, 07:30 AM
Gun Shows I can understand from the liability insurance prospective, and the high ratio of workers to nonworkers handling guns.

Gun shops and Ranges? ALL my local gun shops have some version of "legal concealed carry is fine, please leave it in the holster" language on their "No Loaded Guns" signs.

I wouldn't patronize a gunshop that wanted me to leave my CCW in the car, regardless of the law behind the sign.

DT Guy
July 24, 2014, 07:38 AM
Gun shows are one of the places it's very difficult to abide by the 'four rules'; there often isn't a 'safe' direction to point the firearm, we're actively checking triggers, the backstop is the crowd...you get the idea.

It is the nature of the gun show itself-and an implicit understanding we'll be (perhaps unintentionally) violating some of the most basic safety rules for handling guns-that makes them one of the very, very few logical 'no loaded guns' zones.


Larry

JT-AR-MG42
July 24, 2014, 07:47 AM
C'mon guys!

I respectfully suggest that those in favor of loaded carry at gun shows, ranges, and gun stores do just a little homework.

Get in touch with the NRA - who offers the ONLY affordable insurance for show promoters - and check into the price for
coverage for a anything goes gun show where no firearms will be required to be checked and unloaded guns are not required.

They will hang up on you.

Call your local agent who you have your home and car covered with.
Ask them about getting a policy to hold a gun show of ANY kind and then mention that loaded guns are fine as long they are not taken out of the holster
or a gun store where loaded guns are okey-dokey because you do not want to hurt your customers feelings.

I do not believe you will get an answer to that one at all, just silence.

But rather than get upset at how others run their show/business, set up your own.
You will quickly see that getting insurance is the first prerequisite for any show public venue.
Very few business owners can afford to be without insurance, and certainly not if any borrowed money is involved.

JT

Sam1911
July 24, 2014, 08:04 AM
In any establishment or venue where guns are to be handled it makes reasonable sense to have a "cold range" mentality and policy.

A handled gun is not a safe gun. A holstered gun IS a safe gun, but holstered guns have a funny way of getting handled, when folks are in a gun-handling venue (even if that gun was intended to stay holstered). Gun shows or stores are very different from a Target or Chipotle in that aspect. (I mean what kind of idiot would handle a firearm in a Target or Chipotle???)

This is the primary reason why 97%+ of shooting events (IDPA, USPSA, 3-gun, etc.) are run as COLD ranges. Get caught walking around off the line with a loaded gun? Go home early. (Among many other very rigorous safety precautions.)

The same rules make sense to apply to a show, and maybe to a store to some degree. (Depending on how well the staff can keep control over the patrons and their opportunities to display bad habits.)

Having said that, if you can and will RELIGIOUSLY keep your concealed carry sidearm tucked away and untouched, there is no problem. Concealed IS concealed. Reveal or draw it and expect to find yourself on the sidewalk outside promptly.

ATLDave
July 24, 2014, 08:25 AM
No. In public, the general rule is that lawful carriers are not handling their weapons and they definitely aren't pulling the trigger. They are leaving them holstered. This reduces the chances of a negligent discharge. It also decreases the chance of someone misunderstanding the situation and mistaking someone merely handling their gun for a threat.

Since those rules - don't handle guns in public and don't pull a trigger unless you want the gun to go off - aren't observed in the places you described, keeping loaded guns out of the equation is basic safety.

Go to a USPSA match. You will find that, except for the competitor actively running the course, the only place to handle guns are in designated safe areas. And the only place you cannot handle ammo - the safe areas.

rbernie
July 24, 2014, 08:44 AM
Does anyone else find it kind of hypocritical when all these pro-gun, pro-open carry, pro NRA, etc gun shows and gun shops forbid people from carrying a loaded firearm in their places of business,I frequent three (3) gun stores on a weekly basis, and have visited many more casually. I know of none that prohibit people from legally carrying a loaded firearm. Every single one, on the other hand, has a sign advising folk that guns brought in for work in cases are to be unloaded first, and that guns in holsters/cases ought to stay in the holster or case. Seems reasonable, and lots of prior posts have explained why.

jmr40
July 24, 2014, 09:02 AM
Many gunshops and ranges have signs telling customers that if they carry inside, the gun MUST stay in the holster until they enter the actual shooting lane. Seems like a fair compromise.

Gunshows used to allow carry, but stopped that a long time ago. There was 1 death a few years ago at an Atlanta area show when a vendor let a customer borrow his loaded revolver to try it out in a holster the man was considering. The man shot and killed his son somehow.

j1
July 24, 2014, 09:33 AM
Prax this is a very good post and thread. Thank you. It is good to think.

Tirod
July 24, 2014, 09:36 AM
This is a classic issue - collectively we understand the constitutional principle, but we also recognize the actual application.

I saw the same thing at the first OKC show I attended many years ago. A customer came to the table behind the one I was working, he had guns properly unloaded with ty raps thru the action. In the conversation he was haggling with the table vendor and added a small pistol to the deal. Pulled from his back pocket, the vendor immediately dropped the mag and ejected a round from the chamber. No harm no foul, but the big signs and his compliance on the visible firearms amounted to zilch. He circumvented the entire point.

The attitude that you can handle your loaded gun at all is where most go wrong. Like the samurai who holds to the cliched principle that he only draws the blade if it draws blood, we should hold that we only unholster the gun for two reasons: To shoot someone else, or immediately unload it.

The hundreds of anecdotes we read on forums reinforce that - how many times does displaying the weapon go bad, how many times does trying to check the fit or simply show it off go wrong? If we aren't going to use it, keep it holstered.

Gun shows in particular are all about showing it off, ergo, unload it first. If there was a safe middle ground option I think we'd discovered it over the last 200 years of gun handling. But, no, what we have confirmed most of all is that the stupid monster will freeze our risk assessment brain cells every time, and somebody eventually gets shot.

There is nothing good about having a loaded defensive firearm discharge when there was no threat or reason to have it out of the holster. So maybe the old samurai was right after all - don't pull it out unless you intend to pull the trigger. Otherwise, we just set ourselves up to hand over all reason to our inner trunk monkey.

NoVA Shooter
July 24, 2014, 10:18 AM
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/03/robert-farago/windbreaker-drawstring-triggers-glock-negligent-discharge/

Although I agree with your position, I offer up to you instances like this. Even the "Pros" can't keep their personal defense weapon holstered when they should.

Sadly, this type of thing happens more than it should. However, I will make the conjecture that negligence in 'protocols' of CC probably occurs at the same rate as negligence in remembering to unload a gun before entering. I'm sure there are plenty of incidences where someone came into a gun store with a gun they were intending to handle and that they were sure was unloaded.

I'm not going to begrudge a store having that policy (whether it's because of insurance or a false sense of safety), but I do feel a bit sad that I have to disarm before entering. :o


On another note, have you seen anyone carrying outside the shows, just hanging out?

Yep. I do it myself. I don't disarm until I need to (usually at the point I'm ready to enter the show). Sometimes I like chatting with friends or other patrons out in front of the venue. Matter of fact, the NRA booth usually has one or too armed volunteers. :)

Orion8472
July 24, 2014, 10:32 AM
I totally get what the OP is saying. On the other hand, I totally get that insurance legalities keep these events/locations "no loaded guns" compliant. There are TOO many people with whom I question whether or not they SHOULD be carrying. The rule is the best idea, I suppose.

I know myself. I trust me having my concealed handgun on me even at a range or a gunshow. At the range, I wouldn't be shooting that particular gun, and if I planned to do so, I'd have it unloaded and in the bag. At a gunshow, I'd never touch it. Not there for "items for my conceal carry pistol".

Again, I guess the rules are best kept.

Sam1911
July 24, 2014, 10:36 AM
At a gunshow, I'd never touch it. Not there for "items for my conceal carry pistol".

And this is really the key.

I've never been to a gun show, store, or shooting match that had metal detectors or a pat-down before entry. If you CAN and WILL keep it concealed and secured, you may go about your business without a worry. If you need new grips or a holster for your carry gun, CARRY something else that day, concealed, and bring in your "EDC" gun unloaded and bagged, as is appropriate for doing your gun gear shopping.

IF you do forget or have a case of the "stoopids" and that gun ends up out in the public space, the venue can and should invoke the rule and toss you out.

NoVA Shooter
July 24, 2014, 10:40 AM
Gun shows I can understand. I dont go anymore, and dont miss them. They looked too much like flea markets, didn't offer any better pricing, and I've seen enough bad gun handling at one show to last a lifetime.

Agreed (except for the fact that I still go to them :)). I don’t have an issue with the idea that certain venues are meant for handling firearms and because of that, it’s only prudent to have a “cold range” policy.


Stores and ranges, I kinda understand. If not for the signs, "show and tell" can get nerve racking... The LGS I frequent has (had?) a "no loaded firearms" sign on the door, that accomplishes one thing: folks dont handle hot carry guns in the store. They either leave it in their car, unload it, or CC normally.

This still requires competence and compliance. Personally, at a gun store, I don't feel safe(r) with or without that policy. I'd rather have a policy that says "No loaded firearms except CC which must remain holstered".

CoalTrain49
July 24, 2014, 10:54 AM
Gun shows I can understand. I dont go anymore, and dont miss them. They looked too much like flea markets, didn't offer any better pricing, and I've seen enough bad gun handling at one show to last a lifetime.

Flea market is a good description.

HankR
July 24, 2014, 11:00 AM
Most of the shops I frequent have signs honoring carrying of weapons but requiring that they remain holstered while there.

Of the three local stores I frequent, one does this, the other two don't mention or ban concealed carry. The one that does (in the "big city") has a large sign in the doorway that you actually need to step around stating something to the effect of "if you plan to unholster in the store, please clear the gun before coming in". Makes sense to me. I don't know about their insurance carrier, but they have been in business with this policy for a long time.

If you need new grips or a holster for your carry gun, CARRY something else that day, concealed, and bring in your "EDC" gun unloaded and bagged, as is appropriate for doing your gun gear shopping.

This, in spades. Once in that big city guns store I noticed a holster that might could work for the carry. I told the guy to leave it out, I needed to run to the truck to get my gun. When I came back, he commented that the gun was pretty warm for being in the car (midwestern winter), but he appreciated me clearing it out there instead of in his store.

Sam1911
July 24, 2014, 11:12 AM
... but he appreciated me clearing it out there instead of in his store.

