On the utter uselessness of stun guns.


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TimboKhan
August 30, 2014, 03:46 AM
I have long railed about the uselessness of stun guns. Watch and see my point. The reactions range from apparent shrieks to something akin to delight. Certainly, none of the reactions indicate anything remotely useful in stopping a threat. Plus, it's just sort of funny.



The Taser Photoshoot Original: http://youtu.be/94Gw8WzHsRc

MOD NOTE: No Tasers were harmed, or even used, in the making of the video (regardless of what the video shoot title says). ;)

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bikerdoc
August 30, 2014, 08:49 AM
Yep, useless.

drband
August 30, 2014, 09:39 AM
Ok. So is this the effect you get with a LEO-type taser gun that shoots wired, barbed electrodes into a threat and then stuns multiple times as necessary? Don't think so. However, I agree about the handheld unit as shown. Useless!

BullfrogKen
August 30, 2014, 01:54 PM
Timbo, did you mean to post this in non-Firearms Weapons instead of the NFA Firearms forum?

LemmyCaution
August 30, 2014, 03:52 PM
I have one of those stun guns. I don't imagine I'd ever find it useful as a self defense weapon, but it certainly has made my more recalcitrant livestock straighten right out. I have a pig that got in the habit of biting my thigh muscle above the knee whenever I got in the paddock. I gave him a good whack with the stun gun, and he keeps a respectful distance these days. Likewise with my buck goat, who thought it was funny to push me into the electric fence at feeding time.

rjrivero
August 30, 2014, 03:58 PM
That's not a TASER. That's a "stun gun." A Taser is much more effective.

hso
August 30, 2014, 04:47 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0MYI8gvE3g&src_vid=94Gw8WzHsRc&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_3660193041

Background video.

We can clearly see that there are plenty of people who jump, but aren't freaked out when shocked. Clearly showing these stun guns are worse than useless since they delude uninformed people into thinking they can defend themselves with them.

TimboKhan
August 30, 2014, 11:15 PM
I did mean to post it in NFW, Ken.

Also, I KNOW its not a taser. Tasers are effective. Every once in a while though, someone will ask about the viability of a stun gun and my answer is always "not viable at all".

That the guy filming this called it a Taser... well, sadly that has become the catch all word for electric weapons such as these, but I am completely aware of the difference, which is why I said "stun gun" not taser.

leadcounsel
August 31, 2014, 12:21 AM
I cannot speak to the effectiveness of the stun gun in the Youtube. It allegedly puts out 300,000 volts. Notice that the focus of the photographer is to capture fun reactions - and his extended video is almost entirely about the photographic process, camera, equipment, lighting, etc.

I can speak to the 100% effectiveness of the Taser (R). http://www.taser.com/products/law-enforcement/taser-x26p

In 2010 or so I was in a military course and we were certified on the Taser x26. In a group of about 50 big, strong, brave Special Forces and support staff Soldiers, we had to shoot each other. All 50 (including myself) dropped like sacks of rocks for the 5 seconds of the pulses. There was no - meaning zero - ability to laugh, resist, fight back, or do anything other than lock up and fall down during the duration of the charges (5 seconds, 19 pulses per second, total of 95 pulses in 5 seconds). Zap, zap, zap 95 times in 5 seconds. It was the most horribly painful experience - it felt like what you imagine being electrocuted would feel like. The effects were largely worn off immediately afterward. The shockee felt 'weird' but could otherwise function within moments after the shock with no issues.

Watching others ahead of you only added to the horrific anticipation. The x26 - for APPREHENDING an individual or gaining compliance while making an ARREST is an excellent short range tool.

It is not well suited for civilians - we don't have backup, it is cumbersome and short range, no fast reload ability if you miss (and they are not very accurate - even at 10 feet on a still target, there were some people who managed to miss), and we aren't making arrests or apprehending others.

Hence, I would not carry or incorporate one for myself as a civilian. If there is a threat (perhaps a non-lethal but still serious threat, or an animal that I don't want to shoot like a bear or neighbors dog), I may use non-lethal pepper spray if I have it, allowing me to escape or avoid further escalation. Pepper spray - in my experience - is quite effective at debilitating nearly every person. Not to derail this, PS does have limitation on distance, wind, indoor/outdoor considerations, etc.

