Does anyone else EDC a baton?


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Praxidike
August 5, 2014, 05:06 AM
I never heard of a collapsible baton until recently when someone mentioned something about an ASP Baton (I had to Google to find out what it was). After researching it a little, I decided to buy one to compliment my pepper spray as a non lethal self defense alternative.

I came across this amazon Collapsible Baton (http://amzn.com/B00J2NUCPY) on Amazon. It'd very affordable and just about all of the reviews are favorable...

Anyway, do or have any of you EDC a baton, or have you ever witnessed anyone else other that L.E. putting one to use?

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drband
August 5, 2014, 08:15 AM
In many states you need weapons permit to carry one.

HRnightmare
August 5, 2014, 10:24 AM
In many states you need weapons permit to carry one.

I believe FL is one of the states. You can open carry it without a CWP but you need one to conceal it. (don't quote me on that because I haven't followed the rules here in the past 10 years or so since I got my CWP because I carry a gun and typically a knife. I have no interest in carrying a baton.)

Quite frankly I think carrying a baton is unneccesary. If there is a threat that you feel is credible and may cause serious bodily harm or death you pull your firearm or knife. Beating someone up with a baton seems more excessive than drawing a gun. If you don't want to use lethal force than you should not be carrying a gun.

NOW if you are asking because you plan on carrying a baton where you can't legally carry a gun OR you don't have a CWP or your job wont let you carry a gun, etc. than I understand the point of it and its "need".

however I think the stigma of someone pulling a baton out and using it may cause ALOT of negative opinions.


I never heard of a collapsible baton until recently when someone mentioned something about an ASP Baton (I had to Google to find out what it was). After researching it a little, I decided to buy one to compliment my pepper spray as a non lethal self defense alternative.

Again, can you not legally carry a gun? I feel like a gun would mitigate the need for BOTH of these. AND if you carry a gun, pepper spray and now a baton...you either need to re-evaluate were you live / work / play or you likely have a real desire to be a cop. Do you carry handcuffs too?

Sam1911
August 5, 2014, 10:43 AM
Non-lethal is a complete misnomer here. Depending on your training and how you use it, it MAY be "less-lethal."

Striking someone with a baton will be viewed as use of a deadly weapon just as much as a gun or knife would be in most cases. (Whereas pepper spray or a Tazer is not, though their use is still an assault.)

In almost any case where you'd be found justified in using a baton against a human being, you'd have been just as justified in using a firearm.

Further, while carrying a cane or walking stick can be a very useful alternative as it has a clear "primary" purpose that is legally protected in most cases, a collapsible baton does not, is not.

rcmodel
August 5, 2014, 12:08 PM
Againt the law to carry one in Kansas.

rc

hso
August 5, 2014, 12:28 PM
I'll reinforce that a baton is not a "non-lethal" defensive tool any more than a lead pipe is non-lethal. It is a tool that can be used for less lethal defensive use IF you have the knowledge and skill, gained through training and practice, to use it that way. Make a mistake and you can easily kill someone with it.

Carrying a baton is fraught with legal issues. You need to know what your particular state requirements are if you want to avoid breaking the law. You need to understand that if any permanent damage is done to someone with it you may face possible civil action by them or their survivors unless you live in a state that preempts them in clear self defense situations. In my state you must be certified to legally carry a baton and you can't be certified without some minimal training.

The Fury is junk and you should only invest in a quality baton if you decide you can comply with state and local laws and you commit to get the training to use it safely.

There are plenty of alternatives you should consider for defensive impact tools, but they all require some training and practice to provide the skill needed to use them in a crisis.

CWL
August 5, 2014, 12:32 PM
Not that I'd carry one, but if I did carry a collapsible baton, I certainly wouldn't choose Fury. They have earned a reputation for junk products.

Praxidike
August 5, 2014, 01:18 PM
It's legal how me to carry and conceal one in VA.

As an off-the-cuff example, if an assailant has someone in a choke hold, I'd like to have, at my digression and when common sense dictates, the option to use pepper spray and/or a single strike to the leg or arm. I'm not talking about continuously hitting and/or beating someone over the head with it.

Also, the picture of the Fury is in the Amazon ad, but if you read the reviews, that's not the baton that is being delivered. Everyone is saying, to their surprise, that they are receiving a high quality baton that is comparable to batons that or 3x the price.

