[mrming]

Is there any such thing as a program for managing C&R records, rather than writing everything out?

[Carlos]

Yes. But, Your Bound Book would do the job.

If you want to computerize it, use Excel or whatever spreadsheet or word processing software your computer has. A bound book, within ATFE proscribed regulations, is still required.

If you would like help, let me know. I'd be happy to create a basic book for you, with instructions, as long as you have Word or Excel.

Let me know via PM or email.

[mrming]

Nah, i'm a programmer and was curious. I can set something up in excel easily enough. Just would have thought ATF would have been happier with a program that can print everything out in the same format as the bound book, keep them from having to read everyone's chicken scratch.

[ocabj]

You could just store the records in SQL. Then you can write whatever app you wanted to interface with the database (PHP, Perl, MS Access + SQL ODBC, etc).

[mrming]

That'd be the plan. However, if the BATF won't accept computer generated records in a non-bound notebook, sorta looses any practicality.

[ocabj]

Well, if you're writing the app from scratch, then you can make the output look however you want it to look. In this case, you would make it look like an ATF approved bound book page.

For example, store the data in your app with the SQL/MYSQL/MSSQL/Orcale/whatever backend and print out hardcopies via a print function in the application.

Within my department at work, most information is now stored in MySQL. Years ago before I was here, lots of stuff was just stored in Excel and MS Access. MySQL allows us to generate custom reports and are applications to access the SQL databases are fairly portable (HTML+PHP+MYSQL). If someone up the chain wants a report and we can't generate one with a current app, I can just write a script or app that will do what they need.

If anything, you could use this Bound Book PDF with form boxes (http://ocabj.ucr.edu/docs/Bound_Book_form.pdf) (330kbytes). You could type in the data and keep the soft copy as well as print out a hard copy. Note that you'll probably want to adjust the alignment (vertical and horizontal) on some of the form boxes. I added the form boxes a couple weeks ago, but I never fine tuned the boxes (they're all set to Verdana 6 right now).

[TimRB]

"However, if the BATF won't accept computer generated records in a non-bound notebook, sorta looses any practicality."

I thought they specifically allowed computer records instead of a traditional bound book if you got a special waiver. I would call BATF up and ask.

Tim

[mrming]

ocabj: MySQL is good for that, but it doesnt support the bells and whistles of Oracle. Perl is great for text formatted reports.. but if you need something a bit more complex Crystal reports is supposed to be awesome.

Too bad I don't have any Crystal reports experience, just oracle development. Oh well.

Tim, thanks for putting some iron back in my spine. I'll give them a call tomorrow, see if they can give me an answer.

[RUT]

>>If anything, you could use this Bound Book PDF with form boxes (330kbytes). You could type in the data and keep the soft copy as well as print out a hard copy.<<

This is the scheme I use, and it works great!!

[Carlos]

I mean, let's be practical.

Going to build a huge Access, or SQL, or Oracle database, application to handle just how many records?

LOL.

Seems a bit like "super" overkill.

Stick with the bound book. Always wanted a chance to work with Oracle. :(

[mrming]

The tables for such a thing wouldn't be all that bad. But your right, it'd be 30-40 megs for just the lightweight database systems.


Oracle isn't bad to work with. But the truth is databases don't exist alone ;-) Always a question of what they use for a front end that makes or breaks the job. Wouldnt mind finding myself a little linux admin job at this point...

[Carlos]

I'd like to learn Linux.

My only training in relational databases was at a community college a couple of terms, using Access 97. I enjoyed it and need to get back into it, and practice. I could buy 3 or 4 C&R weapons considering the money I spent on the database reference books I have. ;)

This thread has convinced me to build such a database. Who thinks I should stick with Access 97 or use 2000? I have both.

Once finished, I'll post a thread and upload the file to anybody who wants it. With my limited training, I'll create the tables, set the relationships, build a query or two or three, and a basic form or two for data entry and viewing. Need to teach myself Visual Basic for macros and beyond.

[mrming]

Access is the more common. MSDE is another database engine, but it has no front end. It happens to be free if you have a recent version of MS Office or Visual studio.

[Carlos]

MSDE? What's that stand for? Does it come with Microsoft Office Professional 2000, somewhere?