This is an area of serious problem that all of these venues struggle with -- or ignore, more usually. And that is, if there is no safe muzzle direction and backstop IN the store, show, or range, there sure as HECK isn't one out in the dang parking lot! :eek:

We've taken to issuing dire warnings at matches I run or work, to the effect that if we catch you in your car, out in the bushes, in the port-a-john, BEHIND the porta-john, etc., etc., or ANYWHERE but a dedicated safe backstop with your weapon drawn, you're OUT.

Don't know why folks feel that sitting in a sheet metal and glass box in a public place will stop a bullet, but it's a bad habit we (almost) all get into.

Unless you can cast "Zone of Protection" (area effect, 2d4 against bullets under .45 caliber, and +3 against dorky role-playing game references) on your car, this is NOT A GOOD IDEA.


And gun shops and gun shows are stuck in that same rut, pretending that they don't create an absurdly dangerous condition by encouraging (at least tacitly) their patrons to be drawing, unloading/loading, and holstering firearms out in the public space. I suppose their front door is "+5 against lawyers?" :scrutiny:

I do get the idea that it is awful scary for a shop to create a safe area with a bullet trap and tell folks that it is ok to unload and load up there, in that spot inside the store, because that puts a lot of liability on the store. ("You TOLD him to draw his gun...you are responsible for the fact that he shot himself...") But the default reaction to that fear is to push people out into the public space to handle that detail. Out there where it is not the company's problem, except that now everyone in the area is at heightened risk.

Outlaw Man
July 24, 2014, 11:25 AM
The flea market analogy is a good one. There is a flea market close to where I live where the occasional person (well, there were two or three usual suspects) had a few guns for sale. I once had a .45 pointed directly at my gut while the guy proceeded to pull the trigger. Thankfully, it was unloaded. But that, and the ND another weekend, made me stop going altogether.

Most of the gun shops around here have signs prohibiting loaded firearms. Some specifically give exceptions for licensed, holstered guns, and others will give you verbal permission if you ask. It's totally the business owner's preference, and should be. In a small shop, particularly, it's much easier to "police" who is handling firearms and in what manner. At a gun show, it's usually a mad house and would be impossible to watch everything going on. The downside is they usually have the weakest security.

The SHOT Show takes it a step farther and requires all firearms to have their firing pins/strikers removed or be otherwise disabled. There's quite a bit of armed security there, though.

(I mean what kind of idiot would handle a firearm in a Target or Chipotle???)
You'd be surprised.

Or maybe you wouldn't. :D

dastardly-D
July 24, 2014, 11:29 AM
A gun is simply nothing but a dangerous tool ! If you're not an electrician, don't trust your own wiring, that stuff is dangerous ! If you don't know anything about flying would you steal somebody's airplane ? Let's see the average guy try and make their own black powder ? Same with a gun, unless you know about your own gun, don't go messing with it in public, which you're not supposed to anyhow ! A concealed gun in a ccp's possession should be concealed, it should not be handled by anyone in public. A gun in a rack or table at a gun show should be empty and verified so by the owner . Anyone handling any of those guns should be sure the gun is unloaded , but treated as if it is . Too bad so many people don't have the sense to know how to act in public ! Yeah, I know, I'm ranting, dumb ass people are exasperating !!:banghead:

rule303
July 24, 2014, 11:31 AM
I work as a vendor at quite a few gun shows. I know of two negligent discharges at shows within the last couple years, both were people pulling out their loaded CC gun. One was a private seller showing a potential buyer his LCP, which he then demonstrated the trigger pull by shooting a hole through his hand. The other was a customer who had a finger on the trigger of his Glock when re-holstering.
A gun shop is a much more controlled environment, and I have never seen one posted prohibiting carry. Most ask that your guns remain cased or holstered, because even at a gun shop someone walking in the door with weapons drawn will raise eyebrows.

MachIVshooter
July 24, 2014, 11:52 AM
To look at it from another angle, who here thinks they would ever need their defensive firearm in a gun shop or show? That is one respect in which gun shops and shows differ greatly from any other venue. What do you think would happen to the idiot who attempts armed robbery in either place? It may be rule that the patrons are disarmed, but I have yet to be at any example of either where the staff isn't.

But that is just another perspective on the matter; it really is about safety. Same reason MPs are the only ones allowed to be armed on a military base; it's obviously not because the military dislikes guns.

Having said that, shows are the only place around here I know of that require the guns be unloaded. All of the shops are fine with loaded, holstered handguns.

HankR
July 24, 2014, 11:53 AM
Hi Sam,

I agree that normally sending folks outside to clear weapons is just passing the problem down the line, but in this case it was probably OK.

"Big city" was somewhat facetious. I think they did have over 150,000 people at the last census, just barely. So picture a cinder block building, parking lot in front, nothing on on the right side of the store for quite a ways, the side of a strip mall about 200 feet down the road to the left, and a corn or bean field out back. My wife says it looks like the lonely buildings out on the interstate that advertise adult videos. I did find a sufficient backstop*, but I will suggest that they stick a sand barrel out there next time I go.

* I stood about 12 feet from the block wall, and aimed at the dirt just in front of the wall while clearing the gun. I had the strip mall to my back, and a dumpster to my right, and open fields to my left. What would you recommend? This place also has an indoor shooting range, so maybe I could have asked to go in there and clear it.

Sam1911
July 24, 2014, 12:03 PM
Hank,

Sounds like you did the very best you could under the circumstances.

My issue is with the bigger picture. Stores (or gunshows, where the problem is x100) that put up a sign and now some unknown (but significant) number of patrons are out there, somewhere drawing and manipulating their firearms specifically BECAUSE OF that sign and policy.

When pressed, the venue or store owners will say, "we expect that people will unload and case their guns at home before they come here..." but the sign gives the lie to that theory. The folks who most need to see that sign will see it JUST before they set foot inside, and what then? Do they go home and unload their guns and come back? No way. They go out to the car, draw from that IWB while scrunched into the bucket seat of their Camry, point it at their feet (gotta keep it below the windows so no one sees... :eek:) or point it through the door at the family in the minivan that just parked next to them, and do their business.

HankR
July 24, 2014, 12:14 PM
gotta keep it below the windows so no one sees...

I was more worried that someone in the strip mall, or driving by, would think I was sneaking out behind the dumpster to take a leak. I coulda/shoulda planned ahead, but I thought I had the holster problem solved, and was trying it out on a longer trip to the big city. Decided I didn't like it, mentioned same to wife, who suggested I drop her at the sewing store and go look at the gun store for a suitable replacement. For you single guys, when the wife says "are you sure you don't want to stop by the gun store while we're in town, the answer is always "yes dear".

Orion8472
July 24, 2014, 12:18 PM
Local gunstore here has a sign to that says, "No Loaded Firearms", but they said it is for those who are bringing them in for either pawn or to sell. Conceal carry guys needn't bother unloading if it stays concealed.

Wildbillz
July 24, 2014, 12:53 PM
I can't count the number of times I have had guns pointed at me in a gunshow. I have been at three of them when there was a ND. So ya I understand and agree with the No loaded firearms in a gunshow thing.

Last show I was at a fella accidently shot his Father-in-law while reloading his carry piece after exiting the show. FIL didn't make it through the night.

I trust my handling of a loaded firearm but Everyone else is Suspect...

WB

gun_with_a_view
July 24, 2014, 01:12 PM
I have been at three of them when there was a ND

My biggest fear is an incompetent person attending CCW training who brings a handgun with them will have an ND when informed to empty their gun. I was flabbergasted at the percentage of people entered the classroom with a loaded firearm at the first class I attended. Equally amazing was the two instructors actual police officers, who seemed oblivious to the danger.

AirForceShooter
July 24, 2014, 01:29 PM
I agree with the unloaded policy.
The gun shows I attend go one step further.
They zip tie your g so it's disabled.
When you leave they cut the tie off

AFS

Sam1911
July 24, 2014, 01:42 PM
The gun shows I attend go one step further.
They zip tie your g so it's disabled.
When you leave they cut the tie off
Yeah, that's what the shows up here do too, if you walk in with a gun to sell or trade.

(Of course, again, there's no pat-down at the door so concealed weapons don't get that treatment. Most folks seem to be able to keep it under wraps, though.

Then again, who's to say you didn't bring a set of snips for that zip tie...?)

NoVA Shooter
July 24, 2014, 01:46 PM
To look at it from another angle, who here thinks they would ever need their defensive firearm in a gun shop or show? That is one respect in which gun shops and shows differ greatly from any other venue. What do you think would happen to the idiot who attempts armed robbery in either place? It may be rule that the patrons are disarmed, but I have yet to be at any example of either where the staff isn't.

Gun shops still do get robbed. Maybe not often or successfully, but it does happen. But I think the greater point is that regardless of where I am, why should I be denied the right to have the means to defend myself? I don't want to rely on someone else (the clerk at the gun store or the security guard at the mall) to defend me. It's not their job and what if they determine it's not in their best interest (which is their right) should the circumstance arise.

We always talk about how we carry not because we expect something to happen, but to be prepared in case something does. Should that change in a gun store? No, I don't think I'll ever need my CC in a gun store, but that doesn't me I never will need it.


But that is just another perspective on the matter; it really is about safety. Same reason MPs are the only ones allowed to be armed on a military base; it's obviously not because the military dislikes guns.

I would say the perception of safety. ;)

JustinJ
July 24, 2014, 01:57 PM
Remember that 50% of the people you meet are below average....

Guns and the sum of all those averages concentrated in large numbers? Uhh..... <sigh>...

So...then wouldn't it make sense to oppose these "below average" people from being allowed to carry guns in other public places?

Does it not seem odd to say gun owners can't safely carry loaded guns at a gun show but its fine for them to do so pretty much everywhere else?

Just playing devil's advocate.

GEM
July 24, 2014, 01:58 PM
Our LGS signs say - Don't handle your concealed weapon!

At shows, idiots tend to do that. We've gotten 30.06 signs because of an incident. I talked to the show runner who said he hated to put up the sign but he had to deal with the liability.

In Target, you probably don't have a reason to remove and fondle your gun. At shows and stores, idiots do that.

Onward Allusion
July 24, 2014, 02:04 PM
Strictly talking CC.

Hell yes, it is hypocritical to not allow a loaded gun.

It should be - no loaded UN-HOLSTERED weapons.

Sam1911
July 24, 2014, 02:05 PM
So...then wouldn't it make sense to oppose these "below average" people from being allowed to carry guns in other public places? It would be rational to do so, but not practical (in other words, it really CAN'T be stopped) and would be anathema to the exercise of the rights of free peoples.

