CA Constitutional amendment - RKBA


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jnojr
April 14, 2004, 03:36 PM
There's been an initiative floating around to put a measure on the ballot to amend the California Constitution to guarantee a the RKBA. However, nothing seems to be happening... it seems that the individual who was spearheading the signature gathering has disappeared off of the face of the Earth. I created a Yahoo group that, hopefully, can be a centralized place for some kind of organization... we need to be able to distribute petitions and have aplace to send them when they're full of signatures so that those who volunteer to get signatures aren't wasting their time. We need to coordinate volunteers to gather signatures. And there's probably a million other things involved! Even though the clock is rapidly running down this year (and I don't even know if this effort is even still alive right now), there's no reason why we can't get organized for next year.

If you can see yourself donating time, money, expertise, whatever to the cause; please join. I don't intend this to be yet another freewheeling round of gripes and time-consuming chatter... I want this group to be focused on what we need to do to have the best chance possible to get an RKBA measure in front of the voters.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/carkba/

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jnojr
April 14, 2004, 08:44 PM
With all the talk about how California gun laws sucks, nobody is willing to try to do anything about it?

Pendragon
April 15, 2004, 04:48 AM
We don't all live in CA buddy :)

Seriously - the RKBA ammendment is kind of a long shot. I needs goo funding and organization and I think thats what it has been missing.

They have been trying to pass this forever, but its always just one little thing in the sea of many problems in CA.

Some want the AWB repealed. Some what gunshows loosened.

Some want to get rid of the drop test while others are working on CCW reform.

Still more people are fighting to ensure that more anti gun laws are not passed.

It's not that nobody cares, its just that this project, while promising, is not the focus at the moment.

jnojr
April 15, 2004, 02:08 PM
I understand that not everybody here is in CA. But some/several/many are. And, quite frankly, it angers me when people will moan and groan about how terrible things are, but when someone asks them to actually *do* something about it, they all shut up and slink away. If you aren't willing to work to fix a problem, then don't complain about it.

As for this being a long shot, of course it is. But what are the chances of success if nobody tries to fight? Somewhere very close to zero, that's where. This initiative, if passed, will, at a stroke, take care of nearly every firearms issue in California. To say that "this project, while promising, is not the focus at the moment" is astounding... what *is* the focus? To fight one more losing battle in the Legislature? You mention gun shows. One of the bills that's being fought right now is to close the Cow Palace to gun shows. Our liberal Legislature is very likely to pass that bill, as well as many other bad laws, this year and in the years to come. The *only* way to stop them is to go directly in front of the voters.

I'm not suggesting that anyone abandon national efforts. But, in California, there *is* no other issue... and bad bills we beat down now will be back next year, and the year after that, and the year after that, until the liberals get it passed. Having someone in California fighting the national AWB is ridiculous... first of all, it's dead. Second, it doesn't help us here in California!

The thread about "CA shall-issue" is a great example... lots of people saying "Way to go, Jim! Let me know when it happens!" But when Jim asks for two lousy volunteers to help with his efforts, where are all of these people? I don't believe that nobody on this board lives in Sacramento.

Freedom isn't free, people. If you sit there and watch your freedom diminishing, you don't have any grounds to cry when it's all gone.

Gordon Fink
April 15, 2004, 03:20 PM
Oddly, I’ve never seen a petition for the RKBA initiative at a gun show or shop. What I have seen are the Ashcroft petition, recall-Davis petitions, and anti-illegal-immigrant petitions.

~G. Fink

TimRB
April 15, 2004, 03:28 PM
Edit: Nevermind


Tim

Russ
April 15, 2004, 05:26 PM
Jnojr,

You are about 3-4 years late to the party and now you complain about no one helping? Where were you when the "vetothegovernor.org" petitions were going around?

The site below linked was working on a 2A clause in the CA Constitution for some time. This site appeared in the aftermath of "vetothegovernor.org" which tried to get roughly 750,000 signatures to get on the 2000 ballot. They failed to get enough signatures on the petition by about 75,000. Close but no cigar. Never was an RKBA petition.

http://www.caproprkba.org/

This is not new. Needs funding or it won't happen. Almost did a few years ago through volunteers but fell short. I did my part but now I'm outta there.

I was born, raised and lived in CA for a long time. I bet I lived there longer than you have been alive.