[cslinger]

I have a quicky one that I built to keep track of both my C&R and Modern Firearms purchases, serial numbers, cost, etc. I'd be happy to email anybody a copy with a couple of FAKE records in it so you could see if it would work for you.

Mine was built using Access and has worked reasonably well for estimated firearm expenses and purchasing trends etc.

Once again, this is not some programming work of art, just a quicky/semi user friendly dbase. Email or PM me if you want a copy.

Chris

[Desert 45 Rat]

Try this http://www.nmcollector.net/nmguncollector/ I got it from Aimsurplus and sent in a letter to ATF and have permission to use this in place of bound book, It's way too easy to use and a blessing.:D

[Carlos]

Sweet.

[TechBrute]

You guys are amusing me. If you build an SQL based DB for <200 firearms, you have too much time on your hands, and need to spend more time at the range.:D

I'm a reformed geek (moved to mgmt) and just have an xls file with all my insurable stuff. It probably took less time for me to enter my first 200 lines (not all firearms, don't worry) than for you to whip up the DB. :D

If any of you are looking to market your DB, don't forget who your market is. I'd be willing to bet that 90%+ of gun shops don't have more than one computer, so an SQL server would be overkill and cost prohibitive. For personal collections, I can't imagine how an SQL server would be a good solution for anything. How many people actually know how to back up an SDQL database, anyway? It's a lot harder than burning your xls onto a cd or throwing on a thumbdrive.

MSDE would be a far better alternative for small solutions than SQL. It's kind of like a SQL-compliant version of Access's backend (Jet), doesn't require a service or daemon, and easier to back up.

As far as Bound Book requirements, it's pretty hard to beat that PDF file. I mean shoot, how many pages would you have to fill to make the development of something more complicated worth it?

[aspen]

MSDE is SQL and SQL is MSDE. They are the same code base, MSDE or Microsoft Data Engine is just a neutered version of MSSQL. All backup and system maintenance is still done through T-SQL commands.

The limitations of the MSDE are as follows.

1) No graphical management tools (like Enterprise manager)
2) No Support of OLAP, data mining, and data warehousing features
3) Database size is limited to 2GB
4) Performance degrades when more than five Transact-SQL batches are executed concurrently.

A good document to reference can be found at http://www.microsoft.com/sql/techinfo/planning/ChoosEd.doc It goes over all of the different features and versions of MSSQL.

You do not need to use Jet to run or access MSDE (Jet can be used to access Data stored in MSDE if the programmer so chooses through older DAO code or through DSN or Access table links.

The cool thing about the MSDE is that it is free to distribute with you applications if you own one of the qualifying development products like Visual Studio .NET

MSDE is great for developers and small workgroup applications because it will run under XP and you have the same basic environment as full MSSQL.

This sounds like a cool project let me know if you need and help with programming or design.

[Carlos]

Thanks.

[Remington Outfitters]

There's a software company named Coloseum Software that has a real good application that we use that replaces the hard copy of the bound book with alot of other features such as realtime connection to NICS. More and more FFL dealers are using the software and swear by it. Website address is www.coloseumsoftware.com. Our salesrep is named Wes he sent us a free copy of the software. He might do the same for you if asked. His email address is wes@coloseumsoftware.com

[asknight]

http://www.somanyroads.org/gunsafe/

[a203hawk]

I know itsa a little late but here is some quick information about the topic:

(E1) What is a "bound book?" [Back]

A "bound book" is a permanently bound book or an orderly arrangement of loose-leaf pages which must be maintained on the business premises. The format must follow that prescribed in the regulations, and the pages must be numbered consecutively.

[27 CFR 478.121 and 478.125]




(E2) May a dealer keep more than one "bound book" at the same time? [Back]

Yes. A dealer in firearms is not limited to using only one "bound book." It may be convenient for a dealer to account for different brands or types of firearms in separate "bound books."

(E9) May a licensee maintain computer records in lieu of the "bound book?"[Back]

Yes. The Director of Industry Operations or other designated ATF official must approve a request for a record-keeping variance before the licensee may use a computer system in lieu of the "bound book" record required by the regulations.

[27 CFR 478.22 and 478.125(h)]