Does 9x18 have a future?


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HP-Sauce
August 29, 2014, 09:47 PM
I have been wanting to get a Makarov PM and CZ82 for sometime now, however having to stock 9x18 cartridges have put me off so far. I don't own many guns and the ones I do I run them whenever I have a chance.

My inventory consist of several 9mm Luger and 1 .380ACP, and having to stock 9x18 is going to be a pain. Also recently the supply for 9x18 seems to be more difficult and the recent trade embargoes agains Russia seems be to bad news for cheap 9x18 too.

I know both the PM and CZ82 has .380 conversion possibility, but I don't see the point in that given there will not likely be any cost savings as .380 are getting more expensive and hard to find.

From what I can understand no new firearms are made in 9x18. So is there a future in 9x18? Are CZ's and PM relegated to the C&R realm?

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Luger_carbine
August 29, 2014, 09:51 PM
A: No

MikeJackmin
August 29, 2014, 10:19 PM
The CZ83 is a CZ82 chambered for .380 right out of the box.

I don't think you'll see any new guns chambered for 9x18, but there are millions of guns out there which are chambered for this round, and which are not going away any time soon either.

viking499
August 29, 2014, 11:00 PM
No, but it had a good past.

.455_Hunter
August 29, 2014, 11:22 PM
How many new production guns are made in .32 S&W Long, yet you can by ammo from at least six makers (Fed, Rem, Win, S&B, Magtech and PPU) without difficulty. This was true even before the .327 Mag has its flourish of activity.

MAKster
August 29, 2014, 11:42 PM
The short answer is the 9mm Makarov has no future as far as new pistols being produced. But the PMs were used for 50 years so there must be millions in circulation. The Russian and Eastern European ammo companies will still be making the ammo for a long time so I wouldn't worry about finding ammo.

Gun Master
August 29, 2014, 11:51 PM
There are several inexpensive 9x18's out there in Military Surplus Land. Won't cost much if you jump in. No new guns made with that mm, that I know of, but will be around for a long time.

Suggestion, shoot a CZ-82, and you'll be hooked ! :D

MCgunner
August 30, 2014, 12:07 AM
I kinda like the fact that I can trim 9x19 brass down, load a 110 grain cast round nose. The case fire forms on the first loading, head size is identical, just no taper. It's a pain to trim 50 cases, though, so I mostly shoot steel cased cheap stuff I used to pick up at Academy, but haven't looked for it in a while.

My pistol is a P64. I'd like to get a CZ82, maybe a Hungarian PA63, too. These things are cheap, reliable, great collectors/shooters. I don't carry mine. I have carried it, but I have better carry guns. If you don't buy one now, you might not be able to in 15-20 years. Me, I'll be lucky to last another 15-20 years, just sayin'.

gripper
August 30, 2014, 03:17 PM
It would be nice for someone- besides Privi Partisan- to mass produce affordable quality ammo- loaded on the warmish side- and keep it rolling. I always preferred it over the .380. But then, I like the Eastern Bloc oddballs.

morcey2
August 30, 2014, 03:24 PM
As long as anyone produces 0.365"-0.366" bullets, in the 90-110gr weight, 9x18 will be around. Even if cases aren't produced, they're easily made from 9x19. Casting is always an option.

I've got a CZ-82 as my EDC gun and I love it. It's extremely accurate with everything I've put through it and eats everything without a hiccup.

Matt

il.bill
August 30, 2014, 05:24 PM
Yes

New pistols chambered in 9x18mm Makarov - probably not.

For me - Absolutely!

I am in my early 60's and I suspect that supplies of 9x18mm Makarov will outlast me. You can buy it today online for less than .30 per round delivered (I just checked on Gunbot). Eastern European countries will want to be exporting something for cash, and with the countless pistols chambered for that cartridge, it has been easier to find significant quantities of it than 9mm Luger (at least for me).

Perhaps I am just whistling in the dark, but my CZ82's, my Makarov, and my P64 sure hope it has a future.

nathan
August 30, 2014, 07:40 PM
The ammo is getting pricey almost the price of .40 SW . But i love my Russian commercial makarov. It shoot s really tight groups . It s my EDC.

Hurryin' Hoosier
August 30, 2014, 09:18 PM
The CZ82 is definitely the Cadillac of 9x18s. And the best ammo I've found is either Sellier & Bellot or Fiocchi. Prvi Partizan seems to be quite a bit dirtier. And I sure don't want any more of the Russkie stuff!

Gun Master
August 30, 2014, 10:44 PM
Yes

New pistols chambered in 9x18mm Makarov - probably not.

For me - Absolutely!

I am in my early 60's and I suspect that supplies of 9x18mm Makarov will outlast me. You can buy it today online for less than .30 per round delivered (I just checked on Gunbot). Eastern European countries will want to be exporting something for cash, and with the countless pistols chambered for that cartridge, it has been easier to find significant quantities of it than 9mm Luger (at least for me).

Perhaps I am just whistling in the dark, but my CZ82's, my Makarov, and my P64 sure hope it has a future.

I got my P-64 and CZ-82 on the last MilSurp / C&R wave (along with my Mosin-Nagant 91/30 & 1895 Nagants (2) ), before they became scarce and more expensive. I'm pleased with the two 9x18's I have.

The original Makarov was not as easily available by then, and haven't gotten one yet.

leadcounsel
August 30, 2014, 10:52 PM
It's a shame that the 9x18 is a dinosaur moving into extinction (meaning no new guns chambered for it).

Same with the 7.62x25.

Both are excellent and should have a future. But let's stay on track.

The 9x18 could easily replay the .380 as offering remarkably more power in a marginally larger package. But then again, the leap to 9x19 is minor but results in even greater performance.

If I were making guns, I'd chamber in 9x18 instead of .380. Revive that caliber.

C0untZer0
August 30, 2014, 11:16 PM
This reminds of that thread calling for a new 35 caliber round that is hotter than the 380 ACP:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=751217&highlight=380+acp

I think the market is settling on 380 and 9mm.

