Leaving a SBR or suppressor in the car


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HRnightmare
August 25, 2014, 10:57 AM
So everyone always talks about a trunk gun or a truck gun...

What''s the legalities or opinions of the writing of SBR's being left in your trunk while out running errands or traveling (lets keep it within the state to avoid the discussion on needing that approval).

If you leave an SBR in the car in the parking lot of a store or your work is that considered not in your possession enough to be at risk of facing criminal action?

I tend to be of the opinion that it is NO different than keeping it in your home, not in a safe which is PERFECTLY legal, but others have said it is NOT the same and violates the rules of class 3 items.

Opinions...facts?

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Sam1911
August 25, 2014, 10:57 AM
What rules of TITLE II items (not "Class 3" items) would those be? :) Somebody stealing your stuff doesn't count as you doing an unlawful transfer.


Some states do have laws requiring some form of secure storage for guns in general (or handguns) but I've never heard of any for NFA weapons specifically.


My guideline for this sort of claim is to always ask someone to give you the source and text of the law that requires whatever it is they say is required. If they can't, then ... hmmm...

HRnightmare
August 25, 2014, 11:17 AM
Yeah It was at a gun class so I wasn't really getting into it in depth with him. He seemed unknowledgeable about firearm laws in general but was a lawyer.

Like I said, I was of the opinion as you are that locked inside my trunk is in my possession and is no issue.

I read the NFA rules and could not find anything contradicting such but you know how that goes...there are 300 different interpretations to everything the NFA branch says. Even they have contradicted their own opinions.

Willie Sutton
August 25, 2014, 11:19 AM
For what it's worth, a buddy who's an FBI Agent never seems to not have his MP-5 with him in his car. The FBI "Standard" for car trunk security is a chain and lock inside the trunk that allows the trunk to be popped about 4 inches by using the usual key, and then you need to reach thru the crack and use a second key on the padlock. If it's good enough for them as a security plan, it's good enough for us.


Willie

.

4thPointOfContact
August 25, 2014, 11:22 AM
If someone were to make the claim that an NFA item in one's trunk wasn't in one's possession when the person is not in the immediate area of the trunk....

... then ask them if they weren't in the immediate area of the trunk and 20-kilos of cocaine were found in it would they not have to worry about a possession of controlled substance charge.

(Yes, my pronouns are all mixed up, try to muddle through :) )

HRnightmare
August 25, 2014, 12:47 PM
If someone were to make the claim that an NFA item in one's trunk wasn't in one's possession when the person is not in the immediate area of the trunk....

And that is sort of the same scenario I said to him. What if I left it in my home in a closet and someone broke into my home and stole it. Would that not be considered in my possession? What if I was at a range and I turned my head to sneeze and someone snatched it behind my back. Would that not be in possession? What if someone came into my house and was able to crack into my safe?

I told him I think he is taking the rules far to extensively. It does NOT need to be chained to his wrist at all times.

My concern more than this one would be what if I had my SBR on me and there was a situation were I needed it. I am not going to not do what must be done to preserve my life or someone else's but I could only imagine the turdstorm that would come from someone using a class 3 AR15. What would the media even call that? "Sawed off assault machine gun"? "hacked down mini AR15 designed for murdering puppies and children"? I could only imagine the smear campaign that the anti gunners would come up with.

Tirod
August 25, 2014, 01:08 PM
Two key security is common for .Gov use, and done all the time by the Army. The intent is that defeating one lock might be unintentional - it may have been left that way, people make mistakes, latches can malfunction. Defeating two locks demonstrates clear intent at least as it's been traditionally defined by case law, etc.

So if somebody came to get your guns and was prepared, would any more locks deter them? Not so much.

As for the legal owner of any firearm, storage in a vehicle would more likely revert to state laws - and the carrying of a rifle is often called out as being unloaded, cased, with ammo stored separately, both out of sight.

