[Brat7748]

Had a scare at the range Saturday. My buddies Glock, (G30 .45cal) went Kaboom on him. Gun had been cleaned before we went to the range, and he had fired maybe 50 or so rounds when it happened. He was using once fired reloads. Last round in the mag ruptured near the head. He got a cut on his thumb, but the really scary part was that something came out of the gun and went through the right lens of his glasses. Had it checked out at the hospital, no damage to the eye thankfully
The gun is a different story, The mag blew out, the slide is jammed back and canted a little to the left and the left rear frame rail is gone. There is a small crack near the trigger on the left side.
All the posts about firing out of battery, unsupported chambers, and other Glocks going Kaboom make me sure I’ll never own a Tupperware gun!

[jc2]

Hard way to learn, for sure!

[Whit]

Even though your buddy used reloads, and GLOCK specifically says not to use reloads, they will probably take care of him i.e. selling him a new gun at a substancial discount. Glad he's OK. ....Whit

[chevrofreak]

its not the guns fault it exploded

[TBeck]

Was the ammo commercially reloaded or was it somebody's home brew?

Dean Speir at the Gun Zone (http://www.thegunzone.com) might appreciate some more details if you care to contact him. He is compiling a database of Glock spontaneous disassemblys.

[bountyhunter]

its not the guns fault it exploded It is if either:

1) The design is so poor it allows firing with the slide out of battery

OR

2) The cartridge is so poorly supported by the chamber that a defect in the case meand personal injury.

I've heard all the songs about how it's the ammo's fault, but the bottom line is that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to build a gun that diesn't blow your hand off if you have some bad brass.

Make mine steel, no plastic for me.:barf:

[Mr. Chitlin]

He was using once fired reloads.

Nuff said...

Always the guns fault, never the person reloading. :rolleyes:

[Lone_Gunman]

He was using once fired reloads.

Did he go to public schools? He needs to read the manual. He saved a dollar on ammo and voided his warranty. Really good idea.



Make mine steel, no plastic for me.

Plastic doesnt have anything to do with it, bountyhunter... case support does.

[tc300mag1]

Notice the 9mm never blow up wonder why that is ? Ill buy a glock 9mm but nothing above that

[Sarge]

I for one like to know about these things, whether the discussion that follows makes any sense or not.

[middy]

... I've heard about a kaboom on a message board, the next sentence is "he was using reloads".

:banghead:

Way to save a penny.

Glocks have loose tolerances and some have poor case support, I'll admit, yet I would have full faith in brand new, quality brand, factory ammo, or even once reloaded (by my own hand) ammo which I have visually inspected myself.

I don't care what kind of pistol you have, never use someone else's reloads, and carefully inspect all of your ammo.

[George Hill]

Another one? Oh dear...

Glock Bevets nail this guy hard for reloading!




:rolleyes:

[Bix]

. . . but I wonder if you could tell us a little about the glasses that failed? Were they shooting glasses or eyeglasses? Any idea what make?

[Mr. Chitlin]

I only want high quality guns, no cheap Glocks!!

http://photos.imageevent.com/brobert/hosting/websize/usp1.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/brobert/hosting/websize/usp2.jpg

[tc300mag1]

Ahh here we go again anything will blow up with bad reloads ive seen rifles wheelies and shotguns wasted.

[Shmackey]

(1) Lead or jacketed bullets?

(2) Was this G30 in the recall?

(3) What the hell flew out of the gun into this guy's eye?

[Lone_Gunman]

(2) Was this G30 in the recall?

The frame rail recall?

How would that matter in a chamber failure?

[4v50 Gary]

Mr. Chitlin - assuming the shooter was right handed, was (s)he injured when the HK went KB?

[Warbow]

Hey all. I had a Humvee and I got a good deal on some homemade gasoline (the guy said it was top notch stuff!) at a car show to use in it. My fuel system was ruined and the vehicle wouldn't run at all, so I got rid of it. I'm never going to own another Humvee again! :banghead:

[Mr. Chitlin]

Mr. Chitlin - assuming the shooter was right handed, was (s)he injured when the HK went KB?

Those are just some pics that were sent to me. I know nothing besides what you see.

[BHPshooter]

Yeah, this seems like another case of bad reloads. :rolleyes: When will people learn?

Notice the 9mm never blow up wonder why that is ?

I'll admit, I've never seen a 9mm Glock, or anything else for that matter, blow up. Not that I can't happen, I've just never heard of it.

Wes

[Andrew Wyatt]

what boggles my mind is tnot the fact that they blow up so frewuently, but thet they blow up and are non functional afterwords.

I've seen some 1911 caseheads go, and they're usually in working order within about five minutes of the incident.

[BIGBORESNUB]

Welp looks like the rush for nickle plated sissy pistols is on:uhoh:

[tiberius]

I'm guessing the root cause is a double charge. It happens if you are not VERY careful when hand loading.

I'm sick of the people saying that you shouldn't "reload" for Glocks just because the manual says so. Almost ALL manufacturers have the same warning (I would too if I was writing the manual) in hopes of avoiding litigation based on user error. Glocks (esp .40 & 10mm) can be very hard on the brass, but other than that there is NO reason not handload for them. Just be careful.

[Shmackey]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(2) Was this G30 in the recall?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The frame rail recall?

How would that matter in a chamber failure?

From the original poster:

The mag blew out, the slide is jammed back and canted a little to the left and the left rear frame rail is gone.

(Emphasis mine)

[Shmackey]

Moreover, the frame-rail recall would be especially pertinent if that missing frame rail is the thing that tried to bury itself in the shooter's eye...

[bountyhunter]

Plastic doesnt have anything to do with it, bountyhunter... case support does. You might try actually reading my post where it said:

2) The cartridge is so poorly supported by the chamber that a defect in the case means personal injury.

Glocks are notorious for designing in barrels with unsupported chambers and then latching onto the mantra: "It's the ammos fault." Well guess what, sometimes a bad round will get out even in new ammo and sometimes reloading presses are not perfect. The result should NOT be a bleeding hand and/or face. "No plastic for me" means I will never own a Glock.