Schlegel
August 31, 2014, 12:10 AM
I wouldn't worry about it. I can still buy commercial 30-40 krag. How long has it been since that round was in service?

rondog
August 31, 2014, 12:28 AM
I have a PA-63, and I offer this - that pistol seems to have a reputation for breaking the ejector, and they're very hard to find. Mine broke, and it took me months to find one. Just an FYI.

Gun Master
August 31, 2014, 09:48 AM
It's a shame that the 9x18 is a dinosaur moving into extinction (meaning no new guns chambered for it).

Same with the 7.62x25.

Both are excellent and should have a future. But let's stay on track.

The 9x18 could easily replay the .380 as offering remarkably more power in a marginally larger package. But then again, the leap to 9x19 is minor but results in even greater performance.

If I were making guns, I'd chamber in 9x18 instead of .380. Revive that caliber.

I'm with you all the way !

Let's keep 9x18 going. It just make sense to choose it over .380 (more powerful, etc.). Make new guns chambered in both.

Also, good engineers and machinist could figure out adapters so guns (new & old) could shoot both.:)

il.bill
August 31, 2014, 12:51 PM
...
The original Makarov was not as easily available by then, and haven't gotten one yet.

My recently purchased Makarov is a commercial Baikal IJ-70 with adjustable rear sight, not a mil-surp. It is nevertheless simple and rugged, and shoots nearly as well as my CZ82's. These pistols eat up all the cheap, imported steel cased rounds I can feed them. I now have the 9x18mm dies, so with some Makarov bullets and 9x19mm Luger brass trimmed to length, the future of the cartridge looks positive to me.

il.bill
August 31, 2014, 12:56 PM
... good engineers and machinist could figure out adapters so guns (new & old) could shoot both.:)

I wish - but would not the different diameter of the bullet make that difficult, if not impossible, with fixed barrels that cannot just be swapped out? Then again, maybe an easily swapped barrel for something like a Beretta 84 might be workable ...

il.bill
August 31, 2014, 01:01 PM
Come to think of it, I once successfully fired a .380 ACP cartridge in a 9x18mm CZ82. http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=63176.msg421018#msg421018

Gun Master
August 31, 2014, 08:14 PM
I wish - but would not the different diameter of the bullet make that difficult, if not impossible, with fixed barrels that cannot just be swapped out? Then again, maybe an easily swapped barrel for something like a Beretta 84 might be workable ...

Bullet diameter is "essentially" the same (9mm). The .380 (9x17) is .355 inches, and 9x18mm Mak is .365 inches. It is the case length that is longer.

Shooting 9x17mm in a 9x18mm chamber is only one mm difference. I'm sure you'd be able to shoot .380 (9x17mm) ammo in a 9x18mm gun (i.e. CZ-82, etc.), but I don't know how long you could do so safely. Eventually the small gap would cause head space problems.

I was thinking about a permanent or removable (temporary) insert in the chamber at the rear of the barrel, to take up the one mm gap. This would rule out a "drop in barrel" in a "fixed" (permanently attached to receiver) barrel, such as the CZ-82.

Any and all opinions and/or experiences are appreciated.:)

gripper
August 31, 2014, 08:19 PM
Wouldn't the .363 diameter of the 9x18 mm preclude a simple chamber insert? Fixed barrels CAN be swapped out- not casually, but there used to be a barrel- press tool made by Federal Arms that actually was doable...
I wonder if a true convertible ( not a fixed barrel) original design- maybe with a locked breech- could open up the possibilities?? Call it " Amerinkansy Stetchkinova".:cool:

Gun Master
August 31, 2014, 08:22 PM
Come to think of it, I once successfully fired a .380 ACP cartridge in a 9x18mm CZ82. http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=63176.msg421018#msg421018

I'm amazed, not that you were able to shoot .380ACP ammo in a CZ-82, but you did so with a .380 mag from a different gun (the Beretta 84)!:confused:

gripper
August 31, 2014, 08:37 PM
I'm thinking .380 in a 9x18 barrel is POSSIBLE, just not " optimal"... An emergency expedient, MAYBE... Not accurate, reliable or as powerful... Probably have feeding & extraction issues.
The other way around?? Bad juju to jam a too long case with a slightly wider diameter bullet ...best to buy two guns, conversion kits& tools or to come up with a new design like I suggested... I could theoretically see a mid sized , locked breech multi caliber& barrel pistol as workable... Definitely. 380 & 9x18 would be doable. Maybe 9x19 and other calibers..depends on size, lockwork, complexity of design vs simplicity.
Maybe a slightly enlarged ( compared to a Makarov PM _ CZ82 with a locked breech, or even a Glock.

rule303
August 31, 2014, 09:03 PM
I don't see the 9x18 disappearing anytime soon. I doubt we will ever see a new commercial pistol built for it in the US, but who knows. The .380 was all but dead 10 years ago too.

Jim K
August 31, 2014, 10:17 PM
I don't think either 9x18 has a future. The Makarov is only made today because of the large number of ex-Eastbloc pistols dumped on the world market in the last few years. When those are absorbed into non-shooting collections or lost in one way or another, the ammo will gradually disappear. (For precedent, look at the .41 Swiss, which was made in large numbers here and elsewhere when the rifles were sold on the surplus market, then faded away.)

As to the 9x18 Ultra (9x18 Police), AFAIK, only Fiocchi makes it. RWS-GECO did, but it is not on their current list.

Jim

Luger_carbine
August 31, 2014, 10:43 PM
9 x 18 ammo is only made today because the ex-Eastbloc countries dumped their huge pistol stocks for cash.

For people who are actually shooting the Makarov, their pistols will eventually break.

Anyone who is carrying them for SD will stop carrying them when it takes them months to repair a breakage.

The guns are not being made any longer so the existing stock will eventually disappear.

When people stop shooting the guns, the ammo manufacturers stop making the ammo.

The answer is so simple, this is almost a rhetorical question.

I don't see where the debate is, wishful thinking aside, the 9 x 18 has no future.