Whereas, a "handgun," or more distinctly called out in some states, a "pistol," can be carried loaded in the passenger compartment by a CCL ready to hand, and not necessarily on his person. What throws a wrench into the discussion is which State? One says yes, another, no, a third, maybe?

Now make that SBR a pistol with a wrist brace and see where it fits. "Rifles" and "pistols" are often addressed in different ways, and what will be interesting is seeing how and why that might have to be reconciled. I'm considering a SB15, it will be legally a "pistol," but on body carry will obviously not be happening. So just exactly how I can transport in my state and the three other states located 7, 15, and 35 miles away is going to mean a lot of research.

Nobody wants a simple traffic stop for innocuous reasons to get all sour. With that in mind, I'm not expecting any pat, one size fits all answer. It's complicated.

ScottS
August 25, 2014, 01:09 PM
And that is sort of the same scenario I said to him. What if I left it in my home in a closet and someone broke into my home and stole it. Would that not be considered in my possession? What if I was at a range and I turned my head to sneeze and someone snatched it behind my back. Would that not be in possession? What if someone came into my house and was able to crack into my safe?

I told him I think he is taking the rules far to extensively. It does NOT need to be chained to his wrist at all times.

You have to wonder, What's the difference between 'secured in my car' and 'secured in my safe?' Or do guys who believe this line of reasoning just always walk around everywhere with an AR-15-shaped bulge under their coats?

The rules are sometimes convoluted enough without adding our own bizarre interpretation, but some of us always seem to manage to do it.

ETA: this is not aimed at you, OP, but at your "gun class" source.

HRnightmare
August 25, 2014, 01:19 PM
The rules are sometimes convoluted enough without adding our own bizarre interpretation, but some of us always seem to manage to do it.

I couldn't have said it better.

I think we agree that if someone has to force their way into our property and take without permission by way of a criminal act, then they removed it from "our possession" whether thats in my safe, my trunk or whatever else.

Heck, even my wife's flower pots and garden gnomes are sitting in the front yard unsecured and we are at work, but I would argue they are in our possession.

Arizona_Mike
August 25, 2014, 03:00 PM
I carry all 10 of my NFA items with me at all times. It gets really difficult drying them all after a shower.

Seriously, NO. They do not have to be in your possession just not in someone else's possession!

Mike

Aaron Baker
August 25, 2014, 07:00 PM
It gets really difficult drying them all after a shower.

I'm so used to Facebook that I was looking for the "Like" button for this comment! Funny one, Mike.

I think some people overthink things.

Aaron

medalguy
August 25, 2014, 08:43 PM
In your possession OR under your control. Anything in your car would most certainly be under your control if you have the car keys with you. Same with your safe at home.

Arizona Mike is right. It's pretty tough hauling a Solothurn around with you. :neener:

jmorris
August 28, 2014, 10:54 AM
Locks are for honest people but they do show ones intent on keeping others out. A lock on a car door can be just as effective/ineffective as a safe. Varies a lot on the person.

My setup is pretty basic.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/3g/jeepm.jpg

HRnightmare
August 28, 2014, 04:06 PM
Jmorris Is that your vehicle?

I have seen this photo floating around the internet. Not to side track the conversation but do you think a gun in plain sight is the best idea?

Aaron Baker
August 28, 2014, 11:19 PM
As I recall, that does belong to jmorris. And as I understand it, it's not in plain sight unless you're kneeling down next to the door, looking up through the window at the roof of the jeep.

So, in other words, someone could theoretically see it from outside the vehicle, but they wouldn't unless they had some reason to be trying to look inside the vehicle in the first place. A little window tint would go a long way in that department too.

Of course, I don't know where jmorris lives. Could be he's still in one of those few places in the United States where it's still safe to leave guns visible in vehicles without fear of theft.

Aaron

jmorris
August 29, 2014, 11:58 AM
It's mine and no you can't see it. You would be surprised at how few people look up when trying to see what is in a car.