Sam1911
August 5, 2014, 01:24 PM
One strike or 30 would not change whether this is considered a deadly weapon or not.

Having alternative weapons is not a bad idea, to some degree, but you'd need exactly the same justification for striking someone with that baton as you'd need for any other physical attack on them that might kill them.

Sam1911
August 5, 2014, 01:25 PM
FWIW, there are instances where batons are used as less-lethal devices, but the training in so doing is vital and documentation of that training can be important to have.

You bought a baton off Amazon and used it on someone? That's use of deadly force.

(You're a trained corrections officer or some such and used a baton on the legs and arms of a rioting prisoner? That's probably not use of deadly force. Context and training matter here.)

Praxidike
August 5, 2014, 01:28 PM
Not that I'd carry one, but if I did carry a collapsible baton, I certainly wouldn't choose Fury. They have earned a reputation for junk products.
Amazon has the incorrect picture up there. This is the real Amazon product page for the Fury Baton that has negative reviews (http://amzn.com/B00I2FTYSY). That is not the one I ordered. The one I ordered is by a different company, and dozens of reviewers, several within the past couple of weeks, claim that what they received was better than what they expected. The quality is high according to them.

I'll judge for myself when it gets here tomorrow, but if it's not, I'll simple send it back at Amazon's cost.

Praxidike
August 5, 2014, 01:38 PM
FWIW, there are instances where batons are used as less-lethal devices, but the training in so doing is vital and documentation of that training can be important to have.

You bought a baton off Amazon and used it on someone? That's use of deadly force.

(You're a trained corrections officer or some such and used a baton on the legs and arms of a rioting prisoner? That's probably not use of deadly force. Context and training matter here.)
Yes, it could be be deadly force. So could a cane/walking stick. Hitting anyone with any blunt object could potentially be deadly force. I guess my point is that compared to stabbing or shooting someone, 1 strike to a leg or arm would be less likely to result in a loss of life. If as in my off the top of my head example, an assailant had someone else in a choke hold, I'd like to have options base of the situation. Sometimes taking a life or risking shooting the victim as well as the attacker might not be the best option for that particular situation.

Sam1911
August 5, 2014, 01:54 PM
I don't disagree with that and like I said, having options is usually a good thing (as long as you don't get crossed up trying to sort out which thing to grab in your moment of desperation). Just pointing out that in instances where "less lethal" means of force might have an ever-so-slightly wider acceptability than deadly force does, a baton won't be considered such.

chameleonbear
August 5, 2014, 02:26 PM
I actually carry one in my bag. However it has not nor will ever be used against a human. I do not have the training to properly use it in such a manner. I use it as a protection against animals. I have also used it to crack open a car window, and used it to break/check other random stuff. I've used it on a tire to make sure it was properly inflated... But it's never been used as a weapon (lethal or less than) against a person.

RustyShackelford
August 5, 2014, 02:54 PM
ASP batons have been in use since the mid 1980s. 007/Bond used a MI-06 issued ASP a few times in author John Gardner's Bond novels. ;)
ASPs were standard issue to sworn US Secret Service agents too. Actor Clint Eastwood used a ASP in a scene for In The Line Of Fire(1993, www.imfdb.org ).
Many police & sworn deputies in my metro area use ASPs. I've seen the company site & it looks like they cut many models. :confused:
I liked the airweight "lever-loc" 21" baton but it now seems "out of stock" :mad:.

I also saw the Mako Group polymer(rubber coated handle & glass breaker) 21" weapon. Author & tactics trainer Massad F Ayoob, www.MassadAyoobgroup.com , gave the polymer Mako weapon a good write-up. It retails directly from Mako for approx $89.00 USD.
I saw a simple S&W branded baton for about $30.00 at a local Bass Pro Shop. The quality looked decent & it had a rubber grip.
I like the "glass breaker" add ons which not all impact batons have. Injured drivers in ponds or streams is common in my metro area & the incidents of babies/kids in hot cars have increased too.
Many cops & armed professionals are going back to polished wood/custom made night sticks. The quality is great & they have merit for some limited uses. I've seen a few shops & custom wood stick builders online. Wait times & delivery can be long. :(

As for the use of impact weapons, Id check the local laws or statues. For Florida you can see; www.mylicensesite.com and/or get a recent www.Floridafirearmslaw.com guide. The gun law guide is by a working Florida lawyer/JD. He also covers OC sprays, canes/batons, knives, EDWs/Taser, etc.