Gun Master
August 31, 2014, 11:04 PM
It's future could be anywhere between Neo-Soviet Bloc Revival, to antiquical obscurity, and all points in between. It "does" have a future, positive or negative.
Does anybody know the future ? If so, I need some advise on .22LR ammo and other investments.
Nobody "knows" the future. One can only speculate.

I, for one, "hope" it is a positive future, that will last many years.

The 9x18 round is a powerful choice between .380ACP and 9mm Luger, IMHO.:)

HorseSoldier
September 1, 2014, 04:37 AM
Way things are going in the Ukraine these days, it's future may be as the round of choice for scavengers in the nuclear wasteland between the Urals and Polish border . . .

lincen
September 1, 2014, 09:22 AM
We do not know the future but one comment above made me respond to this thread. Several handguns that fire the 9x18 round are rather difficult to find spare parts for. The original PM or Soviet Makarov has ALL parts, except the frame and slide, available right now in large numbers at reasonable prices. To my limited knowledge there is no other small handgun from any country with all of its parts so available. Also these parts will work in the Makarovs produced in East Germany, China, and Bulgaria. I'll admit I'm partial to the 9x18 round but the availability of spare parts did factor in to my reasoning. I have even assembled a Makarov with parts from all four countries and it shoots great.

I do doubt that we will ever see new handguns designed for this round.

Gun Master
September 1, 2014, 04:57 PM
I currently have one each P-64 and CZ-82, chambered in 9x18mm.
This is sufficient to my needs, in that mm, at present. Noting two ends of the spectrum regarding size.
Should the 9x18 ammo become unavailable, I likely would gravitate toward the small to medium 9mm Luger chambered pistols.
I don't know the future of 9x18mm, but I do know my ultimate future. Do you? ><> :)

shootr
September 1, 2014, 10:57 PM
What gun master said. Does it matter if new guns are being made in the caliber when so many are out there, parts are in abundance and manufacturers produce ammo? IMO, it's future will be longer than most of ours.

Were I wanting a PM, I'd get one without reservation or regret.

Gun Master
September 2, 2014, 07:43 PM
This is pure conjecture and speculation mind you.

I believe the most likely analogy in recent history, in potential "destiny" of 9x18mm ammo, could simulate that of the 9x23mm Largo (Bergman-Bayard). It started almost at the at the beginning of the 20th Century, with "a big bang". The 9mm Largo had some similarities to the .38ACP Super, which I do not plan to discuss at this time.
The Largo was first chambered for the Bergman Mars Pistol, and later for several pistols and even submachine guns. Luger 9mm Parabellum proved to be a more popular and efficient round.

Although several companies produced 9mm Largo pistols, the two main manufacturers, Star and Astra, are now defunct. No modern pistols are currently made in this chambering. Collectors and shooters are dependent on old surplus ammo, most being corrosive.

I own an Astra Model 400 (1921), and I scrounge a few rounds every now and then. :)

Snowdog
September 2, 2014, 10:40 PM
Allow me to be the voice of dissent and go against the grain here.
Let me start by saying that I like the 9x18. I love my P64 and Cz82 and have put many rounds through both. I have enjoyed my experiences with the 9x18.

Unfortunately, I do not believe the 9x18 has a future as far as modern designs.
Why? Let's be real here, what does it offer? Typically 94 grains at 1000 FPS. 50 years ago, that was considered the most you could squeeze from a simple blowback without adding noticeable mass to the slide. That was quite a while ago.

Nations who have switched from the 9x18 to 9x19 aren't switching back. Likewise, there is little to no drive for a new commercial pistol in 9x18 and for good reason. Being a pragmatist, I don't see any reason for anything new in 9x18 as the .380acp (9x17) will do anything the 9x18 will, especially given the offerings from Buffalo Bore, Underwood, Doubletap, et al.

In addition, we are seeing many micro 9mm (9x19) pistols today that are smaller and far more powerful than similar sized pistols in 9x18 all while being more comfortable to shoot. With the exception of price, I don't see any advantage of a small blowback over a locking breech chambered for the same round. Is a fixed barrel blowback inherently more accurate or reliable over a locked breech design of equal size? Perhaps. Enough to market as a real advantage over locked breech designs? I sincerely doubt it.

Again, I like the 9x18 just as I like the 7.62x25. However, just as the 7.62x25, I don't see it being incorporated into any future designs. This is not to say there will exist any supply crisis in the near future or ammunition manufactures ignoring the 9x18 market.
If you fancy a pistol in 9x18 such as the excellent Cz82 or P64, by all means buy it! If you hope to see a future P238 or Colt Mustang in chambered 9x18, don't hold your breath.

WestKentucky
September 2, 2014, 11:18 PM
Their is always a market for "something different". 9mm mak is that something to a lot of people. True great calibers come and go each year with little or no fanfare but this one has too strong of a footprint to vanish into antiquity soon. Are it's days numbered? Absolutely so, but all things have an eventual expiration date. The mak will be around for decades to come. It may get more expensive and be cost prohibitive to shoot but those years are far away. Many other rounds will die first.

Gun Master
September 2, 2014, 11:32 PM
Allow me to be the voice of dissent and go against the grain here.
Let me start by saying that I like the 9x18. I love my P64 and Cz82 and have put many rounds through both. I have enjoyed my experiences with the 9x18.

Unfortunately, I do not believe the 9x18 has a future as far as modern designs.
Why? Let's be real here, what does it offer? Typically 94 grains at 1000 FPS. 50 years ago, that was considered the most you could squeeze from a simple blowback without adding noticeable mass to the slide. That was quite a while ago.

Nations who have switched from the 9x18 to 9x19 aren't switching back. Likewise, there is little to no drive for a new commercial pistol in 9x18 and for good reason. Being a pragmatist, I don't see any reason for anything new in 9x18 as the .380acp (9x17) will do anything the 9x18 will, especially given the offerings from Buffalo Bore, Underwood, Doubletap, et al.

