What can I use to strengthen a syn. 700 stock


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gamestalker
July 28, 2014, 04:31 PM
I have two 700's that have that weak slender synthetic stock. I don't want to change stocks because I like the shape, feel and look of the original stock. But because those stocks are so weak, they can't be free floated, just way too much flex and obvious vibration. And the original pressure bedded design Remington employs simply limits the achievable accuracy potential.

So what I would like to try, and have heard of working, is to fill the void with something that is rigid. These stocks are pretty much hollow, so there is a large void to be filled. I have heard that fiber glass doesn't work because it won't adhere to the material the stock is made of. But I question that analogy because glass is often used for bedding all types of stocks, isn't it? I have bedded actions on other synthetic and wood stocks with JB Weld, with excellent long lasting results. But it would take a boat load of that to fill one of these hollow fore end stocks, but it would add lot of unwanted weight too.

I've also considered putting two carbon arrow shafts in to torsion it. Maybe fill these shafts with something to make them a bit more rigid. I can easily use the threaded insert to adjust the amount of torsion. Then to decrease the amount of harmonic distortion, I thought of coating the inside with some truck bed liner material to deaden it.

Does anyone have a suggestion, or a product that would do the trick? I once attached a small braided cable to the front sling swivel and then hung a 5 lb. bag of lead shot off the front of the bench to keep the stock from touching the barrel, and to prevent vibration. The result was consistent 1/2" groups, so I know something can be done to improve them.

GS

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rcmodel
July 28, 2014, 04:48 PM
Carbon fiber arrow shafts work nicely.
They don't need to be filled to be very ridged.
If you have room, a bundle of three would be almost like a steel beam!

They would need to project past the recoil lug area to stop it flexing there.

As for what to bed them with, I can't say as I have never done anything on a Rem Syn stock.

Normally, I would bed them in Acraglas.

But you might want to do a small test spot with normal epoxy first, and see if it will stick to it.

If it will, Acraglas would be my choice.
If it won't, it's Tupperware of some sort, and you are pretty much SOL.

rc

Stony
July 28, 2014, 06:02 PM
I haven't tried it on that particular stock, but I have done similar things to a Ram Line and it did well. I used the large packing Styrofoam peanuts and the old Micro Bed to do it and it's still working well years later. The arrow thing sounds interesting too and I don't know why it wouldn't work. Brownells sells a kind of bedding compound similar to Micro Bed, just slightly runnier out of the tubes.

Kp321
July 29, 2014, 11:04 AM
The arrows are a very good idea. I have used small steel tubing but arrows would be lighter. To make the epoxy adhere to the stock material, take a coarse Dremel cutter and cut channels in all the surfaces the epoxy will contact. Don't clean the cuts, the rougher the better. Be careful not to cut too deep, the stock is thin in some areas (don't ask me how I know this). This will give the epoxy something to bond to. Just about any epoxy will work, I use Acraglas, JB, or Devcon.

gamestalker
July 29, 2014, 05:10 PM
RC, so you don't think it's necessary to fill those shafts then? I'm all for simplicity, so I'm going to run with this thing using just empty carbon shafts.

And if I understand you correctly, I need to start at the lug block / barrel ring, where the front action screw is. In other words, where the fore end begins, which actually happens to be the weak point where most of the flex is coming from.

Do you think I need to run them the entire length of the fore end? That's seems to make the most sense, since there is no other solid place to anchor them, right?

Another thought I had was maybe using hardwood dowels? But I think that would possible cause problems down the road, warping in other words.

GS

rcmodel
July 29, 2014, 05:17 PM
Yes, I think you need to run them back past the thin section in front of the recoil lug area, as that is most likely to flex.

I don't think the carbon fiber shafts need to be filled to be real strong.
But you could fill them if you want too.

Try to use a bundle of three if you have enough room.

There would not be much point in running them much past the front sling swivel stud.

Do Not use hardwood dowel.
Even the best of them are nowhere near as stiff a carbon fiber and they will weigh more.