To my knowledge, a valid FL W/concealed license covers concealed impact weapons, chemical agents(mace), EDWs, etc. These items can be carried in the open w/o a W license but city or county ordinances might apply.

hso
August 5, 2014, 04:54 PM
an assailant had someone else in a choke hold,

Woah there. You're not a cop and you're not authorized to take a pipe and start whacking on sum dude you don't know wrestling with sum other dude you don't know. That's not smart and can land you in a world of trouble. You're much better off with the pepper spray in that sort of situation (you're actually much better off staying out of that situation other than to call 911).

A baton is useful if you're trained in using it to defend yourself. Just yourself. AND that training is important more than you realize.

I'm trained and certified to carry one and I've trained with sticks for years and I promise you that it is remarkably easy for an amatuer to missunderstand the complexities of using one. If you carry a cane or flashlight and you think you want to get some guy off another guy do not strike at their arms unless you're willing to own the responsibility for hitting either of them in the face or head and causing permanent injury that will cripple you financially and personally.

RustyShackelford
August 5, 2014, 06:05 PM
I agree with the last message.
Private citizens using impact weapons or batons can have serious legal & civil action problems. :uhoh:
I've talked to sworn LE officers & licensed security who prefer not to carry/use them.
As noted, strikes or jabs can quickly turn ugly. "Witnesses" or by-standers may see you wielding a stick or baton then tell investigators/prosecutors you were aggressive or violent. The attack or robbery would be quickly distorted unless a CCTV video or other crime scene details can display the baton owner's actions.

A C2 Taser or a Mark III/IV size OC spray might work better than a sap, ASP, PR24 or night-stick.

Vonderek
August 5, 2014, 07:05 PM
I carry one EDC as when I walk my dog every day. Have had some run-ins with loose pitbulls in the past and think it would give me some space without having to shoot them.

westy39
August 5, 2014, 07:42 PM
I carried an ASP baton for several years on duty. The ASP is one fine piece of equipment and IT IS NOT A LEAD PIPE. If you do decide to carry one, as I still do, then check your local laws and get some training. There are a lot of opinions out there regarding the ASP I for one found it to be a much better choice than the PR24 I carried before the BPD let me carry the ASP. Just my thoughts from the Big Sky Country, Montana.

zerobarrier
August 5, 2014, 08:20 PM
Correct me if I am wrong but I always thought a baton was an offensive weapon more then a defensive weapon.

Sam1911
August 5, 2014, 09:20 PM
Offensive? How do you mean? Sticks of various kinds have been used for millennia to defend one's self. Kind of an inefficient choice for hunting down someone, though. Any weapon you have to close to nearly contact distance to use makes a sub-optimal choice for offensive purposes.

RustyShackelford
August 5, 2014, 09:55 PM
Batons or night-sticks have been in US law enforcement & private security since the early 1800s.
I was issued a cheap wood night-stick in the MPs in the late 1980s. Today's USAF Security Forces(what were SPs) & US Army MPs use the standard ASPs :rolleyes: .
As noted, a few defense enthusiasts & law enforcement/security officers are now buying custom wood batons. They do not collapse like the PR24s or ASPs.
I've heard they work better for patrol use. Cops or guards can use impact weapons to deflect strikes or blows.
"Less lethal" weapons are intended to subdue or de-escalate an aggressive subject. Training is critical with batons or ASPs. A mistake or a swing to the wrong spot could quickly kill a subject or cause a TBI. :uhoh:
A street thug with a 24 page rap sheet & prison tats all over his 6'06" body will role his wheel-chair into court & the "jury of your peers" will look at you like you just kicked their dog. :rolleyes:

PDs & state troopers get sued all the time over batons & impact weapons. A citizen will be unfairly called a "wanna be cop" or "blood-thirsty" for having a ASP or night-stick.

www.Sheepdogwoodworks.com

Praxidike
August 6, 2014, 03:25 AM
Batons or night-sticks have been in US law enforcement & private security since the early 1800s.
I was issued a cheap wood night-stick in the MPs in the late 1980s. Today's USAF Security Forces(what were SPs) & US Army MPs use the standard ASPs :rolleyes: .
As noted, a few defense enthusiasts & law enforcement/security officers are now buying custom wood batons. They do not collapse like the PR24s or ASPs.
I've heard they work better for patrol use. Cops or guards can use impact weapons to deflect strikes or blows.
"Less lethal" weapons are intended to subdue or de-escalate an aggressive subject. Training is critical with batons or ASPs. A mistake or a swing to the wrong spot could quickly kill a subject or cause a TBI. :uhoh:
A street thug with a 24 page rap sheet & prison tats all over his 6'06" body will role his wheel-chair into court & the "jury of your peers" will look at you like you just kicked their dog. :rolleyes:

