[spacemanspiff]

and the head honcho on the premises cant figure out how to use a bushing wrench on my kimber. he had to have one of his 'subordinates' do it.

kept muttering how 'no one needs anything more than a seecamp'.

weirdos!

:neener:

[Kamicosmos]

I have learned not to say much to anybody in gunstores anymore. If they say something stupid, or answer a question incorrectly, I just nod my head and say, 'Wow, I didn't know that'. That goes for people on BOTH sides of the counter.

All the stores in my area have at least 1 or 2 people there that don't know thier stuff. I assume they must be friends or relatives of the owners or something.

Just goes to prove Buyer Beware. Every market has that problem though, not just guns. You want laughs? Hang out in computer stores....

[PATH]

:( Sigh!

[Wildalaska]

OK Spiff, I was gonna let ya off the hook, but I see you want your "dirty laundry exposed...:what:

WildnyahnyahAlaska

[larry_minn]

Not a gun store but had a guy show me the largest Grissley bear taken in Alaska. THing was 1600lbs and HUGE. Then he says it was taken by a monster gun..... A 9MM I about fell over laughing. I was SO temped to pull out spare mag and show him a MONSTER bullet.
He just knew nothing about guns and 9mm stuck in his brain. I suggested if it was as he said. "Larger then 30 06" It might be a 45/70 or 458/375 H&H or other calibers I have only heard of but never shot.

[Wildalaska]

9.3x62...

And ya dont need more than a seecamp!

WildknowitallAlaska

[artherd]

It *COULD* have been a 9x90mm...

http://www.hkpro.com/wsgrounds.jpg

The shell on the left is a .50BMG!

Of course there's only one gun that fires this. No, not one model of gun. ONE GUN :P

http://www.hkpro.com/wsg2000.htm

Then again, a 340gr slug at *3500fps* would be plenty for bear... (jesus.)


EDIT: Hal, you're right. I'm dumb, I meant the other left :P

[Hal]

artherd,

The caption under the picture on the website is:

.50 caliber, 9mm x 90 MEN, 7.62 x 51

Unless, I'm missing something, the .50 BMG is the one on the left.

[Jeff Timm]

There is the classic .358 Winchester, aka 9x51. Which many favor for bear.

Geoff
Who favors hunting prey animals, not predators.:cool:

[bradvanhorn]

Stupidity definitely goes both ways in gun stores.

I worked part time in a gun store for a few years, and there were many days I went home wondering if the Second Amendment really was meant for all Americans (just kidding... sort of). We had quite a few customers that knowing they owned guns simply scared the crap out of us (common sense and safety were not words in their vocabulary).

Now I just go hang out at the range/store and watch the chaos from afar. Employees, customers, doesn't matter, just wait a minute or two and you'll hear something to make you laugh. I've found it's a great way to raise my spirits at the end of an otherwise long workday...

[Ankeny]

If you think gun stores are the market cornered on misinformation, try the Internet. ;)

[DigMe]

Recently the manager of my local gun store told me that barrel length doesn't matter on a revolver as far as velocity goes because all the gases escape out of the cylinder gap. I just nodded and said "Hmmm..."

Another guy at a large gunstore/indoor range in Garland (outside of Dallas) told me that "really all 9mm ammo is +p because any ammo that breaks the sound barrier is +p." Once again...nod and "hmm."

brad cook

[Diamondback]

The real shame is when a neophyte is looking for some accurate answers to some good questions and happens to run into one of these..."pretenders." A new guy or gal looking for some guidance probably dosen't know where to go for sound direction. Its almost tragic when their vulnerability is exploited. And then the "cascade" begins..........the neophyte tells his friend ..."well the guy at the gun shop told me"..........and then his friend tells another friend.....and so on !

I know ! I've been there. More than once folks on "The High Road" have straightened me out. It's one of the reasons I value this site and its membership so highly. There is a multitude of experience and knowledge here and the best of you arn't afraid to say "I don't know".......or "just a minute let me look that up"......or " better check with so and so, he/she knows more about that than I do." Thank God there and people here who "check" their egos at the "log in" !

[tiberius]

I think that Spiff took a visit to Wild West Guns and is just poking at WinsertsillycommenthereA a little bit.

[denfoote]

Let's give this one a break, ok??
I have to admit that I had trouble manipulating the sacred tool the first time I tried to field strip my Springer!!! :what:
I learned quickly, though. ;)
If you are not into the 1911, and have no reason to mess with it, these actions would be understandable. That's why he has people working for him!!
Let's just hope that he took the time to have his employee show him how it's done!! :rolleyes:

[Ankeny]

denfoote is right. How many guys scratched their head the first time they ran into a captured full length guide rod with a reverse plug? Truth is, all of us are at different places along our learning curve. As soon as we think we have it figured out, a new wrinkle is added. It doesn't matter how much you know, or think you know, there is always more to learn.