In addition, we are seeing many micro 9mm (9x19) pistols today that are smaller and far more powerful than similar sized pistols in 9x18 all while being more comfortable to shoot. With the exception of price, I don't see any advantage of a small blowback over a locking breech chambered for the same round. Is a fixed barrel blowback inherently more accurate or reliable over a locked breech design of equal size? Perhaps. Enough to market as a real advantage over locked breech designs? I sincerely doubt it.

Again, I like the 9x18 just as I like the 7.62x25. However, just as the 7.62x25, I don't see it being incorporated into any future designs. This is not to say there will exist any supply crisis in the near future or ammunition manufactures ignoring the 9x18 market.
If you fancy a pistol in 9x18 such as the excellent Cz82 or P64, by all means buy it! If you hope to see a future P238 or Colt Mustang in chambered 9x18, don't hold your breath.
Agreed.

Gun Master
September 2, 2014, 11:33 PM
Their is always a market for "something different". 9mm mak is that something to a lot of people. True great calibers come and go each year with little or no fanfare but this one has too strong of a footprint to vanish into antiquity soon. Are it's days numbered? Absolutely so, but all things have an eventual expiration date. The mak will be around for decades to come. It may get more expensive and be cost prohibitive to shoot but those years are far away. Many other rounds will die first.
Agreed.

lincen
September 3, 2014, 08:42 AM
I also agree with the above three or so posts. All I would add is that those who like to shoot the 9x18 round would be wise to buy ammo in bulk quantities. Not talking about 10,000 rounds but the best prices are for 500-1,000 round bulk orders. I have over a dozen 9x18 handguns and still manage to find good prices for the steel cased ammo. Fioochi, Privi, and S&B brass cased ammo can be found at good prices too.

As been stated above, none of us know the future but ammo imports from Russia and even Ukraine could be stopped at any time. I sold my Tokarev when I saw the ammo start to dry up and increase in price. I have enough 9x18 ammo for a good many years of range fun.

armarsh
September 3, 2014, 11:53 AM
If you have bullets, everything else is easy to get.

http://www.berrysmfg.com/product-i15160-c18-g8-b0-p0-9x18_Makarov_364_95gr_RN___1000ct.aspx

Figure out how much you will shoot your 9mm Mak and buy a lifetime supply. Much better to decide your own future than to let others do it for you.

jrdolall
September 3, 2014, 12:34 PM
New manufacture? Doubtful unless the Hungarians decide to make more.

I have 7 different pistols that fire the 9x18 with the Hungarians being the low end of the spectrum and the Russian being the nicest. I shoot 3 of them regularly and really enjoy the "feel" of the guns. I have bullets and over 5k rounds of Fiocchi ammo plus I COULD cut down 9mm brass so I should be set until my kids inherit everything.

george burns
September 3, 2014, 12:42 PM
It's more of a collectors, and enthusiasts gun, it has no future as far as going mainstream.

Nom de Forum
September 3, 2014, 01:12 PM
In 1984 I shot some 9x17/.380 in a 9x18 Mak belonging to the AMTU at Fort Bragg. It went bang but it did not reliably cycle.

The 9x18 has a future only in the minds of people who like it. Why would anyone design another small .355 semi-auto pistol when pistols as small as the Kel-Tec PF-9 can fire 9mmP?

Nicky Santoro
September 3, 2014, 04:35 PM
Does 9x18 have a future?

Will their be new guns in 9X18? Few if any.

Will ammo be available for a long time? Absolutely. There are millions of guns chambered in it and therein lies a huge market.

stonecutter2
September 3, 2014, 05:53 PM
If you have bullets, everything else is easy to get.

http://www.berrysmfg.com/product-i15160-c18-g8-b0-p0-9x18_Makarov_364_95gr_RN___1000ct.aspx

Figure out how much you will shoot your 9mm Mak and buy a lifetime supply. Much better to decide your own future than to let others do it for you.
Seeing Berry's making 9x18 bullets again is a good sign - was disappointed when they disappeared!

Sebastian the Ibis
September 4, 2014, 01:44 AM
I bought 3k rounds (for $10/box) plus a CZ-82 and an extra p-64 2 years ago in the bad old days, when I couldn't find 9mm. While I don't think I'll be buying that much ever again, I still like a P-64 in a pocket.

joneb
September 6, 2014, 12:49 AM
The 9x18 Mak in a PM has more potential than a .380acp for the handloader.

krupparms
September 6, 2014, 12:58 AM
As has been pointed out. There are millions of surplus guns in this caliber out there. They and the 918mm will be around for a good while yet. JMO.

Geezer Glide
September 6, 2014, 04:37 PM
I have a P-64, a PA63, and a CZ 82, and fortunately, I have a very good supply of ammo for them. The 9X18 has a future with me.

nathan
September 6, 2014, 08:03 PM
As long as they are around, ammo will always be available.

orionengnr
September 6, 2014, 08:17 PM
If you want to invest in handloading equipment, then almost any cartridge is viable in the long term.

Factory ammo, available at a reasonable price? Depends entirely upon demand. I would not bet a lot on that particular cartridge as far as having enough demand to ensure a steady supply of reasonably priced factory ammo.

Again, consider handloading. I own and shoot (among others) 10mm, .41 Mag and .45 Long Colt. Any of those would cost me $35-45 for a box of 50 rounds, but I can (and do) manufacture each for about $6/box. As such, I have no incentive to sell any of those handguns, and every incentive to continue enjoying them.

North Bender
September 7, 2014, 01:48 PM
There are 13 pages of 9x18-related items on Gunbroker right now.

Jaymo
September 7, 2014, 07:05 PM
I love my PM and my CZ82.
Buddy of mine wants to sell his Bulgarian Mak.
May get it. Accurate, reliable, good trigger pull.
What's not to like?
More powerful than .380.
Larger boolit diameter than .380.

9x19 in a micro pistol is great, on paper.
Unfortunately, it loses quite a bit of velocity from a stubby barrel.

