[Baba Louie]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,117025,00.html

Well, we know he/we won't cut and run in Iraq ala Somalia, he believes in establishing some form of free democratic nation to help stabilize the mid east and he did not fall into the "Will you say you're sorry to the American People for 9-11" trap several reporters tried hard to lead him into. That Iraq is part of the WoT but not the culmination.

I was impressed with his sincerity. He's not a great communicator, but does come across as a regular guy of sorts. One who listens to advice and leads.

Some (like my yellow dog democrat Mom) would persecute him for lack of pre-emptive strike against the alQ in Afghanistan, then persecute him for his pre-emptive strike in Iraq.

What did you think?

edited for spelling...

[FPrice]

"What did you think?"

I think he is sincere, if "misguided" in some of his statements (signing the renewal of the AWB, amnesty for illegals, etc.).

I also think he is the best man for the job. At least the best of the potential candidates we will see in November. And still better than many others.

[Viking6]

I hate to watch him speak but he's got my vote and support.

[ClonaKilty]

He really needs to do more of these. There were several moments when his passion really came through -- when he was unscripted, and not trying to censor himself (no "ummm" or "uhhhh...").

This is only his THIRD press conference in 4 years! He needs to do MANY more of these. Both Reagan and Clinton showed Press Conferences can be used to great effect to further your beliefs, no matter how much the press corps hates you.

He'll lose this election unless he communicates more, and better, to us. And he really doesn't have much time left.

[Baba Louie]

Didn't like his use of the term "Occupied"... he was right of course, "I wouldn't like it if we were occupied"... I keep hoping that we are in fact "liberating" the Iraqi people and giving them a chance to make a proper (for them) selection of government leaders... but figure that some Islamic Ayatolleh will probably get a religious party elected fair and square and begin chanting "Death to the Great Satan" in the streets. You only have to look to their neighbor to the east for that.

The other big fear/question is to focus on just Iraq/WoT when there are a few things at home that need fixin' and if he spreads himself too thin on either one, or conversely, focus' on one more than the other, a less than successful outcome will dis-satisfy all the naysayers here and abroad... and there are plenty of those, neh?

I think the biggest lair of bad guys is still in Saudi Arabia and Iran and I don't know if success in Iraq can silence or convert them... should make them a bit uneasy tho'... and will guarantee that they expend a little effort in bringing Iraq back into their fold, as opposed to flying into tall buildings here in the US.

And I agree that he should have a few more Press Conferences in the upcoming months. Only 7 months to the November elections.

Oughta be interesting.

[Pete45]

Does anyone know where I can find a transcript of the President's press conference on the internet? I missed it last night on t.v. :mad: and I'd like to read it. CNN.com usually has transcripts of the Presidential addresses, but I can't find anything there.

Thanks,
- Pete45

[molonlabe]

Here
http://www.foxnews.com/
oops it's a video.

[Leatherneck]

I was impressed with his sincerity. He's not a great communicator, but does come across as a regular guy of sorts. One who listens to advice and leads I agree, as with several others' comments. Last nihjt made up my mind. Despite my having voted for him the first time, I was not yet convinced he deserved my vote next November. I am now.

There is that pesky AWB question lurking, however; that's about the only thing that could convince me to throw fed.gov into turmoil by electing the Ketchup guy. :barf:

TC
TFL Survivor

[Baba Louie]

Pete45,
Cick on the link I offered on the initial post and you'll at least get the first 17 minutes of his speech portion of the 1 hour total. I'm still looking for the Q/A transcript...

[Black Dragon]

Leatherneck - That pesky AWB question that you have..... I've had it as
well. What I see is a person that is trying to play both ends towards the middle.
He tells the Anti's that he will sign the new AWB if it gets to his desk,
Knowing that the Right controlled congress will never allow the bill to make
it to him.
So, the anti's think that He is kinda on their side cause he would have
signed the bill had those mean people in congress not stopped it.
We pro's (or a large number of them) think no problems, the AWB sunsets
and we are set.
Bush ticks off as few as possible while still getting as many votes from both
the right and the left.

At least that's the way I look at it :rolleyes:

[fix]

I thought he beat the leftist reporters like a drum. He refused to be sidetracked, and he stayed "on point" for the duration. He made them look like fools. We basically saw the first Kerry/Bush debate. John Kerry just used surrogates.

[Atticus]

Watching him "not think on his feet" is extremely painful for me to watch. Any confidence I had in him prior to last night is mostly gone now. I do think he is a better leader than he is a speaker....but the bar is set pretty low on that one.
I was expecting him to offer some sort of plan for Iraq - instead he told us that he "knows what freedom is...because he lives in the US ...and we have freedom here" ??? :uhoh: :uhoh:
Then came the part about "Freedom granted by the Almighty and the American duty to deliver it to the world." Sounds like New World Order meets Jerry Falwell to me. He's still a better choice than Kerry...but we deserve better.