[bountyhunter]

Glocks have loose tolerances and some have poor case support, I'll admit, yet I would have full faith in brand new, quality brand, factory ammo, or even once reloaded (by my own hand) ammo which I have visually inspected myself. That's really funny because last Thursday when I went to the range, the guys had all of the new PMC ammo boxes out and were checking them. It seems they found a box of ".45" where about half the box had been filled with brand new .40SW ammo. BTW, .40 ammo will fedd into and stay in most .45 mags so some poor schlub who didn't know any better could have loaded it up into his .45 and fired it. You want to own a gun that is only safe with perfect ammo? Go for it, I'll stay with the steel guns where even accidental double charge reload rounds ruin the gun but still leave you with two good hands.

[Brad Johnson]

The gun is a different story, The mag blew out, the slide is jammed back and canted a little to the left and the left rear frame rail is gone. There is a small crack near the trigger on the left side.

I've witnessed several Glock KBs in guns chambered for .40 and .357 Sig, but this is the first .45 KB I've heard of. I'm a leaning a little towards an overcharged round in this instance given the relatively low pressure of the 45 ACP and the amount of damage to the gun - especially the missing rear frame rail

In the cases I've witness first-hand, all the guns were put back in action with nothing more than a couple of replacement trigger parts (and one needed a new magazine).

Brad

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Combat tupperware designed for new ammo. If you desire to save a few $ on reloads, do not buy combat tupperware.

Those "loose tolerances" and "unsupported chamber" allow the weapon to function in mud/dirt/snow etc. where other arms may fail.

[bountyhunter]

Those "loose tolerances" and "unsupported chamber" allow the weapon to function in mud/dirt/snow etc. where other arms may fail. To anyone who actually cares, that is mixing apples and oranges.

Loose tolerances in the barrel throat will not cause a catstrophic KB like described. Even if the case ruptures, even a loose barrel throat will restrict the expansion of the case to a few thousandths of an inch and not allow unretricted hot gas flow down the grip area of the frame. Loose tolernces are not the problem, unsupported barrel throat areas are because a significant area of the case near the rim are simply exposed creating a situation where nearly all of the case is supported EXCEPT a small area which means it will rupture there and create a gas vent back into the gun.

As to why Glock barrels are unsupported? IMHO, they were stupid in the design. There is no reason a barrel must have the feed ramp cut into the area where the case will be to get good feeding. 1911's don't have this problem. Glock won't change it now because doing so would set a legal precedent which could be interpreted as an admission that the unsupported barrels were unsafe. So, aftermarket barrel makers offer Glock replacement barrels which are fully supported but Glock just keeps saying: "Nothing wrong with our gun, it's the ammo." Maybe, but they should make guns that don't take your hand off if you get some bad ammo.

BTW: I bought reload .40 from a company that got all their brass once fored from the local PD (so it was fired in Glocks). Once fired, top quality ammo: and you could see a slight bulge down by the rim on every case due to the lack of support. I never had a single round rupture, but I was shooting in a fully supported barrel (1911).

[Brat7748]

Let me see if I can answer some questions and provide more info.

1) My buddy is a college graduated (he can read), mechanically inclined (he owns, manages and operates an auto repair facility). He has reloaded thousands of rounds without prior incident.
2) Round in question was from a Winchester white box value pak that I picked up a Wally world a few weeks ago. Was once fired from my Dan Wesson Patriot 1911.
3) Reloaded on a Dillion 650 press. 3.6 gains of Hodgdon Clays powder. Copperized 230gr bullet from National Bullet. Federal 150 primer.
4) Factory stock Glock Barrel was in the gun.
5) His glasses were plastic impact “resistant” but not high strength safety glasses or shooting glasses.
6) Gun had been cleaned prior to going to the range and had fired maybe 60 rounds
7) Yes have discovered that this gun is part of the upgrade...recall...or whatever you like to call it.

[krept]

Interesting.

So lets say an all steel pistol with super tolerances gets a double charged round... does it just laugh and keep on shooting? I'd think there would be even more force applied through the magazine and possibly the grip panels. The energy has to go somewhere.

cheers

[Brat7748]

Ok now for some opinion and observation.

Could it have been a double charge? Sure “stuff happens”. Hillary could become a conservative too.

I’m no gunsmith and neither do I play one on TV; but would a fully supported chamber and an all steel gun have made a difference double charge or not? I suspect yes in several ways. In a fully supported chamber the case might not have fractured, i.e. no Kaboom. If it had gone Kaboom the mag might have been blown out in an all Steel gun, but parts likely would not have been blown back at the shooter. The rail likely did not cause the problem, but it seems to me to be a pretty good bet it was the rail that came back at him and hit his glasses. All in all not a lot of good to be said here for Glock.

[bountyhunter]

So lets say an all steel pistol with super tolerances gets a double charged round... does it just laugh and keep on shooting? I'd think there would be even more force applied through the magazine and possibly the grip panels. The energy has to go somewhere. Depends on the gun. According to some gunsmith books I read: a 1911 with a carbon steel barrel frequently survives a double charge with no damage (if it is well built). A stainless barrel will typically show bulging (and may split) and will be ruined (it also may extend out far enough to damage the slide). For that reason, some custom 1911 builders don't use stainless barrels. Stainless steel used in barrels typically is not as strong as carbon steel used for barrels, although SS formulae can be tweaked and heat treated for strength.

The reason a Glock KB directs energy so forcefully down at the magazine and grips is simple: the weak spot is at the rear and bottom of the cartridge case, so it ruptures there which makes a gas port aimed straight down at the throat end of the barrel.... right into the top of the magazine and into the mag well of the gun's frame. If that built in "weak spot" was not there and the case ruptured at the rar, the gas would go out the rear of the barrel more evenly straight back and would be inhibited by the case to thraot narrow opening... reducing the amount that goes out the back.

The energy has to go somewhere. True, but remember that big hole down the bore and out the front of the barrel? The gas is going that direction as well. If the gas motion is more restricted to the rear, more gas simply goes out the front.

[Highland Ranger]

I have several HK's (essentially problem free). I do not reload and I follow directions.

I was looking at buying a compact carry gun, USP or G30 and everytime I am about to order one I see one of these threads.

Do we have any facts here? Statistics? Or are we looking at a rehash of the one KB that happened and is making it's rounds AGAIN on the internet.

That 30 would be perfect, 10 rounds of 45 in a compact package . . . . . but I'm not willing to sacrifice my hand (or an eye).

Is there any way we can tell what the deal is here? Are we dealing with yahoo reloaders who triple charge a round and then complain or is this a common occurence? Has this ever happened with factory ammo?