PDs & state troopers get sued all the time over batons & impact weapons. A citizen will be unfairly called a "wanna be cop" or "blood-thirsty" for having a ASP or night-stick.

www.Sheepdogwoodworks.com
It's all a matter of common sense. In some cases I believe people will be more understanding of the uses of a baton vs pulling out a gun, and for some people, they are going to look at us as "blood thirsty" no matter what weapon we carry especially in the case of a firearm.

Praxidike
August 6, 2014, 04:07 AM
Woah there. You're not a cop and you're not authorized to take a pipe and start whacking on sum dude you don't know wrestling with sum other dude you don't know. That's not smart and can land you in a world of trouble. You're much better off with the pepper spray in that sort of situation (you're actually much better off staying out of that situation other than to call 911).

It was an example that wasn't meant to be taken literally as if I would run up to complete strangers and start whacking away, but if was in a situation where I personally felt that shooting someone could be interpreted as being justified, but would be overkill, I would call 911 and use pepper spray first whether it was an animal or a person...

Madcap_Magician
August 6, 2014, 09:48 AM
You know, having trained with Monadnock batons, I really prefer a straight stick or a PR24.

I like the PR24 because you can hold the side handle for that thrust twixt wind and water while also using the shaft along your forearm to defend against knife/stick/hand-to-hand attacks.

I feel that the expandables are poorly balanced for striking- often the weight is centered more toward the hand than toward the tip.

A good hickory straight stick is much faster in hand, too.

hso
August 6, 2014, 10:27 AM
Praxidike,

We still can't escape the fact that training is critical in properly using these sorts of defensive tools. If nothing else, to dispel the myths/misunderstanding of their use and the dangers inherent in their use. It is incumbent on the responsible user to get some training in properly using this sort of equipment.

RustyShackelford
August 6, 2014, 11:42 AM
To answer post #23, let's put that into context....
Let's say you are exiting a large store like a Target or a Walmart or maybe a Home Depot. As you move towards your vehicle you see an unknown man standing over another striking him with a ASP or wood baton. :eek:
Would you immediately assume the guy with ASP is a armed citizen(licensed & trained) and the man on the ground(bleeding from a few blows) is the suspect? :uhoh:
A similar situation would be different with a Taser(C2/X26c) where a citizen could deploy the EDW then call for help or watch over the thug as they contact 911/police. The same can be said for chemical sprays or OC but they immediate effects wouldn't be the same as a gunshot or a Taser hit.

I also disagree with the "common sense" remark. Not all bystanders or even jurors are going to be honest or fully involved in the process.
Don't be naive & think a criminal investigator or prosecutor will have your interests or concerns at heart.
This is what makes use of force & lethal force events so tricky.

Old Dog
August 6, 2014, 02:45 PM
Yeah, MadcapMagician, I loved the ol' PR24 myself for those same reasons ... and then there was the famed "Georgia State Police Take-down" that got your guy proned out ASAP into a cuffing position (I never quite mastered it myself, but it looked cool) ...

Issued the ASP now for many years, never ever used it except in training (I did have a partner who pulled his one night and a response came from the crowd, "Boy, you better put that stick away 'fore I shove it up yer ***").

We tend to go straight for our TASERs or OC to stop a subject's action(s).

As an intermediate force option, a collapsible baton has never really sold me ... I cannot see a citizen/civilian application for a collapsible baton, because if you're already in an intermediate force situation, it's probably escalating quickly anyway and you're not going to be able to use it for creating distance unless you can deliver effective strikes ...

Let's say you are exiting a large store like a Target or a Walmart or maybe a Home Depot. As you move towards your vehicle you see an unknown man standing over another striking him with a ASP or wood baton.
Would you immediately assume the guy with ASP is a armed citizen(licensed & trained) and the man on the ground(bleeding from a few blows) is the suspect?Ah, you guys are now getting a little too far down in the weeds ...