[R.H. Lee]

He needs to be more articulate and forceful, IMHO. He needs to define the enemy as the group of murderous thugs they are. Remind the world that these radical elements hold no value for human life; they strap explosives to their women and children for the purpose of killing and maiming other women and children. That they have co-opted and perverted a religion, but they are not religious; rather they seek submission and domination through fear and death. That they are not confined to any nation-state but cross international boundaries; that they are organized and well funded; that Al-Quaida, Hamas, and Hezbollah are some of their names, but they are all one and the same with the same purpose and tactics.

He needs to explain again the benefit of our presence in Iraq in terms of our own national security; this is the part of the world from which this evil emanates; our military presence there will begin to dissolve their strength;it is better for our trained and armed troops in Iraq to be targeted rather than civilians on U.S. soil by these madmen;

And although the events of the last week make it seem we have accomplished little; on the contrary, Fallujah is in the heart of the Sunni triangle, a last bastion of the old regime; represents a last desperate attempt by these killers to intimidate us; fear, intimidation and terror are their means. Re-state the benefits to the Iraqi people only as ancillary to our national interests.

He needs to state and re-state and re-state this again and again, reinforcing the extreme danger to U.S. citizens emphasizing our survival; pointing out the almost daily terror attacks in Israel who is only trying to co-exist with these elements.

He needs to list the measures his administration had undertaken to prevent further attacks domestically.

He should not have allowed his press conference to be hijacked by reporters wanting him to admit mistakes, nor should he have focused solely on Iraq. He should have listed the signs of a strengthening economy, etc. etc.

He needs to come from a position of strength and act like he is in charge; lead, not react.

Just my .02

[Lennyjoe]

There is that pesky AWB question lurking, however; that's about the only thing that could convince me to throw fed.gov into turmoil by electing the Ketchup guy.
Not to rough anyone up but do you actually think its gonna be any better under Kerry?

If Kerry wins its gonna be hell for us military guys. Gonna issue us blue helmets and change our nametapes to U.N. Air Force or U.N. Army instead of U.S.

[Il Duce]

Then came the part about "Freedom granted by the Almighty and the American duty to deliver it to the world." Sounds like New World Order meets Jerry Falwell to me.

I was pretty surprised that he had the courage to say that. Not many politicians would say that nowadays. I liked it. :p

Considering the D of I states specifically that our inalienable rights are given by the "Creator", I wouldn't say it sounds like a "'New' World Order"

Il Duce

[stevelyn]

I too was impressed with his sincerity. However, I could feel my blood pressure spike when he defended that damnable Patriot Act and spoke of the federal JBTs who had written letters supporting it.
Granted, my concern w/ the PA isn't necessarily with this administration. My concern is with future administrations and the probability we'll get another Butch Reno AG who will label all gun owners (especially politically active ones) as terrorists.

[longeyes]

Definitely a mixed bag. Whether he hurt himself more than helped himself remains to be seen. I wanted more Patton and less backporch preacher. At times he shot from the hip and was clearly earnest and full of conviction; at other times he seemed distracted, unfocused, rather weak. There were questions from the press that should never have been asked and that he should have dismissed with a sweep of his hand and a roll of his eyes. I kept waiting for him to slam his fist on the podium and fulminate, to use some shock and awe in his own delivery, to convince the sophistos that, hey, lunkheads, WE ARE IN A WAR FOR OUR VERY SURVIVAL. I think the guy is too nice, too much of a compassionator, and also, alas, has some confused ideas because of conflicting values in his own nature. Talking about freedom is good, but he refuses to identify those who really oppose freedom, who oppose reason and individualism and Enlightenment values and who promote collectivism both here and abroad.

[Baba Louie]

Mr. President, Other than trading off Sammy Sosa, what has been your biggest mistake?
Richard Clarke offered the American people a public apology... will you Mr. President?
Why will both you and V.P. Cheney attend the 9-11 commission hearing together when they wanted you each separately?

I paraphrase their questions of course, but you gotta admire their dogged attempt to lay blame at his feet.

Where does the buck stop?

Pre 9-11 it was Missle Defense systems and Education.

"9-11 changed my life" gwb
It changed the way that several Americans see things and try to understand our stance in world affairs. But then again, for others, like my Mom, the shrub must be cut. ("But Bob, we were so much better off with Clinton")

sigh

[cidirkona]

So when are we going to get rid of the Electoral College, that's what I wanna know... I think it's crap.

-Colin

[fix]

So when are we going to get rid of the Electoral College, that's what I wanna know... I think it's crap.

:what:

Hopefully when hell freezes over...and not a minute sooner!!! I have no desire to give exclusive control of the White House to California and New York.

[cidirkona]

I have no desire to give exclusive control of the White House to California and New York.

Oh God no, states shouldn't have any power in presidential elections. Every citizen should have one vote though... no matter where they live.

-Colin

[R.H. Lee]

So when are we going to get rid of the Electoral College, that's what I wanna know... I think it's crap

So does Hillary Clinton.

[cidirkona]

So when are we going to get rid of the Electoral College, that's what I wanna know... I think it's crap

So does Hillary Clinton.

What's your point? If I'm uninformed about something, let me know.