[Brat7748]

Highland Ranger,

This happend Saturday April 10, 2004. See the posts I put up today Tuesday April 13. Its about all I can tell you.

[Grump]

Every single time... ... I've heard about a kaboom on a message board, the next sentence is "he was using reloads".

Then you need to get out on-line more. Check out the Dean Speir Gun Zone kB! faq. There are fewer than with reloads, but there ARE factory-ammo kB!s in every caliber above 9mm, and maybe even one or two of those (I don't remember any, just vague reports of reloads in 9x19).

Our last go-round involved the Portland Police Bureau or whatever they call themselves.

Bountyhunter:
Are we to believe that you've never heard of the reasons why IPSC shooters made the fully-ramped .38 Super barrel the "standard" for hot-rod Gov't Models? Even in .45, that gun has also done a few kB!s over the years. I've read a few reports that the grip panels splinter and cut up the shooter's hands sometimes, even with crippling results when tendons got involved.

And now we have some H7K USPs in .45 doing the same dance. I just don't remember whether any of those have also involved factory ammo.The reason a Glock KB directs energy so forcefully down at the magazine and grips is simple: the weak spot is at the rear and bottom of the cartridge case, so it ruptures there which makes a gas port aimed straight down at the throat end of the barrel.
Well, every pistol I've ever seen that did not fully support the case walls (feed ramp cuts into chamber, common on .45s) had the unsupported area in precisely the same place. Glock series guns appear from my observations to have twice as large of an unsupported area. Just look at some of Clark's case failure photos.

We know so much, but so little of it seems to get posted after these reports of kB!s.

[middy]

Then you need to get out on-line more. Check out the Dean Speir Gun Zone kB! faq. There are fewer than with reloads, but there ARE factory-ammo kB!s in every caliber above 9mm, and maybe even one or two of those (I don't remember any, just vague reports of reloads in 9x19).
Yeah, I'm familiar with the site, in fact, I'm quoted (http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/ghater2.html) there. The Gun Zone is not exactly a "message board", now is it?

:neener:

I'm not saying that kB!s only happen with reloads, just that the ones I've seen posted first-hand were all reloads.

A double-charge will blow up almost any gun. Whether it was a double charge or a weakened case exacerbated by the lack of full case support is unknown. Considering how many Glocks are out there and how many rounds get put through them each day without incident, I'm more inclined to believe it was the ammo, but I am not a kool-aid drinker... it very well may have been the pistol's fault. From reports I've heard of pitted barrels and broken frame rails I know that there are a few lemons that get through QC.

I've learned enough about the Glock to know that they are not perfect, and to be fully confident betting my life on my G19. The combination of price, durability, ease of use, simplicity of design, reliability, and corrosion resistance is unbeatable, IMHO. Dean Speir himself isn't exactly a Glock-hater.

http://clear.msu.edu:16080/dennie/clipart/thief.gif

(No, Dean, disabling the right-click menu on your web page doesn't accomplish anything. It's just slightly irritating.)
And it makes you look like a punk for taking the image anyways. Don't do that again. Thanks, G Hill Moderator

[jem375]

I doubt if it was a double charge, most likely a bulged case that came out of the gun originally and was reloaded with a weakened case.....most reloaders I know check the powder level on their loads before seating the bullet...............

[Andrew Wyatt]

The root of the problem seems to be that glocks go blam! and dissassemble themselves in situations where other guns don't.

why is this? do they use stainless barrells? are the chamber walls too thin?


I agree with what middy says about Dean; I'm a regular subscriber to Combat! and he's one of the better gunwriters out there, and my boots (http://www.thegunzone.com/people/michael.html) are pictured on his website. (yes, those are actually my boots)

In any event, the glock needs a pip kit of some sort to eliminate the kabooming problem, ASAP.

[Grayrider]

This is what keeps me from buying another Glock (I have owned several in the past). Firing out of battery and lack of chamber support are simple to fix, yet they don't do anything about it. It amazes me that in this time of everyone sueing gun manufacturers, that Glock has ridden this out without a major lawsuit from someone who had a gun blow up with factory ammo. Perhaps they have just been lucky so far, but that cannot last forever.

GR

[Lobotomy Boy]

Grayrider, this is exactly why I decided to buy a Glock. I've read enough information about Glock KBs to fill a large novel, but nothing conclusive one way or another. I have to believe that in all these years if someone could prove a case against Glock, he or she would have. Statistically it seems to be too far-fetched to be the result of Glock's "luck."

Ultimately after such research I feel like I the anti-Glock contingent is almost like a religious cult trying to convert everyone to the church of the plastic gun haters.

Sometimes Dean makes some convincing arguments at the Gun Zone, then he turns around and shoots himself in the foot by making some blatantly hyperbolic statement that discredits his earlier statements in my mind. I end up thinking of him as just another shrieking street preacher in the cult of the Anti Glock.

Meanwhile I'll continue shooting my G21 until they pull its shattered remains from my cold, dead finger.

[TBeck]

Sometimes Dean makes some convincing arguments at the Gun Zone, then he turns around and shoots himself in the foot by making some blatantly hyperbolic statement that discredits his earlier statements in my mind.

Example, please? I think "hyperbolic" may be an exaggeration on your part. :D

Dean may be many things, but hyperbolic isn't one of them. I have known Dean and read his work for about ten years now. I have never read a statement from him to the effect that "all Glocks are bad." The man owns and shoots Glocks for crying out loud! Dean may not have much use for some of Glock's management, but he has never universally condemned the Glock product line.

Jeff Cooper is anti-Glock. Dean is a shooter who has devoted a significant amount of his life energy to warning other shooters that practices they may follow for other firearms are potentially unsafe to follow in a large-caliber Glock. He does not tell readers to avoid Glocks. He tells his readers that if they use reloaded ammunition in their Glocks there are certain steps that a prudent person ought to take to reduce the odds of a kB!

If some readers walk away from The Gun Zone with the belief that avoiding Glocks altogether is the easiest answer, that is not Dean's fault. It is the fault of a management team too arrogant to fix a flawed product because it means having to admit they made a mistake.

[Blackcloud6]

Sounds like a double charge to me. I did this once and blew my Systema Colt. Its easier than you think to double charge a pistol round on a Dillon than you think.

