Sawed off shotgun?

[Woodchuck]

Is it legal or not, to shorten a barrel on a Shotgun to 19 inches? If it is legal, exactly where are the measurements taken? From the back of the chamber or the front?

[Kahr carrier]

Yep its legal,I believe the minimum is 18-1/2 inchs.

[Ewok_Guy]

18 1/2" minimum length measured from the start of the chamber.

[Mr Jody Hudson]

The below is true to the best of my knowledge and experience:

The way the ATF measures; is with a stick stuck down the barrel when the action is closed. Although the law says the barrel may not be shorter than 18"; the custom is to make it 18.5".

The Randy Weaver murders were based, reportedly, on a gun that had been sawed to exactly 18" but when the stick was put into the barrel it went a fraction of an inch deeper to touch the retracted firing pin in the chamber. So they killed his wife, dog, etc. At least that is what the reports have been.

Keep it to 18 and a half inches measured with a stick down the tube when action is closed. By the way, the difference between shot spread in a tube 20 inches or 18 inches is undetectable. In addition most shot shells now are loaded or reloaded with a shot cup and the cup contains the shot out to at least 15 feet from the barrel.

Since I did the testing on all the different types of home defense and hunting loads I use; I have opted for longer barrels and longer magazine tubes on my shotguns. We had some old shot shells that were about 40 years old, in good condition, and we compared them in three guns we had with 18.5”, 22” and 30” barrels.

There was little difference, immeasurable, in fact between the two shorter barrels out to about 40 feet and not that much difference in the 30” barrel at 40 feet. We were surprised. The old shells were old Remington with star crimp. In fact we decided that any difference in spread was a result of the far rounder shot in new shells compared to the fairly irregular shot in the older shells; there was a remarkable difference in that modern shot was glossy and perfectly round looking and the old shot was irregular and rough looking on the surface with one or more little dimples or pimples that were visible to the naked eye.

According to one of the Old West re-enactors; he told me that the origin of the old stagecoach guns extra-short barrels was to be able to spin around easier AND that they loaded them with dimes which, because they were flat, would make a big, huge, spread.

[Tropical Z]

Unless things have changed,you could go shorter and register it as a AOW.Who knows what the current regs are at the Seig Heil ATF!:cuss:

[foghornl]

Woodchuck...

When I wanted a short (read home defense) barrel for my Maverick/Mossberg, I bought the shortest one they had for sale 18.5". That way, I have NO hassles about length, and no worries about rough cuts.

[JohnBT]

Mr Jody Hudson,

I don't think they just put the stick in the barrel, took the measurement, said oh-oh and shot the dog. I believe there were a few other things that happened in the meantime according to the versions I've heard. The entire story is a bit longer than you've made it out to be.

John

[Hkmp5sd]

Unless things have changed,you could go shorter and register it as a AOW.Who knows what the current regs are at the Seig Heil ATF!

Actually, maybe. Depending on it's configuration, you may have to register it as a SBS.

Don't forget that the shotgun must also meet the minimum overall length of 26".

[alkiburki]

Mr Jody Hudson is correct about the method to measure barrel length. Close the action, insert a rod down the bore until it reaches bottom, mark and measure rod. In other words, barrel length by BATF standards includes the chamber. 16" is minimal for rifles, 18" for shotguns. Some add a quarter inch over minimums to be safe, I prefer the extra half inch myself.

Hkmp5sd is correct about minimum overall length.

[labgrade]

FWIW

Assuming same choke & shells/load used, doubtful there will be any advantage of having a short-barreled except for it's quickness in pointing.

Spread's a function of choke & load. Velocity in the shorties might be very similar to a 24-26"er. Variation in shot-to-shot's well within SD of the loads themselves.

That said, I do like my 18-1/2 & 21" for all 'round stuff 'n things.

[dfariswheel]

I read something about Weaver's lawyer, Jerry Spence.

Spence argued to the jury that all the Ruby Ridge events occured over 3/8" of cheap wood.

Apparently Weaver cut the barrels to 18", but he cut the wood stocks off 3/8" too short. When the stocks were assembled, the guns were 3/8" shorter than the legal 26 1/2" requied by federal law.

It was a major revelation to the jury, that 3 people died for a few cents of wood.