-Colin

[The Bum from the Docks]

This segment from the conference proves the Q&A session with the media was all a scripted white wash.

http://www.thememoryhole.org/media/bush-scripted.mov


Here is a link to the trancript where it is also admited.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030306-8.html

The exchange is not quite halfway down the page.

We'll be there in a minute. King, John King. This is a scripted -- (laughter.)

Q Thank you, Mr. President.



Katrina Vanden Heuvel, Editor of The Nation stated:

"But one had a sense of being at the court of King George. I mean, Bush at one point said, this is scripted. He looked down at his list, this was the first time in modern memory when a president had a list of reporters he was going to call on. This was not democracy. This was managed democracy."



Near the end of the conference Bush took a question;

-----------------------------------------------

QUESTION: "Thank you, Mr. President.

In the last campaign, you were asked a question about the biggest mistake you'd made in your life, and you used to like to joke that it was trading Sammy Sosa.

You've looked back before 9-11 for what mistakes might have been made. After 9-11, what would your biggest mistake be, would you say, and what lessons have learned from it?"

BUSH: I wish you'd have given me this written question ahead of time so I could plan for it.

John, I'm sure historians will look back and say, gosh, he could've done it better this way or that way. You know, I just -- I'm sure something will pop into my head here in the midst of this press conference, with all the pressure of trying to come up with answer, but it hadn't yet."

-------------------------------------------------

Anyone who watched the TV footage witnessed the embarrasing sight of Bush pausing for at least five seconds and saying absolutely nothing. Bush's admonition that the question should have been written 'ahead of time' (like the rest) proves that this was an impromptu question in an otherwise carefully scripted briefing.

Many people have speculated that Bush actually wears an ear piece and the responses are fed through to him and he just repeats them. I have done radio interviews but I'm by no means a master of public speaking. If a radio host asks a question about a topic that I have no detailed knowledge of then I can at least give a surface answer and so could most other people. Bush, the President of the most powerful country on earth, could not even do that. He literally stood there in silence fumbling around 'waiting for an answer to pop into his head' (or through the ear piece).

[TaurusCIA]

quote:
Then came the part about "Freedom granted by the Almighty and the American duty to deliver it to the world." Sounds like New World Order meets Jerry Falwell to me.


Declaration of Independence
WHEN in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.

WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it


But I'm not sure I believe it is our duty to deliver it to the world. I would rather hear more about America's strategic interests.

It is the "Right of the People to alter or to abolish it" and our right to help them if its in our strategic interests...but it probably does not rise quite to the level of a duty. IMO

[TaurusCIA]

This segment from the conference proves the Q&A session with the media was all a scripted white wash.

Oh, Ok...but just cause you said so.:scrutiny:

[The Bum from the Docks]

Just cause I said so???



Ummm.....did you even go to the link that had the clip where Bush ADMITED that???? :scrutiny: :uhoh: :rolleyes:

[TaurusCIA]

Already watched twice, so a third time would have been a waste of my time.

Yeah, and the 9/11 commission called Rice "Clarke" several times, so it must have been scripted to...except they were working off the Clarke section. :uhoh:

You took the scripted comment and added "white wash" which only demonstrates a bias against Bush or for conspiracies. Oh, of course, you would have remembered the press core's names without any help.

[The Bum from the Docks]

Which part of Bush saying,

"This is scripted"


don't you understand?

[R.H. Lee]

This was not democracy. This was managed democracy."


Yeah, the left wishes it was a democracy. A democracy is mob rule-two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.

This is a constitutional republic.

[fix]

What's your point? If I'm uninformed about something, let me know.

The point is that were it not for the electoral college, California and New York could out vote the rest of us in "flyover country" through sheer force of numbers...effectively forcing their choice for President down our throats. You are advocating pure democracy, which is nothing more than two wolves and a sheep sitting down to discuss what's for dinner.

Edit: I see we've beaten that analogy to death. :D

[Unobtainium]

The country is named "United States of America", not "United Persons of America"

[fix]

Welcome aboard, and excellent first post. Something tells me I'm gonna like you.

[Diggler]

There is nothing embarrassing about sitting there silent for five seconds while you give some thought to your answer. If more people thought before speaking the world would be better off.

[Atticus]

"Then came the part about "Freedom granted by the Almighty and the American duty to deliver it to the world." Sounds like New World Order meets Jerry Falwell to me. He's still a better choice than Kerry...but we deserve better."


My point, is that he was given an opportunity to explain his actions, and to outline future actions- and that's what the speech should have been about. He chose instead, to confirm the suspicions of every far left wing/right wing American, and every non- Christian in the world, that this is some kind of American imposed crusade designed to deliver the heathens from the evil of their own ignorance- and not from weapons of mass destruction or terrorism. More worrisome to me, was that it seemed to be the only statement he made all night that wasn't read from script.

I support Bush, and yet even I wonder who is actually sitting off stage and supplying answers to the questions that he pretends to be answering.

I don't think he could answer, "where were you born?" without looking down to the screen, or listening to an ear bud, for an answer. It's not real comforting to know that he is the most powerful man in the world.