Kleanbore
September 7, 2014, 07:29 PM
...to have seen .32 S&W, .32 S&W Long, .38 Short and Long Colt, .38 S&W, .38 ACP, all of the WCF pistol/carbine rounds (some in "high speed"), .30 Luger, and .30 Mauser cartridges on the shelves. Plus .22 Win Auto RF. I may have forgotten some--maybe .32 and .41 Colt, for example, and some more obscure 7.65 and 9MM European rounds, perhaps. That's not to mention probably a dozen rifle rounds that are now gone.

To be frank, had someone told me in 1964 that some of those cartridges would be collector's items--that one day, one would not be able to afford to feed a S&W .38 Regulation Police, and that one would have to look far and wide for ammo for my S&W .32 Regulation Police--I probably would not have listened.

As long as one can find bullets and boxer primed brass one can handload, but I do not like handloading SD carry ammo. For plinking and practice, great. But unless the brass has a common head and rim, even that will come to an end.

At one time the .32 and .38 S&W loads were almost ubiquitous, but no more. I consider the 9X18 to be on the same road, just not as far down it yet.

Gun Master
September 7, 2014, 11:26 PM
...to have seen .32 S&W, .32 S&W Long, .38 Short and Long Colt, .38 S&W, .38 ACP, all of the WCF pistol/carbine rounds (some in "high speed"), .30 Luger, and .30 Mauser cartridges on the shelves. Plus .22 Win Auto RF. I may have forgotten some--maybe .32 and .41 Colt, for example, and some more obscure 7.65 and 9MM European rounds, perhaps. That's not to mention probably a dozen rifle rounds that are now gone.

To be frank, had someone told me in 1964 that some of those cartridges would be collector's items--that one day, one would not be able to afford to feed a S&W .38 Regulation Police, and that one would have to look far and wide for ammo for my S&W .32 Regulation Police--I probably would not have listened.

As long as one can find bullets and boxer primed brass one can handload, but I do not like handloading SD carry ammo. For plinking and practice, great. But unless the brass has a common head and rim, even that will come to an end.

At one time the .32 and .38 S&W loads were almost ubiquitous, but no more. I consider the 9X18 to be on the same road, just not as far down it yet.


Well, let's enjoy the ride while we are going !

Some say they are prophets, maybe others nay sayers, but I say, "Enjoy" !

Facts are one thing. We can learn, but have fun while you are there !

Good Shooting !:)

lincen
September 8, 2014, 07:22 AM
Here we are discussing 9x18 and I know a few folks that are ready to sell their 22's because they cannot find ammo. The lesson here is to keep a decent supply of any and all calibers that you use or have sufficient reloading components. I'm no talking about hording but simple planning.

Killian
September 9, 2014, 05:01 PM
"Does 9x18 have a future?" That depends. Do you call an obsolete caliber status as a future?

Vern Humphrey
September 9, 2014, 05:04 PM
Why not just rebarrel the gun in .380?

Killian
September 9, 2014, 05:15 PM
Here we are discussing 9x18 and I know a few folks that are ready to sell their 22's because they cannot find ammo.

Hard to justify buying a pistol that shoots .22 caliber when it's the weakest round produced when 1000 rounds of .22 will set you back the same price as 500 rounds of 9mm. The reason .22 was popular was because you could get 500 rounds for $20. If 500 rounds is going to cost $100 for it thru resellers, or if the ammo is unavailable at any price, then it makes sense to sell the .22 firearms and use the money to by ammo for something else with some power behind it.

LouisianaAviator
September 9, 2014, 08:40 PM
For me it does. I sometimes carry a Bulgarian Makarov. Very slim and easy to carry. It's not the lightest pistol, but it's a compact package and the weight is not enough to make a difference to me. Being all steel, the recoil is very light, and it's a very accurate pistol. When I do carry it, I load it with Hornady XTP's.

So for me, yes it does. I just wish 9x18 was as cheap as it used to be. It's still a fraction the cost of .380

JohnhenrySTL
September 9, 2014, 09:14 PM
I hope so. I love my CZ-82.

lincen
September 10, 2014, 09:21 AM
My comment about 22 firearms was serious and somewhat, for now at least, the opposite of the original question about the future of 9x18's.

On one hand you have an abundance of ammo for guns that are no longer made and on the other you have an abundance of new production handguns and long guns that you cannot get ammo for. In my area it does look like the panic buying and reselling of 22lr is slowing down. Still not much on the shelves but the resale price is dropping.

jrdolall
September 10, 2014, 10:18 AM
9x18 ammo has been ridiculous at my local sources since I got started with the round a couple of years ago. I was able to buy it online quite easily at about $.31 delivered which I thought was reasonable so I snapped up a bunch of the Fiocchi. Same stuff the LGS's were selling at about 1/2 the price. I haven't looked in several months so the supply may be down or prices may be up.

As far as 22 ammo being unavailable or $100 per brick, I haven't paid more than $.05 per round delivered to my door since all this started. Sure it's not sitting on the Walmart shelves like it was 5 years ago but it is still readily available and still 1/2 the price of centerfire ammo if you have the time to peruse the internet and the cash to buy it when you find it. I get notifications almost every day with .22 for a nickle a round. If .22 becomes obsolete then the world will end.

Quiet
September 10, 2014, 11:07 AM
Ammo will still be available for the 9x18mm cartridge.
But, do not expect any new handguns chambered for it.

Even the Russian Military has dropped it and adopted the 9x19mm cartridge as their new standard issue pistol caliber.

JHansenAK47
September 11, 2014, 04:22 AM
The 9x18 may not have a bright future on American soil but in the commercial market of former combloc countries it will have a future, especially with the propensity to ban military calibers ie 9x19.

Averageman
September 11, 2014, 03:32 PM
I bought a P64 during the height of the most recent ammo shortage drama.
I had no problem getting ammo and even Federal is making quality 9x18 ammo that is very available here.
I think it is a very overlooked caliber and a shade better than .380.
I have enough of it laying around to last the rest of my life for both carry and practise.