[GAMALOT]

Great info here and interesting enough to make me do some measuring!
Many years ago I purchased an old double 12 Coach gun for HD.
I have always wondered if it was legal length and if it ever really was a coach gun or just a sawed off double that looks good.
It is marked MR. Davis & Sons, AJAX, Davis Warner arms corp. Norwich,CONN.
Rod in barrel measures 18.5" and OAL is 34.5". I think it is original because it has a bead about a half inch back from end of barrel that appears to be correct and gap between barrels and sight ramp appears to be filled with lead or some soft metal. Any info would be appreciated but for now I have learned I can turn it out of the closet and it meets length requirements. Thanks

[Sir Galahad]

Uh, I think the story about loading shotguns with dimes came from "Young Guns" or "Young Guns 2". I recently read an estimate that the monetary equivalent from loading a 1870-1880 era shotgun with dimes would be akin to spending close to $10 to $20 when pulling the trigger in today's value. Let's see for ourselves, though. One of the highest paid blue-collar workers in the West was a hardrock miner at $3 to $4 a day. Now, if you put just five dimes down each barrel, that's $1 a shot. Or, 1/3 to 1/4 of a days works wages. If the average blue collar worker today earns about $10 to $14 an hour, for an 8 hour day, he earns $80 to $112 a day gross before Uncle Scam gets a hold of it. So, 1/3 to 1/4 of that would be roughly between $20 to $37 dollars. That's a helluva expensive hot load! Technically, todays dimes wouldn't fly so well because they're too light. But 1800s dimes MIGHT because they were silver and, hence, heavier than the alloy dimes of today. Except that even so, flat dimes would be more apt to fly wild due to their flat surface. The wouldn't fly flat like a frisbee but would be at all angles upon exiting the bore. And, so, their flight patterns would vary from dime to dime coming out of the bore. A regular lawman of 1870 was usually paid about $10 a week plus meals, by the way. The dimes might have been used once during an Apache attack on an isolated stage station when the defenders had muzzleloading shotguns and ran out of shotgun shot and pistol balls (because a '51 Navy--a popular handgun--was .36 caliber and, thusly, basically used 000 buckshot) which they'd have sed the pistol balls before dimes. But if they ran out of shot and balls, they might have used dimes or even cut pieces of larger coins. Probably anything they could fit down the bore that was metallic. And, if so, this may have carried over into legend or story. But given the value of money, it probably was not very common but rather an emergency last-ditch thing to do and then with a muzzleloader only. It wouldn't have made sense to empty perfectly good buckshot out of a cartridge and then load your beer, tobacco, and card playin' money into them.

[Mr Jody Hudson]

I agree with your financial analysis of the dimes situation. The theory, as I was told it, was similar to some of our premium loadings. That is, these loads were not meant to be used except in extreeeeme emergencies and otherwise were just carried. It seems the silver bullet idea was the same, a specialized bullet used for emergency life saving situations.

We have all manner of Glasers, BAT bullets, The "Exploding Bullets" of the 70s, MagSafes, Cookie Cutters, and now such things as Depleted Uranium. At one time, there were aluminum bullets and some say the Silver Tip was once an aluminum bullet.

I too have opted for some of these expensive rounds myself; such as the "magnum" fletchettes in 12 ga and my box of 1.5 oz. 1400 fps white phosphourous 12 ga. in full height brass cases. None of them as expensive as the shell full of dimes would have been back then; but still ridiculously expensive in my opinion. :banghead:

[dfariswheel]

The dime shotgun load was used in more recent times too.
Jeff Cooper once recommended it for house guns. He said his would "clear a hall-way very throughly".

There are reports from some Vietnam Special Forces who used it because of the belief that the dimes would cut through brush better than buckshot.

One SEAL said this was known as "Keep the change Charlie".

[Sir Galahad]

I have doubts about ANY load or cartridge "bucking" brush. Limbs and brush can deflect a wide variety of bullets. Dimes ceased to be made of silver after 1964. After 1964, they are made of alloy much lighter than silver. Silver is almost as heavy as lead. It often occurs with lead in deposits. Light, alloy dimes would ricochet more readily off of a tree branch than a round lead pellet. The people who lay claim to the dime cutting through brush make a broad assumption that the dime is spinning like a saw blade and not cartwheeling end over end. I would have to see the actual reports myself before I would believe it was used.

Cooper might have advocated dimes, but he could probably afford the lawyer to save him if he shot an intruder with the load. One thing not wise is to make up a load a lawyer could use against you in a court of law. "He loaded those dimes to cause ghastly wounds, your honor, well beyond reasonable self-defense since they are not sold loaded with dimes commonly!" I wouldn't trust my life to what is truly an unproven load, either. There is no ballistic data of value that says this load is effective.

[Dave McCracken]

The dime loads are more myth than reality, either in the Old West of yesteryear or the late unpleasantness of South East Asia.In any case,I do not recommend using them for anything.

Gamalot, your double sounds like a Crescent, but ask this down on Harley's forum. Those guys can tel you what day of the week it was made,where and by whom.