[TaurusCIA]

Which part of Bush saying,

"This is scripted"


don't you understand?



The "white wash" part of course.

You are starting to act like the 9/11 commission now...mix the "This is scripted" with your "white wash" statement, then say well that's what he said. NO! It is not what "HE" said. It is what "YOU" said.

[TaurusCIA]

There is nothing embarrassing about sitting there silent for five seconds while you give some thought to your answer. If more people thought before speaking the world would be better off.



Unfortunately, most people would rather hear a smooth talking politician tell them what they want to hear than hear a plain speaking politician tell them what is...

I'd rather have Bush and know what he really thinks and feels (even the parts I disagree with) than a smooth talker who says what people want to hear, then does whatever he or his cronies really want to do.

[Sean Smith]

Man, my ignore file is growing by leaps and bounds...

[cidirkona]

You are advocating pure democracy, which is nothing more than two wolves and a sheep sitting down to discuss what's for dinner.

Yeh, but us Arizonans are meat-eating well armed sheep!!

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid108/p99ef497c18eab96fdc5d6fc8a1750d61/f945810c.jpg

-Colin

[bountyhunter]

Some (like my yellow dog democrat Mom) would persecute him for lack of pre-emptive strike against the alQ in Afghanistan, then persecute him for his pre-emptive strike in Iraq.What did you think?
. I think you could learn a lot from your mom right after you apologize to her. She might explain the reason she feels that way is that in Afghanistan, we were actually going after the people who were (and are) waging war on us: Al Qaeda. She is right that a 100% effort should have been used to eradicate them, but the reason it was not is because (and this has been confirmed by documentation and witnesses) Bush knew even then he was going to invade Iraq and was holding most troops and material in reserve for that plan. In other words, the Iraq blunder probably is the reason all of the top AQ henchmen simply crossed into Pakistan when they felt the heat, and it is still the reason we don't have enough manpower to mount a full-scale assault on the lands they are known to occupy. I hope I did your mother's position justice, she can probably add to what I said.

I was impressed with his sincerity. He's not a great communicator, but does come across as a regular guy of sorts. One who listens to advice and leads. One who listens to advice? God help us all. The man whose leadership marching orders were: I am invading Iraq, bring me information that will support this and don't bother me with facts that contradict this decision?

That's the guy you consider good leader?

One question: is your mom still spry enough to give you a good thumping?:confused:

[TaurusCIA]

In other words, the Iraq blunder probably is...

Here is the canned response to your canned spin.:uhoh:

"We are fighting a war on TERROR, not on AQ.

So, whether that is against Hamaas, or AQ, or rulers like Saddam who SUPPORT terrorism, it is the same." USMC_2674


The terrorists from all over the ME are crawling out of their holes and are gathering in Iraq. Those who are trained to wage war are there to do their job and eliminate them. I guess you would rather try to appease them like Spain hoping they will pass you by while you bury your head in the sand.

Link... (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75171&perpage=25&highlight=terrorism%20iraq&pagenumber=2)

[Baba Louie]

I think you could learn a lot from your mom right after you apologize to her. Owww, that hurts BH. Stinging. Apologize? For what, pray tell kind sir? For calling her a yellow dog democrat? Her term and she says it with pride.
She knows where I stand on firearms and the second and knows that this is my first barometer for gauging a politician. If he/she wants to disarm the American populace in any way shape or fashion, I toss em' out with the dirty laundry water.
Mom ADORES everything Bill and Hillary stand for. Everything. It was OK for him to play with his intern... "it's only sex Bob, look at JFK." It was OK for him to perjure himself while sworn to tell the truth about his non-relationship with said intern, "Of course married men lie about their affairs. It has nothing to do with his leadership Bob"

Like I said... Yellow dog democrat and proud of it. (shrug) Character means nothing. Charisma, everything. Democratic & charismatic, it's all good.
She hates "the shrub" with a poison passion. (sigh) She isn't for Kerry for any other reason than he's running against GWB. She prays she'll live long enough to see Hillary elected to the White House.

Afghanistan? How would you get there without clearing a way for troops and supplies? Look at a map and tell me just how you're gonna get our boys and girls with guns in there... unless you get Iran, Pakistan or Russia to play ball. Can you do that overnight? Without invading someone's air space at the least?

Iraq was in trouble from the get go. They'd thumbed their noses at the UN long enough for our President to decide to show some backbone for the UN, they were shooting at US/UK aircraft weekly in areas they shouldn't have been, their leadership had played with poison gases on segments of population he didn't like, were known to be starving their people while raking in millions, harboring known terrorists, supporting other terrorist activities, had training bases for terrorists. Their military went on high alert in August Sept of 2001. Hmmmm. Wonder why?

Why didn't we invade Saudi Arabia? On Sept 12 the entire Saudi Royal family hightailed it outta there for Switzerland. You ever wonder why BH? Who was supporting the Taliban and alQ more than any other country?

Back to my Mom for a second tho. I do love and respect her. Learned a lot from her, too. She made me read Ayn Rand when I was in junior high and taught me music.