Does it not seem odd to say gun owners can't safely carry loaded guns at a gun show but its fine for them to do so pretty much everywhere else?Only if you've missed the most pertinent posts in this thread, explaining the difference between going out in public where no one handles any guns ever except in the most dire and extenuating of circumstances, and going to a gun-handling event and/or venue -- where everyone's handling LOTS of guns and very strict practices must be observed to keep everyone safe.

Again, though, this is mostly a re-active system. Having the rule in place gives the operators immediate standing to evict anyone who illustrates that they cannot follow the proper protocols. They aren't going to search you for concealed weapons going in. But they CAN toss you out if you forget to keep yours in your pants.

Just playing devil's advocate.
Uh huh. The devil has a lot of representation around here.

Onward Allusion
July 24, 2014, 02:13 PM
Holy crap! I just went through 3 pages of this thread and can't believe that most of you guys sound exactly like the anti's who do not want loaded guns in their establishments? A lot of y'all are trying to rationalize it with the "dumb gun owner" bit, but isn't that exactly what the anti's also claim? Dumb gun owners who are not responsible enough to:

- have a gun store near a school
- have a gun near a school
- have a gun at a sporting event
- . . . . . and the list goes on.

Unbelievable.

jr_watkins
July 24, 2014, 02:25 PM
To answer the OP, of course it is hypocritical!! I've also just read every post in this thread and even though I normally respect the opinions of this room, most of you are double talking and making excuses. All the reasons being sited (insurance, lots of guns, gun handling, lots of idiots, guns are dangerous, etc.) would bring a landslide of scorn if sited by a big box store as a reason not to allow guns.

You are playing both sides. The only difference is that you LIKE the gun shows and the gun stores and the gun ranges so you are willing to compromise for them without making a fuss. Yup, that is hypocrisy.

JustinJ
July 24, 2014, 02:32 PM
It would be rational to do so, but not practical (in other words, it really CAN'T be stopped) and would be anathema to the exercise of the rights of free peoples.

Lots of things can't be stopped, not exactly a valid reason not to attempt to reduce incidents thereof. ND do in fact happen in public by CCers fairly often, at least as often as at gun shows. Hell, some idiot just recently shot his off his willy with a 1911 while trying to holster it(not sure if that meant 'shove into waste band').

Only if you've missed the most pertinent posts in this thread, explaining the difference between going out in public where no one handles any guns ever except in the most dire and extenuating of circumstances, and going to a gun-handling event and/or venue -- where everyone's handling LOTS of guns and very strict practices must be observed to keep everyone safe.

There are in fact idiots who do handle guns in public outside of dire situations, in addition to ND's by dropping guns in bathrooms, accidentally leaving them laying around in public, etc, etc. Its just odd to me how black and white the gun community seems to see CC issues except in this circumstance, as if the risks must be directly observed to be accepted as real.

Again, though, this is mostly a re-active system. Having the rule in place gives the operators immediate standing to evict anyone who illustrates that they cannot follow the proper protocols. They aren't going to search you for concealed weapons going in. But they CAN toss you out if you forget to keep yours in your pants.

Many of the guns shows i attend actually have uniformed LE at the door asking about loaded weapons and checking/securing those brought in. So to carry concealed inside the venue one must be willing to lie to a LE officer.

Uh huh. The devil has a lot of representation around here.

I just see nuance where many refuse.

Sam1911
July 24, 2014, 02:52 PM
Many of the guns shows i attend actually have uniformed LE at the door asking about loaded weapons and checking/securing those brought in. So to carry concealed inside the venue one must be willing to lie to a LE officer.And?

Sam1911
July 24, 2014, 03:00 PM
Lots of things can't be stopped, not exactly a valid reason not to attempt to reduce incidents thereof. How?

ND do in fact happen in public by CCers fairly often, at least as often as at gun shows.Gonna have to see some kind of basis for that belief, one way or the other. Seems to me a very difficult thing to quantify, and an almost impossible thing to qualify based on rates and opportunities and time involved. (E.g.: Millions of people carry for several hours every day. There aren't gun shows every day, let alone millions attending so the rates of accident will be mighty difficult to compare.)

There are in fact idiots who do handle guns in public outside of dire situations, in addition to ND's by dropping guns in bathrooms, accidentally leaving them laying around in public, etc, etc. Its just odd to me how black and white the gun community seems to see CC issues except in this circumstance, as if the risks must be directly observed to be accepted as real.I'm not sure what your point is. There are a few goobers who get themselves into trouble during their everyday concealed carry routine. That doesn't mitigate or modify somehow the special considerations of conditions in a gun show. Kind of like saying, "Sometimes bears hurt people. But don't worry, climbing into a pen with tigers is dangerous too!" :confused:

Sam1911
July 24, 2014, 03:04 PM
You are playing both sides. The only difference is that you LIKE the gun shows and the gun stores and the gun ranges so you are willing to compromise for them without making a fuss. Yup, that is hypocrisy.

Not really. For me it is exactly the same. I (used to, sometimes, occasionally) patronize gun shows, even though they have a "no loaded firearms" policy. I patronize Target or whomever the same way. If for some reason I'm irresponsible enough to have my gun out needlessly, they can ask me to leave. And I'll go. If I keep it in the holster they don't have a problem and I don't have a problem, and we conclude our business amicably.

No muss, no fuss.

DT Guy
July 24, 2014, 03:11 PM
I always thought the appropriate sign for a gun shop to post regarding CC would be something like:

We permit the carry of concealed weapons by those duly licensed to do so. But if you pull yours....we'll pull ours!

:)


Larry

Old Dog
July 24, 2014, 03:17 PM
Bah. Pragmatism, logic and caution should never be confused with hypocrisy -- or compromise.

Get off the computer for a while and join the real world, guys. No one here is "making excuses" or "sounding like the antis." There is a difference between an idealist, and an idealist with experience.

jr_watkins
July 24, 2014, 03:30 PM
No Sam1911, it's hypocrisy because when the big box store says you can't bring in your [loaded] gun you cry second amendment rights etc (which I agree with 100%), but when the gun store, range, show does it mums the word. You may choose not to attend or go to the gun store, but you don't show the same outrage as when the non-gun store does the same thing. It is by definition a double standard.

Sam1911
July 24, 2014, 03:55 PM
Not so, Junior!

I don't cry anything... a private entity (store, gun show promoter, range, etc.) cannot in any way EVER violate my 2nd Amendment rights. The 2nd Amendment speaks only to what the GOVERNMENT and may not do.

JustinJ
July 24, 2014, 04:04 PM
Quote:
Many of the guns shows i attend actually have uniformed LE at the door asking about loaded weapons and checking/securing those brought in. So to carry concealed inside the venue one must be willing to lie to a LE officer.

And?

And...at some shows its not just a reactive system as you stated.

How?

How do you reduce unsafe handling and ND in public? Adequate mandatory training, education and testing for CC permits is a good start, in my opinion.

Gonna have to see some kind of basis for that belief, one way or the other. Seems to me a very difficult thing to quantify, and an almost impossible thing to qualify based on rates and opportunities and time involved. (E.g.: Millions of people carry for several hours every day. There aren't gun shows every day, let alone millions attending so the rates of accident will be mighty difficult to compare.)

Are you saying millions CC everyday or speaking in hypothetical? If not, then i'm gona also ask for some data because i seriously doubt a million CCiers carry each day.

Admittedly, i don't have actual numbers to back up my claim but i believe i hear significantly more stories about hazardous concealed carry events much more often than NGs at gun shows or shops.

I'm not sure what your point is. There are a few goobers who get themselves into trouble during their everyday concealed carry routine. That doesn't mitigate or modify somehow the special considerations of conditions in a gun show. Kind of like saying, "Sometimes bears hurt people. But don't worry, climbing into a pen with tigers is dangerous too!"

The goobers you speak of don't just get themselves into trouble, they unfortunately put all those around them in danger as well. My point is that there is a bit of hypocricy in that restrictions to avoid such events at gun shows are palatable to the gun community (most anyways), but people who express concerns about risks of concealed carry in public are demonized, called socialists or subjected to silly mantras. Why is it too much to ask somebody not to carry at a school to avoid ND's but it is okay at a gun show? People can't get robbed outside a gun show? A mass shooter couldn't attack there?

coloradokevin
July 24, 2014, 04:16 PM
I understand the reason for the prohibition on loaded weapons in gun shows… the rationale is the same as the one we use during training scenarios at work (where loaded guns are also prohibited). In short, at an event where thousands of people with various levels of training WILL be handling guns, and often operating the actions and triggers on these guns, inviting a loaded gun into that environment is simply an invitation for an accident to happen.

I wish this wasn't so, but people can be careless at times, and it only takes one person who "knew" the gun he was handling was "unloaded" before something bad happens.

The gun show scenario is quite a bit different from the average defensive carry situation. For a normal CCW holder the gun will be put on when they leave their house, and not touched again until it is taken off back at home. Even in law enforcement I spend 98% or more of my on-duty time doing activities that don't involve handling my gun.

JustinJ
July 24, 2014, 04:19 PM
I think we all agree that handling loaded weapons is a no-no at gun shows. But the prohibition against carrying them is what is being discussed.

Sam1911
July 24, 2014, 04:27 PM
And...at some shows its not just a reactive system as you stated. Really? Ok. So they ask to zip-tie any weapons you show them, at the door. That's all they do. They aren't stopping anyone from entering with a concealed sidearm.

Proactive? Reactive? Maybe that's one of the nuances you were talking about.

Theohazard
July 24, 2014, 04:29 PM
Holy crap! I just went through 3 pages of this thread and can't believe that most of you guys sound exactly like the anti's who do not want loaded guns in their establishments? A lot of y'all are trying to rationalize it with the "dumb gun owner" bit, but isn't that exactly what the anti's also claim? Dumb gun owners who are not responsible enough to:

- have a gun store near a school
- have a gun near a school
- have a gun at a sporting event
- . . . . . and the list goes on.

Unbelievable.
Your argument is fundamentally flawed: Nobody is arguing that the prohibition of loaded guns in guns shows should be banned by law. These are private events, and therefore the owners and organizers should have the right to decide what happens inside their doors. But the antis want to pass laws banning people from carrying in those places you listed, and that's the fundamental difference.

