[DigMe]

Well, looks like bad news for family guys who carry concealed...

http://www.local6.com/news/3010063/detail.html


Report: Disney Testing Metal Detectors, Screening Devices
Visitors May Be Screened Like Airport Travelers

POSTED: 3:59 pm EDT April 15, 2004
UPDATED: 5:34 pm EDT April 15, 2004

ORLANDO, Fla. -- Walt Disney World will be testing magnetic-style screening devices or metal detectors after hours at its theme parks, sources tell Local 6 News Thursday.

Although security was increased at Disney parks after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, only open-bag security checks are currently performed at the entrances to theme parks.

The devices would possibly screen Disney visitors like airport passengers.

Security experts familiar with the story told Local 6 News that the move is a critical development in Disney's security agenda.

One of the possible tests at the parks could include how potential interference from Disney's monorail systems would affect magnometers, according to the report.

Disney executives would not confirm or deny the testing on park grounds. However, a U.S. Secret Service spokesman said major corporations around the world are testing new security technologies.

"Disney, being the leaders in their field, is always willing to try and experiment with the latest advances to enhance the experiences of their customers," U.S. Secret Service spokesman Robert Flaherty said.

Local 6 News reported that possible security testing at the parks was not prompted by any new threats against Disney.

Watch Local 6 News for more on this story.


brad cook

[Dr.Rob]

"Please unload and show clear and hand your gun to the mouse, Donald Duck will issue you a claim check, enjoy your stay at Disneyland!"

[cidirkona]

Honestly, if I ran a place like that, I'd only allow concealed carry to not scare off the anti's money. Using a weapons check doens't sound like a bad idea either, but maybe just at each individual ride... ?
-Colin

[mete]

But I need my carry gun to protect my child from being molested by Tigger !!

[RobW]

Just don't go there and let them know why!

I don't do business with "Liberals" and PC companies that subjugate to them.

It's time to make THEM fully responsible for EVERYTHING you could have prevented with your CCW! Why not finally file lawsuits that make sense?

Oh, I know, the judges, the leftovers of LOVE, PEACE, SEX, DRUGS, AND ROCK 'N' ROLL!

[Standing Wolf]

Is the same Disney that's pouring millions of dollars into Michael Moore's next screed, or some other Disney?

[del4]

They just had a big price increase too. Are they trying to lose business?

[JohnBT]

No exception for mouse guns?

JT

[WT]

With all the cases of food poisoning at Disneyworld, they are probably worried that somebody is gonna' shoot the cook.

[Blue Line]

that was just the saltpeter they put in for Tigger that you tasted!

[The Real Hawkeye]

This is really bad news for me. I just today received my Florida Concealed Weapon Permit, and am planning a move to just North of the Orlando area. Could my luck be any worse? Now I will not go to Disney, and I will tell them why. Gun-free zones amount to mass-murderers welcome zones. I don't want to be anywhere near a place that is literally inviting mass murderers in.

[TBeck]

I went thru the bag search a few weeks ago and was able to outsmart the "security" and enter the park with my fannypack unmolested. It really pissed me off that after coming all the way from Goofy 27 and standing in line for the ferry/monorail, they pulled this crap at the entrance to main street.

If you don't want me to carry my gun in your park, post a sign where I can see it BEFORE I go through your rigamarole to get in. Don't pull this search business after I've spent an hour getting to this point, and then "out" me in front of hundreds of people.

I wonder if they search all the delivery vehicles coming into the park with the same thoroughness? How about the employees? Tom Clancy got the jumbo jetliner suicide attack thing right years before OBL tried it. He also postulated a terrorist attack on an amusement park in another book. In that one some of the terrorists get jobs in the park prior to the attack. I wonder if he'll get that one right too?

[gulogulo1970]

You know, it really doesn't seem like that bad an idea, to me, for theme parks to ban guns if they want to. Come on, it's Disney World not Beruit.

Really, its seems like some people wouldn't come out from under the bed unless they have a gun on their hip. "Cover me honey, I'm going to get the mail."