I may not agree with GWB on all things. Nukulur. Back to deficit spending and a bigger gov't while doling out pennies to the middle class and serious dollars in way of tax cuts to those who've worked harder and smarter than I and pay more in taxes because they make more while not reeling in a Republican Congress to spend less and downsize the gov't bureaucracies.

Of course he was planning on day 1 to take out Iraq. To get to Iran. Iraq was an easy victory... or so it would seem in the foggy foresight of 2000.

Oh, BH, about Mom again. She's 69 and pretty feisty. She can thump me whenever she's right and proves me wrong. So can you. Have a nice day.

[SodaPop]

I am not going to vote for John Kerry, but George Bush is not giving me any confidence.

He really needs to get out there more. I know what the guy is trying to say but he just can't get it out.

[Il Duce]

I like to judge a man by what he does, not by what he says he will do.

Honestly, GWB is refreshing. I'm tired of silver-tongued politicians that can talk their way out of anything ::cough:: Clinton ::cough::

I feel like I could invite GW over for dinner, sit on the front porch smoking a cigar, and feel completely comfortable...like I was talking to a neighbor down the road.

He chose instead, to confirm the suspicions of every far left wing/right wing American, and every non- Christian in the world, that this is some kind of American imposed crusade designed to deliver the heathens from the evil of their own ignorance- and not from weapons of mass destruction or terrorism.

Yeah, I forgot...you can't be religious anymore.
He stated what he believed, and what about 90% of the country believes. Why is it that you mention the word "God" and people start screaming. It's not even a religion, unless you consider monotheism a religion. Honestly, even if I were atheist, I'd rather have someone in office who believes in something and isn't afraid to say it, be it God, humanity, Marxism, etc.

Just a thought, I could be wrong...:p

Il Duce

[longeyes]

GWB fumbles around the real issue. The reason to oppose radical Islam is the same reason to oppose socialism: imposed collectivism. And the answer to that is reason and individual rights and civil order. Bush needs to better understand, himself, the real basis for the freedom he touts.

Just as he keeps proclaiming that Islam is a religious of peace he would have us believe that Christianity is the religion of freedom. Neither of those generalizations will pass muster and are beside the point. We need to be fighting against mind-control of all kinds.

[Sean Smith]

George W. Bush is just a stunningly bad public speaker. Really, really appalling. The truth is he can't think on his feet in a press conference and can't read a speech worth a damn. His father was way better at that sort of thing, and Bush Sr. was no "Great Communicator." His whole administration also seems to be strangely tone-deaf to the kind of responses his decisions can be reasonably expected to elicit. Legalizing higher arsenic concentrations in water comes to mind here.

Bush has had some bright spots, usually interacting with normal people and talking about things he cares about (think post-9/11 in NYC). But his overall track record in this regard has been about as bad as possible, given that he did have to get elected the first time 'round.

People talk about how they don't want some smooth-talker, but the fact is that he impairs his own conduct of the presidency by not being able to sell his ideas to the public better. This is doubly true when you consider that most of the media is left-leaning and reflexively hostile to Republicans, Southerners and avowed Christians in general, and W. in particular. For every Fox news spinning things in his favor, there is PBS, NPR and New York Times doing the exact opposite... and jumping on every mangled inflection as evidence that he's leading us into another Vietnam, starving welfare babies for fun, or whatever.

Of course, I think W. is wrong as often or not, so sometimes I'm glad he can't sell his worse ideas. But it is a major weakness of his as a politican.

[Sungun09]

With all due respect to the president, whom I voted for I might add, this coming election is not between two intellectual giants.

The country has degenerated into battles between millionaires who don't know what the ordinary person goes through on a day to day basis or simply don't truly care.

[R.H. Lee]

I'm beginning to think that Presidents are becoming less and less relevent.
Who was the last great president? (I think there is another thread discussing this).

PERCEPTION IS REALITY. You can bet *kerry's* (did you see that way I did that? just like the libs do with *bush*) public relations and "image" teams are working 24/7 right now. You're going to see a "redefined" kerry emerge any day now, built around George Bush's weaknesses. Unless Dubya gets it together and begins to coherently articulate, he's gonna find himself replaced.

President *kerry* will then complete the "europeonization" of America and we will be totally *screwed*--Karl Rove-are 'ya listening?

[Atticus]

"Yeah, I forgot...you can't be religious anymore.
He stated what he believed, and what about 90% of the country believes. Why is it that you mention the word "God" and people start screaming."

That's not the issue. I would assume that most people would have liked to have heard a PLAN - regardless of how that plan was obtained (via prayer ..or tea leaves). The man is the Pesident - not a Parson...or a neighbor. When you have much, if not most, of the world (including many Americans) questioning your objectives and long term plans....it might be good to be able to clearly state them...or even hint at them. "Stay the course" is a pretty lame explanation when the people you just liberated are shooting at you- and you are shelling their cities - and you are asking for more National Guardsmen to ship overseas -and in 30 days you are turning a nation over to someone, or something, that you cannot even name.
I was reminded of a G. Gordon Liddy quote about Jimmy Carter- " He'd make a great Parson...he just a lousy President."

