Is a suppressor and silencer one in the same?


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skyleader
August 29, 2014, 11:04 AM
I am in the process of getting my CCP and purchasing a Ruger Lc9S. However, I have some newbie questions...
Is a silencer the same thing as a suppressor? Is a silencer available for the Lc9S? Is it legal to have a "silencer" on one's pistol? Does such a silencer effect the trajectory/accuracy of the weapon?

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barnbwt
August 29, 2014, 11:06 AM
Suppressor is a PC version of silencer, which is what is actually in the NFA statute.

TCB

MtnCreek
August 29, 2014, 11:16 AM
Suppressor is a PC version of silencer

Physically Correct?

hammerklavier
August 29, 2014, 11:19 AM
They are the same thing. Silencers are available for most any pistol or rifle. For a pistol you need to purchase a threaded barrel that extends past the end of the slide. For a rifle you can have the barrel threaded. It is legal on most but not all states. You full out federal paperwork and pay $200 prior to buying. The trajectory is affected by the fact that you should use subsonic ammo. The accuracy is affected by the fact you may not be able to see your sights. Talk to a silencer retailer for more info.

Jim Watson
August 29, 2014, 11:23 AM
The inventor called it a silencer. The restrictive law calls it a silencer.
The Tactical Experts point out that it does not render the gun completely silent and therefore should be known as a suppressor. Tell it to Hiram P. Maxim who introduced them as silencers.

You can put a silencer on most any firearm. All that is needed is a threaded barrel. A lot of people will have one silencer and swap it around to whichever gun makes them feel the coolest today.

A silencer is legal but with many restrictions. You will pay several hundred bucks for the device, plus a $200 transfer tax and sextuplicate registration papers and a lengthy wait to get permission from the government to pick it up.

A silencer does not affect the trajectory of the bullet to any great amount. There is such a thing as "silencer boost" that can slightly increase the velocity.
It may or may not affect the mechanical accuracy; I have seen rifles being shot well at 1000 yards with silencers.
It affects the working accuracy. Unless you get a device with an eccentric bore - Ol Hiram made them that way, but it seems to be a recent rediscovery - you will have to have tall sights installed to see them and the target over the bulk of the silencer.

What it definitely does is affect the size and balance. Working silencers are pretty large, not the lipstick size devices seen in movies.

btg3
August 29, 2014, 11:27 AM
Well, you got yer noise suppressor and you got yer flash suppressor, somewhat depending on who you're talking with.

To address other obfuscation, this link may be of interest...
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/12/foghorn/ask-foghorn-whats-the-difference-between-a-muzzle-brake-a-compensator-and-a-flash-hider/

skyleader
August 29, 2014, 11:36 AM
My knowledge of silencers/suppressors just went up 1000%. Your input is a great starting point for my further research.

1858
August 29, 2014, 03:23 PM
A lot of people will have one silencer and swap it around to whichever gun makes them feel the coolest today.

:rolleyes: Yes, that's the only reason to own a suppressor.

As for Maxim, he also invented the silencer for the combustion engine but I've never seen an exhaust muffler sold as a silencer. He got the name wrong but then again he had a vested interest in selling his invention so named it to sell. Suppressor or muffler isn't quite as impressive as silencer. Suppressor is a far more accurate description as is muffler.

Theohazard
August 29, 2014, 03:43 PM
As for Maxim, he also invented the silencer for the combustion engine but I've never seen an exhaust muffler sold as a silencer. He got the name wrong but then again he had a vested interest in selling his invention so named it to sell. Suppressor or muffler isn't quite as impressive as silencer. Suppressor is a far more accurate description as is muffler.
In Europe, silencers are often called "mufflers". And car mufflers are often referred to as "silencers" in the UK.

jmorris
August 29, 2014, 03:50 PM
Even in the good old USA they call mufflers silencers.

http://www.nelsonglobalproducts.com/product_set/

I'll add that all of my suppressors are called silencers on the "type of firearm" part of the form 1's or 4's. Oh and you can also build them yourself, once you get the approved form 1 back.

rondog
August 29, 2014, 03:57 PM
Does anybody have any experience with a suppressed M1 carbine?

1858
August 29, 2014, 04:22 PM
And car mufflers are often referred to as "silencers" in the UK.

Really? I was born in England, educated in England, lived there for 24 years, visit almost every year and the vast majority of my family is still in England, and yet I never heard, used or knew anyone else that used the term silencer for a car exhaust system or muffler.