My Colt was put back together and I am shooting it once again.. Now I am sure to look into every case after the charge throws and i ensure nothing distractes me. I ahve caught myself making mistakes when my kids come and "hey Dad wanna see my nre toy?" and whatever.

Any pictures of the ruptured case?

[dandean316]

3) Reloaded on a Dillion 650 press. 3.6 gains of Hodgdon Clays powder. Copperized 230gr bullet from National Bullet. Federal 150 primer. That's a pretty light load. Even if it was a double charge, it should have still been safe. I've shot 7.0 Clays with no problems.

A couple observations:

1) Anytime you shoot reloads it always voids the warranty. This is for all companies.
He saved a dollar on ammo and voided his warranty. Really good idea.
2) You buy a $500 gun. I buy a $750 gun I can shoot reloads through. I reload for $3.50 per 50. Even cheap smelly Wolff is double that. Are you sure you save $ buying a Glock?

3)
Those "loose tolerances" and "unsupported chamber" allow the weapon to function in mud/dirt/snow etc. where other arms may fail. Funny to hear this from the crowd who bashes 1911's - which used to all be built that way.

[jimmyjoebob]

Glock requires a "waiver of intent to sue" to be signed before they will replace your KBed weapon, however you must send it in before they tell you about the waiver, that way they have the evidence.

Eventually someone will sue who has the money to go up against them, lord knows I will donate $$ if needed. But its a crappy design flaw that Gaston is making money off of at the cost of a pound of flesh.

[bountyhunter]

Well, every pistol I've ever seen that did not fully support the case walls (feed ramp cuts into chamber, common on .45s) had the unsupported area in precisely the same place. Glock series guns appear from my observations to have twice as large of an unsupported area. Just look at some of Clark's case failure photos. Maybe it's blind luck on my part, but I own about seven autos and not one has an unsupported barrel (four 9mm and three 40's). Browning HP, Beretta 92/96, every 1911 I have seen have fully supported barrels.

Bountyhunter:
Are we to believe that you've never heard of the reasons why IPSC shooters made the fully-ramped .38 Super barrel the "standard" for hot-rod Gov't Models? Even in .45, that gun has also done a few kB!s over the years. I've read a few reports that the grip panels splinter and cut up the shooter's hands sometimes, even with crippling results when tendons got involved.
: I don't shoot .38S because it's basically a 9mm loaded up to insane pressure levels IMHO. I assume they would be subject to case ruptures because of it. I know that Govt 1911's will KB when fed a double charge, but you are WAY better off if it happens in a fully supported barrel. The point is, a double charge is pretty clearly a preventable offense, but a weak spot in a case may not be visible.

[Grump]

First 10mm cases I ever picked up at the range with severe creases at the unsupported 6 0'clock position were fired in a Colt M1911 system. The brass was offset a full half-millimeter, or about half the case wall thickness. NOT Glock.

No lawsuits because like almost every kB! I've personally heard about or read about resulted in nominal damages, and the ER visit was covered by insurance anyway.

Not worth enough to litigate. Some combination of factors, IME, makes Glocks probably twice as likely to have case failures than other makes, but with no greater severity of injury. If I were in the management, I would argue for a PIP program, regardless of the probable fact that it would provide no real return on investment that the bean counters could find. My bet is that about 2mm more slide travel and dwell time before the unlocking surfaces engage, plus keeping the disconnect and striker safety functions well-coordinated, would allow the feed ramp to be moved back from the chamber to reduce the statistically SMALL incidence of these things that should not even happen without seriously defective ammo.

Any modern gun should be able to withstand the occasional bad round that the factories produce.

[Newton]

9mm Glock = good

other caliber Glock = bad

It's a simple rule that will one day save your shooting hand/eyesight/guy in the next stall.


Newton

[LynnMassGuy]

Notice the 9mm never blow up wonder why that is ? Ill buy a glock 9mm but nothing above that

I don't think many people reload 9mm. No reloads=no kabooms. Where there is reloaded ammo there are accidents. I doubt many guns have blown up using factory loaded ammo.

[Sarge]

PLENTY of .40 & above Glocks, that have came unwound with factory ammo. I watched a string of NCIC teletypes from LE agencies, describing LE guns that blew up during range exercises- which are generally pretty detailed as to ammunition & conditions. They began about the time the .40 Glocks were introduced, and continue to pile up.

It ain't JUST the ammo.

[cracked butt]

Sounds like a piss poor design to me. Its getting to the point that I am no longer shocked when the weekly report of Glock KBs comes out.
handloads or not, there shouldn't be enough unsupported case in the chamber to allow for a catastrophic failure within reasonable loads. I've voided the warrantees of all my guns and reload for all of them and have never had a problem with caseheads blowing off, stocks shattering, bolts sticking out of my forehead, or loosing fingers/eyes, then again I don't own a GLock and never will.

I did have one KB however. It was with "remanufactured" ammo that looked like a double charge, but that was at least 2000 rounds ago in the gun.

[Carbon_15]

Copperized 230gr bullet from National Bullet
IIRC from my reloading days, aren't plated bullets loaded with different data than jacketed bullets? I seem to remember hreading somewhere that they should be treated like solid lead bullets. Not really sure since I never used them.

middy, Dean is probly prepairing his legal papers as we speak. Your flagrant copyright infringment must be prosecuted or everyone would steal from his sight.:p

[George Hill]

So what do you call Gold Dot bullets? :scrutiny:

[Sean Smith]

Well, here is a specific case (no pun intended) where all the braying about "case support" is just ignorant.

Why? Almost NOBODY makes a .45 ACP autoloader that has much in the way of case support. Certainly a standard 1911 with the completely unramped barrel has lots of exposed brass at the web of the case. That goes double for any 1911 throated to feed hollowpoints or semi-wadcutters. Why? Because with ammo that isn't double-charged, a .45 ACP doesn't need it.

Think about it: how many MILLIONS of those are out there that haven't blown up? When is the last time that you heard about a .45 ACP 1911 kB! that wasn't 100% shooter (shooting into an obstructed bore) or loader (double-charging Bullseye or similar fast powder) error?