[bountyhunter]

The man is the Pesident - not a Parson...or a neighbor. When you have much, if not most, of the world (including many Americans) questioning your objectives and long term plans....it might be good to be able to clearly state them...or even hint at them. "Stay the course" is a pretty lame explanation when the people you just liberated are shooting at you- and you are shelling their cities - and you are asking for more National Guardsmen to ship overseas -and in 30 days you are turning a nation over to someone, or something, that you cannot even name. AMEN.

[bountyhunter]

Honestly, GWB is refreshing. I'm tired of silver-tongued politicians Then you must be in hog heaven.:eek:

[fallingblock]

:D

[Zan]

President Bush's news conference Tuesday night was exactly what I expected: an attempt to shift the reason for being in Iraq from meeting "a gathering threat" to grandoise visions of "changing the world." If you've watched Bush on the campaign trail, you know that he used much of the same professionally devised rhetoric he uses in his speeches. I think this president has an honesty problem. His claims of being a born Christian and his strategic references to the Creator and the Almighty don't cut it for me. We were misled into war. Using religious window dressing to help sell his policies makes things worse. What I find most disturbing is the new strategy the Bush administration and its media mouthpieces are using to silence critics: charging that criticizing the administration is helping the enemy and undermining our troops. This shows that there is no low this administration and its patsies won't sink to in order to get Bush re-elected.
Everything this administration does appears to be about politics.

J.D.B.

[TaurusCIA]

changing the world

I'm not sure I believe it is our duty to deliver democracy to the world. I would rather hear more about America's strategic interests.

It is the "Right of the People to alter or to abolish" their oppressive government and our right to help them if its in our strategic interests...but it probably does not rise quite to the level of a duty. IMO


I don't think GWB or the Republican party in general are very good at politics.

I believe there is a reasonable argument for going to Iraq as part the war on terror and a reasonable argument against it. To try to change emphasis now to [spreading freedom and democracy across the world as our duty] is a bad political strategy. Most people don't care about spreading democracy, they want to know how going to Iraq affects us here and now.

Come on Repubs, it is time to get some new blood in the political strategy department. You are making me look bad.

[Diggler]

I kind of agree with that.

The Republicans aren't very good at getting what they want. They have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory way too many times.

Although, I think I'd rather be affiliated with someone who is bad at politics (Repubs) than with someone who is just TOO damn good at it (Dem's).

[TaurusCIA]

Diggler,

Amen to that!

[RealGun]

Although, I think I'd rather be affiliated with someone who is bad at politics (Repubs) than with someone who is just TOO damn good at it (Dem's).

You have to be devious when you don't have a straightforward foundation for what you propose. The Dems are edging closer and closer to outright tyranny, if you ask me, seeking to mold the country into something totally different than its roots.

It's pretty clear that of the two major parties the GOP has the truer dedication to traditional values, which I don't think are obsolete. There must be a middle ground between tyranny and anarchy...what serves society constructively and what doesn't.

I would be interested in talking about reforms, certainly to include the conservatives, but our status quo is not all bad by any means. We don't have the stark contrast of a country with a system that works better than ours.

[Baba Louie]

"The more you read about politics, you got to admit that each party is worse than the other."
-- Will Rogers

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies."
-- Groucho Marx

"It is not in the nature of politics that the best men should be elected. The best men do not want to govern their fellow men."
-- George MacDonald

"I'm not a member of any organized political party, I'm a Democrat!"
-- Will Rogers

"Thus far, the reputed idiot Bush has graduated from Yale and Harvard, made a stack of cash in the oil industry, become the first consecutive-term governor of Texas, defeated a dual-term VP for the presidency, and led his party to [November 5th's] extraordinary triumphs. Let his opponents keep calling him stupid; if they do, within five years Bush will be King of England, the Pope, and world Formula One motor racing champion."
-- Tim Blair

But will he maintain office in '05 - '09?
The Dems are the people's party. Mobocracy in action, controlled or financed by labor and minority, party of the mom and the little everyman.
Repubs, business and high finance in action, party of the dad and the big man on campus.
Both loath to change, like human nature, unless its in their own best interest.

One last Will Rogers quote

"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
-- Will Rogers

So while everyone is paying attention to the Presidential race this year, what's going on in the Congressional races?
Huh? Warrants another thread probably.

[bountyhunter]

The Dems are edging closer and closer to outright tyranny, if you ask me, It says tyranny is defined as:

"Arbitrary and unrestrained excercise of power."

So, then, you are saying that it was a democratic tyrant who:

1) Decided he could take the country to war, despite the facts, despite that stupid constitution that said it was the congresses power to make war.

2) Wielded absolute power against any and all who criticzed his war by slandering them as "terror lovers".

3) Continued to slander critics of the war after it started by saying anyone who did not support the war was not supporting the troops.

4) More of the same saying that anybody who did not support the war was a traitor who was supporting the enemy.