[Wildalaska]

I think that Spiff took a visit to Wild West Guns and is just poking at WinsertsillycommenthereA a little bit.

Wow, its about time someone figgured it out, congrats Ti!


WildsillycommentinsertedAlaska

[carpettbaggerr]

He didn't use a pipe wrench on it did he? I heard about a guy who used a blowtorch and a pipewrench to disassemble 1911's. Couldn't believe it. :neener:

[Wildalaska]

He didn't use a pipe wrench on it did he? I heard about a guy who used a blowtorch and a pipewrench to disassemble 1911's.

Ya mean because it was too dirty to dissasemble otherwise?

WilddejavualloveraginAlaska

[Grayrock]

Kinda reminds me of the time I used a wood splitting wedge to remove the cylinder head off my 1st car engine. :what: :banghead:

[dairycreek]

The place where I do about 90% of my gunbiz must be owned and operated by the exception. The owner is a ex Marine sniper who saw a lot of combat, was a LEO for a long time, is an avid shooter and hunter and what he does not know about guns isn't worth knowing. Never volunteers an opinion unless he is asked and then tends to be very blunt and straightforward (no BS-ever). His only assistant is a young guy who is a sucessful local competition handgun shooter and is also quite knowledgeable. Great place to go. Must be the exception that proves the rule. Good shooting;)

[Smoke]

I once worked a stint between semesters for a local store (not gun related) that sold a variety of products. In the first week I was told: "if a customer asks a question, it means they don't know so you can tell them whatever you want to"

They weren't advocating lying, necessarily, just making a sale. Why would a gun shop be any different.

Smoke

[Sean Smith]

They weren't advocating lying, necessarily, just making a sale. Why would a gun shop be any different.

You mean other than the fact that the wrong gun can get you killed? Hard to endanger somebody's life by giving bad advice on, say, sweaters.

[CZSteve]

OK Spiff, I was gonna let ya off the hook, but I see you want your "dirty laundry exposed...

Sounds like we have a brotherly fight going on as Tiberius picked up on.

Anything to to do w/ a dirty Kimber?:scrutiny: :D

[spacemanspiff]

a *well-used and definitely broken-in* kimber, i might add.

:D

[Jim K]

If you want more nonsense and misinformation about guns than is available at your local gun shop, ask the average cop.

Jim

[Ankeny]

If you want more nonsense and misinformation about guns than is available at your local gun shop, ask the average cop.

Oh now that's really taking the "High Road." :barf:

[c_yeager]

You mean other than the fact that the wrong gun can get you killed? Hard to endanger somebody's life by giving bad advice on, say, sweaters.

If there is a gun out there that can kill me for buying it please let me know now.

[Wildalaska]

a *well-used and definitely broken-in* kimber, i might add.

Spiffy my my bro, that Kimber was dirtier than Bill Clintons mind in a room full of chubby interns!

WildhandsstilldirtyAlaska

[spacemanspiff]

a shop full of hoppes and other solvents and you still havent washed your hands????

lemme guess, the ONLY time you put on clean underwear is when you go to the doctor, huh?
:evil:

[goon]

If you want more nonsense and misinformation about guns than is available at your local gun shop, ask the average cop.

I made the mistake of calling the PA state police to ask about selling a long gun one time.
I will never call them for advice on the law again.
Not badmouthing cops as a whole.
They have a hard job to do and most do the best they can with it.
It is just that it occured to me that it would be a good idea for the police to know the laws before they were expected to enforce them.
Yeah, I know...
I am just being unreasonable.

[jrpeterman]

Of the four private local gunshops that I like to stop in, Gun Shop 1 is a Kimber dealer and doesn't have a nice thing to say about Glocks. He's a good guy, but just opinionated. The store offers gunsmithing which is a plus and has a nice selection of primarily 1911 Colts and Kimbers, rifles, and shotguns. Bought my CZ-97B from him and got a good price. Gun Shop 2 is new and not a lot of handgun inventory, mostly rifles and shotguns. His handgun inventory consists primarily of Berreta and Ruger semi-autos. The owner is a good guy, doesn't talk down any major brand, but could use better help hired for the store. Gun Shop 3 is a lot like Gun Shop 1 good guy, pretty good inventory overall, and decent prices. He has quite a few Para-Ordanance models in the case, and is fond of the .380 Kel-Tec for ccw. Doesn't have a nice thing to say about the Kimber line. Gun Shop 4 is the largest and most diverse. He carries most of the popular brands and is very knowlegable. His prices range from slightly high to fairly reasonable, and also offers gunsmithing services. Bought a LNIB Glock 19 from him. Great guy to talk guns with, just avoid discussing politics.