The .45 ACP is loaded to 21,000 PSI. .45 ACP +P is 23,000 PSI. By way of comparison, 9x19 and .40 S&W are 35,000 PSI, 10mm is 37,500 PSI and .357 Sig is over 40,000 PSI. There is a reason why .45 ACP guns of almost every description don't blow up: the pressure just ain't there. Unless, of course, you double-charge the case. And the nasty thing is, a double-charge isn't necessarily a linear increase in pressure. Bullet setback or over-seating the bullet can also produce considerable changes in pressure under certain conditions. So a .45 ACP double-charge might not be 42,000 PSI, but more like 60,000 PSI. Heck, there is probably room in the .45 ACP case to triple-charge with certain powders.

Of course, lots of .38 Supers that were handloaded overpressure on purpose to make USPSA Major blew up 1911s until ramped barrels with more case support were introduced. That's what you get for taking a case that is +P at 35,000 PSI and loading it to 40,000 or so ON PURPOSE. But "super face" stories are something for another time.

It could still be the Glock's fault, but almost certainly not because of case support in this case.

[JohnKSa]

Maybe some copper plated--I mean "copperized"--bullets are different, but the ones I've had experience with were no better than plain lead.

The absolutely worst case of barrel leading I've ever encountered was with some "copperized" bullets. Turned my Beretta into a smoothbore in less than 50 rounds.

[crewchief]

Somebody in this thread said, "any double charged .45 will kaboom". Well I have seen a P90 take a double on accident and laugh at it. Had it been a Glock "Hand Confetti" if it were a 1911 maybe a damaged slide rail or a little worse, but the Ruger not a damn thing. Sure it is bulky and heavy and maybe ugly to some but it is bar none the most solidly built .45 period. Now don't get me wrong I do own some 1911's and such but out of all guns I shoot I am never afraid to shoot that tank. If there is a more solidly built .45 out there prove it show me, and I will show you a picture of Rosie O' Donnell cleaning her AR wearing a I LOVE THE NRA shirt.

[Carbon_15]

http://pdmall.com/CZC/97b.jpg
Ok..your turn:p

[crewchief]

Hey carbon good one I like the CZ but my vote still goes to the Ruger:p I am actually considering my next purchace being the CZ, but my wife wants a .357 for CCW carry. God I love that woman, she was a MP and is not afraid to shoot anything......well maybe the S&W 500, but she is one of the best skeet shooters male or female.:neener:

[dandean316]

Had it been a Glock "Hand Confetti" if it were a 1911 maybe a damaged slide rail or a little worse, but the Ruger not a damn thing. I've double charged 1911's - accidently and on purpose. No problems.

I'm not saying to double charge, but the Ruger isn't the only gun that will take the double.

[crewchief]

I hear you Dan and I know that alot of 1911 will stand up to it that is why I own some, but why would you want to double charge on purpose?

[gyp_c2]

...I seem to remember something about "lead" reloads being the supposed trigger to the KBs in the beginning...anybody else remember it being attributted to lead bullets?
It's a given that a x2 , x3, etc. can cause this, but it appears that each of these took place after 50rds or so had been fired, just about enough to start leading up and drying up the gun...so what reason would there be for jacketed rds to explode other than an overcharged case? Unless there was something else wrong that just hadn't been detected yet, I'm not buying just random events...
If ever there was a case for forensics!... this would be a great way to become a star in that field of endeavor, break the case of the exploding pistol...

http://mysmilies.ipbfree.com/s/contrib/geno/rofl.gif

[Arc Angel]

:rolleyes: If I may, I'd like to get in on this. I have to ask; ‘What is it about owning a Glock that seems to create this, ostrich with his head in the sand, ass in the air, mentality?’ If someone said the brakes on my Blazer aren’t as good as the brakes on my Bronco, most drivers would, simply, want to know more. However if any sort of statement diminishing the safety or reliability of a Glock pistol is made, then, the most intense owner/user passions seem to be aroused!

Historically, it has, now, been well-established that Glock pistols have more of a propensity to explode than many other manufactures or designs. (Which, by the way, also blowup on occasion, but without the same apparent frequency.) In reading about Glock pistols, ‘across the boards’ I’ve come to the personal conclusion that many Glock owners would be less upset if told that their spouses had been caught cheating rather than Glock pistols are easy to blow up. It’s incredible!

This often reported, frequently ignored, and usually rationalized propensity for Glock pistols to explode is exacerbated by several criteria particular to Glock’s design: (1) excessively rebated chambers, (2) sharp edges around the chamber, ‘leade’ area, (3) tight polygonal hammer-forged barrels, and (4) the use of modern high pressure cartridges in Glock pistols: i.e., 357SIG, S&W 40, 10mm, and (also) the 45ACP. (I hesitate to include the 45ACP cartridge, here, because I am of the opinion that: owner neglect, and (maybe) a bad batch of barrel steel are outstanding factors involved in 45ACP Glock pistol explosions.)

I never cease to be amazed at the almost total lack of common sense regarding the use of Glock pistols that I read across the various shooting forums. If someone said; ‘I drove my car for more than 100,000 miles without changing the oil.’ we’d, all, know what to think. (I don’t, even, need to explain – do I!) However, when some shooter brags; ‘I have shot my Glock for more than 5,000 rounds without cleaning it.’ the typical response seems to be; ‘Wow!’ What has happened to: shooting experience, military training, and good old fashioned (not so common) common sense? At this juncture, ‘Why’ even bother using Remington Golden Sabres or Speer Gold Dots in the pistol? This filthy dirty, badly neglected pistol may not fire, or else it may explode - anyway! Frankly, I doubt that the boys on, ‘Seal Team #6’ carry their pistols in this sort of crummy condition; yet, this sort of braggadocio is, both, accepted and common at far too many Glock forums!

Is anything said, so far, a recommendation to get rid of your Glock pistols? No! Not in this author’s intent! ‘What’ I am stating, here - ‘What’ I am recommending - is for Glock owners to become more aware of the pluses and minuses associated with the use of modern Glock pistols. I would encourage all Glock owners to use their Glock pistols the same way they operate their automobiles: with care, skill, and knowledge. To be perfectly candid, (which I, often, hesitate to be) I love my Glock Model 21’s. I’m very fond of the trigger design as well as the balance of this pistol design. (I do have certain reservations about Glock’s, ‘safe-trigger’ design; but this is a subject for another post.) Let me offer the following suggestions for the safe use of a Glock pistol:

(1) Use common firearms’ sense: Keep your Glock pistol properly lubricated as well as reasonably clean.