Now don't get me wrong, I support their right to ban guns from their property and your right to boycott that decision as well. I've boycotted several anti-gun businesses myself. But if you can't go to a theme park unless your armed you probably should stay home.

Plus, if its a terrorist attack your worrying about, guns will probably not be much of a help anyway since they will probably use poison gas, bio-weapons or explosives to affect as many people as possible. And, hostage situations(in which a gun could be handy) would probably be better left to SWAT teams.

Maybe, I'm living with my head in the sand, but there are some situations where you just got to play the odds and don't worry and enjoy life. If that is unacceptable to some I truely respect that point of view and don't want to change your mind. We don't have to like Disney's actions but we have to repect Disney's property rights as well. I just think what they want to do is not unreasonable to me.

[jamz]

http://www.mricenter.com/jamz/flamesuit.jpg

[Tamara]

They sure didn't have anything like this in place last time I was in Orlando (around SHOT show time last year.)

Oh well, guess Mickey Rat doesn't need any more of my cash. It was fun while it lasted...

[Dionysusigma]

Is that a new character? :p

Seriously, when I was younger and my parents took me there, I found that paying huge sums of money just so you could wait in line for an hour (per ride) and only go on 4 rides a day, plus charging $12.00 for a 20 oz. bottle of water (not to mention how much food cost) just didn't seem worth it at all.

It won't be missed.

[Rikki]

The real reason is they are tired of replacing thos stupid charaters in the It's a small world after all ride. I couldn't think of a better place to have a 870.

(high pitched singing) It's a small world after all! BLAM!

[Standing Wolf]

But if you can't go to a theme park unless your armed you probably should stay home.

Why should I have to surrender my civil rights? Why should I or anyone else be needlessly subjected to criminal predation?

[Lone_Gunman]

I don't do business with "Liberals" and PC companies that subjugate to them.


RobW, you wouldn't happen to be using any Microsoft products right now would you?

[Tamara]

But if you can't go to a theme park unless your armed you probably should stay home.

Oddly enough, I'm always armed there, too.

Being the most innocuous person you're likely to meet, having someone offer to pull my teeth for no good reason tends to make me nervous. :scrutiny:

[Mad Man]

P.S. For a really relevant fictional parallel of what's happening in America regarding our transformation into a police state, and the proper reaction of the people thereto, read Chapter VIII The Scouring of the Shire, in J.R.R. Tolkien's Return of the King, which is book III of The Lord of the Rings. Very meaningful for our times.

P.P.S. It's not in the movie version. Wonder why.



Or, instead of being a part of some conspiracy to disarm us, it could be that Return of the King (http://imdb.com/title/tt0167260/) was already 3 1/2 hours long -- and this was after 2 other 3 hour + movies. It was, like a lot of material from the books, cut for length.

The scouring was briefly shown as a "possible future" sequence in the first film. The trilogy was just fine without it.

[DigMe]

The scouring was omitted simply because Peter Jackson just didn't like that part of the book and never had any intentions of filming it.

brad cook

[papercut]

I wonder if they search all the delivery vehicles coming into the park with the same thoroughness? How about the employees?

Hmmm....I own a small amount of stock in Disney. I'm not going to the annual shareholders meeting this year, but I think I'll try to make it next year--after they've implemented the search-our-customers policy--and ask this very question....

[DigMe]

gulogulo,

Personally I'm not worried about anything. I was just oberving that it sucks for anyone who carries regularly that they'll have to disarm for the two to three days they are in Disney World. It's just a pain in the @$$ when you carry regularly as a law abiding citizen and have to accomodate to someone simply because either they just don't understand the whole concept of safe, law-abiding concealed carry or they are giving in to their insurance company.

Why should theme parks ban law-abiding concealed carry? Why do you think that's a good idea? Does violence and crime only occur in Beirut? You could make a similar irrelevant statement about any place in the world (except for Beirut of course). I wonder if home invasion victims ever thought "It's my living room...it's not Beirut!" Hmmm...the possibilities are endless..."It's just a dark alley in south central LA...it's not Beirut." That's very true though...all those places are indeed not Beirut. I wonder what the poor guys in Beirut say though.....I bet they say "It's Beirut...not Somalia."

brad cook

[DigMe]

Is that a new character?