I assume this is directed largely at the female or anti-gun population who think a stun gun is a good alternative. We see these in gun shows regularly. I agree they are a poor alternative. If there is a lethal threat then the appropriate response is lethal IMO, and that means a firearm in most cases due to their proven effectiveness.

hso
August 31, 2014, 10:54 AM
I assume this is directed largely at the female or anti-gun population who think a stun gun is a good alternative.

I don't know what you mean by "this is directed largely at...". They make it pretty clear in all three videos that it was driven by curiosity and the desire to capture people's reactions.

leadcounsel
August 31, 2014, 04:37 PM
"This" meaning the marketing and sale of stun guns. My next sentence, "We see these in gun shows regularly. I agree they are a poor alternative," was meant to further explain "this."

hso
August 31, 2014, 05:50 PM
Gottcha!

Thanks

Double Naught Spy
September 1, 2014, 12:04 PM
that's not a taser. That's a "stun gun."

right!

GEM
September 1, 2014, 12:27 PM
Folks buy these. I went to the gun show with some buddies and their wives. We separated to look at guns and the wives at the jewelry and junk.

They came back with stun guns. I told the husband of one of the side that they were useless. Let him deal with it.

Some folks don't want to use lethal force and think these are a better alternative.

I've been shocked with them in a H2H class to demonstrate how they are worthless. The instructor also recommended a gun class to the folks.

armoredman
September 1, 2014, 02:08 PM
redacted

scaatylobo
September 1, 2014, 02:55 PM
I was very curious about the O.P's heading.

Now I see that it was pure b.s. as they did NOT use a Taser at all.

A "hand stunner" is NOTHING like a Taser as was stated above.

I was Tased to pass Taser instructor school,and I watched my whole class get Tased.

NO ONE smiled or was able to do more than FALL DOWN !!!.

I then got to Tase my students to pass and be able to carry one ion the job .

I saw the results of the few hundred that I got to Tase,and the results of using it on the streets on perps as well as dogs.

NO ONE was standing or smiling after being Tased.

It is not the perfect tool to stop a violent attack as it can be bypassed.

BUT to any who would like to try it,I strongly that you go to your local police dept and ask to be a dummy for them,you will NOT ask twice if they allow you !.

herrwalther
September 1, 2014, 05:20 PM
I was very curious about the O.P's heading.

Now I see that it was pure b.s. as they did NOT use a Taser at all.

The OP title I read says "stun guns." Stun guns are useless. Tasers are quite a bit more effective.

On topic, the only time I see stun guns as a good idea is in states where it is hard to carry anything better.

TimboKhan
September 1, 2014, 05:35 PM
Stun guns are never a good alternative. Honestly, a yawara or a tactical pen or a kubotan is better.

hso
September 1, 2014, 08:50 PM
I agree with Timbo, a stun gun is a piece of junk and you're far better off with any other option.

BullfrogKen
September 1, 2014, 08:58 PM
Stun guns are little battery-operated torture tools that serve little purpose than to make someone who wants to do bad things to you extremely enraged. And since the user must be at contact distance to use one, that's a really bad idea.


TASERS on the other hand. Tasers don't deliver pain, which is really all a stun gun does. Tasers drop your butt. Involuntarily. We evaluated some of the personal defense Tasers a few years back at the NTI. I voluntarily took three rides. I was completely incapacitated on each one. It ranks right up there with the twilight drugs the doc gives me for my colonoscopies. I don't care how strong your will is, you cannot fight that science.

Tasers are a valid option. Stun guns are novelties.

armoredman
September 1, 2014, 11:06 PM
I don't care how strong your will is, you cannot fight that science.

Seen it done.

Robert
September 1, 2014, 11:48 PM
Care to elaborate on that AM?

Ken, a taser can be used for pain compliance if the cartridge is removed. A drive stun does not give total neuromuscular incapacitation like a probe deployment will, but it will cause a massive amount of pain and make you seriously rethink your behavior. I have personally experienced this.

BullfrogKen
September 2, 2014, 12:50 AM
The three rides I volunteered to take weren't the pain compliance function.