(2) Develop an acute sense of awareness about keeping your finger outside the trigger guard. Always use a holster that completely covers a Glock’s trigger guard area; and, if you carry unconventionally, take the precaution of installing a, ‘Saf-T-Blok’ device behind the trigger. I keep several, ‘Saf-T-Bloks’ around the house; if I have a Glock pistol lying about, then, I make sure there’s a, ‘Saf-T-Blok’ installed behind the trigger. Just so you know, I have found that using one of these safety devices adds ZERO TIME to the draw.

Remember important (frequently un:discussed) points like; ‘If you drop a Glock pistol, DON’T attempt to catch it before it hits the ground.’ You might snare the trigger guard if you should attempt this and fire the pistol. Remember that the Glock design precludes firing on impact – so just let that Glock fall.’

(3) At least once a year, do a complete detail strip of your Glock pistol(s). Pay particular attention to the trigger connector bar and trigger spring, as well as the slide and its internal areas. I clean out my extractor rod and firing pin channels with Q-Tips or pipe cleaners every 1,500 rounds. Clean and take a close look at the following slide components: the f.p. safety block, extractor, extractor spring & rod, the firing pin assembly - including the f.p. itself, the f.p. spring, the retainer cups, and surrounding spacer. If any of the parts in, either, the trigger group or slide show the slightest sign of wear, replace it before shooting the pistol again.

(4) Listen to the manufacturer, (Glock) who isn’t always to be ignored; and don’t shoot lead bullets in your Glock pistol. Yes, I know, ‘Harry the frequent poster’ over at GT does it all the time; but you should NOT.

(5) Use more than average care if you reload for a Glock pistol; and I strongly recommend taking the time to run your reloads through a nice tight case gauge (Dillon) before you package them for use. (If your experience is similar to my own, you will occasionally be surprised at what you find and very glad the offending reload didn’t make it into your Glock. I’ve, also, spoken with other Glock pistol shooters who have all told me, essentially, the same thing: Not one of them shoots reloads in his Glock pistol using the same brass beyond the sixth (6th) time. Personally, I think this is an excellent rule-of-thumb; I use it myself; and I, also, recommend it for other Glock owners who insist on reloading for a Glock, as well.

(6) If you use a Glock pistol in one of the previously mentioned, ‘high pressure’ cartridges, then, develop the habit of NOT re:chambering the same round twice; and, no matter how many GT’ers are doing it, DO NOT reload or use reloads for any of these calibers. I’m not saying this can’t be done; obviously it can. I am stating that it’s, just, not worth the increased risk; and let’s not forget that the manufacturer (who isn’t always to be ignored) states across-the-board NOT TO RELOAD FOR A GLOCK PISTOL. (At this point, here’s a, ‘tip of the hat’ to the dummy, ‘Glockophile’ who’s going to come back at me with; ‘This is nothing more than legal boiler-plate.’ As of February, 2004, it should be painfully obvious that IT IS NOT.)

(7) For the record, I think it’s about time that someone pointed out that it isn’t, simply, unsupported cases or powder overcharges that will, ‘kaBoom!’ a Glock. IT’S BULLET SETBACK – INSTEAD! A Glock reloader can scrupulously examine his case heads for expansion, be meticulously accurate with his powder charges, and STILL BLOW HIS GLOCK UP IN HIS FACE!

(8) The other critical point about reloading for a Glock is BEING ABLE TO GUARANTEE THE GRASP OF THE CRIMP - EVERY TIME - ON EVERY ROUND.

With repetitively fired brass, this is not, always, an easy thing to do. In spite of the constant recommendations by several loudmouthed, ‘Glockophiles’ who frequently post, ‘Get a set of Lee FCD dies.’ (factory crimp dies) FCD’s aren’t going to save you from the dangers of using out-of-specification brass in a Glock pistol. FCD’S WILL, ONLY, REDUCE THE FREQUENCY OF INCORRECTLY ASSEMBLED BRASS GOING, ‘KaBOOM!’ IN THE FIRST PLACE!

People who shoot Glock pistols need to understand that:

KaBOOMS! ARE MORE OFTEN CAUSED BY LOOSE CRIMPING AND/OR BULLET SETBACK THAN BY BULGED CASEHEADS, OR POWDER OVERCHARGES! Add any or all of the other factors I've mentioned into this mix and that, 'kaBoom!' is absolutely guaranteed!

Although I fully recognize that kids aren’t going to stop smoking grass, and, ‘Glockophiles’ usually can’t be reasoned with, nevertheless, I sincerely hope that you enjoy shooting your Glock pistol(s) as much as I like to shoot mine; and (because I hate to see women cry) that you, also, shoot your Glock with wisdom and safety, too. Good luck to you!

Note: (Yes, it is, ‘kaBoom!’, ‘KaBOOM!’ or, ‘kB!’ – Not any of the other frequent misspellings we, so often, see. Dean Speir invented the word; and he’s the ultimate authority on how it should be spelled! These are the ways HE spells it.) ;)

[crewchief]

Gyp,

I was in my dealer about a month ago and the Glock rep was there at the same time and when he was alone I asked him about the KB's. He said that it was attributed to reloded ammo using lead bullets and the barrel design. I also asked what the deal was with the Tacoma PD turning in all of their guns because of the two KB's that they had in ond month. His reply was that the police chief has refused to send in the firearms for examination and that because of that they were determining that is was an error on the PD part and not theirs(what type of error he did not specify). At this point he was getting a little red in the face because I kept battering him with questions and he could not come up with enough excuses, oh I mean answers. Anyhow I think that he left a little PO'd at me but I don't care he is the one that did not have the answers.

[tiberius]

(4) Listen to the manufacturer, (Glock) who isn’t always to be ignored; and don’t shoot lead bullets in your Glock pistol. Yes, I know, ‘Harry the frequent poster’ over at GT does it all the time; but you should NOT. Wheres does Glock provide this warning against lead?

Thanks,

[dandean316]

but why would you want to double charge on purpose? See the posts by CLARK.

[TaxPhd]

"People who shoot Glock pistols need to understand that:

KaBOOMS! ARE MORE OFTEN CAUSED BY LOOSE CRIMPING AND/OR BULLET SETBACK THAN BY BULGED CASEHEADS, OR POWDER OVERCHARGES! Add any or all of the other factors I've mentioned into this mix and that, 'kaBoom!' is absolutely guaranteed!"

How, after the fact, can it be determined that a KB was caused by bulet setback, or a double charge?




