Trapping coyotes with fishooks?


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p35
April 10, 2004, 08:33 PM
This state just outlawed the use of big, baited treble fishhooks to trap coyotes:

http://www.theolympian.com/home/news/20040408/opinion/22179_ARC.shtml

Frankly, I think it wasn't illegal because no one thought of trying it before. I was surprised by the claim that it's common in the East. Has anyone else heard of this?

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Pawcatch
April 10, 2004, 09:15 PM
I heard of it,but I never seen it done.From what I understand it was once a fairly common method among the inuits.
Of couse,this will happen when the proper tools such as snares and modern foothold traps are banned.

PATH
April 10, 2004, 09:55 PM
I can't see the use of the hooks. Use proper traps. My .02 cents.

WhiteKnight
April 11, 2004, 03:00 PM
Interesting article. Seems a bit of an overly cruel practice IMHO; glad it's gone.

sturmruger
April 13, 2004, 01:28 PM
I can't see why anyone would want to catch a coyote that way. My favorite way to kill coyotes is to hunt over a gut pile or a dead pig when I lived in IA. We would see tons of coyotes and had a blast shooting them.

Stand_Watie
April 13, 2004, 04:41 PM
I know for a fact that you can also catch the local police chief's German Shepherd dog that way.

Not my doing (and the culprit will remain unnamed), but when you put out a trott line (for fish) be careful it's properly secured, nothing is quite as sad as a dog with a hook in it's mouth. This might have been more neccessary in a different time, but nowadays I can't imagine doing such a thing deliberately - if things are bad enough with the coyotes that you have to resort to such a thing it seems that poison (which most people think cruel) would be less painful.

Joe Demko
April 14, 2004, 04:16 PM
People sometimes use the same method (baited hooks) to poach turkeys in these parts. It does seem needlessly painful.

JShirley
April 14, 2004, 06:16 PM
I've heard of it- years ago- but never seen it done.

John

MinScout
April 15, 2004, 02:23 PM
I'm no animal rights fanatic, but it does seem rather cruel. Shoot em or trap em if you must.

kentucky bucky
April 17, 2004, 09:36 AM
I've never hated an animal that bad

submin
April 17, 2004, 01:12 PM
Just so the thread doesn't have at least one dissenter and for the sake of discussion, I'm going to ask what is so much different about this method and say leg traps or arsenic and anti-freeze?

You can't tell me there is no suffering with these methods as well.

I'm going to say as long as the letter of the law is followed (CHECKING SETS DAILY), the suffering will be close to the same. If you are going to ask me how would I feel with a hook in my belly, I'm going to ask you how you would like to gnaw your leg out of a trap or suffer untold days with possibly a less than lethal dose of poison.

For those who have the time and skill to call them in and take them with .223, I envy you. I have neither. But then my intended target is feral dogs.

Now. there is the voice of dissent. :D Just for the heck of it.:D

Art Eatman
April 17, 2004, 01:44 PM
Well, submin, I've heard of lots of "looks like cruel" deals for wolves--and seagulls, for that matter. Pelicans and gulls have been known to grab a cast-out bait before it hits the water. So, some guys deliberately cast to catch seagulls. Others string two hooks together, bait them, and toss them up. This results in two gulls hooked together until they die.

I grant that it's hard for some to care much about seagulls...

I've read that some northern Indians will put coiled-up bone shards or pieces of steel inside a lump of frozen or near-frozen fat; a wolf gulps it down and after the fat melts the coils then perforate the stomach or intestines.

I'd imagine the amount of pain from a leg-hold trap would be notably less than the pain of a hook in the mouth. Far more sensitive area, the mouth. I've skinned out many a deer, and the amount of cactus spines inside the skin of the front shins is incredible--yet they live with it with no apparent effects.

Just guessing, but folks who'd use the fish hook trap system don't strike me as those who would do like you and check the setups on a regular basis. No way to know, of course. Maybe they do it close enough to where they regularly work/live/visit that they can hear the screams...

The problem with any traps outside a pretty-much wilderness area is that like bombs, they're addressed "To whom it may concern" and can trap unintended critters--like my dog, once upon a time, who got caught in a neighbor's leg-hold trap. I'd have been, er, "slightly miffed" if it had been a fish hook trap...

Art

p35
April 17, 2004, 01:53 PM
I think the subcontext here may have been that this was near a "rail to trail" line where a lot of people walk their dogs. If the guy wasn't actually trying to scare people into keeping their dogs on leash, I'm sure he didn't mind it.

submin
April 17, 2004, 03:19 PM
Strange you mention the gulls and such, Art. While I haven't tried this with mammals, I have skin hooked fish and tethered them to rocks with the bait three feet under the surface and caught geese and ducks. Not really the same thing because they drowned quickly, but I think the method is really ingenious.

I really don't know about the people who use this system not checking their sets daily, but I'd bet the meat trappers do. I'm kinda skittish when we start condemning a method of trapping because of concern for suffering. All trapping causes suffering to some degree and if we start drawing lines, we have to remember the lines can be redrawn to deal with the next method. And then the next.

P35 is right. Trapping around parks and populated areas is stupid. It's probably this type who wouldn't check their sets daily regardless of the type of traps they use. The fact they don't trap in the wilderness and chose a rail to trail shows the lack of sportsmanship and respect. Every trapper I know are decent people who also hunt and try to take game cleanly. They don't set out to cause undue pain to their pray.

I have to stick to my guns and say if the need arises, I'll use this method without guilt. Sounds really efficient. And besides. Dissent is healthy.