Theohazard
August 29, 2014, 04:43 PM
I was born in England, educated in England, lived there for 24 years, visit almost every year and the vast majority of my family is still in England, and yet I never heard, used or knew anyone else that used the term silencer for a car exhaust system or muffler.
I admit that I've never been to the UK, but all I know is that many British English dictionaries mention it as an alternative definition, and many UK-based car parts websites use the term "silencer" to mean muffler.

Here are a couple of British English dictionaries that say "silencer" is another term for a car muffler:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/silencer

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/silencer


And here are some UK muffler companies that refer to them as "silencers":

http://www.powerflowexhausts.co.uk/products/

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/universal-exhaust-silencers

http://www.franklinsilencers.co.uk/products


And if you Google "exhaust silencer" you'll see a lot more results just like those.

1858
August 29, 2014, 04:54 PM
Theohazard, I can't argue with those links but I will continue to refer to a device that only offers 20 to 40 dB of sound reduction as a suppressor regardless of Maxim, the NFA, ATF or automotive parts companies. Had they been correctly named, perhaps they wouldn't have been classified as Title II firearms in the first place.

Theohazard
August 29, 2014, 04:58 PM
Yeah, maybe it's a regional thing or something, or maybe it's a term that's mostly used amongst gearhead types. That might explain why you don't remember hearing it.

1858
August 29, 2014, 05:07 PM
It's probably because I could never afford to buy a car until I moved to the US and my older relatives are/were well to do and never worked on their own cars. I did own a pistol though.

Theohazard
August 29, 2014, 05:07 PM
I will continue to refer to a device that only offers 20 to 40 dB of sound reduction as a suppressor
Yeah, "suppressor" is more technically correct and "silencer" is more historically and legally correct. Both are fine.

Arizona_Mike
August 29, 2014, 05:48 PM
The inventor called it a silencer. The restrictive law calls it a silencer.
And internet trolls insist on calling it a suppressor.

Internet trolls are always right.
http://www.outbackgunparts.com/Remington_541_581_5_rd._Magazine.jpg

Mike

Jim Watson
August 29, 2014, 05:54 PM
As for Maxim, he also invented the silencer for the combustion engine but I've never seen an exhaust muffler sold as a silencer.

The Maxim Silencer Company is still in business making "silencers" for engines and industrial equipment. Not for guns, though.

"MAXIMŽ SILENCERS
Maxim Silencers engineers and manufactures industrial grade silencers for noise control in the oil & gas industry, the power generation market, and other industries needing dependable, long-lasting silencers."

"Founded by Hiram Maxim over 100 years ago, Maxim has extensive experience in design and development of noise control devices."

jmorris
August 29, 2014, 06:57 PM
The term most used in the circles I run around in is "can"...

dogtown tom
August 29, 2014, 08:03 PM
Jim Watson .....You will pay several hundred bucks for the device, plus a $200 transfer tax and sextuplicate registration papers....
Nonsense.
It's one easy to complete form with less questions than a 4473.
And completed in duplicate, not "sextuplet".

Jim Watson
August 29, 2014, 11:31 PM
OK, I am out of date. Copiers are cheap so you don't have to do as many carbon copies.

Does that mean the feds get through them any sooner?

Ranb
August 30, 2014, 10:37 PM
Is a silencer the same thing as a suppressor?
Muffler and silencer are the terms used in the US code to describe a sound suppressor.

Is a silencer available for the Lc9S?
Any 9mm silencer should work fine if you can find a threaded barrel to attach it with. I don't know of anyne who makes a threaded barrel for this pistol though.

Is it legal to have a "silencer" on one's pistol?
Yes. Silencers are legal in all states but you must have a license in 13 of them. Where do you live? The rest either do not regulate them at all or require that they be registered with the BATFE. All legal silencers are registered anyway.

Does such a silencer effect the trajectory/accuracy of the weapon?
Yes and no. Most modern silencers are made with baffles which do not contact the bullet as it passes through so accuracy is not affected unless the silencer is misaligned. The added weight affect point of impact so the sights must be adjusted for anything but very short range.