I took three rides on the leads. First was for the experience. Second was to see if I could actually overcome it. Third was at the NTI as a volunteer to display the effectiveness.

I'm intimately familiar with pain.


Tasers aren't pain compliance. Taser hits controll you, and you are unable to resist if those barbs hit. Now, I know how to defeat that. I just won't post it publicly; not even here.

armoredman
September 2, 2014, 01:37 AM
I did before - watched an inmate take 4 Taser hits, two barbs, two contact hits, and all he did was yell and yank out the barbs. He gave up when he got bored. Saw another guy being handled by officer on the street, and it took two Tasers going at the same time to drop him. It's a HECK of a lot better than OC, and I wish I had more staff equipped with Tasers, but they aren't perfect.
Don't forget that Florida inmate who got soaked with oil based pepper spray, then Tased...he ignited. We lost our good OC to cheesy stuff over that. But, as The Joker said, "It's a hot time, in the old town tonight!"

Outlaw Man
September 2, 2014, 05:37 PM
I saw another good video (I can't find it right now) talking about the differences. One thing I remember was the guy said even if you could get a stun gun that could unleash the intensity of a real Taser, you still have to be, like Ken said, right up in their personal space - and them in yours - to employ it. And you eventually have to turn it off when, again, they're well within arm's grasp.

And they don't just enrage the person they're being used against. They also enrage the vast majority of gun show attendees and vendors who know their ineffectiveness.

I like Lemmy's idea.

ETA: Tasers really work, but you still have to aim them and make good contact with the probes. Not perfect, but another good tool to have in your box, especially those who have a duty to engage in the situation.

USAF_Vet
September 2, 2014, 08:04 PM
As useless as stun guns are, they are still restricted in Michigan to CPL holders only, which I find laughable. If I can carry a gun, why on earth would I choose a stun gun, or even a bona fide Taser? I could foreseably carry it where I am prohibited from carrying a pistol, maybe, but that's the only allure.

I see now a lot of tactical flashlights with stun guns built into them. I imagine these are just as gimmicky as the handheld contact shock devices, with a more efficient way to drain the battery. If using a flashlight as a self defense tool, I'd prefer a four D cell Mag light.

As for less lethal options, I'd recommend a good OC spray even over a Taser. OC is much more cost effective, and based on personal experience with both the hand held liquid spray cans, and the gaseous canisters, extremely effective and debilitating.

I've never been hit with an actual Taser, and have no desire to, either. Stun guns, I agree, are useless but damned if they don't sell.

Madcap_Magician
September 4, 2014, 11:03 AM
I did before - watched an inmate take 4 Taser hits, two barbs, two contact hits, and all he did was yell and yank out the barbs. He gave up when he got bored. Saw another guy being handled by officer on the street, and it took two Tasers going at the same time to drop him. It's a HECK of a lot better than OC, and I wish I had more staff equipped with Tasers, but they aren't perfect.
Don't forget that Florida inmate who got soaked with oil based pepper spray, then Tased...he ignited. We lost our good OC to cheesy stuff over that. But, as The Joker said, "It's a hot time, in the old town tonight!"

Hahaha when I did my certification we had a guy who got zapped and thrashed around so much he sat up and dislodged one of the probes. When the electricity stopped he was so relieved that he just flopped back on his back with this huge sigh... where he landed on the probe again before the five second ride was up.

Fiv3r
September 4, 2014, 03:17 PM
Stun guns really don't do much, as has been stated. One of my buddies back in high school had one that we would take turns zapping either other with. Hurt like hell, but that was about it. He got it from one of the local "tough guys" that thought it wouldn't be prudent to pull it and try to use it on my friend's 6'3 250lb frame. So my buddy got a free stun gun and the other idiot got off with a punch in the gut and shoved on his butt.

I'm torn on TASERs. Like most people here, I have a CCW permit. Most every place I travel on a regular basis honors my permit so that I don't have to go unarmed. However, part of me sees the merit of having something with more range than a sharp stick when I travel to places where TASERs are legal but they don't accept my CCW.

A friend of mine is a cop who has worked for both the county as well as city police. He's had to be TASEd both times he went through the academy and says it's no picnic. While he's not the same friend I talked about messing around with the stun gun, he's about 6'3 250lbs as well. The TASER dropped him like a stone.