Gun Master
September 11, 2014, 03:59 PM
I bought a P64 during the height of the most recent ammo shortage drama.
I had no problem getting ammo and even Federal is making quality 9x18 ammo that is very available here.
I think it is a very overlooked caliber and a shade better than .380.
I have enough of it laying around to last the rest of my life for both carry and practise.

I'm with you, bro. !:)

Killian
September 11, 2014, 04:28 PM
Sure it's not sitting on the Walmart shelves like it was 5 years ago but it is still readily available and still 1/2 the price of centerfire ammo if you have the time to peruse the internet and the cash to buy it when you find it.

Some people are still acting like their .22 pistols have some inherent value over 9x18, or 9x19 or .357 and ask the same price that a 9mm or .380 can bring. $300 or $350 or even higher...for pistols that shoot a cartridge that is considerably weaker, less reliable, jams more frequently etc. When this is over, .22 ammo is likely to be double or perhaps triple in price at retail from what it use to be. $60 for 500 rounds honestly wouldn't seem a crazy price to pay in any other cartridge except .22. So the days of cheap .22 may be gone forever. My question becomes...why is there a belief that the value of a .22 pistols won't fall, and isn't falling, and that people might choose to divest themselves of owning one, when the rimfire is less powerful, less reliable on ignition than centerfire, and, at the moment, the price to purchase ammunition is approaching similarity to buying an equal number of centerfire rounds in larger, more reliable, caliber choices? If .22 ammunition continues to remain hard to get, or becomes available but at higher prices, then pistols in that caliber will become *far* less desirable for people to own. 22 Rifles will always have a place as a varmit and small game hunters. But the pistols...If I owned one I'd be considering getting rid of it right now for sure, while the price of a used one is high and I can expect someone out there to pay a pretty penny for it. Very soon the market on .22 pistols may plunge..and all it will take is for .22 ammo to be resupplied at Walmart in large quantities..but at prices that are 3x what they use to be. ($65-80 per 500 brick, let's say) In another year or so, manufacturers may shift their production to centerfire and away from .22 in any event. (If they haven't already.) How much metal goes into a box of 500 .22? I'll do a quick calculation..and use one of the heavier calibers (.45 ACP) as a counterpoint to show what I mean. 40 grains of .22 x500 rounds is 20,000 grains in weight of metal. Lead in this case. 500 times 230 grains of .45 ACP is 115,000 grains. But .45 sells in 50 round boxes, not 500. So 11,500 grains of .45 ammo sells at..what? $30 a box? $35? You could almost double the .45 to 2 boxes of 50, at 23,000 grains, and almost equal the 20,000 grain weight of a single brick of 500 .22. So for the same amount of lead and brass purchased by an ammo company, they could make a 50 round box of .45 that would net them the $15 difference between a $20 brick of 500 22 and the $35 box of .45. And they could almost make two boxes of .45 for the same weight of brass and lead that they as a company have to purchase for a $30 difference...for the same amount of lead and brass. So there's 2 boxes of 45 selling at $70, which is nearly the same weight as a 500 round box of .22 that everyone and their brother expects to get for $20 or less like it use to be. If you go to lighter calibers like .380 or 9mm, even .38 and 357...how many boxes of those can you produce for the same amount of metal you'd find in a box of 500 .22s? Would you rather sell 3 boxes of .380 or 1 box of .22? The reason why there may not be any .22 on the shelves right now could be because companies have already made this calculation and come to realize that their profit is best served in selling smaller amounts of 50 round boxes of centerfire than in bulk .22 ammo. If they haven't already made this calculation..then they soon will. So .22 may be a cartridge that doesn't receive a lot of interest for manufacturers to produce from now on..because it is less profitable....until the price becomes equal in profit to what producing a couple of centerfire boxes of equal weight and material input will equal. The availability of .22, in my opinion, may remain low for these reasons, and as a way to keep the price high. The days of the cheap .22 are gone, in my opinion.

Willie Sutton
September 11, 2014, 04:38 PM
in the commercial market of former combloc countries it will have a future, especially with the propensity to ban military calibers ie 9x19

Interesting proposition....

Can you offer one example of a former Warsaw Pact nation that has banned 9x19? :rolleyes:


Willie

.

BSA1
September 11, 2014, 07:33 PM
Dear Killian,

Baloney!

Regards,

BSA1

jrdolall
September 11, 2014, 11:06 PM
^^^Agreed. Baloney!
.22 Ammo is not "going away" or likely to remain at these inflated prices. I don't know anything about ammo manufacturing but if you think manufacturers have been losing money on .22 for the past 50 years then you don't know much about business. I assure you that the ammo companies know EXACTLY what it costs them to manufacture a round on .22, .45 and every other ammo they make. The fact that newly produced .22 ammo is being sold at prices just slightly above what it was 2 years ago pretty much disproves the theory. Will it go back to where it was in 2005 or 2011? I doubt it but will it be $60 a brick at Walmart for Golden Bullets? I think not.
The lowly .22 is a good weapon to train with and the caliber that most gun people got started with. At 25-30 yards it will punch a hole in paper just as good as a .45 or 9mm and make a steel target go "ding". For many, many young and recoil/noise sensitive people it is still the preferred round.
I have seen several people complaining about ammo price and availability and claiming they are going to sell off their .22 guns but I haven't seen that happening. .22 pistols and rifles are still flying off the shelves at prices approaching, and often exceeding, CF calibers. Ammo is still being produced 24/7 by all the ammo companies and they have all indicated that they will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. I can pick up a NIB Hi Point 9mm for less than $200 at most places around town and I will have a reliable, albeit butt ugly and heavy, pistol. I don't know of a reliable .22 LR pistol that is less than $200 NIB.

9x18? I haven't seen a "new" design for that caliber in years nor have I seen any major advances in bullet design. I imagine it could be considered "obsolete" and "old" but it is still a viable round because of the millions of surplus pistols available in the caliber. I have several and enjoy shooting them. It is rare for a trip to the range to NOT include one of my "Makarovs", even if it is not a true Makarov. With the bullets and brass I have on hand now I can shoot 9x18 until my shooting days are over.