Scott

[Island Beretta]

I have had a G19 kb on me. Even as I write this I am looking at the scar on my hand. I was firing reloads but it appeared as if the primary cause was that the gun was dirty and so it wasn't locking up as tight as it should. An out of battery shot did not provide the necessary case support and coupled with the already stressed casing it was a recipe for disaster. It was not as bad as the .40 kbs I have seen as the only damage sustained was to the magazine release and the extractor although it did spray debris all over inlcuding my glasses, face and mouth. Smoke trails from the gun was present for quite a few seconds. The explosion shifted my grip on the gun and I got cut by the slide.

It truly was a scary experience!! Even after the gun was repaired I was tentative about firing it again.

With regards to reloads, this is common practice when firing large quantities of rounds as it is just too expensive to go with shop ammo. Ask any top shooter and they will tell you they practice with reloads.

These are the things I have learned about Glocks and it may surprise a few:

1. Keep them clean.
2. Keep the springs healthy-positive lockup and consistently powered firing pin strikes are very important to the safety and operation of the gun.
3. Do not dry-fire extensively without a snap cap.
4. Ensure a positive grip.

Also on the old TFL forum we do have a bit of technical discussions on this issue. Dig it up if you feel the need!!

[sturmruger]

I will start off by saying that I do not own any glock pistols. I have shot a couple of Glocks, but was not really impressed with them. I am planning on purchasing a G26 in the near future that was one Glock I was really impressed with.

I know Glock is one of the best selling pistols brands in the US, I think we can chalk allot of these KBs up to one thing. There are more Glocks out there then anything else. Why keep blaming KBs on just Glock. Let's look at this mathematically. Let say just for our discussion that 0.001% of all pistols KB at some point. Then let’s assume that Glock has 40% of market, if everyone else has a 5-10% market share that means that Glock is having 4-8 times as many KBs as any other manufacturer. If you are on the internet and read all of the Glock KB stories it is going to sound like Glock has a real problem. The only problem I can see is Glock being the biggest. I sell wireless phones at the retail level. I also handle returns and phone warranties. It really doesn’t matter what phone manufacturer you buy 4-5% of all phone need to be send in for repair. There is not getting around that figure. I am sure the same can be said for guns. There has to be a national average. Whatever that figure is, it is rational to believe that whoever has the most guns out there in the publics hands will suffer the most catastrophic problems.

It isn’t a polymer problem it is a math problem!!!

[Sarge]

So where were all these inevitable, gonna-happen-no-matter-what KaBooms before the .40+ Glocks hit the market- and why weren't we seeing all those NCIC teletypes before they did? :uhoh:

[45auto]

The amount of Glock's sold would have an effect on the number of KBs in total, no doubt. The more sold, the more chance of having a problem.

The disturbing ones are the 45 KBs. That's a low pressure round and sales of Glock 45's would be dwarfed by the 1911 variants.

Also, it may be that I don't shoot enough or I travel in a different shooting crowd, but I have never experienced, seen, or know anyone that has a real KB, splitting bbls or frames, black smoke and all that. Bad ammo, duds, dribble out of the bbl type of problems is not all that uncommon.

And I don't expect to have one, I don't think it's "part" of the shooting experience with reasonable care and proper guns. Arc Angel may have some valid points.

Just watch, after saying all that, the next time I go shooting...:eek:

[mete]

Arc Angel, you,ve got the story straight. Somewhere on the internet there is info on pressure vs setback ,the one number I remember is setback of the 40 of .100" will DOUBLE the pressure !!...Lead bullet problems are caused by lead deposits at the front of the chamber preventing full seating therefore more unsupported case. Other dirt can do the same thing.... Count the times you have reloaded the cases and disgard at an appropriate number.Cut cases open to see and measure thinning to determine that number......When I was doing gunsmithing for bullseye shooters and they brought me 22 autos that wouldn't work I would ask 'when was the last time you cleaned it?' often the response was 'maybe a year ago'.Typically the pistols only needed a cleaning...When I bought my Benelli I asked the gunsmith about maintenance, he said that at least 50% of the shotguns returned because they wouldn't work only needed a cleaning.

[Arc Angel]

:) Question #1: ‘Where does Glock provide this warning against lead?’ Answer: In the owner’s manual.

Question #2: ‘How, after the fact, can it be determined that a KB (sic) was caused by bullet setback, or a double charge?’ Answer: By investigation and analysis. Where setback is the culprit, sometimes other rounds have been found that are, also, setback or loosely crimped.

Island Beretta: Right on! That’s good advice. Sorry you had to learn the hard way. Just so you’re aware, there is a thread over at, ‘Gun-Talk.com’ that addresses problems with the internal components of Glock slides. It discusses some of the reasons, ‘Why’ I clean out and inspect my Glock slides every 1,500 rounds, or so. Here’s the link: http://gun-talk.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000701;p=2

By the way, I deliberately didn’t mention, ‘firing out of battery’ in my previous post because the suspected causes are as diverse as they are controversial. (I’m really not looking for a fight.) I do, however, very much like your first hand explanation (No pun intended.) of what happened with your Model G-19. So far, in spite of everything I’ve heard as well as a number of adamant denials, I am, still, NOT convinced that Glock pistols cannot, ‘slam-fire’; and I continue to watch the boards for evidence.

Sarge: To quote you verbatim; ‘So where were all these inevitable, gonna-happen-no-matter-what KaBooms before the .40+ Glocks hit the market- and why weren't we seeing all those NCIC teletypes before they did?’

Yup! Is it OK if I quote you from time to time? I fired Colt GM 1911’s for more than 40 years without experiencing a single kaBoom! in any of my pistols or those used by any other shooters that I knew. Sure, every now and then, you heard about an overcharge or a bullet stuck in the barrel; but it wasn’t until the advent of, ‘plastic pistols’ in 1985 that, both, the frequent phenomenon of mysteriously exploding pistols and the word, ‘kaBoom!’ began to appear with the, ‘regularity of rain’.

Mete: Thanks for the vote of confidence. I’m not an easy guy to impress; but I would like to compliment those of you who’ve replied so far. The responses have been far more circumspect and objective than I, frankly, anticipated. Who knows? If Glock owners keep this up, the mystery of, ‘exploding plastic pistols’ may, one day, be cleared up! That would be nice, now, wouldn't it. ;)

[jc2]

Question #1: ‘Where does Glock provide this warning against lead?’ Answer: In the owner’s manual.
Only very recently (within the last one to two years). I have a Glock (and have had several more), and none of the manuals include any warning concerning the use of lead bullets.