:D :D

JShirley
April 17, 2004, 06:52 PM
Submin,

As I understand it, antifreeze causes an effect much like intoxication. Hard to see much suffering there.

john, out of vodka ;)

HBK
April 17, 2004, 08:01 PM
I don't know, trapping in general sounds cruel to me. Hunting is fine, but trapping is too cruel. Or maybe I'm just a candyass.

JShirley
April 17, 2004, 08:18 PM
That's probably it. ;) There ARE different types of trapping- some aren't cruel if you check your traps regularly.

willp58
April 17, 2004, 08:40 PM
While rabbit hunting this fall, my beagle got in a #2 jump trap someone had set for coyote/fox..He yowled a little when it went off. I ran over and opened it and he went right on hunting like nothing happened.
Now if I wasn't there and he struggled for a while maybe that would be different and more painful.
But think about stuggling with a hook in his gullet...
Man I've never been that desperate to catch anything.

Pawcatch
April 17, 2004, 10:33 PM
There are a lot of myths about trapping put out by the antis.
They fail to tell you that many traps including footholds have passed Humane Trapping Standards in both Canada and New Zealand.
Now if a certain trap can pass several international tests I think it fails to be cruel.

Here's some information on trapping standards in Canada
www.fur.ca/research/index-e.asp

Go here for ones in New Zealand
www.landcareresearch.co.nz/publications/infosheets/possums/traps.pdf?traps


This site has some new humane traps used for ferrets,stoats,and feral cats in New Zealand
www.turntide.co.nz

Here's the Warrior possum kill trap.It kills the vast majority of possums in less than one minute and it can be set to avoid non-target animals such as birds.
www.landcareresearch.co.nz/news/innovation/possum_trap.asp

H&Hhunter
April 18, 2004, 03:25 PM
As I understand it, antifreeze causes an effect much like intoxication. Hard to see much suffering there.

John,

You all know I haven't got a shread of bunny hugger in me. However my wife is a Veternarian. I'll just tell any of you guys right now if you've ever seen an animal die from Antifreeze poisoning you'd know that it is a slow lingering horrible death. Antifreeze causes kidney failure sevre dehydration and eventual death from toxin build up in the system. It takes about 3-5 days of the nearly unimaginable suffering.

Not to sound like mother Teresa here but this is one form of predetor control I would never even consider.

H&Hhunter

Stand_Watie
April 19, 2004, 01:28 AM
You all know I haven't got a shread of bunny hugger in me. However my wife is a Veternarian. I'll just tell any of you guys right now if you've ever seen an animal die from Antifreeze poisoning you'd know that it is a slow lingering horrible death. Antifreeze causes kidney failure sevre dehydration and eventual death from toxin build up in the system. It takes about 3-5 days of the nearly unimaginable suffering.

How about strychnine and cyanide? I know they banned strychnine for above ground use but you can still buy cyanide products. I can't believe either of those would be as painful as fishhook trapping.

Art Eatman
April 19, 2004, 07:59 AM
From reading, not observation: Strychnine kills in a lengthy matter of minutes, and is painful. Cyanide is relatively close to instantaneous; apparently, by the time you realize you have a problem you go to unconsciousness. Cyanide was used in the old "1080" traps, now outlawed because of the hazard to other than coyotes.

What I find interesting about strychnine is that my grandmother, back in the 1940s, would buy a tube of strychnine paste over the counter at a drugstore in downtown Austin, Texas. She'd use it to poison possums and such around the chickenhouse. She'd spread a bit on pieces of bread, setting them out after the chickens were penned. My recall is that possums, raccoons or foxes didn't go very far after consumption.

Art

willp58
April 19, 2004, 10:53 AM
There is a fly poison that is available at Agway that supposedly is murder on critters.
I have heard people tell that if a Raccon gets into a peice of meat with that on it, they will find the coon inside of 10 feet of the bait.
Poisoning animals and catching them with hooks seems awful damn desparate to me ...

H&Hhunter
April 19, 2004, 11:55 AM
Stand,

How about strychnine and cyanide? I know they banned strychnine for above ground use but you can still buy cyanide products. I can't believe either of those would be as painful as fishhook trapping.

I've got my wife right here and she says.

Strychnine,

Take 2-4hours to kill. It is also an extremely horrible death. The mechanism of the poison is a series of continual seizures over the course of several hours in which the animal is concious or semiconcious state. Here is the technical description from the merck veternairy manual. Death occurs from exhaustion or asphyxiation caused by the continous tuetonic siezures.

Cyanide is a more pleasant and usually takes arouns 20 minutes to complete it's job.

Larry Ashcraft
April 19, 2004, 01:13 PM
A friend of mine used to own a company called "Humane Coyote Getter". The contraption was invented in the 1940's by his father-in-law and used a .38 special primed case with a plastic shot cup containing cyanide (I think before plastic shot cups they used wax). There was a baited piece of cotton and when the coyote pulled on it, it would shoot the cyanide into his mouth. He said that the coyote would rarely be found more than ten feet from the device.

Of course it would also get domestic dogs, and the occasional magpie or hawk would pull on the bait and get his head blown off. Also, there was at least one human death from the device where someone pulled on one of the traps and had cyanide shot into his hand.

The government sponsored a competing device called the M44 that used springs instead of a primer. Although the M44 didn't work as well, the government eventually banned the use of a propellant in traps and effectually put my friend out of business. He subsisted for a few years on export sales (the getters worked well on hyenas also) and then retired after being busted for "knowingly storing hazardous wastes" by the government.

H&Hhunter
April 19, 2004, 03:02 PM
There was an old trapper/coyote control guy in NM about 15 years ago who accidently fired an M-44 into his face while trying to pick it up. he survived but he was a real sick puppy.

Immediatly after taking the charge of cyanide he dunked his head into a water tank and rinsed out all the poison he could. I don't know the rest of the story except that he lived.

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