It's ok to get imput from others and those who have owned a particular type of auto-loader. The information can be very helpful, but don't be swayed soley on one or two peoples opinion. Especially, if they never owned or handled the gun and are just spouting off. Bottom line is do your own research, handle and inspect the guns yourself, and shop for the best price and service.

[Curley]

Speaking of preying on the uninformed, I hate it when I'm in a sporting goods store and see people paying WAY too much for guns.

I want to whisper in their ears, "Don't buy a gun here! You're paying way too much. Go to [my favorite store or online dealer] or to a gun show!" Just last weekend, I saw a guy pay $400 at a sporting goods store for a Taurus he could have bought for $300 or less elsewhere. But it wasn't my place to interfere...

It also amuses me when I see a novelist or screenwriter try to pretend he knows a lot about guns. I recently read a spy novel in which the author referred to every gun as a Beretta -- no mention of caliber, model, etc. He would simply write, "John grabbed his Beretta from the table..." or "She held her Beretta against his back..." Apparently the author had only heard of Berettas, so that was his default gun.

Dean Koontz, however, knows a lot about guns and my be a shooter himself. He always describes his characters' guns and their capabilities in great detail.

[Jammer Six]

How many guys scratched their head the first time they ran into a captured full length guide rod with a reverse plug?

I didn't scratch my head.

I just replaced it with a real, GI guide rod.

[gbourne]

Hey, Jammer Six I trained a Kelly hall. I havent thought of the Major in quite a while. Thanks

[Biff]

OK Spiff, repeat after me...

"A clean gun is a happy gun."

[1911Tuner]

Jim said:

If you want more nonsense and misinformation about guns than is available at your local gun shop, ask the average cop.

Hoo boy! I'll one-up ya and say ask the average recruit or rookie.

My brother-in-law is a WSPD Lt. and his daughter's fiance' is a rookie.
I showed him my latest build-up...slide locked to the rear, and before I can
tell him not to, he thumbs the slidestop and drops the slide...WHACK!:cuss:

When I tried to gently explain to him that that would break an autopistol, the kid condescendingly says..."No it won't" I gave him an explanation as to what could happen, and he turns sarcastic...so I put my pistol up, and turned the conversation to his service pistol...A Sig. He explained that he
drops the slide on his all the time, and it never causes a problem...
Understand that he grew up in an "Anti" family, and never handled a real
gun in his life until he went with the PD.

I've got visions of this meathead standing in front of a mirror playing with
what may ultimately be the only thing that stands between him and a trip
down The Highway of no Return. I hope that whatever breaks does it on the range or while he's playin' with it instead of the Moment of Truth.

Ah well...Ya can't make a horse drink water, but you can sure get wet tryin'...

Tuner

[Lobotomy Boy]

I have to agree about the knowledge level of younger cops. I know some really good people who are cops, but most of them are older, experienced cops, or unfortunately for us retired cops.

I make my living publishing and writing motorcycle books, including books on motorcycle safety. Thus I take a real interest in new riders. One day a few years back I was talking to a couple of local cops and one, a female, said she wanted to learn to ride and was planning to take a Motorcycle Safety Foundation class. This is a very good idea, but the bonehead with her, a guy I knew from the local motorcycle scene, told her that was BS, that he would teach her to ride. He said he'd teach her to "lay her down." "Laying her down" is a long-discredited myth about how to react in an emergency situation and while it still persists in the most uninformed circles, it is about as effective a method of dealing with an emergency as rushing a machine gun nest with a bayonette affixed to your Bersa .380.

This same cop also once misinterpretted my hair cut as a political statement and started telling me how in his locality they wouldn't stop a white guy for riding 15-20 mph over the posted limit.

I admit that I have never tried to correct this guy. I figure I'd rather have the little Nazi creep for me than against me. But neither have I ever offered him motorcycle safety advice. If he gets himself whacked while out riding, I can't say the community will be any worse off.

[pignock]

1911 Tuner said: When I tried to gently explain to him that that would break an autopistol

Disengaging the slide stop to let the slide go home on an empty chamber will break an autopistol?