Gun Master
September 12, 2014, 12:00 AM
Agreed, with one exception..........and two possibilities : 1. It can be spelled "bologna", and 2. It can be spelled "balonie". Both are essentially the same.

The .22 and 9x18mm will be around a long time.

Just wait and see !

North Bender
September 12, 2014, 01:11 AM
Killian,

If you had provided some punctuation I may have been able to grasp the meaning of your post. I realize it was a heart felt message - was it about 9x18 or only about 22?

9x18? I haven't seen a "new" design for that caliber in years nor have I seen any major advances in bullet design.

You don't follow 9x18 much do you? Look up what Buffalo Bore has provided. And Underwood. If you don't follow the caliber there is no need to post.

jrdolall
September 12, 2014, 09:39 AM
You don't follow 9x18 much do you? Look up what Buffalo Bore has provided. And Underwood. If you don't follow the caliber there is no need to pos
When you become a moderator then I will follow your advice. Until then....

I have some Buffalo Bore in 9x18. I also have some Hornady Critical Defense. Buffalo actually advertises that theirs is "not affected by heavy clothing". Neither of them is a huge improvement over anything that has been around for 50 years. I keep my P-64 loaded with FMJ.

Killian
September 12, 2014, 12:46 PM
Dear Killian,

Baloney!

Regards,

BSA1

I received the same comments back when the shortage started and I had the temerity to suggest that the shortage of .22 ammo would last longer than 6 months, and that it might last as long as 1 or 2 years. You can go back and find where I said this before. Time proved me right then...we can wait and see if it proves me right in the next year or two about .22 pistols. If you have any counterpoints on my logic or how I've calculated weights, measures, profitability for companies..please point them out.


Northbender: It's less about passionate statements than it is logical progression. It's just how my mind works. So I apologize for the way my previous statement was written and I'll try to clear it up now.
1. A company has to purchase brass and lead to make bullets. That brass and lead costs the same no matter what you make with it. The company could produce 500 pieces of .22..or it could make one .50 caliber bullet. The cost of the material purchased would be the same and an equal amount of brass and lead would go into producing both.
2. I don't have all I need to measure all the materials in boxes of ammunition so I'm going to use lead only for illustrative purposes. Measuring a box of .22 at 500 pieces of 40 grain lead equals 20,000 grains of lead. I'll use .45 ACP as a comparison because it is a sizeable weighty round and fewer bullets can be produced for the same amount of lead. 500 rounds of it at 230 grains of weight would equal 115,000 grains. But .45 sells in 50 round boxes. So 1/10th of 115,000 grains equals 11,500 grains. That's how much lead would have to go into producing a box of .45 ACP. (Do we all agree on that?)
3. It takes 20,000 grains of lead to make a box of 500 .22... and it takes only 11,500 grains to make a box of .45, then 20,000 grains of lead could be used to make 1.74 boxes of .45. It still takes 20,000 grains to make one box of .22 at 500 count.
4. How much profit is there to produce a box of .45 ACP? What does a 50 round box sell for? I don't have a .45 at the moment so I don't know. I'd think somewhere between $25 and $35 a box for .45. Looking at a couple of Winchester offerings in .45 online seems to put it somewhere in this range. I'll go with the cheaper estimate. $25 for a box of .45 ACP. For the same 20,000 grains, you can produce 1.74 boxes of .45 ACP compared to one box of .22. Those 500 round boxes of .22 use to sell for $20 a box. If you can make 1.74 boxes of .45 ACP with the same metal input then it is equal to 1.74 times the price of the .45. So 1.74 boxes times $25. $43.50. So the choice for the company is...do I produce something that will return $43.50 in cash inflow to the company. Or does the company produce 500 .22 that will return $20? To me, that question answers itself.
And this only becomes more obvious when you start using calibers that weigh far less and need lesser amounts of metal. 9mm can be 115 grains X 50 pieces. 5,750 grains of lead needed to produce one box of 9mm. You can make 3.47 boxes of 9mm ammunition with the same 20,000 grains of lead. A hollow point box of Winchester at Walmart right now is $21. So $21 times 3.47 equals $72.82...off the same amount of 20,000 grains of lead.

And yes, there will be a difference in how much brass and propellent goes into making a .45 case versus a .22 case and that will effect the amounts of money that go into producing a bullet. If someone wants to get that nitpicky and measure it all out by measuring boxes of .22 and .45 and pouring out the propellent..have at it. But I would still bet it comes out to being more profitable for a company to make a box of .45 than it would be for it to make 500 pieces of .22. (Since I wrote that, I checked online to find out what boxes of 50 round .45 and 9mm weigh and how much .22 weighs, and the searches I found put 500 .22 at around 3.75 pounds, .45 ACP at around 2 pounds for 50. 9mm at around 1.5 pounds for 50. So I think my previous ratios are pretty close.)

5. At this point is when I make a supposition. Before this it has all been numbers and weights. Brass, propellant, lead, copper jacketing. You guys can calculate all this yourself and even check prices on the metals market and get an approximate idea of how much your box of ammo is worth if bought all of it just as metal. Like a company would. Now I go into supposition.