I went through a road block a number of years ago and for whatever reason the officer asked if I have any firearms in the car. With my hands remaining on the wheel I motioned up with my thumb and eyes. He bent down and said "Oh.", then took a step away from the muzzle.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/3g/DSC02228.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/3g/DSC02234.jpg

Arizona_Mike
August 29, 2014, 05:52 PM
I went through a road block a number of years ago and for whatever reason the officer asked if I have any firearms in the car. With my hands remaining on the wheel I motioned up with my thumb and eyes. He bent down and said "Oh.", then took a step away from the muzzle.
You made my day.

Mike

bangswitch
August 31, 2014, 01:36 AM
It probably goes without saying, but always carry a copy of your tax stamp form with you whenever carrying the SBR/suppressor, NFA items, etc.

Aaron Baker
August 31, 2014, 02:47 PM
It probably goes without saying, but always carry a copy of your tax stamp form with you whenever carrying the SBR/suppressor, NFA items, etc.

It doesn't actually go without saying.

I'm not suggesting it's a bad idea. In fact, it's a good idea, and it's good advice to tell people to do it.

But it isn't required. And in my state, at least, there are no state laws against suppressors, SBRs, etc. As an attorney, I'd feel comfortable dealing with state or local police who had a knee-jerk reaction. I believe I could avoid a big hassle without having to have my private tax documents available to show them.

ATF agents are, technically, the only people you have to show your tax stamps to. And I've never met one in the field.

So, sure, carry copies of your tax stamps. It's a good idea. But I never do.

Aaron

Warp
September 1, 2014, 01:08 PM
I would not want to be out without a copy of the form. I keep a copy in my range bag as well as a grip core on the gun

bangswitch
September 6, 2014, 01:41 AM
It doesn't actually go without saying.

I'm not suggesting it's a bad idea. In fact, it's a good idea, and it's good advice to tell people to do it.

But it isn't required. And in my state, at least, there are no state laws against suppressors, SBRs, etc. As an attorney, I'd feel comfortable dealing with state or local police who had a knee-jerk reaction. I believe I could avoid a big hassle without having to have my private tax documents available to show them.

ATF agents are, technically, the only people you have to show your tax stamps to. And I've never met one in the field.

So, sure, carry copies of your tax stamps. It's a good idea. But I never do.

Aaron My cousin, who is well known in his area, had his suppressed SBR in his car when he went through a routine traffic stop being performed by the county sheriff. The rifle was lying in the back seat of his car, unloaded, in plain view, and he also declared it and the concealed carry he had; the deputy asked him for his "permit" to possess a suppressed rifle. He then showed the deputy his tax stamp form. Since his is a county where the local sheriff will not sign applications for either SBR or suppressors, his rifle is in trust, which does not require the sheriff to sign the form. The deputy, upon seeing that the form did not have the sheriff's signature, declared it invalid and was going to confiscate the rifle and take my cousin in. My cousin is a former NC ALE officer and worked closely with BATFE and knows the regs inside and out. He insisted that the deputy call both the sheriff and the BATFE officer for the area, to explain the trust registration.

So, sometimes it doesn't even help to have the form with you, if you come upon a LEO who is ignorant of the regulations.

Warp
September 6, 2014, 10:24 PM
My cousin, who is well known in his area, had his suppressed SBR in his car when he went through a routine traffic stop being performed by the county sheriff. The rifle was lying in the back seat of his car, unloaded, in plain view, and he also declared it and the concealed carry he had; the deputy asked him for his "permit" to possess a suppressed rifle. He then showed the deputy his tax stamp form. Since his is a county where the local sheriff will not sign applications for either SBR or suppressors, his rifle is in trust, which does not require the sheriff to sign the form. The deputy, upon seeing that the form did not have the sheriff's signature, declared it invalid and was going to confiscate the rifle and take my cousin in. My cousin is a former NC ALE officer and worked closely with BATFE and knows the regs inside and out. He insisted that the deputy call both the sheriff and the BATFE officer for the area, to explain the trust registration.