Yeah, OK.... lets blame it on the democrats again....:barf:

[fix]

I notice the Bush bashers have stopped making references to the missing WMD in the last few days. I wonder why that is.

[bountyhunter]

I notice the Bush bashers have stopped making references to the missing WMD in the last few days. I wonder why that is.

It is an ackowledged fact (no WMD's) which has been covered numerous times which means it is no longer news.... and there is nothing left for the Bush administration to try to deny. Their current version of re-written history is that Iraq WANTED to obtain WMD's and so that was justification for the war.

Whatever.

[Diggler]

WARNING... disturbing reality ahead..
Chemical massacre of the Kurds by the Iraqi regime (http://www.twin-towers.net/wmd.htm)

The question isn't whether Iraq had WMD. The question is, where are they NOW? They had several months during the UN's dog and pony show where they could have hidden them or shipped them to Syria or worse.

Maybe those babies were just smothered with Saddam's love.

:rolleyes:

[fix]

I'll be following the stories coming out of Jordan with considerable interest in the next few days. I'll be happy to come back to this thread and bait you a little more, once the facts start coming out. Just be warned, that you could be on the verge of deepthroating your foot...along with the rest of your blatantly partisan compatriots. :D

[bountyhunter]

So, let me see if I have this straight:

After all the bogus reports of the smoking guns being plastered everywhere:

1) The aluminum tubes that were incaapable of being used for uranium enrichment

2) The "uranium purchase" that was a forgery

3) The "mobile gas lab" that was a machine to fill weather balloons

4) The massive underground nuclear facility that was a completely made up story

5) The stockpile of canisters of "VX" that turned out to be nothing

6) The "secret plans" for a nuclear device that was 20 years old and buried in a backyard

After all that, I am supposed to fall down and bow if you do manage to come up with some chems left over from the Iran war? For crying out loud, we knew they had them because the CIA used satellite intel to direct Iraqi artillery to get maximum "yield" from them. Get real. The only WMD that would have justified war was either an advanced nuke program or proof that Iraq was supplying some kind of lethal viral agent that could be weaponized to terrorists. That ship sailed, game over.

[bountyhunter]

Just be warned, that you could be on the verge of deepthroating your foot... OK, should be good for a laugh to hear somebody claiming victory after their side's arguments and claims have been proven 100% false over the course of 18 months trumpeting the use of a chemical agent by a country we knew had them for over a decade. If that's a scoop...... I'll take vanilla.

BTW: here is the title of your "smiking gun" article:

Bloody Friday
Chemical massacre of the Kurds by the Iraqi regime
Halabja-March 1988


WOW! IMagine that, Iraq was using chemical agnets back in the 80's......

WHO KNEW?

EVERYBODY KNEW, INCLUDING RONALD REAGAN WHO WAS ALLOWING IRAQ UNRESTRICTED ACCESS TO US ARMS AS A REWARD FOR POUNDING IRAN INTO THE TURF.

[RealGun]

It says tyranny is defined as: "Arbitrary and unrestrained exercise of power."

A rather good description of gun control, wouldn't you say. There are lots of ways to list how Dems want to decide on ways to differ remarkably from our country's early history...socialism basically. The tyranny comes when they have the numbers to do it. The GOP is far more deeply rooted in our traditions and the Constitution. Are reforms needed? You betcha.

As far as your list of Bush bashing goes, I'll leave that to the checks and balances in our government. If there is no successful call for impeachment, understand it and get over it.

I think what's coming is that Cheney will take the fall and not repeat as Vice President, ostensibly because of his heart problems. I see Powell being promoted as Cheney's replacement. Rumsfeld will leave because of age. Tom Ridge will be promoted, but I'm not sure to what position.

We are still on track for our main objectives in Iraq...regional oil, relocating bases, covering Israel, and getting rid of Saddam's continuing threat, no thanks to the UN. The WMD scandal just removes a more politically palatable motive.

Secret funding and preparation for Iraq has some justification, if Congress and the American people can't handle the truth of what must be done despite the BS. It remains to be seen whether further funding requests for action in Iraq will be approved by Congress. If they go along with it in spite of the previous secret and highly questionable redirection of Afghanistan money, all is forgiven in effect. I think Congress is in on all of this, so I expect it to blow over as long as there are a few fall guys and popular replacements.

If I had a big SUV or any kind of gas guzzler, I would sell it quickly.

[TaurusCIA]

bh,
He is probably talking about something more like this...

Monday, April 19, 2004 1:38 p.m. EDT
Chem Bomb Plot Flashback: Kay Warned Iraq's WMDs in Syria

Just two months before al-Qaida terrorists were caught by Jordanian police transporting chemical bombs across the Jordanian-Syrian border, U.S. weapons inspector David Kay identified Syria as a likely hiding place for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction...


http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/4/19/134423.shtml


We'll see if it pans out.

[fix]

Aw c'mon!!! You weren't supposed to tell him. Now he'll have weeks to make up excuses. I was gonna keep feeding him the rope.