Read the site above and see if anyone is still working it. Good luck with a Yahoo group. More organized sites have gone down in flames before. Maybe you will be the exception.

jnojr
April 15, 2004, 06:05 PM
Gordon - That's what I'm talking about! :-)

Russ - I don't understand the point of your post. Is there a magic date before which, if you haven't started volunteering, you can't? What is that date? Or, if something has been tried X number of times or over Y number of days in the past, it can't ever be tried again?

The caproprkba.org site is, effectively, dead. That's why I figured I would at least make an attempt to see what's going on... http://rkba.members.sonic.net/ indicates that there's a current effort, but the author of that site says the person who was collecting signatures just stopped answering email.

If you want to be negative about it, that's fine. I certainly get frustrated with stuff like this too. But I don't understand why you would want to ???? all over someone who's at least trying, *especially* when we both know you'll be moaning and groaning along with the rest of us the next time some stupid law goes into effect. Talking about what you did ten years ago doesn't help today.

DigitalWarrior
April 15, 2004, 06:14 PM
I am in strategic retreat mode. All time, energy, and money going to the Free State Project.

The reality is that most people in California want "Gun Control". Most people in California want big government. Most people in California are statists and proud of it.

I am a minority here. But, I do not want to force the way of life that I want to live on others. So I work for freedom in New Hampshire

In Liberty,
Will

artherd
April 16, 2004, 02:24 AM
And here ever so prominently is the problem we as gunowner-activists face.

We are too busy fighting, bitching, and dis-agreeing with each other to form a cordinated and unified front.

I would actually guess there are more total persons in the state of California that are pro-RKBA than against.

It's just that the minority which are strongly against freedom have a common cause, good funding, and a loud voice. Thus they seem like the majority.

What do I need to do to help?

fjolnirsson
April 16, 2004, 02:32 AM
I signed up on the yahoo group, but it doesn't seem to be working. I tried to post, and it accepts it, but shows 0 posts have been made. It also still says it has 5 members, same as before I joined. If I can help, I will.

Pendragon
April 16, 2004, 04:58 AM
And here ever so prominently is the problem we as gunowner-activists face.

We are too busy fighting, bitching, and dis-agreeing with each other to form a cordinated and unified front.

That is NOT what is happening here.

Here is the deal.

This movement has no momentum. People want to put their time and money into something that will have an effect.

If there are 5 people on a Yahoo group, thats great, but not a lot of people want to be #6,7 and 8.

If you think this is the real deal, take the bull by the horns. These things do not happen because everyone spontaneously decides to join.

They start small, they need visionary, enthusiastic, tireless leadership.
They need people to sell the vision, raise money, raise awareness, develop a strategy, execute the strategy, observe the execution and make corrections to stay on track.

If you got 5 people now, plan on how to get to 50, then 200, 500 and 1500 then 5000, etc.

You need to figure out what the goal is (CA RKBA ammendment?) and what its going to take and what the steps are.

From what I have seen, most of the time, they build some momentum, but then get a late start on getting sigs - so they got the whole machine going, but they run out of time or money and it all blows up.

Nobody wants to invest themselves in something that will blow up.

The movement needs a modern day Alexander the Great or Hannibal or Napolean - someone who can, with force of character and will, make this thing manifest.

Ieyasu
April 16, 2004, 11:23 AM
jnojr,

Good frigin' luck. I think your time and energy would be better spent elsewhere with respect to gun rights than trying to push an RKBA petition in Kal, at this point. One main reason it failed last time was neither the CRPA nor NRA supported the measure. I know staunch gun rights activists who refused to sign the petition because the NRA didn't back it (they thought the NRA's reasons for opposing it were sound). It sure would have been easier to gather sigs with their support. Unless you've got the bucks to hire professional sig gatherers, you simply aren't going to get enough sigs in time. Might as well go bash your head against a wall.

You wrote: "This initiative, if passed, will, at a stroke, take care of nearly every firearms issue in California. "

*sigh* -- 'fraid not.

To wit, here's Ohio's state constitutional provision:
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security; but standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and shall not be kept up; and the military shall be in strict subordination to the civil power."

That provision didn't stop the Ohio state supreme court from upholding an AWB ban. Although the wording in the proposed Kal amendment is stronger, it won't come close to stopping a gun-hostile court from upholding ugly-gun bans.