A caveat, ALL old guns should be checked out by a competent gunsmith before firing. And, chances are you have a shotgun with 2 1/2" chambers. Using current ammo in short chambers is neither safe nor fun.

HTH...

[Cruiser]

".The Randy Weaver murders were based, reportedly, on a gun that had been sawed to exactly 18" but when the stick was put into the barrel it went a fraction of an inch deeper to touch the retracted firing pin in the chamber. So they killed his wife, dog, etc. At least that is what the reports have been. "


No matter what your (or my) personal views on the ATF, U.S. Marshals or other federal agencies may be, the simple fact is that Randy Weaver caused all his problems himself.

He ignored a summons to go to court and clear up the matter (at trial after the standoff, he was acquited of the weapons violation charges). He also ignored the subsequent warrant which issued because of his initial failure to deal with his problems. Had he gone to court like a man in the first place, he would've been acquited and walked away a free man. Then the Marshals would've had no reason to be anywhere near Ruby Ridge

[Badger Arms]

No matter what your (or my) personal views on the ATF, U.S. Marshals or other federal agencies may be, the simple fact is that Randy Weaver caused all his problems himself.

Cruiser: What planet are you posting from? Is the penalty for failing to show up a month earlier than your court summons punishable by the death of your wife, your son, and your dog? I so rarely flame that I'll get it all out of my system. Randy Weaver was set-up and hunted because he failed to snitch people out... people he didn't necessarilly like in the neo-Nazi underworld. He was a die-hard Christian and a family man first. He was a bit of a zealout, but never caused harm to anybody. In fact, he was given a court date that he COULDN'T have made because that date was not relayed to him. They told him a different date than he was actually given. When they submitted an additional charge of failing to appear for a charge he was entrapped into, he had every reason in the world to believe that he was being wronged.

If you are saying that 1/8 of an inch and one typo are grounds to murder (yes Horiuchi murdered) a mother while she HELD HER INFANT CHILD IN HER ARMS and shoot a 14-year-old kid in the back, then you are sorely mistaken. :cuss:

Defend your position? You are saying that even after he was entrapped, even after the court sent him the wrong court date, Randy Weaver was responsible for the death of his wife, his son, and his dog? For the shooting of himself and his friend? RANDY WEAVER? What is your thought process on this one? Am I the only one pissed off about this one?

[Sir Galahad]

A point I'd like to interject, if I may. It would appear to me that an "illegal" shotgun whether it actually was or not is still not a chemical or biological weapon. Leave it to al Quiada to put our government's priorities in order. Of course, the government readily admits they cannot protect us from a chem-bio-nuke attack. But they can sure protect us from a hermit with a possible "sawed-off" shotgun who never shot anyone!!!:rolleyes:

[HS/LD]

Badger Arms is right about Weaver.


The ATF FBI and the rest of the alphabet squad should have been hung out to dry for this travesty.

Horiuchi should have been tried for murder, convicted and executed. :fire:

Have a nice night!

Regards,

HS/LD

[Bainx]

Even my congressman, in his latest newsletter, is scorning the Fed. agencies for their poor judgement of the entire situation.

[Cruiser]

First of all, I know the feds were trying to pressure Weaver into snitching on other folks/groups. Not doing that is about the only thing I respect about him. Even flakes can believe in God, and he was a loser and a flake. His professed religious beliefs have nothing to do with his behavior in this incident. His behavior was consistent with that of many losers who try to skate through the legal system without having to answer for what they're accused of. The fact he was later acquited of the original weapons charges makes him that much more pathetic.

Much of what Weaver claims is just propaganda to gain support. While clerical mistakes occur all the time, he was never just "told" the wrong date for a court appearance. These things are always in writing, and that's one of the things attorneys are for- ironing out things like scheduling problems. Even if he received incorrect info, those sort of things occur all the time in our overloaded judicial system and are rarely part of some governmental plot to murder honest citizens. Again, it could've/should've been handled easily by his attorney. Why wasn't it?

As far as the actual law enforcement decisions made on the ground at Ruby Ridge, there is no doubt that errors were made. Some were relatively minor errors in judgement or tactics by individual agents which were compounded by other errors. Some were major proceedural errors by supervisors. One thing is certain about all attempts at Monday morning quarterbacking- things look much different with time and distance than they do on the ground at the moment events are playing out.

The 14 year old kid shot in the back had just shot two U.S. Marshalls. Mrs. Weaver was hit by a bullet which was aimed at (and hit) Mr. Harris after he pointed a rifle at police helicopters. Mrs. Weaver was holding the door open for him as he ran towards the house. The bullet passed through Harris, through the door she was holding open, and struck her. Apparently she was raised differently than me, but if my friend was waving a gun at the police, I don't think I'd stand anywhere near him, especially while I was holding my infant child.