So, sometimes it doesn't even help to have the form with you, if you come upon a LEO who is ignorant of the regulations.

And for them, ignorance of the law sometimes is an excuse to wrongly arrest you

jmorris
September 7, 2014, 01:09 AM
And for them, ignorance of the law sometimes is an excuse to wrongly arrest you

The tax stamp only helps at the prosecution phase. Arrest can and does happen with innocent people all the time or there would be little reason for courts.

There is no law that says you need to carry the form (or copy of it) with you but I have never heard of a single case where having done so had a negative effect.

I actually have multiple copies (1/4 scale), laminated, of all of them together in any bag/case one may find itself in.

Warp
September 7, 2014, 01:20 PM
The tax stamp only helps at the prosecution phase. Arrest can and does happen with innocent people all the time or there would be little reason for courts.

There is no law that says you need to carry the form (or copy of it) with you but I have never heard of a single case where having done so had a negative effect.

I actually have multiple copies (1/4 scale), laminated, of all of them together in any bag/case one may find itself in.

There would be plenty of reason for courts. Even guilty people who are arrested may not be convicted if there isn't enough evidence or if evidence is deemed inadmissible. And then of course even if there is sufficient admissible evidence for a conviction somebody needs to do the sentencing and whatnot.

And of course it is entirely possible for an officer of the law to have probable cause that a crime was, is, or is about to be committed, but the person is not guilty.

Those are all different things than an officer arresting somebody because the officer believes what the person is doing is illegal when it's not.

jmorris
September 8, 2014, 01:02 AM
Those are all different things than an officer arresting somebody because the officer believes what the person is doing is illegal when it's not.


I don't disagree but the arrest would happen and some one would go to jail, if that happens. The difference is that they would not get convicted and go to prison.

jmorris
September 8, 2014, 01:04 AM
Two different things. One is innocent until proven guilty but you don't have to be proven guilty to be arrested.

Ironman
September 8, 2014, 09:33 AM
I have this installed in my Tundra.

Video Review
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHV--toD8pY

http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i356/Firefighter1291/DE1AA248-B21B-4CE3-8AA4-08181F54A5FF-23282-00000FD41FD369EA_zps3b88d879.jpg

I have even fit a suppressed 9mm SBR in it lol.
http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i356/Firefighter1291/safe5_zpscaf5ce01.jpg

Ironman
September 8, 2014, 09:36 AM
I also have this under my back seat. And although I haven't bought the lock kit, they are out of plain sight when the seat is down.

Video Review
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIgorTTlpYE&list=UUBYaVN2iDkYjR-TJS8py9ww

http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i356/Firefighter1291/duha3_zpsf71a8ea8.jpg

Warp
September 8, 2014, 09:44 AM
Two different things. One is innocent until proven guilty but you don't have to be proven guilty to be arrested.

What we are talking about is completely different from the varying burdens of proof, etc, between the two.

You are talking about probable cause being the legal threshold for an arrest vs beyond a reasonable doubt by a jury of your peers being the legal threshold for conviction.

I am talking about how law enforcement officers can be ignorant of the law, make an arrest for a perfectly legal activity, and that is often accepted...whereas ignorance of the law is no excuse for the rest of us.

jmorris
September 8, 2014, 07:13 PM
I am talking about how law enforcement officers can be ignorant of the law, make an arrest for a perfectly legal activity, and that is often accepted...whereas ignorance of the law is no excuse for the rest of us.

I think we agree, even though you won't get convicted or charged the stamp won't nessassarly prevent you from being arrested by an officer that does the wrong thing.

leadcounsel
September 8, 2014, 09:03 PM
While not a direct comment on how it applies to Title II items, it is noteworthy that the SCOTUS views a vehicle (and mobile [not stationary] motor homes) as distinctly different than a home in nearly every critical analysis when it comes to your rights and privileges. It's well established legal opinion that there is a distinct difference as far as the Court is concerned.