I have no problem if a gun show or gun shop (or any other private establishment) wants to make their own rules; they should be completely free to do so. And I had enough loaded guns pointed at me while working at a gun shop that I think it's probably a good idea from a safety standpoint. And anyone who thinks that makes me the same as the antis simply isn't thinking this through.

it's hypocrisy because when the big box store says you can't bring in your [loaded] gun you cry second amendment rights etc (which I agree with 100%), but when the gun store, range, show does it mums the word. You may choose not to attend or go to the gun store, but you don't show the same outrage as when the non-gun store does the same thing. It is by definition a double standard.
I think most people aren't being hypocritical. I know I'm not. If a private establishment like Target or Chipotle wants to make their own rules and request for customers to not carry guns in their store, that's their right. I don't like it, but I fully support their right to do so. And anyone who thinks that's a Second Amendment violation obviously doesn't understand the Second Amendment. That's like claiming it's a First Amendment violation when a mod deletes a post here on THR.

And there is also a fundamental difference between, say, Target and an LGS. When was the last time you saw someone point a gun at someone when you were at Target? It probably doesn't happen very often, so there's much less of a need for Target to make rules regarding guns. But at an LGS, range, or gun show, that happens all the time. I had guns -- loaded and not -- pointed at me all the time at the LGS where I worked. People loved to pull out their carry gun for you to look at it. One time someone pulled out a loaded Glock and pointed it at an employee's face so he could show him the broken flashlight that was attached to it. And his finger was on the trigger.

Sam1911
July 24, 2014, 04:29 PM
How do you reduce unsafe handling and ND in public? Adequate mandatory training, education and testing for CC permits is a good start, in my opinion.
Ok, no, we aren't going to do that. They don't prove to reduce any dangers to anyone in the states that require them, as compared to the states that don't. So do you have any other ideas?

Or is this one of those, "well, we have to do SOMETHING, even if it doesn't work, we have to TRY...." sorts of warm fuzzies?

Sam1911
July 24, 2014, 04:31 PM
Are you saying millions CC everyday or speaking in hypothetical? If not, then i'm gona also ask for some data because i seriously doubt a million CCiers carry each day.

Oookay. PA has about 700,000 LCTF holders, some portion of which carry every day. That's one state out of fifty. "Millions" doesn't seem like much of a stretch.

:rolleyes:

Sam1911
July 24, 2014, 04:32 PM
Why is it too much to ask somebody not to carry at a school to avoid ND's but it is okay at a gun show? People can't get robbed outside a gun show? A mass shooter couldn't attack there?
I don't ask anyone not to carry at a gun show. I DO carry at gun shows.

If they can't keep their loaded firearm holstered, I have no problem with asking them to leave. Same as I would at a school.


...and you are being deliberately obtuse if you pretend you don't understand the difference between "lots of folks handling and manipulating many many weapons in a crowded space" and a concealed carrier walking through (or teaching in, or mopping the floors in, or whatever) a school.

jr_watkins
July 24, 2014, 04:34 PM
it's hypocrisy because when the big box store says you can't bring in your [loaded] gun you cry second amendment rights etc (which I agree with 100%), but when the gun store, range, show does it mums the word.

a private entity (store, gun show promoter, range, etc.) cannot in any way EVER violate my 2nd Amendment rights. The 2nd Amendment speaks only to what the GOVERNMENT and may not do.

Agreed. I should not have used 2nd Amendment rights in my statement as you are correct that we aren't talking about a government infringement.

scaatylobo
July 24, 2014, 04:44 PM
I used to announce that I was an LEO ---- then was told to unload,REALLY = NO DISCHARGE PAIL !!.

My dept R & R's left me no room to handle my gun to go into a show,and not even into a mental ward when duty sent us there.

So after a few 'heated' discussions at the door,I kept my yap shut and went with CONCEALED CARRY !.

I am of the strong opinion that any and all AD's or whatever you want to call them = in a public place should be an arrest situation.

If that were the norm,bet there would be NO incidents as any who felt the need to show it ---- would be VERY SURE it was empty,OR they would lose their RIGHT to bear arms.

A few years back I went to a LGS,they had the same rules of telling you that your pistol had to be unloaded.

An elderly man that always went to the shows with his buddy,tried to clear his 1911 in the parking lot while inside his vehicle.

He shot the artery in his leg and was dead in minutes.

Its that kind of incident that I see as very sad,and I avoid handling my firearm unless practicing at a range -- or actually using it for the purpose I carry.

But yes,I do dry fire after being VERY,VERY sure she is unloaded.

Jaxondog
July 24, 2014, 04:48 PM
What makes a proprietor any more trained than the next guy that is legal to carry? Just because someone owns a gun shop does not make him the wizard of Oz.

Sam1911
July 24, 2014, 04:51 PM
What makes a proprietor any more trained than the next guy that is legal to carry? Just because someone owns a gun shop does not make him the wizard of Oz.
:) Nope, but it does make him the owner, and the owner can do as he pleases -- and can write the rules for his guests while on his premises. After all, it's his insurance that takes the hit if he screws up.

NoVA Shooter
July 24, 2014, 04:52 PM
How do you reduce unsafe handling and ND in public? Adequate mandatory training, education and testing for CC permits is a good start, in my opinion.


Adequate? By whose definition? Who controls the process? Honestly, it wouldn't matter even if there was a way guarantee the process would be fair. That type of control has never worked in the past. Take driving as an example. In order to drive, you must have adequate training, education, and testing, but all of this fails to prevent people from doing stupid things once they get past the mandatory regulations (we still have bad drivers that do the very things they were trained not to do). Knowing and doing are not the same; willful disregard of the rules and a lackadaisical attitude to processes cannot be trained, educated, or tested out of society.



Are you saying millions CC everyday or speaking in hypothetical? If not, then i'm gona also ask for some data because i seriously doubt a million CCiers carry each day.

Admittedly, i don't have actual numbers to back up my claim but i believe i hear significantly more stories about hazardous concealed carry events much more often than NGs at gun shows or shops.


That's part of the point. If we define a carry event as one person carrying a gun for one hour, and we define a gun show event as one person attending a gun show for one hour, the number of carry events is vastly larger than the number of gun show events on any given day, week, year, etc. It's perfectly logical to expect that the number of NDs associated to carry events will be higher than to the number associated gun show events simply because of the discrepancy in how much more carrying is done. That does not mean a ND is more likely to happen during a carry event. A true comparison will be the rate of NDs for each event type.

It would be like saying it's safer to swim in the winter than the summer simply because so many more drownings happen in the summer.

astra600
July 24, 2014, 05:13 PM
In North Las Vegas, NV (the armpit of Clark county) the city rule on CC is it has to be on your person at all times, unless you have a secured gun safe of some sort in your vehicle. Car break ins are a daily thing there and the police don't want more stolen guns than they already have.

If I am looking for an accessory at a gun show I will OC or bring a gun case, and of course show the police/security at the door so the can check it's serial number and run a plastic rib through it. If a gun show is so dangerous I need to CC, I don't need to be there. Since you can't really check a holsters fit with the slide back a bit I will ask for a couple of more plastic strips so I can put one back on after taking the first one off to try the holster.

JustinJ
July 24, 2014, 05:20 PM
Really? Ok. So they ask to zip-tie any weapons you show them, at the door. That's all they do. They aren't stopping anyone from entering with a concealed sidearm.

Proactive? Reactive? Maybe that's one of the nuances you were talking about.

I imagine charges would ensue if one lied to the on duty cop about carrying a concealed weapon. No, no nuance, that's pretty blatantly PRO-active.

Oookay. PA has about 700,000 LCTF holders, some portion of which carry every day. That's one state out of fifty. "Millions" doesn't seem like much of a stretch.

One state that is hardly representative of the others. 10% daily is generous and that would put as at 70K. Yeah, millions, especially with an "S" on the end is a pretty big stretch. I love in a very pro-gun state, know countless permit holders and very, very few of those carry daily on their person, if ever.

So the rate of risk of injury of loaded weapons is sufficient to prohibit loaded weapons at gun shows, does that mean the risk of such from concealed carry is just not adequate to make restrictions acceptable? Its a matter of degrees, then? Because that seems awfully counter to the normal ideological rhetoric i hear.

Ok, no, we aren't going to do that. They don't prove to reduce any dangers to anyone in the states that require them, as compared to the states that don't. So do you have any other ideas?

I think you missed the word adequate. If you can cite a study which shows that real training (one six hour course and a few rounds doesn't count), please do cite it. Or does it not concern you that a person with zero gun knowledge, experience or training can buy a gun, get a permit(or not in some states) and carry it having no idea how to use it or about gun safety?

An IQ test would be nice too but i'm not getting overzealous.

I don't ask anyone not to carry at a gun show. I DO carry at gun shows.

Okay, didn't know we were talking about what you do specifically.

..and you are being deliberately obtuse if you pretend you don't understand the difference between "lots of folks handling and manipulating many many weapons in a crowded space" and a concealed carrier walking through (or teaching in, or mopping the floors in, or whatever) a school.

Really, gona straw man, now? Where exactly did i say or imply they were the same or had equal levels of risk? I'm just asking where the level or risk of ND becomes high enough to prohibit carrying loaded guns, and not just of you.

JustinJ
July 24, 2014, 05:23 PM
Adequate? By whose definition? Who controls the process? Honestly, it wouldn't matter even if there was a way guarantee the process would be fair. That type of control has never worked in the past. Take driving as an example. In order to drive, you must have adequate training, education, and testing, but all of this fails to prevent people from doing stupid things once they get past the mandatory regulations (we still have bad drivers that do the very things they were trained not to do). Knowing and doing are not the same; willful disregard of the rules and a lackadaisical attitude to processes cannot be trained, educated, or tested out of society.

I see, so get rid of all requirements for drivers education? Because it doesn't prevent all accidents it has no value? Heck, meds are rarely 100% effecitve, guess we shouldnt take them? Seat belts aren't either...no point, then? All or nothing arguments are not realistic.

RetiredUSNChief
July 24, 2014, 05:57 PM
Hypocritical? No. Annoying? Yes.

But this is because I know I'm not one of those slack-jawed, booger-eating morons who doesn't know how to safely carry and handle my personal firearms in crowded market places.

I mean, everybody else here knows that about me, right?

:)

tuna
July 24, 2014, 07:01 PM
Yes - I find it hypocritical. I also find it irritating that the fairgrounds that usually has the gun show has a "no weapons" policy for other events it holds.

Of course, this is all rumor. I don't read signs too well. Concealed is concealed.

One thing of note - when the off duty LEO (read that as over paid mall cop) asks if you have ammo, it doesn't go over well to ask "Why, did they take your one bullet away Barney?"