Check here for solid carbon fiber rods.

http://www.cstsales.com/carbon_rods-ss3.html

BTW: Be Very Carful while working with it.
I ran a carbon fiber sliver in my thumb years ago building a R/C aircraft wing spar..
You can't dig it out like a normal splinter, because it keeps snapping off.
It finally worked it's way out above the first knuckle about a year later!

CF slivers are not something you want to get stuck with!



rc

gamestalker
July 29, 2014, 05:28 PM
Just had another thought, scary huh? What about using threaded 1/4" or 3/8 steel studs. That would allow for an easy and a wide range of torsion adjustment. I could secure the studs with washers and nuts at every hollow chamber junction throughout the length of the fore end stock, thus minimizing vibration, and preventing any shifting?

These stocks are a nightmare. I don't want to chance using Acraglass, as I doubt that it will adhere to the material they are made of. My previous attempt with liquid steel and epoxy didn't adhere, so....

If this doesn't work, I'm going to personally take these sticks off and set them on fire so they can never be used again. Only option left will be to buy quality after market stocks for them.

GS

rcmodel
July 29, 2014, 05:31 PM
Mmmmm? :confused:

I don't have an opinion on that! :D

rc

Ex
July 29, 2014, 06:24 PM
A friend in Kentucky wanted to stiffen his and also add a touch of weight. He used a 3/8 piece of rebar, filled around it with expanding foam then carved out enough to epoxy the butt in place.

He did the same thing to a Rossi shotgun that was was to light. In the Rossi case, he did not need stiffness but only weight... he used a couple pounds of lead shot and foamed it in.
Says it made a world of difference in shooting as that light thing no longer beat his shoulder to a pulp.

highorder
July 30, 2014, 09:32 AM
I filled the forearm of a Savage synthetic. I used a burr in a dremel to "tooth" the channel, then brushed on a coat of contact cement as a bonding agent. I laid in two carbon arrow shafts and filled everything with JB Weld. Worked perfectly. Very stiff, almost no deflection, even on a bipod.

A 10oz package cost me $16.99, and I used 90% of it.

201102
201103
201104

4v50 Gary
July 30, 2014, 12:18 PM
The Rem 700 synthetic stocks were actually stronger than some aftermarket. At the armorer's school (at Illion), they told us of placing two stocks on the ground One was Remington made and the other an aftermarket. They ran over both of them. The Remington withstood it and the aftermarket cracked.

If you must fill it, why not Acraglass Gel? Be sure to apply release agent to your metal and to putty up the holes where you don't want the Acraglass to flow. The trade off with solid Acraglass will be weight. That's where the carbon fibre arrow shafts would add to the strength.

chickasaw_hunter
July 30, 2014, 12:34 PM
I had to do some canoe repairs a couple of years ago and many of the commonly available epoxies won't adhere to the poly some boats are made from. West Marine sells an epoxy that will adhere to the poly stuff, it's called G-flex and it comes in a couple of bigger bottles, than you get at the hardware store. I paid about $20 for it. I think that's what I'd use to epoxy in your arrows the barrel channel. Good luck with whatever you decide.

gamestalker
July 31, 2014, 05:53 PM
Ok, so I did the carbon arrow shaft thing. When I finished I was sorely disappointed with the results. In other words, it didn't seem to do much. It seems that nearly all of the flex is coming from the recoil lug recess, so I added 3 cut to fit tight lengths and placed them in the recoil lug recess, as that is the obvious weakest point. This did add some strength, but this stock still flexes quite a bit, though not nearly as much.

It will now support the weight of the barrel and only touches if I push on it. But I'm concerned that it's not going to be rigid enough under recoil to improve accuracy. I'm now considering just bedding the recoil lug recess, and maybe the first 2 voids of the fore end.

My only issue, is I don't know what to use as a release agent with a product like epoxy. But I am certain that if I bed that recoil lug recess, I'll get what I'm looking for. I would also like to remove all contact along the receiver rails and else where as I have with wood stocks, but I'm not certain how this injection molded stock will fare by doing that.

GS

gamestalker
July 31, 2014, 06:16 PM
I guess I could use bee's wax as a release agent? It's worked well on other bedding jobs I've done.