RustyShackelford
August 6, 2014, 06:17 PM
Well aww shucks....
I guess you can't or won't answer. :rolleyes:
It's a difficult topic. That's what you(as a private citizen) need to consider before packing a impact weapon.
I'd go on to bet that some "outhouse" lawyer will stroll in 5/10 later & claim to know the laws or "witness" all the events.

Sol
August 6, 2014, 06:59 PM
If your carrying a baton here in Ohio, atleast my city, your either a cop or a member of the highschool marching band.

Or a criminal with baton and wanton disregard for the law.

RustyShackelford
August 6, 2014, 08:41 PM
Bats of different shapes & sizes have been the "poor man's" security system for decades. To see a bat by the door in a New York City apt isn't uncommon. :D
Many years ago, the police union & FOP in Chicago IL lobbied hard for street cops to keep using the alloy shaft Mag-Lights over newer, lighter polymer models. :uhoh:
The Windy City cops said they had to keep the Mag-Lights.

In the days before white-lights & small EDC type lights, I toted a 5 cell C Mag-Light. It was handy & bright. I liked the balance & swiftness of the C types over the thicker D series Maglights.

Rusty
PS; it's off topic slightly but most MLB players now buy & use custom bats. They aren't cheap but players can use what works best considering weather, temperature humidity wind speed etc. ;)

tubeshooter
August 7, 2014, 10:32 PM
I've seen a few cheap collapsible batons here and there. I have never been particularly impressed, personally.

The legal ambiguity is a big turnoff for me. If you actually used it for defense, you'd probably get in the same amount of trouble you would for using brass knuckles. Good luck convincing law enforcement that you intended to use it in a non-lethal fashion...

You also have to get rather up close and personal. I would not look forward to dealing with an assailant with a knife using a baton. Or even a large mean dog, to be perfectly honest.


The only thing it has going for it is being collapsible, and therefore somewhat more discreet than a T-ball bat. I would far prefer the T-ball bat (preferably aluminum) in most every other way. At least you won't get hassled and find yourself trying to explain to the cops why it is legal to even possess in [insert your state here]. I'm not a lawyer, but I think you're good in all 50 states...

Your preferred flavor of Mag-Lite works, too.

rcmodel
August 8, 2014, 12:11 AM
Batons, and even ball bats are just not a good idea for constant carry in everyday life.

A baton, collapsable or not, is viewed as a weapon in most jurisdictions all over the country.

And you hit hit someone with a ball-bat?
You better darn well be able to prove you were on your way too, or coming home from a baseball game!
Or it is perceived as a weapon too!

Why not just carry a wood stockman's cane?
If you limp a little when the cops get there!

You are protected by the Federal ADA act, and they can't even legally question you much about why you were carrying it as I understand it.

rc

hso
August 8, 2014, 09:36 AM
ADA act, and they can't even legally question

That has become one of those internet/defensive discussion myths. The reality is that there's a reluctance to question whether you should be carrying a cane or not through a security checkpoint as opposed to in the event of an altercation or defensive use.

ClickClickD'oh
August 8, 2014, 09:50 AM
Non-lethal is a complete misnomer here. Depending on your training and how you use it, it MAY be "less-lethal."

So much this.

Please please please if you are going to carry a baton get proper training with it and practice regularly. A baton used improperly can easily cause death or serious bodily injury.

Praxidike
August 8, 2014, 01:31 PM
Let's say you are exiting a large store like a Target or a Walmart or maybe a Home Depot. As you move towards your vehicle you see an unknown man standing over another striking him with a ASP or wood baton.
Would you immediately assume the guy with ASP is a armed citizen(licensed & trained) and the man on the ground(bleeding from a few blows) is the suspect?

I don't get this argument that you all keep bringing up. Okay, so the argument is if I'm defending myself or some else in public with a baton, It might be seen by bystanders that I'm the suspect? Yet, if I'm pointing a gun and am firing at someone in public, am I not going to look even worse to bystanders? Aren't the bystanders going to be in fear of their lives as well being that bullets travel, but batons do not? Aren't the bystanders going to be in possible danger of also being stuck by a stray bullet no matter how careful I am?

I'm not going to shoot someone, take a life, and put a family though all the pain and suffering that comes with it when I could have used a "less lethal" options that will afford me the opportunity to get away or stop the attack without killing anyone or putting other lives in danger. Basically, some of you are suggesting that I shoot someone instead of using a "less lethal" baton for no other reason than appearances at that moment in time? Not to open up this debate again, but for example, did Zimmerman look any better or have less or more explaining to do when he shoot an unarmed man vs if he had only, extremely conservatively, used an baton?