I'm not angry and respect Mr Jody Hudson & Badger Arms' opinions on this matter. I do feel strongly about Mr. Weaver in particular and personal accountability in general. I still feel he made his own bed. There are many more points I'd like to make to defend my position, but I really don't want to argue with folks over something like this. I don't feel the feds are blameless, but I think that's more at the organizational/administrative level than with the individual agents. Serious mistakes were made on both sides.

[Blain]

I guess what I don't understand is why a rifle can have a 16" barrel but a shotgun must be 18"??????

[Badger Arms]

The 14 year old kid shot in the back had just shot two U.S. Marshalls. Mrs. Weaver was hit by a bullet which was aimed at (and hit) Mr. Harris after he pointed a rifle at police helicopters. Mrs. Weaver was holding the door open for him as he ran towards the house. The bullet passed through Harris, through the door she was holding open, and struck her. Apparently she was raised differently than me, but if my friend was waving a gun at the police, I don't think I'd stand anywhere near him, especially while I was holding my infant child.Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have read reports of the seige. IIRC, Harris had shot the agents AFTER they shot the dog. Weaver's kid ran away without firing a shot and was shot when the agents returned fire. This wasn't a minor procedural error, this was murder.

As far as Mrs. Weaver getting murdered, Horiuchi shot at Randy Weaver, not at Harris according to his statement. The "MAGIC BULLET" hit Weaver in the arm and then just happened to also hit his wife in the head. Horiuchi did not have the right to shoot either Weaver or shoot his gun at all. Wearing a badge does not give one the right to kill anybody they please.

I hold Randy Weaver accountable for not showing up to his second court date. What's that, a Gross Misdemeanor. Give him probation or kill his wife, son, and dog. Hmmmm, which of these is the better choice? The fact is that mistakes and errors were not made. These were intentional choices that the FBI and BATF made with the intent to PUNISH Weaver for not caving in to their extortion. They intended to set an example that when the FBI and BATF want to do something, they will do it. Nothing will stand in their way, not even the Constitution. Whoops, we screwed up! That doesn't cut it. Weaver committed a misdemeanor and the Government committed numerous felonies in the execution of their vendetta.

[Kharn]

Badger: Weaver couldnt show up on the correct date, the court put the wrong month on his summons, IIRC. The hearing was in January, but the summons said February...

Kharn

[CleverNickname]

I guess what I don't understand is why a rifle can have a 16" barrel but a shotgun must be 18"??????

Your mistake is trying to introduce find some logic in federal firearms laws, where there is none. :D

[Badger Arms]

Kharn said:Badger: Weaver couldnt show up on the correct date, the court put the wrong month on his summons, IIRC. The hearing was in January, but the summons said February...Yeah, I said this here:I hold Randy Weaver accountable for not showing up to his second court date. What's that, a Gross Misdemeanor. Give him probation or kill his wife, son, and dog. Hmmmm, which of these is the better choice?... and here:Is the penalty for failing to show up a month earlier than your court summons punishable by the death of your wife, your son, and your dog?I realize that I was being a bit cryptic in saying it, but I did understand. IIRC, the month was mis-stated in his summons to say January instead of February. He only found this out when he was informed that he had missed his court date. He was obviously pissed off that he had missed a date that hadn't even happened yet according to his summons. My feeling is that this was intentional and meant to entrap Weaver as they had already entrapped him on the trumpped-up weapons charge.

[Matthew Courtney]

We cannot know others unexpressed intent. We do know that before Mr. Weaver missed the court date of which he had notice, he had cause to believe that that court date was erroneous. I have been involved in numerous criminal and civil cases and can state, from experience, that at least 20% of the time notices are in conflict with either what was said in open court, or other notices. Add to that the fact that 80% of hearing dates are routinely continued at the last minute and I find myself calling the judge the day before or morning of any appearance date in order to avoid wasting my time.

The Feds entrapped Mr. Weaver for the sole purpose of turning him into an informant. Enraged by his independent streak, they set out to teach him a lesson.

I share few,if any, political beliefs with Randy Weaver. But I too, have an independent streak.

What the Federal Agents did in Weaver's case was not law enforcement, it was a misguided effort to show people that they need to disregard the law and their pesonal integrity in order to subject persons with whom the establishment disagrees to government surveillence.

Mr. Weaver did things with his own interests in mind. Although Lon Hirouchi essentailly got away with murder, there has been a substantial change in the law. Federal LEO's are now subject to state prosecutions for illegal acts. This is good. If the law does not apply to everyone it is not really the law.

[Dave McCracken]

Guys, how about taking this off BB? This is more for General Discussion or Legal than scatterguns...