As I said, there are better ways for you to channel your gun rights energies.

jnojr
April 16, 2004, 11:57 AM
artherd - You're absolutely right. Except that it also seems that most CA gun owners aren't willing to do anything except complain, and are quick to bash anyone who actually tries to take action because they think it isn't the "right" action. God forbid they should do anything except point a finger, though...

fjolnirsson - What happened when you joined? Yahoo can be weird... I've never had any problems, but then I have a Yahoo ID I've used for years... do you already have a Yahoo ID?

Pendragon - This "movement" has no momentum because nobody is willing to start pushing. Everyone wants to join a successful effort at the end so they can puff out their chest and say "Look what I did!" I'm trying to push, but I can't do it myself.

Ieyasu - Read the initiative... it isn't just RKBA. It specifically pre-empts any gun laws that do not address the right to firearm ownership and self-defense in the same manner that a law would address the freedom of speech and the press.

http://www.caproprkba.org/analysis.html

Ieyasu
April 16, 2004, 01:08 PM
"Ieyasu - Read the initiative"

Oh I did jnojr. You're simply not famliar with other state supreme court decisions which supply the rationales to *easily* uphold an ugly-gun ban regardless of whether strict scrutiny is applied to RKBA.

Pendragon
April 16, 2004, 01:13 PM
You arent going to get more people on by complaining about the lack of people.

People will follow a leader.

jnojr
April 16, 2004, 01:27 PM
Gee, guys. You're right. I should just give up. Can I join you in impotently moaning and bitching? I'm sure that feels a lot better than actually putting forth any kind of effort.

The next time a stupid gun law is passed, you don't need to wonder why and how. Just look in the mirror.

Ieyasu
April 16, 2004, 01:37 PM
"Gee, guys. You're right. I should just give up."

Nope, I never suggested that. I said, there are better (in my opinion) things you can do to fight for our gun rights in Kal, than trying to pass an RKBA petition at this time, especially since it doesn't have the support of the "big guns."

GigaBuist
April 16, 2004, 02:41 PM
I'd quit with the bickering before a moderator hits the thread with a lock. Just a suggestion.

What would be really nice is if we could get a FEDERAL provision on the books so we didn't have to fight struggles like this from state to state. Something states unequivocally that under no circumstances can a law be passed to keep us from owning and carrying firearms. Rather than say we're allowed to own arms it'll say that laws can't even be made to infringe on this. We won't even limit it to a portion of government either like the 1st ammendment is. Make it a blanket statement across the board that is simply will never be infringed upon.

Something like "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Ok, so if CA gets something like this on the books what the hell good is it going to do? Seriously. It might look nice, and it'll give the group that fights for it a warm cozy feeling know that they've got a 2A like thing attached to the CA constitution but that's really all it's going to do. That's why people aren't jumping in the band wagon if you ask me.

It's not like the law makers (or people) are paying attention to the original 2nd ammendment. What makes you think they're going to pay attention to another one?

Gordon Fink
April 16, 2004, 04:34 PM
Well, Ieyasu and GigaBuist have stated the hard truth. Written guarantees of the right to keep and bear arms are almost worthless. That is self-evident, I’m afraid.

The more I look at the RKBA problem, the more mass action looks to be the only way to a quick solution. We would have to follow the example of the civil-rights movements of the 1950s–’60s. As I’ve said before, though, this would require unity and leadership.

If we can be more patient, legalized concealed carry may be more successful. By setting a positive example through shall-issue CCW laws, we may be able to restore our rights in the same way that we’ve lost them … incrementally. Still, the CCW route is fraught with danger. It can be used against us … to lull us back into complacency, if we aren’t vigilant.

Either approach will require leadership, and I think that leadership must come from existing RKBA organizations. A handful of us passing out flyers on the street corner won’t get the job done. We need organization and mobilization in a big way.

~G. Fink

Ieyasu
April 16, 2004, 04:51 PM
I agree GF -- Leadership, organization, and change by incremental legislation. (Although, obviously these are not easy things to accomplish in Kal. ;-) )

State constitutional declarations of rights, in many cases, will be useless without a change in the make-up of the judicial branch, and that can be tougher to accomplish than legislative change.

Unfortunately most gun owners do not know who their own reps are let alone have any idea what sort of judges are sitting on state and local benches.