I seen many threads on THR about people carrying canes for self defense too. Have any of you cane carriers taken a self defense cane class?

Vodoun da Vinci
August 8, 2014, 02:32 PM
A baton is useful if you're trained in using it to defend yourself. Just yourself. AND that training is important more than you realize.

I'm trained and certified to carry one and I've trained with sticks for years and I promise you that it is remarkably easy for an amatuer to missunderstand the complexities of using one.

Roger that. I have always wanted a baton but it is illegal in Illinois. That said, I have studied and taught several forms of weapons including swords and short/long sticks and batons and folks tend to underestimate just how bad you can hurt someone with "a stick".

My brother in law (a police officer) took to obligatory training and was fooling around down on the farm with one "showing me some stuff" and I cautioned him that a few hours of training with it did not qualify him as an expert. Which he took as a personal affront and decided to show me a thing or two with his stick.

I took it away from him and gave it back 3 times. Then we had a fruitful instruction period about what you can (and can't) do with a baton. But my point is that these types of weapons are not casual things. I think in the hands of someone trained they are more likely lethal or quickly incapacitating than a firearm depending on the target and level of force/technique used or not used. Don't play with sticks. Someone can definitely get seriously hurt even if not by intent.

VooDoo

Praxidike
August 8, 2014, 05:38 PM
Praxidike,

We still can't escape the fact that training is critical in properly using these sorts of defensive tools. If nothing else, to dispel the myths/misunderstanding of their use and the dangers inherent in their use. It is incumbent on the responsible user to get some training in properly using this sort of equipment.
thanks for the info. I'm going to look into getting some training. Not sure if anyone in my area offers it or not, but I haven't looked yet.

hso
August 8, 2014, 09:15 PM
If there's an ASP trainer, and they're all over, you should be able to find one.

Also, look into escrima schools (but they're not going to teach you how to not mess someone up badly).

Vodoun da Vinci
August 9, 2014, 11:07 AM
If there's an ASP trainer, and they're all over, you should be able to find one.

Also, look into escrima schools (but they're not going to teach you how to not mess someone up badly).

Roger that as well....I trained with escrima proponents and *not* getting hurt in training is difficult. The exercises and "kata" are cool but when we commenced to testing each other it became quickly apparent that without serious safety gear someone is gonna get hurt right off the bat. In escrima against Japanese style tanto jutsu and Hanbo one or the other involved in kumite usually got injured in the first couple exchanges.

All of these techniques transfer directly to using a baton or short stick(s) and if yer gonna have one/use one training is essential.

VooDoo

4v50 Gary
August 9, 2014, 01:02 PM
I don't like collapsable batons and when I worked in uniform, carried a PR-24. It has something the collapsable batons don't have: mass. Even then, I found using control techniques more useful than striking a person (fewer citizen complaints too).

RustyShackelford
August 13, 2014, 03:29 PM
First, I agree that having formal training or instruction from a respected source is very smart. To document this skill training & having it ready for any lawyer, investigator, prosecutor, etc is a good idea.
There are a few top classes/cadre in my metro area so I can't complain.
If there are no schools or cadre near you, buy a few DVDs or guides(keep the records too to document that you purchased them).


Also, re; the Walmart-Home Depot lot incident(s), holding a subject at gun-point after a lethal force event would be different than using a impact weapon or sap.
In the modern era, "witnesses" or "by-standers" will quickly use cell phones or DV cameras to document you using the weapon.
A firearm can also be lethal but by-standers may assume you are a licensed citizen or law enforcement officer doing a off duty arrest. They won't see you striking or hit the subject with a gun the way you'd use a baton or cane.
The whole story would later come out either by law enforcement or the store CCTV/staff/etc.
In short, a firearm would be better weapon to have & hold a subject(detain) than a impact weapon.

glistam
August 13, 2014, 04:47 PM
I often EDC a baton when not working (job site is restricted, but also safe). I started with them back when I worked security where I got training with Monadnock Autolock series, a product line I still prefer to this day. I feel they are superior both for their weight and the fact that they do not require smashing into the the floor to close.

Since I can't carry a gun in MD, I continued to carry a baton after I got out of that line of work, though always carry pepper spray and at least one knife when I do. I also collect batons like the old classic Espantoon of Baltimore fame. I carry walking sticks too, and primarily carry a baton when the stick would be in my way or I need both my hands for the task I'm setting out to.