6. Companies have experienced a run on ammunition. Everything they produce is being bought up. By my previous calculation stated above, .22 is less profitable to produce than .45, 9mm or other calibers. So companies, in my estimation, are not going to produce .22 at the same levels as they would other calibers. The only reason they would start to produce .22 higher levels would be if they can charge more for .22 ammunition at the store. I used $43.50 for .45ACP and $72.82 as a range of what companies can make on other products. So I believe that until a box of 500 .22 LR falls between $43 and $72 in price, companies aren't going to be gung ho about producing it. Like I say...more brass and more propellent and more copper jacketing goes into producing a .45 and 9mm bullet than it does for a .22. It will cut down on that range of profitability, I'm sure, once all the components were measured and compared. But it is going to be hard to make up a $30 or $50 difference in profit. So unless .22 rises to some higher price, in my view it is more profitable for companies to produce most other calibers than .22

7. Now for my supposition. Because .22 is scarce, guns that shoot .22 are going to become less valuable. What good is a gun without ammunition? It's a paperweight. .22 pistols, right now, are bringing $300, sometimes $400. My belief is that this is the case because .22 ammo has been cheap. If you can buy 500 rounds for $20 and go shoot all day, it's fun. It's economical. $20 use to get you 500 rounds of .22 and will still get you 50 rounds of 9mm. 50 rounds is less shooting. That's lesser amounts of fun and trigger time experience. If I am correct and .22 ammo is going to go up substantially in price when it finally returns to market in large numbers, then the choice for shooters is going to be buying 500 rounds of .22...or for the same money being 3.47 boxes of 9mm (or 2.5 or 3 or whatever the ratio works out to be) and .22 will be more around that $72 amount for a box of 500. That's 173 rounds of 9mm for the same price as 500 rounds of .22. That's no longer 50 rounds of 9mm being the same price as 500 .22. That's 173 rounds being the same price. (Or 150. Or 130. Or 100). By comparison, the same money to shoot .22 is now buying you more "bang for the buck" in centerfire calibers. That's going to effect the value of the guns that shoot .22, particularly pistols. Rifles have other uses that pistols can't fill.

8. .22 pistols are losing their value and will continue to lose their value as .22 approaches prices similar to centerfire ammunition. .22 rifles will always have value as small game guns. But .22 rifles already sell at $100, $150, $200. They are already priced at what people judge them at compared to other rifles shooting more powerful rounds. That's where .22 pistols are going to end up at. Or lower, in my estimation, because .22 pistols are selling for prices at near equal to what a new LC9 or some other pistols of similar type can bring. In my opinion, that's not going to last.

9. Does all this relate to 9x18? Yeah, the same factors are at work with 9x18, only worse. It's becoming an obsolete cartridge. There are no long guns used for hunting that use 9x18 as a cartridge to promote sales of the round. Companies that produce 9x18 have to ask themselves if they should run off a batch of 9x18 which they can only sell for 12 a box, or run off a batch of 9x19 which will be far more readily accepted and find a greater market. In order to convince that company it is worth their while to produce 9x18, you have to pay more for it than 9x19. There are still quite a few 9x18s being used in the world, but I think prices on 9x18 are going to approach Nagant pistol ammo prices within a few years. Convert the ones you have to .380 would be my suggestion.

Hopefully I've clarified my position more fully.

Pilot
September 12, 2014, 07:47 PM
As others have said, as long as 9x18 can be reloaded using trimmed 9x19 cases it will not become obsolete, or at least the guns that shoot it won't. I like my Makarovs (PM). I am not enthralled with the P-64, or P-63, but the CZ-82, and Polish P-83 Vanad are on my wish list in this caliber.

Vern Humphrey
September 12, 2014, 08:17 PM
A great many cartridges survive by handloading even though guns for them are no longer made. Some, like the .303 Savage are difficult to make from any standard brass and are just about dead. Others, like the .44 S&W American can be easily made and will survive forever.

North Bender
September 12, 2014, 09:06 PM
Jrdolall: When you become a moderator then I will follow your advice. Until then....

I don't see where I provided you any advice.

CornCod
September 13, 2014, 11:50 AM
I think 9X18 will be easily gotten for the next 30 years, but the decline of Russian-American relations will probably mean higher prices for the ammo.

lincen
September 13, 2014, 01:58 PM
Again I suggest that folks take advantage of the favorable pricing of 9x18 ammo and stock several thousand rounds. Even brass cased ammo is reasonable in 500 round purchases. I prefer the steel cased ammo but have a good amount of the brass to comply with our county indoor range.

Vern Humphrey
September 13, 2014, 05:13 PM
Yes. Anything Russian-made will be hard to come by in the near future.

I recommend getting a mould, dies and a stock of brass now.

.455_Hunter
September 16, 2014, 05:00 PM
How will fussiness with the Kremlin cause a price increase for Fiocchi, S&B, PPU and other non-Russian ammo suppliers?

Vern Humphrey
September 16, 2014, 05:07 PM
How will fussiness with the Kremlin cause a price increase for Fiocchi, S&B, PPU and other non-Russian ammo suppliers?
Through the Law of Supply and Demand. If we cannot get Russian ammo, then there is less ammo available to the customer (the supply is reduced) and the price will rise.

stressed
September 16, 2014, 06:02 PM
I.O is coming out with a PM-63 RAK chambered in 9x18. Even the USSR went to 9mm +P+.

.455_Hunter
September 16, 2014, 06:24 PM
I.O is coming out with a PM-63 RAK chambered in 9x18.

Now that's cool! I wish somebody did a Stechkin replica as well.

Litlman
September 17, 2014, 11:15 PM
I have 2 Bulgarian Maks. They run period. I would never get rid of them. I am seriously looking at a CZ 82 and availability of ammo is not a concern for my life time. The only concern that I have at this time is funding for the CZ :)

Jaymo
October 13, 2014, 02:32 AM
Makarov parts and accessories are still very affordable and very available.
Much more so, than 3rd Gen Smith auto parts and accessories.
I don't see people giving up their 3rd Gen Smiths (I'm certainly not), nor do I see them giving up their Makarovs.
I've been buying ammo for mine locally. In the past two weeks I got some old Norinco 1990s ball ammo, some new Fiocchi ball ammo, and two different types of Hornady SD ammo in 9x18.
One of my local fun stores has a very good supply of new Makarov ammo.
Guess I'd better go buy it all, since it's going to disappear overnight.(yup, sarcasm)

Since I can cast my own bullets and trim 9x19 brass to load my own, I think I'll be OK on ammo for it.
Still, I buy all the ammo I can find for it, just like I do Tokarev ammo.

I think everyone should send their obsolete 9x18 pistols, accessories, and ammo to me.
I will ensure it's disposed of properly. One magazine full at a time. :)

Y'all continue to carry and shoot what you like. That's exactly what I plan on doing.

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