Ieyasu
April 16, 2004, 05:06 PM
"I'd quit with the bickering before a moderator hits the thread with a lock."

I guess bickering is in the eye of the beholder. ;)

jnojr is frustrated at some of our reactions to his initial post, and some of us have been trying to explain why, to us, his desired course of action is a mis-directed use of time and effort. I don't see that argument going in circles (yet), I don't think the differences are petty, and I don't see what's wrong with folks disagreeing and discussing it.

Frohickey
April 16, 2004, 06:31 PM
Okay, here is the skinny of the RKBA proposition, as much as I know it.

It is started by Don Kilmer, who is an attorney in the Silicon Valley. He's a very good guy, but he is also a very busy guy. He used to be the President of the Silicon Valley NRA Members Council when that was still around.

At the 2000 NRA annual meeting, the one that was in Reno, NV, the Silicon Valley Members Council tried to get the NRA involved in this. Maybe include the petition in the American Rifleman magazine, or maybe use the NRA membership list in California to send these petitions to. But it never happened. (Jim March was there. I have pictures to prove it.) ;) :D

After that, the Silicon Valley NRA Members Council decided to close house, at least the original members that actually started it. They are now calling themselves the Golden State 2nd Amendment Council (http://www.gs2ac.com/). Different name, no NRA affiliation, same good people, same meeting place even.

I was hoping that the RKBA Prop (http://members.dslextreme.com/users/hoffmang/Petitions/) was going to get started this election cycle, 2004, but various people got very busy. Plus, with the economic downturn, especially in the Silicon Valley, some people have to work on getting jobs, instead of a RKBA Prop. So, as it sits, the RKBA Prop is technically in the signature-gathering phase right now. I think its supposed to be 6 months worth of time. I'm not sure if this phase ends in June or in September. But the reality is that is not very organized right now. Some of the key people are too busy.

One of the original members of the GS2AC told me that the plan is to keep this RKBA Prop going year-after-year, until we get enough signatures to qualify in an election with. Since the proposition process in California is stacked against citizen initiatives, you need a very good and running infrastructure before you even start the signature gathering processs. You pretty much have to have all your ducks in a row. (Unlike initiatives that are started by politicans, those don't need the signature requirement, *I think*)

So, the bottom line is, if you have the petitition in hand, sign it and send it in. If you can get some people to sign it, do so. This is supposed to build up the infrastructure of signature gatherers so that the next year, there is more signature gatherers. Eventually, the thinking is, we will have enough signatures to qualify this for the ballot. If this happens before the next Big Earthquake, who knows. ;)

If you happen to not be in the Silicon Valley, the desire is to use this time to create your 2nd Amendment rights organization. Then, give the folks over at GS2AC your contact information. We need to cross-communicate, use gunshows to build up your membership list, then keep up your contact with other grassroots (read, non-NRA) gun organizations in California.

(BTW, there is also a Silicon Valley NRA members council that was started up after the original one deaffiliated themselves with the NRA. Its being done by one of the members of the original, not a founding member, and by the liason to LaPierre to the member councils. Still a good group to join, but join other groups as well, or make your own. The more the better.)

Frohickey
April 16, 2004, 06:35 PM
Organization and mobilization... that could be a quickie meeting at your local Denny's or Carrow's restaurant. A group of guys and gals making a plan, say, passing out some flyers to an IDPA group. Or maybe leaving a stack of flyers at a local range. Manning a booth outside of a gunshow to get names and contact info of people interested in gun rights.

Ieyasu
April 16, 2004, 07:14 PM
You got it Frohickey.

That's one way to start. What a friend and myself did, several years ago, was to use a blind-mailing to CRPA members in our area, to get our local gun rights group jump started.

You still listening jnojr? That's exactly what I was alluding to in my earlier posts. In my opinion that kind of effort is more beneficial at this point in Kal. I wish more gunowners would get off their butts (and the 'net) and organize accordingly.

Frohickey
April 16, 2004, 07:24 PM
Actually, it doesn't have to be any more difficult than talking and getting contact info of your shooting buddies. They can then invite their shooting buddies, etc.

Ieyasu
April 16, 2004, 07:35 PM
So true Frohickey, it just depends, eg., not all gun rights activists are shooters.