Also, would it better to completely free float the barrel, or, should I bed it in for the first void or two? The first void in front of the recoil lug recess is 1.75", the second one is slightly smaller, like 1-5/8". I just hate not having a completely free floating barrel though, but these IM stocks may not have the integrity to do so with good results.

GS

jmr40
August 1, 2014, 07:41 PM
The Rem 700 synthetic stocks were actually stronger than some aftermarket.

Without naming names I've said for years that most folks who buy the $200-$300 aftermarket stocks are paying for a downgrade. The factory stocks are just fine.

they can't be free floated

Who says. I've floated quite a few. Not just Remington's, and have been able to get excellent accuracy with nothing more than a sheet of sandpaper wrapped around a deep well socket. I've never done anything to stiffen the forend, just a dab of bedding compound in the recoil lug on a few, others left as is. The 3 most accurate rifles I've owned were unmodified from the factory in these cheap stocks.

gamestalker
August 5, 2014, 06:23 AM
JMR40, maybe your referring to a different stock than the one's I've been dealing with, as I have seen some designs that are very rigid and capable of being free floated without this problem. Once I added bedding material to the recoil lug recess, added carbon shafts and bedding material to the voids in the fore end stock, I ended up with a nice stiff stock that was capable of free floating.

Anyway, the project is finished. Not that I'm complaining, but now that I have devised a way to do up grade these stocks, I am now up to my ears with other similar stocks that exhibit the same issue. This is awesome though, I just love making low budget rifle shoot sub moa.

GS

Centurian22
August 5, 2014, 09:29 AM
Well I guess this is a little late but oh well. GS, I had flex and contact issues with my Savage Axis .308 forend. I had read a few different ideas like you're talking about but wasn't confident enough to try anything that permanent. At the same time I was learning about 'corking' Mosin Nagant barrels as with the top handguard its pretty hard to truly 'free float' one of those. Also it was mentioned that with as long and thin as the MN barrel is free floating might not help much. So given that my Axis was a sporter taper barrel I chose to try 'corking' the forend. Took about an inch square piece of cork gasket material, rubbed it with oil to try and prevent it from attracting moisture against my barrel. Loosened the actions screws slid the cork into place and tightened back down. There was plenty of tension to hold it in place even through recoil. After some reloading tweaks I have achieved a 4 shot 3/8" group at 100 yards.

Not sure if I just got lucky or if those pesky ruskies could really have been ahead of their time with a cheap quick easy effective concept for improving accuracy (though I think they used paper / canvas).

Good luck, seems like you're on a war path with the rifle issues lately.

gamestalker
August 5, 2014, 06:31 PM
Centurian22, I have another one of these 700 stocks, (7mm RM) that I initially just tried padding it, similar to what you did with the cork, but I used a foam ear plug just to see if it made a difference. It worked like a champ, and I assume because it stopped the barrel from bouncing off the stock.

But this was obviously just putting a band aid on the problem. So with that rifle, and considering Rem. originally pressure beds them because they aren't stiff enough to free float, I decided to re-pressure bed it, being that their pressure bed was very poorly done, causing it to change as the barrel warmed up. I drilled a small hole on each side where the factory pressure was located, this was to give the epoxy something to adhere to. I then filled the holes with epoxy, and then layered several thin nicely cut to fit gun cleaning patches in the epoxy. I seated the action to the stock, but didn't tighten it down all the way, just enough to align the impression with the barrel. Once the epoxy was dry, I put a piece of very fine grit sand paper between the barrel and bedding, and while slowly increasing the torque on the stock, I pulled the sand paper back and forth until I had just enough pressure to provide even and consistent points of pressure on both sides. It still shoots moa, and that was 4 or 5 yrs. ago, probably 2K rounds later.

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

GS

Elkins45
August 11, 2014, 10:22 PM
My only issue, is I don't know what to use as a release agent with a product like epoxy. Johnson's Paste Wax works beautifully. I've done several rifles using it with epoxy.

Jim K
August 11, 2014, 10:36 PM
I don't know how much improvement it would be, but a friend filled a hollow FAL buttstock with that spray foam insulation. He claims it made the stock stiffer and gave it a more solid feel. FWIW.

Jim

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