I've never heard that - could you please elaborate?


Thanks,


Keith

[sundance43.5]

Letting the slide go creates a lot of stress on the gun because of the force involved. It's much worse to let the slide go on an empty chamber because it has nothing to slam up against but the frame.

Letting it go to chamber a round isn't as bad, but if you're just plinking or practicing, it might be better to release the slide manually. I'm sure some will disagree as you should practice as you would fight, in which case you'd just hit the release.

In general, unless you do this many, many times, you won't hurt the gun, but if you do do it a lot, there's a chance it could hurt the gun.

Chris

[phorvick]

It was said: "Letting the slide go creates a lot of stress on the gun because of the force involved. It's much worse to let the slide go on an empty chamber because it has nothing to slam up against but the frame."

I can't speak to non-Glock guns as I don't have the length and breath of experience that others have. But, it is my understanding that there is no problem with this practice with a Glock. I have asked that specific question to three different Golck Armorers and they all said we can do this all day and not hurt the gun.

I would like to her from other Glock people if that was correct information.

[Lobotomy Boy]

I have been told by a gunsmith that this practice is bad for 1911 guns, but not as problematic with other more modern designs.

[VG]

I don't care what the employees or customers say, as long as they don't point the various firearms under discussion at me.

The fundamental rule about all guns being unloaded seems to have been suspended. Makes me uncomfortable as anything, but I've resisted diving under any tables, yet.

[1911Tuner]

pignock said/asked:

Disengaging the slide stop to let the slide go home on an empty chamber will break an autopistol?

I've never heard that - could you please elaborate?

Surely.Look at the barrel and slidestop pin on an autopistol. When that slide goes home, the slide and barrel lock together, and are stopped by the
slidestop pin and the lower barrel lug.

On a standard 1911 with the falling link, the force of the blow is on the
back radius of the lug feet, which isn't very much metal Not only does it impact stress the feet and the pin, it stresses the whole lug, and can cause a crack to start at the junction of the lug and the barrel.

There's also impact stress at the breechface and barrel hood, and more
impact between the slide and barrel lugs.

When the lower lug feet get peened rearward, it affects the unlock and
linkdown timing of the barrel. If the barrel unlocks too late to get out of the
way of the slide, the locking lugs take a pounding, and can shear off eventually. At this point, the link is likely stretched too, which adds to the linkdown delay and accelerates the damage.

Linkless designs will tolerate this a bit better than the falling link, but
only in that it doesn't tend to delay the timing as soon because there's
more metal for the slidestop pin to bear on.

Then there's the matter of hammer/sear bounce, which can ruin the primary
sear angle and damage the hammer hooks. Glocks are immune to this
part because they're striker fired, but the lower lug and slidestop pin are
still subject to damage. No matter who says it's okay to do, it's not. It's
still unimpeded, high-speed metal to metal contact, and it's not a good thing to do to a tool that you may need to keep you alive.

Take two hardened, ball-peen hammers and beat the flat ends of the heads together 200 times and check the damage. Hardened hammers are
harder and tougher than your barrel lugs and slidestop.

Don't abuse your gun. Your life may depend on it, and it marks you as
a duffer when you're in the company of knowledgeable gun people.
To us, it's about the same as flicking the cylinder on a double-action
revolver open and closed like the Silver Screen Hero does before he
goes in after the bad guy.

Cheers!

Tuner

[FPrice]

Thank you for your great explanations. I for one have learned a lot from you. I just hope it sticks.

[MX5]

Oh boy, another cop bashing thread. Most of the cops around here are pretty squared away and they are fairly well versed with the guns they pack. I must admit the average non-gun enthusiast cop isn't a walking gun encyclopedia like the posters on THR, but I seldom if ever hear a bunch of nonsense spewing forth out of their mouths. Maybe it's a geographical thing. I live in a gun friendly state where most folks were brought up around guns.

If cops are that misinformed where you guys live then the average untrained Joe on your streets must really be ignorant. I'll bet your tactical wannabee types, mall ninjas, and arm chair commandos are really laughable.

[spacemanspiff]

and if for some reason you dont believe 1911tuner, do everyone a favor and limit your slide-releases-on-an-empty-chamber to your own gun, and dont do it to ours.

a buddy of mine just bought a bling-bling deagle in .50ae, and know what he was doing? loading rounds one at a time straight into the chamber.
he couldnt quite grasp the fact that the extractor isnt designed to go over the rim of the case like that.

but if he can afford to pay $1200 for hte gun and $1 a round i guess he can afford to replace his extractor.
:banghead:

[owen]

Aren't desert eagles push feeds, with an M16 style bolt? If they are, that is how the round feeds every time.

owen

[manwithoutahome]

1911Tuner,

How about when the cart. is fired and the slide cycles? Does the same thing happen as if you hit the slidestop or ?