For a fair summary and case cites read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_exception

Given the Court's distinctions, I would be quite cautious.

I don't have the direct answer to the OPs question. Perhaps it's geared to the person stopping home from the range to get some groceries.... But as a designated, always in your vehicle, "truck/trunk gun..." ... BAD IDEA in general, unless you have some specific tailored reason (I have livestock and I may have to put one down in the field or protect them from predators, for instance).

Slightly off topic, and I started a different thread to address this, but want to chime in here too. After having considered a designated truck long gun, stored away, for many years, I opted against it. Absent some totally unlikely catastrophe that requires the use of a longgun to extract myself, and absent a person being a farmer tending lifestock, or someone deep out in nature or on the plains with no phone reception, no help, perhaps living on the Mexico border, etc. I can see almost zero realistic situations where digging out a long gun from inside the vehicle (trunk, lock box, etc.) is going to be legally justifiable.... or wise. America routinely has natural disasters, hurricanes, floods, earthquakes, riots, etc. The periods of time where folks required and were legally justified in going to get their truck guns are anecdotal at best, and statistically nearly non-existent. Yeah, the Korean shop owners in the LA Riots... the Bell Tower sniper in Texas... okay, there are two and perhaps a few other examples... hardly the norm. And certainly not worth the very real and common risks of theft (rolling the dice every day to be among the millions of stolen vehicles or breakins, for which I have been a victim). Or the risks of unlawfully using or brandishing it and being arrested or prosecuted.

So, perhaps the OP has the wrong question/analysis in mind. What's the POINT of driving around with your $1000 AR, $200 can, and $400 EOTECH.

And - what if it goes south for some reason. Theft, or worse, you illegally use it... A criminal prosecution defense on a felony weapons, assault, aggravated assault, or homicide charge could easily hit $20,000 and quickly exceed 6 digits... conviction would possibly result in a felony (bye bye gun rights), prison (hello bunkmate bubba), loss of job, wages indefinitely, perhaps divorce, etc. and the scarlet letter of being a felon...

From a purely wise or risk/analysis situation, that's a lot of risk and little reward or upside for the security blanket of a tool you'd likely never be able to deploy legally.

Most states require "imminent fear of serious bodily injury or death" for the lawful use of lethal self defense. Not a threat of future harm. It must be immediate. That doesn't mean, time to go back to the truck, open the doors, unlock the gun box, perhaps assemble the gun, insert the magazine, lock and load, and then return to the "threat"... That is unlikely to satisify the legal requirements for the lawful use of a firearm in self defense.

My advice, stick with a handgun for which you already likely have (or should have) a CPL. Have it available to deploy immediately and defend against imminent deadly threats (car jackings, parking lot assaults, etc.) in compliance with the law, either on your person, or immediately accessible in the vehicle... secure it according to local laws.

MasterSergeantA
September 12, 2014, 05:29 PM
I agree. You may beat the rap, but you aren't going to avoid the ride.

Magnuumpwr
September 13, 2014, 01:21 PM
I have had an instance where law enforcement, with limited knowledge of NFA items made for a comedic interaction. One day called my wife to meet me at a gun show with my glock 17 suppressed. Upon entering the building, gun clearing is verified and a cinch tie attached. To clarify, the gun has a Storm threaded barrel with a Silencerco Osprey 9mm suppressor. "Back to the story", I hand my gun to one of the officers and he turns to the other saying, "man with this long of a barrel we could shoot all the way across Port Arthur!" Being I forgot to have my wife grab a copy of my stamp, it was a relief they had no idea what they were handed. Hate to think of the possible headache had this gone the other way!

wally
September 17, 2014, 01:31 PM
And for them, ignorance of the law sometimes is an excuse to wrongly arrest you

I'd I'd be filing a lawsuit as soon as I was released!

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