RetiredUSNChief
July 24, 2014, 07:22 PM
A little expounding on my last comment.

When I go to a gun show, my carry weapon is my carry weapon. That never changes. It's not a show-and-tell piece, it's not a for sale piece, it's not for trade. And it NEVER comes out of its holster unless there is a NEED for it. (Zip-tying not withstanding.)

If I am going to a gun show with the intent to sell or trade something myself, then I'll carry that separately. It will NOT be my carry weapon at any point, period.

If somebody notices I'm carrying and comments something along the lines of "Nice gun!", my respons will likely be along the lines of "Thank you! How do you like the grips?" because that's ALL they're going to see of it.


Along with my own personal philosophy of firearms handling with respect to having to have my gun zip-tied, I AM THE ONE WHO CONTROLS THE WEAPON. I don't know how my gun would be handled in the process of unloading/verifying in preparation for sip-tying at any given event. If I'm required to hand over my gun for unloading/verification, I will refuse to do so if it's loaded. That's my control philosophy. They will get an already unloaded gun from me because handing someone else a loaded gun outside of hunting or a shooting range just ain't gonna happen.

Which means that I will already have my carry weapon unloaded (done in a "safe" place of my own choosing) and ready for their inspection. My loaded magazines will be in my pocket or magazine holders.

And as a side note...being zip-tied does not change my philosophy on my carry weapon. It stays in my holster unless there is a NEED to draw it.

DT Guy
July 24, 2014, 09:09 PM
I see, so get rid of all requirements for drivers education? Because it doesn't prevent all accidents it has no value? Heck, meds are rarely 100% effecitve, guess we shouldnt take them? Seat belts aren't either...no point, then? All or nothing arguments are not realistic.

What's 'enough'? I have something in the thousands of hours..do you? If not, I find your training insufficient.

See how that works?


Larry

Sam1911
July 24, 2014, 10:39 PM
and of course show the police/security at the door so the can check it's serial number and run a plastic rib through it.Wait, WTH? The police check the serial numbers on any gun you enter with? Egad. So just by entering you consent to a "search" of sorts. That's ... great.

If a gun show is so dangerous I need to CC, I don't need to be there.If ANY place is so dangerous I need to CC, I don't need to be there. And yet, sometimes places are dangerous whether I expected them to be or not. And even if the show isn't dangerous, the exterior of the venue, the walk to my car, etc. may certainly be.

If I could predict WHERE and WHEN I'd need my gun, I'd just stay home that day...

Sam1911
July 24, 2014, 10:40 PM
I imagine charges would ensue if one lied to the on duty cop about carrying a concealed weapon. No, no nuance, that's pretty blatantly PRO-active.Really? :D Ok then. Guess they'll have to start up those x-ray machines and metal detectors. :D

Sam1911
July 24, 2014, 10:43 PM
One state that is hardly representative of the others. 10% daily is generous and that would put as at 70K. Yeah, millions, especially with an "S" on the end is a pretty big stretch. I love in a very pro-gun state, know countless permit holders and very, very few of those carry daily on their person, if ever.Oy vey. Million. Million(s). MILLIONS. Whatever. A dumb thing to sit and argue over. Clearly FAAAAR more man-hours of carrying are executed by average folks every day than in a year's worth of folks carrying on the occasional Saturday or Sunday gun show. So your point is vapid.

So the rate of risk of injury of loaded weapons is sufficient to prohibit loaded weapons at gun shows, does that mean the risk of such from concealed carry is just not adequate to make restrictions acceptable?Again, if they aren't doing SEARCHES, then they aren't prohibiting anything, except by name. And at any rate the answer to your question is yes.

Because that seems awfully counter to the normal ideological rhetoric i hear.You need to listen to better rhetoric. And stop ignoring the crux of the matter (handling firearms vs. non-handling concealed carry).

Sam1911
July 24, 2014, 10:56 PM
I think you missed the word adequate. If you can cite a study which shows that real training (one six hour course and a few rounds doesn't count), please do cite it.Ok, so you're saying that none of the various required carry classes that our more onerous states require are adequate? Well, on the one hand that kind of makes my point. We already have some pretty intrusive, expensive, bothersome class requirements in some states -- to exercise a basic human right -- and you STILL don't think they're "enough." But that's what so many who believe like you do say: Just a little more restriction and control and then we'll be "safe." Just a liiiitle more. That would be reasonable...it's for the children!

:rolleyes: :D

Or does it not concern you that a person with zero gun knowledge, experience or training can buy a gun, get a permit(or not in some states) and carry it having no idea how to use it or about gun safety? Freedom is not safe. It carries with it certain risks. So to answer your question, NO. It does not bother me at all.

My fellow citizens of the Commonwealth of PA seem to have figured this out and get along mighty fine without taking any coursework or proving proficiency. And there is no higher rate of "ADs" or arrests for assault, or any other unpleasantness among OUR concealed carriers than there are among the Nevadans or Floridians or any others in states where extensive class time and/or range time is required to qualify for permission to carry a gun.

Absent of evidence to the contrary, you have NO argument at all.

If there WAS evidence to prove a public benefit, it would still be an unacceptable infringement on a right to require such, but at least then you'd have something to point to. As it is ... nada.

An IQ test would be nice too but i'm not getting overzealous. Go for all the marbles. Better make it a literacy test, law test, loyalty test, mental health check, proof of income and good credit? Maybe just cut right to the chase and say (pick your favorite underclass) can't carry guns.

Okay, didn't know we were talking about what you do specifically.The word "you" seemed to get tossed around a lot. I don't necessarily agree with the status quo nor perceive "prohibitions" to be exactly what they're advertised to be.

Sam1911
July 24, 2014, 11:01 PM
Where exactly did i say or imply they were the same or had equal levels of risk? I'm just asking where the level or risk of ND becomes high enough to prohibit carrying loaded guns, and not just of you.You did put them into the same sentence, seeming to imply that if one was acceptable then the other must be equivalently so. Perhaps you misrepresented your position.

Where does it become "high enough?" When folks are packed into a space where there are lots of guns out and being handled, that would be "high enough."

Of course, I don't say prohibit, because these places ARE NOT PROHIBITING ANYTHING. (No search, no enforcement until after the fact.) They just set the groundwork for immediate corrective action if someone proves insufficiently careful.

texasgun
July 24, 2014, 11:18 PM
as said before: at gun shows/ in gun stores people "fiddle around" with guns and pull the trigger.

same holds true for gun ranges so the only time a weapon is loaded there is when it points downrange...

Pit4Brains
July 24, 2014, 11:43 PM
As far as ranges go, the public (daily membership req.) range that I shoot at has very strict rules on handling firearms. They can only be handled while the line is hot. That goes for cased firearms as well as uncased. Cased firearms will be uncased / cased on the bench with the business end down range. The only holstering is done while range is hot and you are drawing on target. During a cease fire, that firearm is on the bench with the action open. The only people walking around with holstered loaded firearms are the RSO's. Being a public range there are hundreds of shooters there everyday with all levels of experience. Heck I had a guy walk down range one morning while I was getting ready to squeeze off a round. It was just me and him, we had the flag out but he thought I was done firing. There are idiots out there.
Law enforcement officers do not bring firearms into my wife's hospital either, even while escorting cons. Too many loonies in close quarters. If I owned a gun shop, I would not like to have another person with a loaded firearm in my shop. I'd reserve that benefit for myself. I'd actually ask that all guns for sell, trade, appraisal or smithing be cased.Not to much to ask in IMHO.

NoVA Shooter
July 24, 2014, 11:48 PM
I see, so get rid of all requirements for drivers education? Because it doesn't prevent all accidents it has no value?

Funny, I see that strawman argument used by antis all the time...

The point of the comparison was to demonstrate that your concerns regarding cc will not be alleviated by training, education, or testing. You seem to think there's a slew of NDs because people don't know how to use a gun instead of realizing that most NDs occur because of carelessness.

Let's also not forget that driving is a privileged, not a right.
Nobody ever suggests that we need adequate training, education, and testing to exercise our first amendment rights. Before you make the typical counter argument that freedom of speech isn't a deadly weapon, just remember that words have been used to incite suicide, murder, rebellion, terrorism, war, and tyranny.



Heck, meds are rarely 100% effecitve, guess we shouldnt take them? Seat belts aren't either...no point, then? All or nothing arguments are not realistic.

Neither are "if it just saves one life..." arguments.

NoVA Shooter
July 25, 2014, 12:05 AM
If I owned a gun shop, I would not like to have another person with a loaded firearm in my shop.

Yet you'd sell that same person a gun. This is where I think a bit of hypocrisy comes in when gun stores ban CC.

As I've said before, if you're bringing in a gun that you intend to handle, keep it unloaded. I have no problem with a store enforcing that policy. But a carry gun that you have no intention of handling? Unless there are legal/insurance issues at play, I just don't get it.

Pit4Brains
July 25, 2014, 12:15 AM
True. Buy a firearm at sportsman's warehouse or bass pro shop. It goes in the box, and a sales associate walks you to the door. i'm not sure about their policies about bringing one in as far as checking with customer service, etc., but they will be unloaded. I cannot say for sure about their ccw policies though. This is AZ and we are very liberal about carrying firearms outside of Target and coffee shops.
I think the "gun stores" just don't need armed people of any intent that close to their merchandise.

herrwalther
July 25, 2014, 01:19 AM
I conceal carry at gun stores and gun shows. Namely because concealed is concealed, signs don't carry the rule of law in my state, and I am not a yahoo who pulls my weapon unless a VERY good reason presents itself ie active shooter. There has only been ONE store where a "no guns" sign meant a concealed weapon, and I don't go there anymore. Every other store the sign means guns to sell, have the smith work on etc. I asked my favorite gun store how they felt about concealed carry on the property and was told "As long as it stays in the holster, it doesn't exist." Easy to see why it is my favorite store.

Evergreen
July 25, 2014, 02:22 AM
I don't support gun ranges or gun shops that forbid conceal carry. The way I think of it is if they cannot trust people with guns in their shops, they shouldn't trust the same people carrying a gun in crowded stores or shopping malls with children and other people present.. Also, considering a person will be handling a loaded weapon near me, if he cannot be trusted with a gun in the range, why should he be trusted handling a weapon sitting next to me? I want anybody I am shooting next to, to respect the rules of gun safety everywhere they go. If they won't respect the rules in the club house, why would they respect them on the range while people are walking up and gathering their targets with their backs turned?