M.

*no, this is not being sarcastic, I'm just wondering because if it is the same as dropping the slide, I would figure that just firing a auto-pistol is actually bad for the pistol.

[FPrice]

"no, this is not being sarcastic, I'm just wondering because if it is the same as dropping the slide, I would figure that just firing a auto-pistol is actually bad for the pistol."

I'll take a stab at this and see if 1911tuner would agree with what I have to say.

Firing a semi-auto pistol is NOT the same as dropping the slide on an empty chamber for one reason. When the slide cycles in the firing sequence, the act of stripping a round from the magazine and chambering it acts to slow the slide down to some extent and buffer the impact forces.

I don't think anyone said that dropping the slide once on an empty chamber will ruin the gun. It seems that it is the repeated act that eventually will cause problems, especially on guns modified to target accuracy standards, e.g. very light triggers.

Likewise, firing a gun thousands of times will produce wear, but at a slower rate due to the situation I mentioned above concerning stripping a round from the magazine.

ANY machine will wear out eventually. How fast depends upon how it is used. Using a machine incorrectly will cause it to wear faster. Using a machine correctly and taking care of it in the interim will help make it last a lot longer.

Anyways, that is how it has been explained to me in the past.

[1911Tuner]

Howdy manwithout ahome,

FPrice pretty well nailed that one.

As the slide strips the round, it meets resistance from the magazine.
Then the nose of the bullet strikes the top of the feed ramp and meets
resistance again. It turns upward at an angle to enter the bottom of the
barrel throat, and meets with frictional resistance. The rim cams the extractor hook open, and that bleeds off a little more energy and momentum. Finally, the minimal frictional resistance of the round seating in the chamber is also acting as a brake. All these things combine to have the
slide nearly at a stop by the time it goes to battery, so that the pin and
lower lug absorb a total of about 3 foot-pounds of energy per cycle.

When there's no ammo in the magazine to brake the slide's forward momentum, the pistol takes a pounding, and making a habit of it will
damage the gun, often beyond any reasonable repair.

Luck!

Tuner

[manwithoutahome]

FPrice and 1911Tuner,

Thanks :). Like I said, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic, just was wondering and you all answered my question perfectly and I thank you.

I'd forgotten about the resistance deal. I do know that when I'm in a store looking at auto-pistols, and the pistol is handed to me slide open, that I do close the slide using my hand to guide it in and don't just hit the slide stop. I never really noticed that I did so but for some reason it just felt like the right gunshop edicate(sp) to use.

M.

[albanian]

There are morons on boths of the counter in gunstore but it is expected of the customers. That is why they are the customers and the gunstore employee.

It is just sad to see a gunstore owner or clerk give bad or incorrect advice to someone who doesn't know any better. It is funny when they give it to you and and you DO know better.

I am not an expect on anything but sometimes I feel like I am the smartest person in the room when I go to certain gunshops.:D I have heard stuff that would make you almost cry, it is so stupid.

For example, did you know that a .303 Brit and a .308 Nato is the SAME cartridge? THey can be fired interchangeably from the same GUN!:rolleyes: I heard this when I was trying to find some .303 Brit ammo for my Enfield. I picked up a box that was military surplus and it didn't have a lable, I asked if it was indeed .303 Brit as that is what it looked like to me. The clerks had a group meeting and decided that it was .303 Brit or more commonly know as ".308 Nato", either or, I suppose.:rolleyes: .303, .308, close enough!:D The sad thing is, I bought anyway because it was .303 but I hope that they are not giving this kind of advice to everyone. Maybe I just stumped them by asking too a question.:D

[1911Tuner]

Now and idjit that can subtract knows that .308 is 5 bigger'n .303:rolleyes:

You oughta try bein' the "Smith on Duty" for a gunshop if you really wanna hear some doozies...:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[malada]

I heard a couple of funnies. The instructor that taught my CCW class was also the instructor for training deputy recruits. He said one day a recruit had actually managed to load his shotgun by putting the shells in the gun backwards! Another day he said he looked at a guy on the firing line and he had bullets sticking out of his ears. He asked what the H*LL he was doing and he replied that he had forgotten his ear plugs.

[Strings]

Ok... I've seen the "shell casings as earplugs" thing before. Told the guy he was an idiot, and handed him a disposable pair...