But yeah, stun guns are junk.

sawdeanz
September 4, 2014, 04:49 PM
Thanks for starting this thread. Though I wasn't considering one, I didn't know that there was a difference. I always thought stun guns produced the same kind of debilitation as tasers. I will be sure I inform others as well.

It doesn't help that these contact stun guns are often depicted in movies as being effective to comedic degree.

leadcounsel
September 4, 2014, 05:21 PM
I'm torn on TASERs. Like most people here, I have a CCW permit. Most every place I travel on a regular basis honors my permit so that I don't have to go unarmed. However, part of me sees the merit of having something with more range than a sharp stick when I travel to places where TASERs are legal but they don't accept my CCW.

A TASER would be a good alternative for one who cannot own/carry/possess a firearm. It has limitations (close range, single shot models, heavy or loose clothing may defeat them, etc.). But IF you make contact, most people will immediately be totally debilitated and under submissive control. With these, you can administer repeated 5 second very painful shocks. It would be the rare person (drugged up perhaps) who could overcome or not care about repeated pain compliance. You basically have them on a leash - although they could pull out the barbs, or the bards could be dislodged, thereby breaking contact.

So you need a backup plan - a secondary weapon, escape, etc. What do you "do" with a subdued attacker, really?

And they are expensive. Last I looked the X26 gun was about $1000, and cartridge packs are pricey too.

It would possibly be one tool in your toolbag if a gun was not an option.

JShirley
September 4, 2014, 08:29 PM
Taser took me right down when tested...but Byron couldn't figure out how to keep juicing me when I got back up and continued the "attack".

RIP, buddy.

Double_J
September 4, 2014, 10:50 PM
I have been hit with a stun gun once, and all it did was make me wince a little. I did win $5.00 from the vendor at the gun show for taking it though. I have also seen a stun gun that was a MUCH higher voltage than the normal ones, and I heard from a reliable source that stun gun was not a joke in relation to the PAIN it brought.

I also heard of two people who were not affected at all by a taser. One of them was hopped up on drugs and fought four BIG cops to the ground, after being tased twice. He finally was stopped after a load of 00 buckshot to the chest and neck. The blood toxicology test showed a virtual pharmacy, and the M.E. said he was dead and did not know it. The other person who was not affected was a cop who was one of the rare percentage who did not feel pain/did not have a normal physiology. He was hit with the barbs and just pulled them out without flinching. His response to the instructor was "you are now a dead man if I was a bad guy." The instructor had never seen anyone who could respond like that. He tried to hit the cop again and it did no good at all again.

The overall record of stun guns shows they are a gimmick, tasers are a better choice for those who have to subdue an individual but you still have to get close and make your one shot count and hope that the bad guy does not have friends.

Madcap_Magician
September 5, 2014, 12:47 PM
A TASER would be a good alternative for one who cannot own/carry/possess a firearm. It has limitations (close range, single shot models, heavy or loose clothing may defeat them, etc.). But IF you make contact, most people will immediately be totally debilitated and under submissive control. With these, you can administer repeated 5 second very painful shocks. It would be the rare person (drugged up perhaps) who could overcome or not care about repeated pain compliance. You basically have them on a leash - although they could pull out the barbs, or the bards could be dislodged, thereby breaking contact.

So you need a backup plan - a secondary weapon, escape, etc. What do you "do" with a subdued attacker, really?

And they are expensive. Last I looked the X26 gun was about $1000, and cartridge packs are pricey too.

It would possibly be one tool in your toolbag if a gun was not an option.

One major issue is that a lot of places have the same or nearly the same requirements to carry a TASER as they do for actual firearms, and it's more common to find restrictions on their possession and carry that aren't present for OC spray.

The civilian model TASERs have shorter range than the police ones, but they are also more compact for easier carry and substantially cheaper at around $300-$400.

armoredman
September 6, 2014, 02:27 PM
The civilian models, IIRC, are made to be dropped, as the ride they give is actually 30 seconds, long enough for someone to run away...I think I remember reading that somewhere. Of course, if there is more than one attacker...

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