[bountyhunter]

"It says tyranny is defined as: "Arbitrary and unrestrained exercise of power."

A rather good description of gun control, wouldn't you say. OK, maybe, but am I clear in understanding you see the face of tyranny in gun control but have no problems with an administraton which has revolked most of the bill of rights (like the right to a speedy trial, confront your accuser, jury of your peers) as well as a grand leader who genuinely believes:

a) He is ALWAYS right

b) he can attack any time or place he imagines that a threat MAY BE?

No offense, but aren't you swatting a gnat while an elephant is standing on your throat?

[bountyhunter]

Just two months before al-Qaida terrorists were caught by Jordanian police transporting chemical bombs across the Jordanian-Syrian border, U.S. weapons inspector David Kay identified Syria as a likely hiding place for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction...

Aw c'mon!!! You weren't supposed to tell him. Now he'll have weeks to make up excuses. I was gonna keep feeding him the rope. very humorous, but I don't make excuses, just repeat what I have said for 18 months: who gives a flying crap if Iraq still had surplus chems from the Iran war? He wasn't going to use them with inspectors in his country and a gun pointed right at his head. He knew he faced immediate invasion if he did that. He posed exactly ZERO threat to us or anybody else as long as the inspectors were there.

And David Kay "identifying Syria as the likely hiding place" was david Kay making excuses for why they were not finding anything. He, like Bush, did not want to acknowledge the possibility that the reason they didn't find any was because they were not there. Unlike Bush, kay has since admitted he was wrong about that.

I don't care if they find chems piled to the moon. They posed zero threat to us and did not justify this war.

[RealGun]

OK, maybe, but am I clear in understanding you see the face of tyranny in gun control but have no problems with an administraton which has revolked most of the bill of rights (like the right to a speedy trial, confront your accuser, jury of your peers) as well as a grand leader who genuinely believes:

Oh, now you drag out more of your Bush bashing list and start to put words in mouth. I will save my energy for a more productive debate.

I approve of the Patriot Act in concept. I will be happy to see it refined during renewal, in a bit less of a rush to slam dunk the first one after 9/11. If it becomes permanent, then I will be indignant, asking for a reason and primed to push for a Supreme Court ruling. I am happy something is being done about our vulnerability to terrorism. I don't have better ideas. In any case, Congress is fully accountable for that bill, in spite of sponsorship by the White House. The final vote was almost unanimous, so don't try to make it sound like Bush's private treason. It's okay to disagree with it though, as is your right.

As far as your a) and b), one thing I noticed early on about Bush is that when he is in command, He COMMANDS. I admire that as long as he retains the same high quality of advisors and consults them. One or a few may lose their jobs it would seem.

[TaurusCIA]

Sorry fix...I'm bad :(

[Baba Louie]

I truly hope that everyone in the mid-east is seriously sitting on pins and needles looking for and finding such shipments and the guys who transport them BEFORE any of these things get used on any populace.
It would be quite horrifible if they were/are used in even one town, village or city anywhere in the world before the November elections, or at any time. It wouldn't surprise me, but it would still be a tragedy.

Worse still would be if it was found that they were Iraqi in origin, stored in a neighboring state with access to al-Q or their ilk. Whereas it might vindicate a smidgeon of the reason for GWB version of Iraqi War II, there would be no joy in mudville, because mighty casey did strike out.

I'm heartened to know that Libya decided to play ball and rid themselves of their nuclear threat, but we know that the Paks have been helped by China and are in turn helping Iran.

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a8309b45a0b.htm
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/12/24/1072239719611.html

When GWB used his axis of evil quote concerning (nukeulur) WMD the three countries were Iraq, Iran and N. Korea, if I recall.

Oops, turned out Iraq wasn't (No weapons there). Not that they hadn't been trying. The following link was made public in March of 2003. (Interesting date) Probably just propaganda and all lies...

http://www.nti.org/e_research/e1_iraq_N_chron.html

NK, yep, let China deal with Pyongyang for now.

Iran? Hmmmm. Got US Troops on two sides of Iran today. Wanna bet they get recalled in January only to have to return wearing blue berets next fall?

But if Bush is re-elected in November, I'd say it's a good bet that our troops'll be needing Farsi translators and Geiger counters real soon.

What's that line in the movie Swordfish about Houdini making an elephant disappear onstage? Mis-direction?

Oh yeah, I forgot, it IS all about oil, not keeping the world safe or kowtowing to a rich Islamic kid with guns and men who'll gladly die for him in a jihad. I keep falling for the mis-direction WMD thing... it IS all about oil :rolleyes:

[Diggler]

It is an ackowledged fact (no WMD's) which has been covered numerous times which means it is no longer news...
The only WMD that would have justified war was either an advanced nuke program or proof that Iraq was supplying some kind of lethal viral agent that could be weaponized to terrorists.OK, since YOU'RE now the one making up what is and what isn't a WMD...

Forget it. See you in November.

[TaurusCIA]

I don't care if they find chems piled to the moon. They posed zero threat to us and did not justify this war.


Ok, but just cause you say so. :D