A silencer is legal but with many restrictions. You will pay several hundred bucks for the device, plus a $200 transfer tax and sextuplicate registration papers and a lengthy wait to get permission from the government to pick it up.
Not that many. It must be registered and there are restrictions on repairs and parts replacement. It must be under the control of the owner(s) at all times; such as in hand or locked or with an authorized carrier (UPS, airlines)
The 22lr cans can be had for as low as $200 plus tax, and made for as little as $20. 9mm cans are more expensive though.
There is one registration form (in duplicate) with attached photos and fingerprint cards along with a single form 5330.20 attesting to your legal residence in the USA. Using a trust eliminates the mug shots and prints.
The wait is down to 3 weeks now. I got my last ATF e-form s approved in August in 3 weeks.

Does anybody have any experience with a suppressed M1 carbine?
I do, it sucks. I attached a high volume 300 whisper can to my Universal carbine and I get so much blowback from the chamber it moves my hair and I have to wear double eye protection to keep from tearing up.

Ranb

Theohazard
August 30, 2014, 10:58 PM
Silencers are legal in all states but you must have a license in 13 of them.
This is incorrect: Silencers are only legal for individual possession in 39 states. And I don't know of any states that require a specific license to own one, but I believe that CA and IA allow you to own silencers if you're a dealer with the proper FFL.

Ranb
September 1, 2014, 07:25 AM
dealer with the proper FFL.
That's the license I was talking about. Until recently FFL/SOT's in MN could not own them either. The police had to obtain them from out of state.

Ranb

Double Naught Spy
September 1, 2014, 11:43 AM
Yeah, "suppressor" is more technically correct and "silencer" is more historically and legally correct. Both are fine.

LOL, I think I would argue that what is technically correct is how it was patented as a "silencer," but semantically correct might be suppressor instead of silencer.

Theohazard
September 1, 2014, 01:36 PM
^^^ I meant "technically correct" in terms of more accurately describing what it does, but that's fine too. I actually prefer the term "silencer" for two reasons: One, that's what the inventor called it. And two, I get so tired of people who "correct" other people and claim, "It's not a silencer, it's a suppressor!" The people who say that are almost always gun owners who know absolutely nothing about silencers.

1858
September 2, 2014, 06:29 PM
Reading through this thread again and rondog's question ...

"Does anybody have any experience with a suppressed M1 carbine?

... got me thinking. Does anyone refer to a "silenced" rifle or pistol? People tend to say "I was shooting suppressed or it's a suppressed rifle". It's interesting that once you attach a silencer the firearm is now suppressed rather than silenced.

1858
September 2, 2014, 06:38 PM
From Gemtech's FAQ.

http://www.gem-tech.com/store/pc/viewContent.asp?idpage=7#11

Silencer or Suppressor? What's the difference?

The terms "silencer" and "suppressor" are both correct. Most people within the industry prefer the term "suppressor" because it is more technically correct in that a suppressor does not actually silence a firearm but suppresses the noise some amount. That said, the legal term as used by BATFE to classify these weapons is "silencer". You may also hear people refer to suppressors by the slang term "cans".

bangswitch
September 5, 2014, 10:15 PM
I am in the process of getting my CCP and purchasing a Ruger Lc9S. Is a silencer available for the Lc9S?

Like mentioned in several posts, you'd have to have a threaded barrel to attach the suppressor, and Ruger doesn't make one for the LC9. A gunsmith could custom make one easily enough, but personally, I think the LC9 is a poor platform for a suppressor (I own an LC9). It is designed as an easily concealable compact, pocket pistol, and adding a suppressor that is as long as the pistol is sort of counter to its purpose.

A good choice for a pistol to suppress would be the larger Ruger, the SR series, either the standard or the compact version. A Glock 17 or 19 would also be an excellent pistol. My cousin has a G19 that has a threaded barrel, and he has a suppressor for it. 9mm is subsonic in most loads with 115 grain bullets or larger in a pistol, it makes a good choice for suppressed shooting. A suppressed 9mm is quiet enough that at 10-15 feet, you can easily hear the slide cycle over the sound of the report.

The addition of a suppressor blocks your sight picture, so you have to learn a new way to aim it, more of a instinctive point that comes with practice.

bangswitch
September 5, 2014, 10:28 PM
Does anyone refer to a "silenced" rifle or pistol? People tend to say "I was shooting suppressed or it's a suppressed rifle". It's interesting that once you attach a silencer the firearm is now suppressed rather than silenced.