By the way you wrote: "One of the original members of the GS2AC told me that the plan is to keep this RKBA Prop going year-after-year, until we get enough signatures to qualify in an election with. "

I don't understand that cuz in Kal you have 150 days "from the date of the official summary to gather the required signatures." Unless they plan on recontacting all the signees? Yikes!

jnojr
April 16, 2004, 07:57 PM
Frohickey - You said what's rattling around inside my head, and I just wasn't able to say it... :-) We need two things... 1) city- or county-level organizations, and 2) a state-level organization to coordinate everything. Right now, I don't see that state-level organization... I don't see any sign of GS2AC existing other than their website. I don't see any current count of signatures, any official word on volunteering or collecting, or even an address of where to send them!

Also, I don't believe petitions are good beyond the cycle you're in currently. All signatures, TTBOMK, which were collected in 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2003 are no good. Signatures being collected in 2004 will do no good after June 1st. We need to have a very visible state-level organization that makes it as easy as possible for people to say "Hey! I want to volunteer." and get told "OK... contact this person".

I'm not here saying "We have to do exactly this or else"... I'm saying "We need to get some kind of organization started". And yeah, it's frustrating when the people who post about how ridiculous our gun laws are saying "It won't work. You're wasting your time".

I'm ready, willing, and able to volunteer towards any effort that's going to improve the situation. I think that the RKBA amendment is a good way to go, because it's clear and simple and something that can be "sold" to the voters. I know I'm fed up with ballot measures with the endless back-and-forth... "Prop X won't do what it says, it'll do something else!" "No it won't... the people who say so are evil! It'll do Y, not X!" The worst we have to deal with is "A right to self-defense will result in rivers of blood and mountains of bodies!" "It will? Please explain, then, why that hasn't happened anywhere else?!?!" Also, the RKBA proposition already has its "backers". If someone has already started the process for a ballot initiative to kill the one-handgun-per-month law, or the "drop test" law, or to repeal SB23... tell me where to sign up!

Frohickey
April 16, 2004, 09:01 PM
Also, I don't believe petitions are good beyond the cycle you're in currently. All signatures, TTBOMK, which were collected in 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2003 are no good. Signatures being collected in 2004 will do no good after June 1st. We need to have a very visible state-level organization that makes it as easy as possible for people to say "Hey! I want to volunteer." and get told "OK... contact this person".

Yes, for a particular year's signature gathering you have to start all over again. But the point here was that from the past year's effort, you have the contact information of people that can do the footwork for you. Hopefully, each person's circle of friends grow with time.

Time for a San Diego based 2nd Amendment advocacy group. Start one now. When it comes time for signature gathering, we are one step ahead.

Ieyasu
April 16, 2004, 11:02 PM
"Time for a San Diego based 2nd Amendment advocacy group. Start one now."

Another advantage of a local group is that it is usually rather easy for the spokesman of that group to be quoted in the local newspaper for campaign endorsements, reaction to related current events, etc.

gunsmith
April 17, 2004, 04:26 AM
What we really need is a Constitutional amendment,something that plainly guarantees a "Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms"

RealGun
April 17, 2004, 04:26 PM
Unfortunately Kansas has RKBA in their Constitution but does not allow CCW. The Governor just vetoed the CCW bill. The point being that an amendment is no panacea.

I would go for a national play to connect the 2nd amendment to the 14th, forcing all States to have and recognize RKBA. solidifying RKBA as an individual right in the process. The infringement house of cards would start to fall.

jnojr
April 17, 2004, 07:38 PM
Time for a San Diego based 2nd Amendment advocacy group. Start one now. When it comes time for signature gathering, we are one step ahead.

That's kinda what the goal of the CARKBA Yahoo group is... :-) To try to get interested people on the same wavelength.

There's also my SDShooting Yahoo group... if anyone here is in the San Diego area, please join!

Ieyasu - How did you get a list of names and addresses from the CRPA? I've been wanting to contact them to see if they'll set up a booth at the gun shows, and I'll sit in it. I'd also like to see them send stacks of membership forms and posters or something to every gun store in CA and point out to the gun store owners that it's in their interest to pass out the forms. But there's no way to contact them! I hear mentions of them having meetings, but always in far-away places. I'd *love* to see if we could get "chapters" of the CRPA going.