If they are afraid of people pulling their loaded weapon on them, they can have a large sign telling people to leave their weapons holstered. Many guns store, including larger ones like Cabelas and Wholesale Sports all have these signs and most law abiding gun owners respect and understand these signs.

As far as gun shows are concerned, I can respect them possibly requiring people to not allow loaded guns there, assuming there is adequate armed security. If there is not adequate armed security, I will not attend a gun show that forbids me to conceal carry. Yes, a place with so many guns being handled in the open I can understand why people would be worried about people bringing loaded guns in, especially as some people will try to barter the guns at the show. However, I think a person is as vulnerable of being attacked at a gun show , let's say they are walking to their car with $1000s of guns. If thieves know that everyone at the show is disarmed, what a great opportunity it could be? Some gun shows have dark parking lots with inadequate security.

razorback2003
July 25, 2014, 02:33 AM
I have a license and carry a handgun concealed at gun shows, gun stores, and ranges. The gun that I am carrying concealed is not a gun I would be swapping say at a gun show. If I decided I wanted to sell or trade that gun, I would go outside and unload and bring it in to get the zip tie that a lot of the shows do to keep the action open. This is just the common sense way to approach it.

Praxidike
July 25, 2014, 02:36 AM
I don't support gun ranges or gun shops that forbid conceal carry. The way I think of it is if they cannot trust people with guns in their shops, they shouldn't trust the same people carrying a gun in crowded stores or shopping malls with children and other people present.. Also, considering a person will be handling a loaded weapon near me, if he cannot be trusted with a gun in the range, why should he be trusted handling a weapon sitting next to me? I want anybody I am shooting next to, to respect the rules of gun safety everywhere they go. If they won't respect the rules in the club house, why would they respect them on the range while people are walking up and gathering their targets with their backs turned?

If they are afraid of people pulling their loaded weapon on them, they can have a large sign telling people to leave their weapons holstered. Many guns store, including larger ones like Cabelas and Wholesale Sports all have these signs and most law abiding gun owners respect and understand these signs.

As far as gun shows are concerned, I can respect them possibly requiring people to not allow loaded guns there, assuming there is adequate armed security. If there is not adequate armed security, I will not attend a gun show that forbids me to conceal carry. Yes, a place with so many guns being handled in the open I can understand why people would be worried about people bringing loaded guns in, especially as some people will try to barter the guns at the show. However, I think a person is as vulnerable of being attacked at a gun show , let's say they are walking to their car with $1000s of guns. If thieves know that everyone at the show is disarmed, what a great opportunity it could be? Some gun shows have dark parking lots with inadequate security.

I heard about this story (http://www.philly.com/philly/news/Cops-Gunman-shoots-clerk-steals-6-firearms-in-Northeast-gun-shop-robbery.html) last month which is another reason why this topic popped up in my head.

My LGS is also a shooting range. I'm always a little paranoid about walking to and from my car carrying $1000-$2000 worth of firearms on me. I always felt safe while in the LGS's parking lot, but always looked in my rear view on the way home to make sure I wasn't being followed (Seen people who brought expensive items & were followed home and robbed many times on a TV show called "The First 48 (http://www.aetv.com/the-first-48)"). I used to feel safe believing that no one would be stupid enough to rob someone at or near a shooting range, but after hearing about that story, I just do not feel comfortable not having a loaded weapon on me.

razorback2003
July 25, 2014, 02:53 AM
Just conceal a handgun that you are not going to shoot at that range and bring your handguns you are going to shoot unloaded in a case or range bag. That is the way I handle that issue.

Praxidike
July 25, 2014, 03:06 AM
Just conceal a handgun that you are not going to shoot at that range and bring your handguns you are going to shoot unloaded in a case or range bag. That is the way I handle that issue.
That's exactly what I do now.

lxd55
July 25, 2014, 03:10 AM
sure is a lot of you grabbing yourselves and saying I will do what I want to do in this thread. then again, just a couple of weeks ago, beating the hell out of the OC group
and saying they are hurting our cause. interesting.

Praxidike
July 25, 2014, 03:17 AM
sure is a lot of you grabbing yourselves and saying I will do what I want to do in this thread. then again, just a couple of weeks ago, beating the hell out of the OC group
and saying they are hurting our cause. interesting.
Open carrying an "assault" riffle into a businesses in the middle of town scaring customers (who aren't use to being around guns) away and purposely wasting L.E.'s time is not the same as conceal carrying a holstered handgun in a gun shop filled with people who like guns... Apples and oranges...

xjsnake
July 25, 2014, 03:26 AM
Just conceal a handgun that you are not going to shoot at that range and bring your handguns you are going to shoot unloaded in a case or range bag. That is the way I handle that issue.
That's what I do too. I may shoot my carry gun at the range but I also have a magazine loaded for it to go back in the gun for the ride home.

Theohazard
July 25, 2014, 03:29 AM
sure is a lot of you grabbing yourselves and saying I will do what I want to do in this thread. then again, just a couple of weeks ago, beating the hell out of the OC group
and saying they are hurting our cause. interesting.
Wow. Are you serious? Can you not see the difference between the two? The difference is huge.

Like Praxidike said, there's world of difference between concealed carry and blatant, in-your-face open carry of scary-looking long guns in private businesses where people aren't used to seeing guns. One scares the public and drives middle-of-the-road people against gun owners (which causes us to lose gun rights), and the other doesn't hurt anyone because no one notices.

scaatylobo
July 25, 2014, 10:07 AM
IF any do not comprehend why I feel the 'need' to be armed at all times,that is just fine by me.

Not understanding that an attack can [ and does ! ] happen ANYTIME & ANYWHERE is the reason I am the one responsible for my safety and that of my family.

A gun shop = YES they do get held up

A gun show = yes there are those that might see a place full of guns as a great place to steal / rob.

Malls and schools = need you really ask ?.

IF calling 9/11 is the only option ,then your facing a possible loss of life and all that entails = IF you are not able [ yes and TRAINED ] to take control of that situation.

I actually train for MY worst case scenario,any who CCW should do the same.

Zach S
July 25, 2014, 10:56 AM
sure is a lot of you grabbing yourselves and saying I will do what I want to do in this thread. then again, just a couple of weeks ago, beating the hell out of the OC group
and saying they are hurting our cause. interesting.

Yes, I CC in a gun shop that has the "no loaded firearms" sign. The pistol stays concealed and isn't handled at all...

We aren't parading around department stores or posing for pics with AR15s.

Apples and oranges.

Madcap_Magician
July 25, 2014, 11:09 AM
The reason no loaded guns are allowed in gun shows is the exact same reason most gun classes will not allow loaded guns in the classroom until you get to the range and why you're not supposed to even have ammo in the same room if you're doing dry-fire practice.

Because all three are places where people handle firearms. It's one thing to have a gun on your hip in Target, where you are not going to handle any guns sans pressing need, it's another thing to have loaded guns in play when thousands of people are looking down the sights, cycling the actions, and pulling the triggers on thousands of guns, and a significant minority of those people are apparently unaware of basic gun safety rules when doing so.

However, I've never seen a gun show with a metal detector. So my solution has always been to never take out a loaded gun, and never bring ammunition for guns I intend to show, sell, or trade.

RetiredUSNChief
July 25, 2014, 12:42 PM
The reason no loaded guns are allowed in gun shows is the exact same reason most gun classes will not allow loaded guns in the classroom until you get to the range and why you're not supposed to even have ammo in the same room if you're doing dry-fire practice.

Actually...I'm betting it's more because of local politics and insurance reasons than anything else.

Setting up a gun show costs money...having to pay more money for insurance means having to charge more money somewhere along the line in order to cover expenses.

Orion8472
July 25, 2014, 01:15 PM
I suppose a legitimate question [then] would be, . . . "At gunshows that have a posted "no loaded guns" sign, . . . do you still conceal carry?"

RetiredUSNChief
July 25, 2014, 01:24 PM
I suppose a legitimate question [then] would be, . . . "At gunshows that have a posted "no loaded guns" sign, . . . do you still conceal carry?"

Good question.

My answer is "no, I do not conceal carry against the rules of the gun shows, even in states where such postings do not carry the force of law".

If I feel that strongly about the rule, then I don't go. Simple as that.

Whether I like such rules or not, private organizations have the right to decide such matters. I find it personally distasteful and disrespectful to go against their choice because I respect THEIR RIGHT in this matter...no matter my feelings.

Onward Allusion
July 25, 2014, 02:14 PM
Theohazard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onward Allusion
Holy crap! I just went through 3 pages of this thread and can't believe that most of you guys sound exactly like the anti's who do not want loaded guns in their establishments? A lot of y'all are trying to rationalize it with the "dumb gun owner" bit, but isn't that exactly what the anti's also claim? Dumb gun owners who are not responsible enough to:<SNIP>

Your argument is fundamentally flawed: Nobody is arguing that the prohibition of loaded guns in guns shows should be banned by law. These are private events, and therefore the owners and organizers should have the right to decide what happens inside their doors. But the antis want to pass laws banning people from carrying in those places you listed, and that's the fundamental difference.

I have no problem if a gun show or gun shop (or any other private establishment) wants to make their own rules; they should be completely free to do so. And I had enough loaded guns pointed at me while working at a gun shop that I think it's probably a good idea from a safety standpoint. And anyone who thinks that makes me the same as the antis simply isn't thinking this through.



I would have to disagree that my logic is "fundementally flawed". No one is outright saying that they are FOR laws prohibiting guns from certain places. Also, guns being banned from private property IS LAW depending on the State Some States afford those signs prohibiting firearms the weight of losing one's right to CC permanently.

However, the overwhelming majority of people in this forum will say that they will not patronize (or at the very least voice their displeasure) a business if that business banned CC guns from their property. These are the same people who will claim that the business is anti or have succumbed to the pressures of the gun control crowd.

Yet these are the same individuals who claim that loaded firearms at a gun show is somehow more dangerous than carrying a loaded gun anywhere else? Why is that? Is it because they think that most people (aside from themselves?) are too stupid to safely carry a loaded firearm concealed when there are other guns around? Somehow when they see other guns, these "stupid" gun owners lose all senses, will whip theirs out and start blasting away? If that were truly the case, we would read, see, & hear about a heck of a lot more than the HANDFUL OF STORIES that get posted here in this forum every year. Trust me, the media would have a freakin' field day with these types of stories.

Is it hypocritical for gun owners who espouse gun rights, 2nd rights, CC rights, gun ownership, gun training...etc. but say that loaded guns at a gun show is dangerous? You bet it is hypocritical. It is hypocritical of PRIVATE GUN CLUBS to forbid loaded CC weapons on their property. It is hypocritical for PRIVATE GUN SHOPS/BUSINESSES to ban CC weapons on their property.