It's all a matter of terminology and what is the more accurate description. Unless the rifle is also shooting subsonic loads, you can't really quiet it down that much. The supersonic "crack" does not get attenuated with a suppressor, although the explosive report can be decreased 20-30 dB or so. With subs, you don't have the supersonic shock wave, so all the suppressor has to do is attenuate the explosion of the burning powder as the bullet leaves the muzzle. Again, a suppressed SBR shooting subs is quiet enough that the action cycling is as loud as the report from the muzzle at 10-15 feet, and the overall sound is much more non-directional than a non suppressed rifle shot, meaning that if you hear it in the distance, it's more difficult to localize exactly where the shot came from.

Theohazard
September 5, 2014, 10:28 PM
9mm is subsonic in most loads with 115 grain bullets or larger in a pistol
This is incorrect. 9mm 115 gr. loads are almost always supersonic. Even 124 gr. loads are usually supersonic. Most of the time you need to buy 147 gr. loads to be reliably subsonic. I only use 147 gr. loads when shooting my Glock 19 with my silencer, because any bullet weight lower than that is usually supersonic (unless I buy special under-powered subsonic loads designed for silencers, and those are usually pretty expensive).

The upside to a suppressed 9mm is that it will be quieter than a suppressed .45 if all other things are equal and both are subsonic. The downside to suppressed 9mm is that most 9mm loads are supersonic and it can often be hard to find subsonic loads, whereas almost all .45 ACP loads are subsonic.

bangswitch
September 6, 2014, 01:26 AM
I guess I just need to start using more factory loads. Most all my 115's are subs as I load them, and I'm usually in the middle to upper third of the powder range. There are a couple of loads I will use that go to 1250 fps or so, but most stay around 950-1100.

Theohazard
September 6, 2014, 02:24 AM
Yeah, my post was regarding factory ammo. I need to start reloading, then I can make my own subs like you do instead of having to buy 147 gr. factory ammo.

Theohazard
September 6, 2014, 05:29 AM
dealer with the proper FFL.
That's the license I was talking about.
Even if that's what you really meant (and I doubt it is, otherwise you would have said "FFL"), your following statement from post #23 is still incorrect:Silencers are legal in all states but you must have a license in 13 of them.

Tactical Lever
September 6, 2014, 05:47 AM
Can we get this to page 4 maybe on the "correct" term? ;)

I would call it either, as Maxim named it... And they would be controlled or regulated whether it was called a silencer or a hoopa pah loopa.

A silencer can completely silence, as long as a person does not get too nit picky, on what silenced means. When the firing pin dropping is the loudest sound heard, I would consider that silenced.

Of course the bigger the volume of gas exiting the barrel, the bigger the can will have to be to contain it. Just like the huge mufflers on the new high horsepower cars and trucks. A bit of an aside, but a V8 can be very quiet when the exhaust is run through a 45 gallon drum. Don't even need baffles.

If you want to run a can on an M1 carbine, you will want an adjustable gas block, as the pressure being directed through will be a fair bit more due to the back pressure/volume from the suppressor (You win that one, terminology Nazis! :cuss:).

You'll note that I referred to it as a suppressor there, as the bullet travels quite a bit faster than the speed of sound with a convential load. Possibly could run a heavier bullet like a 200 gr. roundnose to get subsonic, to quiet it down. Of course it will probably not open up very much at those speeds.

I was always intrigued with doing a big bore, as it would not seem like you are giving anything up. A .450 Bushmaster would be pretty neat with heavy bullets. Of course so would a 50 Beowulf, but unless you are casting, I don't believe there is many good sporting bullets for it.

Of course being a lever guy, a suppressed 45-70 is a natural fit. A 500 gr. (or so) flat nose at a little over 1000 fps still has a heck of a thump on the receiving end, no gas block to mess around with, and an exposed hammer eased back, is about as silent as you can get... Oh yeah! :cool: Low speed, high drag! No, wait....

Jim Watson
September 6, 2014, 07:31 AM
I recall the old account of a 1903 Springfield fitted with a Maxim Silencer (There was once a plan to issue them at the rate of two per squad.) being fired on a long range with a row of telegraph poles down one side. The loudest thing was the reflection of the supersonic crack from the poles, it was said to sound like a machine gun burst.

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