Get training. Simple as that. You're a walking liability without it. Not only will it teach you how to use it properly, it will dispel many of the unrealistic ideas we often have about use of force in defense. Not just legal, but what such situations actually tend to be in real life, vs. the ones we imagine.

Beyond that, I find a lot of the what-if-ing and legal speculation about civilian baton use on this forum over the years to be tiresome, but will say no more, other than to say do your legal homework and talk to the right people. Not all experts are created equal.

Old Dog
August 14, 2014, 03:42 PM
A firearm can also be lethal but by-standers may assume you are a licensed citizen or law enforcement officer doing a off duty arrest.Not intended to derail the thread, but one shouldn't necessarily be worried about what bystanders might assume. If you're holding someone at gunpoint in your local Wal-Mart parking lot and not holding up your shiny badge in your other hand while repeating loudly, "Police officer" or "deputy sheriff," you are still in for interesting interaction with the responding cops, and quite possibly more at risk of getting shot yourself by some rookie or adrenaline-charged Tackleberry ("man with a gun" calls get some folks a bit fired up) who's violating Rule #3. Holding an asp baton calmly at your side, maybe not so much ...

RustyShackelford
August 14, 2014, 04:30 PM
First, I did some research & heard of a Baltimore Maryland PD officer who creates custom night-sticks & batons while off-duty.
Many Baltimore police cadets & Maryland state troopers get these wood night sticks when they graduate from the LE academy or when a officer/trooper retires. :D
I'm not sure if the police officer sells batons to the general public but it would be cool to collect if you buy night-sticks/batons.

As for the "by-standers" Id say review the recent Martin-Zimmerman event(court case) in central Florida, 2013.
In a critical incident, witnesses & on-lookers will tell all types of tales. Some true, some not.
I also wouldn't think you'd be standing "calmly" with your ASP by your side.
Working security in a few urban & metro areas, I can tell you, large crowds will flare up in a split second, evidence(weapons, drugs, etc) get snatched up or hidden, people(by standers) will make things more complex or unsafe until LE shows up. :uhoh:.

glistam
August 14, 2014, 04:51 PM
First, I did some research & heard of a Baltimore Maryland PD officer who creates custom night-sticks & batons while off-duty.
Many Baltimore police cadets & Maryland state troopers get these wood night sticks when they graduate from the LE academy or when a officer/trooper retires.
I'm not sure if the police officer sells batons to the general public but it would be cool to collect if you buy night-sticks/batons.

Yes, his name is Sgt. Chase Armington (Perryville PD) and he sells them under the name Elite Espantoons (http://www.eliteespantoons.com/). He does sell to the general public as there are no restrictions on batons in Maryland. I own one in cocobolo with an inscribed strap. They are gorgeous pieces, and quite a bit bigger than you'd expect.

Old Dog
August 15, 2014, 01:59 AM
Ah, Rusty ... your scenario of someone "standing over" someone else (post #27) whilst striking him with a large stick seems a tad extreme. Batons would not normally used to strike someone once they are down (late 20th century LAPD doctrine notwithstanding).


In a critical incident, witnesses & on-lookers will tell all types of tales. Some true, some not.
I also wouldn't think you'd be standing "calmly" with your ASP by your side.
Working security in a few urban & metro areas, I can tell you, large crowds will flare up in a split second, evidence(weapons, drugs, etc) get snatched up or hidden, people(by standers) will make things more complex or unsafe until LE shows up.Having actually responded to a number of incidents where large crowds were present (followed by the dubious pleasure of interviewing numerous bystanders after said incidents), I still believe that it's the presence of a gun pointed at someone that garners far more negative attention and responses than a situation wherein one delivered a couple strikes to a primary zone on some disruptive individual's person ...

glistam, thanks for the link. Cool stuff for the guy who might be retiring soon ...

RustyShackelford
August 15, 2014, 05:21 PM
I think with #47, we can agree to disagree. :D
The wood baton website is nice. Thanks for the details & link.
I like the Sheepdog night sticks too so buying a wood baton would be a tough choice.
Another firm, called "street-ninja" or something offered wood sticks of different lengths & styles(maple, hickory, bamboo, walnut, etc).
I'm not into tooling or woodworking so I don't know all the terms. ;)

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