Ieyasu
April 18, 2004, 12:10 PM
jnojr,

You can't get a member list directly from the CRPA, but what we did is write a letter explaining that we were forming a gun rights group in our area (we named the area of course), explained the kinds of activities we wanted to get involved in, and if they were interested in participating in our group, to contact us at the address given in the letter. We then told the CRPA which zip codes we were interested in. The CRPA sent the letters for us. (I don't recall whether we had to cough-up the money to pay for the mailing. ) Don't count on an overwhelming response. Even most members of the CRPA are gun rights slackers. (The CRPA prez at the time complained about that as well, so if you think I'm just suffering from a lousy attitude, it ain't just me.)

You mentioned you had trouble contacting them, but their phone# is on their homepage.

Your wrote: "I'd also like to see them send stacks of membership forms and posters or something to every gun store in CA and point out to the gun store owners that it's in their interest to pass out the forms."

At least your heart is in the right place. We had to get the materials and do it ourselves. Some gun stores are real short of shelf-space, so it can be tough sometimes. (That's why just sending the stuff to gun stores usually isn't good enough.)

This was several years ago when we did this stuff, and just before the Internet took off. At that time the CRPA was a rather useless group in terms of displaying any sign of life or initiative. I doubt things have changed. One of my friends was on one of their boards, and found it real tough (as in impossible) to get them to try new things. He had trouble even getting them to donate Halbrook's book (That Everyman be Armed) to the public libraries (again this was just before the 'net). This was after he personally bought several copies and gave them the books to donate to libraries. If I correctly recall, most kept the books for themselves. Back then it just seemed like a good-old-boy's network where the annual dance was their big thing, other than lobbying the state legislature. (Which is an important activity, granted.)

Rather than local chapters of the CRPA, you're probably better off forming your own group if you can, unless they've changed, of course.

Anyways, you seem to be willing and able to spend time for the 'cause.' That's great. They may not set-up a booth for you, but will send you the materials and pay for the booth if you're willing to donate your time.

Also, trying contacting the guys who run this site: http://www.gunnewsdaily.com/ They are in your area and may be able to greatly assist you.

Good luck jnojr! If more gunowners had your attitude we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now.

Sorry, I can't resist one last piece of unasked for advice. The net is a great organisation tool of course, but to really get at those gunowners, you'll need to go door to door, and use other traditional marketing methods to get a significant number of members into your local group.

Russ
April 19, 2004, 02:45 PM
Jnojr,

Yes I did things 10 years ago and as soon as 2 1/2 years ago before I moved to Kentucky. Who knows, I may end up back there someday. I sitll care about California.

You ought to find out what happened to Geoff Metcalf who had a fairly decent grass roots organization with vetothegovernor.org? Ask him what he thinks now. That petition drive didn't miss by all that much was his baby. The NRA and CPRA were not behind him at that time. Maybe because the Socialist DemocRATS in the state would have likely turned the tables on us and got a vote for a Constitional Amendment that would make it impossible to ever do anything in the future.

I remember having pro-gun Governors and an actual Republican U.S. Senator in CA. The pendulum will swing depending on the demographics of the State. As long as the soon to be majority Latino population continues to vote overwhelmingly for socialist DemocRATS, the State will stay the same or perhaps worsen for some time to come. That may take some time to change.

If any of you Californians on THR voted for Gray Davis, Jack Scott, Don Perata, John Burton, Sheila Kuehel (sp??) and a host of other socialist Democrats in the Legislature, you can point the finger at yourselves for what is happening.

Look at the voting records on the anti gun legislation that went into effect since that S*** bird Gray Davis came to power. You may have found 1 Republican voting for more gun control. That would be Bruce McPherson. You maybe have 1 Democrat that is remotely gun freindly and that is Dean Florez. However, he has two faces on a number of issues and I don't think you can really trust him on the 2A.

Jnojr,

Keep trying. I didn't say it can't be done. I tried for a very long time to no avail. It will take MONEY and organization. Most of the sheep there think registration of handguns and the banning of the evil "black rifles" is just fine and dandy.

M1911Owner
April 21, 2004, 12:26 PM
But the point here was that from the past year's effort, you have the contact information of people that can do the footwork for you.I believe that's illegal. As I recall, there's standard boilerplate printed on the petition to the effect that using the information signers write on the petition for any purpose other than submitting the petition is illegal.

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