DO ALL THESE PRIVATE ENTITIES HAVE THE RIGHT. You bet! IS IT HYPOCRITICAL? DARN STRAIGHT IT IS.

Theohazard
July 25, 2014, 03:00 PM
Onward Allusion, I'm going to re-post what I wrote in post number 75:

"And there is also a fundamental difference between, say, Target and an LGS. When was the last time you saw someone point a gun at someone when you were at Target? It probably doesn't happen very often, so there's much less of a need for Target to make rules regarding guns. But at an LGS, range, or gun show, that happens all the time. I had guns -- loaded and not -- pointed at me all the time at the LGS where I worked. People loved to pull out their carry gun for you to look at it. One time someone pulled out a loaded Glock and pointed it at an employee's face so he could show him the broken flashlight that was attached to it. And his finger was on the trigger."

Almost every single gun shop, range, or gun show has had negligent discharges on their premises. The shop where I worked did allow people to carry holstered handguns, but any other guns had to be unloaded in a case. All gun handling had to be done at the counter under employee supervision. Were those rules hypocritical? No, those rules were there because we had safety issues with bad gun handling and even some negligent discharges. So those rules were simply put in place for common sense safety reasons.

Now, if Target (or any other non-gun-related store) had the same kinds of issues and enacted policies to combat them, then that makes sense too. In fact, Starbucks and Chipotle had a problem with groups of morons carrying long guns in their stores and posing for pictures with them, which hurt their business. So their new policies aim to prevent that, which is totally fine with me.

The difference is if those stores enact their gun policies to actually prevent an occurring problem, or if they enact them for political reasons. And either way, it's the stores' right to do so.

Madcap_Magician
July 25, 2014, 05:56 PM
Actually...I'm betting it's more because of local politics and insurance reasons than anything else.

Sure, but a distinction without a difference, because if there is local political opposition or higher insurance premiums, it is because local politicians and insurers think the risk for an accident is higher... because people are handling guns.

lxd55
July 26, 2014, 01:31 AM
Wow. Are you serious? Can you not see the difference between the two? The difference is huge.

Like Praxidike said, there's world of difference between concealed carry and blatant, in-your-face open carry of scary-looking long guns in private businesses where people aren't used to seeing guns. One scares the public and drives middle-of-the-road people against gun owners (which causes us to lose gun rights), and the other doesn't hurt anyone because no one notices.
yes I understand the difference in all of it. legal is legal and if you are asked not to carry your cc firearm and you do? it is not apples and oranges, it is choices.
divide and suppress/conquer. I admit I am new here but I am by no means a
stranger to how the world works. as of the open carry not all of it has to do with rifles
as was mentioned in the thread.

razorback2003
July 26, 2014, 01:48 AM
If you have a license and are legally concealing a handgun that you are not selling at a show or store, what is the problem? Keep your gun on you and covered up. Don't remove it from the holster. A sign that says "no loaded guns" does not apply to me as a licensee.

The gun shows, gun stores, and ranges know that 90% of the public, including gun owners, do not actually carry in public. So the few that do are discreetly carrying concealed. Discreetly concealed means that no one knows. It also means you have enough common sense to avoid being found out for carrying.

A lot of policies are meant for the people with no common sense who have fingers on triggers, by accident point guns at folks, and rarely if ever fire a gun. Those people don't know how to be safe, discreet, and conceal. Most of the gun owning public does not carry on a license in public.

I pay the money for a license and will continue to legally carry at those places. There is no comparison between safe and discreet carry VS open carrying a long gun with one in the chamber and a full magazine in a non gun related store.

Theohazard
July 26, 2014, 04:03 AM
yes I understand the difference in all of it.
If you truly understand the difference, then you must realize how ridiculous your post (post #107) was. Carrying a concealed weapon against an establishment's request is completely different from staging an in-your-face open carry rally inside a restaurant or coffee shop.

RetiredUSNChief
July 26, 2014, 07:44 AM
Sure, but a distinction without a difference, because if there is local political opposition or higher insurance premiums, it is because local politicians and insurers think the risk for an accident is higher... because people are handling guns.

Well...I don't think it's "a distinction without a difference". In one, the decision is heavily based on outside influences (political or fiscal). In the other, the decision is based solely on those who plan and organize the events (they would have made this decision even if local politics or insurance costs weren't a factor).

Intent is everything.

CLP
July 26, 2014, 02:01 PM
Oughtn't it be 49% ?

CLP
July 26, 2014, 02:02 PM
Remember that 50% of the people you meet are below average....

Guns and the sum of all those averages concentrated in large numbers? Uhh..... <sigh>...


Willie

.
49%...

mac66
July 26, 2014, 07:54 PM
Since I can't read I ignore signs. Concealed carry is concealed.

AKElroy
July 26, 2014, 08:12 PM
The arguments I find most compelling are the ones referencing the frequency that guns are handled at gun shows and the LGS. As a Range Master for a buddies CHL course, NO ONE handles a gun behind a line when it is hot. I have made a few folks angry when enforcing this basic rule, with the same comment made every time. "What's the big deal? It's not even loaded". Of course it isn't. No ND's ever occur with a loaded gun.

If I ran a gun show or store, these rules would be the same. No loaded weapons. Too many hands, too many dry-fires, too many actors to watch. Since I cannot control the variables like I can on the line, patrons will be unarmed when handling weapons in my shop( if I had one). If folks don't like the rules, that's OK. They can take a class or buy from someone else.

AKElroy
July 26, 2014, 08:15 PM
As a follow-up to my last post, I do not find any hypocrisy in this argument. I carry concealed every day. I hope others do as well, and I hope their weapons are loaded, and I hope they are prepared and capable to employ them if needed. That said, if one of them were to take out their weapon and start handling it in public, aiming, working the action, dry firing, etc..., I would hope, and in fact require, that they unload the weapon in my presence.

AZ Desertrat
July 26, 2014, 09:30 PM
As much as I dislike those kinds of regs and rules...I believe there is a good reason for it. Hypocritical? yes....but then, I don't want to get "shot at a gunshow" anymore than the next guy.

Sam1911
July 26, 2014, 09:49 PM
As another poster likes to point out, nuance is important.

We SHOULD carry a loaded, ready, weapon at all times. There SHOULD be NO prohibitions against that.

But there are mitigating circumstances under which we all recognize that our need to be armed should be set aside momentarily for some reason. Maybe I'm getting an MRI scan? Maybe I'm swimming in the ocean? Maybe I'm visiting a courtroom or prison? We'd all say, "well sure, ok, not carrying then."

A gun show or gun range asking you to not have (openly carried ;)) loaded weapons in that weapons-handling environment is simply another minor nuance. They aren't infringing your rights, aren't being hypocritical, just making a proactive step to ensure we all are protected by "layers of safety" -- even when some of those layers are difficult to maintain due to the special circumstances.

coloradokevin
July 26, 2014, 10:05 PM
The reason no loaded guns are allowed in gun shows is the exact same reason most gun classes will not allow loaded guns in the classroom until you get to the range and why you're not supposed to even have ammo in the same room if you're doing dry-fire practice.

Because all three are places where people handle firearms. It's one thing to have a gun on your hip in Target, where you are not going to handle any guns sans pressing need, it's another thing to have loaded guns in play when thousands of people are looking down the sights, cycling the actions, and pulling the triggers on thousands of guns, and a significant minority of those people are apparently unaware of basic gun safety rules when doing so.

However, I've never seen a gun show with a metal detector. So my solution has always been to never take out a loaded gun, and never bring ammunition for guns I intend to show, sell, or trade.

I agree completely, as I stated in my previous post. Whenever you are putting a bunch of unknown people in a room with the express intention of having them handle, trade, sell, and buy guns it's a really good idea to take some steps to make sure that the guns are not loaded. As such, the policy usually dictates that someone checks the gun at the door, and zip-ties it to make sure it isn't loaded. That way, when some fool walks in with a loaded .30-06 that he's looking to sell, and hands it to a novice who is looking to buy their first gun, and tells that "hey, it ain't loaded", and the novice who doesn't know to check the chamber pulls the trigger, no one ends up getting accidentally shot. It's reality, and it has happened in the past.

Should people be better about handling guns more safely? Absolutely! But, we have the same unloaded/no ammo requirements on our police range during certain training scenarios, because when you put enough people together in such an environment, enough times, eventually someone is going to make a mistake.

It's totally different when we're on the street with our guns, or carrying CCW on our time off. We don't expect that we'll handle our guns in that situation, unless needed for the preservation of life. In a training / gun show environment we are planning to handle our guns, which raises the risk of accident.

I often talk guns with friends and relatives, and people I know will often ask to take a look at one of my rifles/handguns when they're at my house. If we're going to be handling the gun for "show and tell" time it always gets unloaded first (by me), and brought into the room without the ammo.

Anyway, like you I've found that the easiest thing to do at a gun show is continue to wear my CCW piece, and make sure that no one knows it's there… I also don't touch it during the event, and it doesn't leave its holster for any reason (the need for self defense not withstanding).

shafter
July 27, 2014, 03:37 PM
I do believe it is hypocritical. If gun stores/shows can't expect people to behave safely then why should anyone else?

Theohazard
July 27, 2014, 03:46 PM
If gun stores/shows can't expect people to behave safely then why should anyone else?
You've obviously never worked in a gun store.

AKElroy
July 27, 2014, 05:20 PM
You've obviously never worked in a gun store

I haven't, but I can sure think up scenarios that could result in tragedy. How's this: customer walks into LGS, asks to see a gun that he decides he must have. He can't afford it,so he wants to talk trade for his EDC, which he proceeds to pull out of his pocket. The clerk, distracted by other customers, reaches for the loaded EDC, sets it on the counter until he finishes up with a customer. A third customer, curious about the gun on the counter and assuming it is for sale, picks up the weapon and gives the trigger a try. Bang.

If you have never been to a large gun show, it might be difficult to imagine this happening. I've been to dozens, I'm shocked it doesn't happen more often, even with the rules. Dozens of people at every table, handling guns, with the worst possible gun manners. Loaded EDC's in a trade-heavy environment? No thanks. Not looking for legislation on this, folks. Just good common sense.

I do believe it is hypocritical. If gun stores/shows can't expect people to behave safely then why should anyone else?