[Powderman]

That's a pretty light load. Even if it was a double charge, it should have still been safe. I've shot 7.0 Clays with no problems.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but if you are loading 7.0 grains of Clays with a 230 grain bullet, you are shooting a bomb.

The max load from the Hodgdon website for Clays for the 230 grain bullet is 4.0 grains. Period. You risk grave injury or death with a load that is 3.0 over the published max.

Maybe some copper plated--I mean "copperized"--bullets are different, but the ones I've had experience with were no better than plain lead.

Amen.

I went directly to the source--a lengthly phone call to Glock in Smyrna, GA. This is what I learned there, and also from a Glock Armorer's school:

The factory barrel on Glocks are done using polygonal rifling. This is accomplished by placing a barrel blank on a mandrel with the reverse image of the rifling. This is then placed in a rotary hammer machine, and has the h-e-double toothpicks beaten out of it. The mandrel is then removed.

The result? An extremely smooth barrel. Smoother internal finish than grease on glass. So smooth in fact that lead or copper plated bullets actually skid across the first part of the bore before accepting the rifling. This builds up quickly, and eventually will cause the bullet being fired to hang up momentarily in the bore. When that happens, the pressure has to go somewhere.

So far, I have loaded more than 20K rounds for that most troublesome of calibers, the .40 SW. All of it is fired from two Glock handguns.

I have never bulged a case, and I have never blown up a Glock. Why?

I do NOT load to the max. EVER.
I make sure the round is assembled correctly.
I use medium burning powders in the .40. I especially like Herco, Blue Dot and AA #7.

If you MUST shoot lead, spend a few bucks. Get a conventionally rifled barrel.

[artherd]

1) My buddy is a college graduated (he can read), mechanically inclined (he owns, manages and operates an auto repair facility). He has reloaded thousands of rounds without prior incident.
2) Round in question was from a Winchester white box value pak that I picked up a Wally world a few weeks ago. Was once fired from my Dan Wesson Patriot 1911.
3) Reloaded on a Dillion 650 press. 3.6 gains of Hodgdon Clays powder. Copperized 230gr bullet from National Bullet. Federal 150 primer.

Your friend must have fed a double-charge, depsite his 'pedigree'.

He was also stupid enough to use fired brass from a DIFFERENT gun than his.

Did you say "copperised?" Is he aware those are not much different than lead?


Aparently he CAN'T read.


Does he get pissed when his new porsche gets ruined because he put leaded gas in?

Does he sue Ford when his F-350 disel explodes after he puts 97 octane in?

[Sarge]

Thanks- and you can quote me anytime you want, as long as I'm right. Like you, I shot the 1911 and shot it a LOT for close to 20 years. I reloaded for it, experimented with 255 grains SWC's, and generally crowded the envelope on occasion. I even bulged a little brass 'along the learning curve'. No KaPleweys. Never knew of one, within my LE circle and other friends, during that time- many of whom became diehard 1911 people.

The .40+ Glocks hadn't been on the market 5 years, and that same circle of folks produced three of them. Good friend of mine 'powdered' a 10mm Glock on the first shot, with a reload that had given fine service in Colt Deltas. Two .40's popped on regional police ranges- factory loads. And then there are those annoying NCIC bulletins over the years.

I don't hate Glocks. One of the best shooting, most reliable little .45's I ever lit up was an early G-30. An officer had brought it to a range exercise I was running, and asked me to check it for sight regulation. I couldn't seem to miss the head of a B-27 with it at 20 yards. That officer offered to sell it to me at a good price a few months later, and I really hated to turn it down.

Why did I? Because I just don't trust the dang things not to crack up. There isn't ANY brand or type of gun that I am so enamored with, that I would carry it into harm's way- knowing that it might suffer a catastrophic failure, when it was needed most. Somebody could die as a result, and it just might be me.

I honestly don't know how the people, responsible for arming police departments with these things, sleep at night. I flat won't carry one (in .40 or bigger) and when the day comes that I don't have a choice anymore, it'll be time to move on.

Good visiting with you all on this- thanks for keeping it civil.

[Brat7748]

artherd

Take a swim in the bay and cool off

[wally]

GMC deisels can be run on gasoline in an emergency without blowing up.

--wally.

[BluesBear]

That's strange. On an episode of the TV series Batman they spelled it KA-BOOM?

[Rockstar]

wally, did you ever run a GMC or any other diesel on gasoline? How long did it run?

[Dean Speir]

Arc Angel writes: Question #1: ‘Where does Glock provide this warning against lead?’ Answer: In the owner’s manual. As jc2 sugests: Only very recently (within the last one to two years). I have a Glock (and have had several more), and none of the manuals include any warning concerning the use of lead bullets I have never (and no, that's not hyperbole!) seen this addressed in any of the Glock Manuals dating back to 1986… several years ago I challenged Glock's Chris Edwards on this and defied him to show me where in the manual it was so stated, and he couldn't because, unlike Ragu, it isn't in there!

Where it is specifically addressed is in the Glock Annual, the vanity book published every January by Harris (Combat Handguns, etc.) It's been included as a Q&A for at least the past two years, and explains about the polygonal barrels and lead!

I imagine that the next time the gnomes of Deutsch-Wagram get around to printing a new manual, it will finally be included.

[Tag]

The manual that came w/ my Glock 17 stated clearly in red lettering that shooting lead was a bad idea. Purchased new over a year ago.

[tiberius]

The manual that came w/ my Glock 17 stated clearly in red lettering that shooting lead was a bad idea. Purchased new over a year ago.
Tag,

What page number please. I just bought my GF a G17 for Xmas and my manual does not seem to have such a warning.

thanks

[Rockstar]

I'd still like to know how long a GM diesel will run on gasoline! :)

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Probably long enough to buy a new one ;)

[Clean97GTI]

Not all plastic guns have these problems. I'm happy to say that my FN Forty-Nine in .40S&W sports a fully supported chamber and the manual says it is designed with safety limiuts well above SAAMI specs.

I think a few safety precautions would help in these cases
1. Only fire your own reloads
2. Inspect every round you put in the gun
3. If something doesn't feel/look/sound/smell right...STOP!