I believe if I witnessed someone in any setting where they were HANDLING firearms, I would either insist they show me they are unloaded, or me and mine would be leaving the area. I have done this, and will continue to. I recently had the 16 year-old kid of one of our hunters carrying his AR in a sling, index finger at ready-1 as if we faced imminent invasion, muzzle brushing everyone as he walked about. I asked him to clear the weapon or put it away. His dad interceded and told him to put it away.

Common sense needs to prevail here. Again, I would oppose legislating any of this, but rules and safety go hand in hand.

X-Rap
July 27, 2014, 05:43 PM
Not looking for legislation on this, folks. Just good common sense.

I think that sums it up nicely. Why are people protesting the self regulation of the industry with out the heavy hand of government?

Aside from a few examples I haven't seen or heard of an instance in which concealed or open carry has been prohibited in a GS, it's the unwarranted removal of said gun that is forbidden as it should be.

The gunshow is much the same, I cc at every show I visit or partake in. It never comes out and so long as prohibition doesn't carry the force of law that's how I will continue.

As for range and comp. Again there are many guns in action and just as many being cleaned, repaired, and inspected at any given time that allowing for loaded (non cc) guns to be carried by spectators or participants not actively competing is a recipe for disaster.

Theohazard
July 27, 2014, 05:50 PM
Not looking for legislation on this, folks. Just good common sense.
This hits the nail on the head. Some folks are saying we're being hypocritical because we're being just like the antis, and those people are just plain wrong. The antis' goal is for more anti-gun legislation, but who here is talking about legislation? No, we're simply saying that a private company should be able to make rules to improve safety and/or minimize liability inside their establishment. And if you don't like those rules, then go somewhere else.

Willie Sutton
July 27, 2014, 05:53 PM
"If gun stores/shows can't expect people to behave safely then why should anyone else?"



You haven't looked at the folks to the right or left of you at the gunshop lately, have you? Try it, it usually makes the patrons at Walmart seem like rocket scientists.

Trust me... I don't want to be anywhere near many of them if they have a loaded gun.



Willie

.

Stevie-Ray
July 27, 2014, 06:05 PM
In our previous area, the norm was inspect, unload and zip-tie the carry guns at a gun show, and signs in local gun shops demanding cased unloaded firearms with the caveat, licensed CCWs always welcome. Now, the gun shops are the same, but the gun shows have no inspections. Same state-more rural area.

Sam1911
July 27, 2014, 06:10 PM
In all gun activities we preach the idea of having LAYERS OF SAFETY.

Cooper's Four Rules are really just a simple way of expressing the most universal of those layers:

1) Treat all guns as always loaded.
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3) Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.
4) Identify your target, and what is behind it.

We know that when we are plinking at the range, or carrying our guns with us throughout our day, or hunting, etc., those four rules provide four layers of safety that overlap to protect us and others. Any one of them could keep us from a terrible accident but if we're trying to practice all four -- no matter how things go haywire -- there should be at least two or three layers in place keeping us from a dire WHOOPS.

There are times, however, when several of THOSE four rules get pretty badly bent. Like, for instance, when cleaning a gun, or when dryfiring, or when handling a gun at a safe area during a match, or ...

... Or when at a gun show (or shop).

During those times you're handling the guns, manipulating them to check or test the action, pointing them at things you are NOT willing to destroy (if only the clock on the wall, or "CRAP, why'd that guy just walk in front of my muzzle? Didn't he see me shouldering this rifle over here?"), pulling the trigger to check the action job or in dryfire practice, pointing at things you really haven't checked as a target nor verified what might be behind it that you MUST not shoot, cleaning that Model 94 from the muzzle end or getting your hands in front of the muzzle of your 1911 when putting the bushing back in... And so forth.

Fortunately, Cooper's rules are not the ONLY rules that we can use to layer up the safety. We can also use special circumstance rules like NO AMMO/NO LOADED WEAPONS to create an alternate layer of safety to cover us when the original four are hard or impossible to perfectly maintain.

And if we could stop to recognize that, we wouldn't hear the inane calls of "hypocrisy" and nonsensical ramblings about "if they can't trust us in a gun show, why should they trust us walking down the street with a holstered gun?"

We sound a bit like someone who claims to always tell the truth. Without understanding nuance and practicing situational discretion, that well-intentioned fool is not likely to remain married -- OR employed! -- for very long. :scrutiny: :rolleyes: :D

RetiredUSNChief
July 27, 2014, 08:04 PM
I haven't, but I can sure think up scenarios that could result in tragedy.

Therein lies the problem...everybody can think up scenarios that could result in tragedy, no matter WHAT the circumstances.

Private business owners deal with such issues however THEY choose to deal with them. It is not our place to gainsay them in their own businesses. Just as it's not anybody else's place to gainsay OUR decisions in matters of our own businesses or homes.

In the context of a gun shop, how the owners decide to mitigate the potential risks involved with handling firearms is THEIR business. And like most everything else in life, you'll see a broad spectrum of different ways of handling such risks. I've been in gun shops where they had signs intentionally welcoming those who carried legally. I've been in gun shops where it was quite plainly posted with "no concealed weapons" signs. And I've been in gun shops where nothing at all was said on the matter.

As one of the moderators on THR has been known to post, "Is gun. Gun not safe." If, knowing and understanding this, a gun shop owner chooses NOT to allow other people to carry loaded weapons in his store as part of his risk mitigation plan in a store chock full of dangerous weapons which will be handled, then who are we to gainsay that? We have the choice to patronize his business or not as we each see fit.

Besides...unlike schools and other places of business in which guns are off limits, the one thing I've NEVER seen is a gun shop without armed employees at the ready. "Gun free zone" does NOT describe any gun shop I've ever been in.

john wall
July 27, 2014, 09:16 PM
"You would probably be amazed at the number of folks who think its okay to show off their carry gun because they're in a gun store."

I have worked in gun shops, clubs, and ranges since 1967. Most folks posting here don't have a clue what they are talking about.

I can't tell you how many folks have chirped "I KNOW what I'm doing", right after they pointed a firearm at me.

As an employee, I have the right to expect a safe workplace, even at a gun range. After all these years, I still love the gun culture, and being around folks with guns.

Remember the 49%. Make sure you don't act like them.

At our shop a while back, a uniformed LEO repeatedly drew his carry arm and pointed it at an employee. Several other employees told him if he did it again, they would point their guns at HIM. Needless to say, he left in a rage.

Idiots can't keep their carry gun in their pants. They HAVE to play show and tell like a 12 year old.

Hang around a busy gun shop or range, and be educated. While on the job, I once had to forcibly disarm a fool who repeatedly pointed his handgun at me.

If I had not been at contact distance, I can't say I would not have shot him.

"Draw your gun, go to jail" is a good idea, even at a gun shop.

If you are going to sell, trade, buy goodies for, or have your firearm repaired, PLEASE bring it in empty and cased.

SlamFire1
July 27, 2014, 11:22 PM
It does not take much searching to find web accounts of accidental discharges at Gun Shows.

My city used to have big gun shows at the Civic Center. More than ten years ago a guy bought an 9mm semi auto at the gun show with ammunition and magazines. When he left the arena, but was on the walk way inside the Civic Center, he loaded a magazine, put it into the pistol, and then cut the cable tie. Somehow the interaction of the cable tie with the trigger was enough to cause a discharge, which went through the purchaser’s lower spine. He now is paralyzed from the waist down. This occurred in full public view and was enough of a scandal that this large “public” space has not been available for a gun show for a decade or two.

RetiredUSNChief
July 28, 2014, 12:57 AM
If you are going to sell, trade, buy goodies for, or have your firearm repaired, PLEASE bring it in empty and cased.

Darned good advice.

A carry gun is a carry gun. Its purpose is to be on one's person and available for use in an emergency, not for any other reason. Pulling it out of one's holster for any other reason should be avoided, if at all possible, and minimized if not possible.

rszwieg
July 28, 2014, 01:54 PM
I was at a gunshow this weekend and it is annually held at a hall with "No firearms or dangerous weapons allowed" signs on the doors...

herrwalther
July 28, 2014, 04:01 PM
If you are going to sell, trade, buy goodies for, or have your firearm repaired, PLEASE bring it in empty and cased.

That is what I do. If I am selling a firearm I bring it in the case it came with (if it did) otherwise I bring it in one of my own. In addition I use whatever "I swear I am not loaded" plugs or doohickies I have to put the gun shop at ease a little bit. I know they are going to check it anyway but I like doing my little part to make someone's job easier.

kwguy
July 29, 2014, 12:33 AM
One local range doesn't mind ccw, but it has to remain in a ccw status while there and you shoot whatever else you have. If you wanna shoot the ccw, just clear it prior to entry and put it in the range bag or whatever.

Another local range doesn't mind if you practice drawing there. Once they know you, and realize that you are not a knucklehead, they don't mind. They just ask that the other lanes be clear of other people.

It really comes down to minimizing the risk that occurs from a lot of people handling loaded weapons in a small space. Accidents do happen, and ND's happen when handling weapons. I'f a lot of people are doing this in a 'small space', then the risk goes up. Rules like this are simply meant to minimize that risk.

Zach S
July 29, 2014, 09:03 PM
John Wall, '67 huh? How do you keep your blood pressure down? My time behind the counter and pacing behind the firing line is limited - and while I dont mind helping out, I prefer to keep it that way.

I think a lot of you need to work in a gun store for about a month. You'll understand why places are charging $50 for transfers, the clerks check the gun then hand it to you with the action closed, and eventually, if there isnt a dreaded sign, the sound of a live round hitting the floor, right after the sound of a slide racking will get old. Not to mention the occasional round getting ejected from the "unloaded" gun being brought in for work. You will have a counterstory from the selling side of the counter for over half of the gun store complaints you read here.

You want nerve racking? Wait till you hear someone say "it didnt go off" and start to turn around to ask the acting RSO (you) for help, gun in hand, and have it fire twice (once for the hangfire, again with the flinch).

Most of us know better than to show up expecting our transfer because tracking said it was delivered 20 min ago. We know that slamming slides and hollywood flips are bad ideas, carry guns aren't for show and tell, and to unload our guns before putting them in the case. Not to mention the click where there should be a bang. I heard about one guy who brought his gun back into the storek thankfully it was a dud, not a hangfire, and I wasn't there.

At the end of the day, we're not remembered - the other ones are. Rip them for the sign, there is probably a story behind it, ask the owner. It may involve a Spyderco and WileyX display getting shot by one of the "I know what I'm doing/its unloaded/check out my carry gun" crowd.

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