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=940826

Kind of an older character actually.

brad cook

[gulogulo1970]

If you carry a concealed weapon or have a weapon for defence, you at one time worried about something happening and prepared for it. I have no problem with that.

I don't like the fact that Disney doesn't post that guns are a "no, no" in the park. If they are going to have that rule it should be posted.

But my point really is three fold:

1. Disney can make the rules, it's their park you are the guest. This doesn't strike me as unfair or unreasonable. And even if I am law abiding that doesn't give me the right to do what I want, wherever I want. If I go to a friends house and he says, "hey, friend no smoking please." I will abide or leave.

2. If you cannot go unarmed someplace for a short period of time you should not go there. Hey, for your own peace of mind, at least, stay home you'll be safer or go somewhere where you can be armed.

3. Take short sprints of risk. Odds are basicly on you side. If you really thought so much about real daily dangers you face on any given day you might never get in a car. I (maybe not yourself) would feel reasonablly secure if I had to go unarmed at Disney World. Maybe this seems reckless to some here. Maybe I'm brave...well I don't know about that. Maybe, I just haven't been mugged yet.

I own many guns all for protection except for two. I beleive whole heartedly in the right for CCL and RKBA. But I wouldn't feel naked if I was force to go unarmed in Disney World. I'm just not that afraid I guess.

I am not trying to change anyone's mind, I'm only trying to share my point of view (which may be wrong to you). If no weapons allowed in the park is a deal breaker for you, well don't go, boycott, write letters, go get 'em.

[Mad Man]

Disney can make the rules, it's their park you are the guest. This doesn't strike me as unfair or unreasonable. And even if I am law abiding that doesn't give me the right to do what I want, wherever I want. If I go to a friends house and he says, "hey, friend no smoking please." I will abide or leave.


Disney World is private property.

If the company wants to have rules that say "No Blacks," or "No Jews," or "No Republicans," or "No one over 55 years old," they have the right to do that, too.

If the blacks (or Jews, etc...) don't like it, they can boycott business that have those types of rules.

[SJG26]

GugloGuglo said:
"If you carry a concealed weapon or have a weapon for defence, you at one time worried about something happening and prepared for it. I have no problem with that.

2. If you cannot go unarmed someplace for a short period of time you should not go there. Hey, for your own peace of mind, at least, stay home you'll be safer or go somewhere where you can be armed.

3. Take short sprints of risk. Odds are basicly on you side. If you really thought so much about real daily dangers you face on any given day you might never get in a car. I (maybe not yourself) would feel reasonablly secure if I had to go unarmed at Disney World. Maybe this seems reckless to some here. Maybe I'm brave...well I don't know about that. Maybe, I just haven't been mugged yet.
"

It appears you can predict exactly when and where trouble will happen - I imagine you must be good w/ the lottery too............

I, unfortunately, do not have those skills. I did not predict that a young woman would be assaulted 2 blocks from my home( a NICE small town w/ little to no crime issues).
Nor did I envision in advance the stray dogs that recently charged my children and I at the park playground ( pepper spray worked there - but had my Sig ready too)

If you like, go to http://www.kidon.com/media-link/index.shtml , reference the local Orlando area news and read the police reports re the number of assaults and robberies that occur in the Disney lots and areas in the vicinity.

[The Real Hawkeye]

gulogulo1970, what if they used metal detectors to find individuals with false legs and arms, and didn't allow them in because they felt it was bad for their image to have such people in their park? Would that be ok with you? After all, it is their "private property," isn't it? What you have on your person, out of view, however, ought to be no one's concern, so long as it is legal. If a place is open to the general public (this is legally very different from a private residence), that includes people with a legal CCW as part of the general public, just like it includes blacks, Presbyterians, the elderly and the handicapped. That should be the law, in my opinion.

Exercising your right to be armed with a CCW does not in any way interfere with anyone elses rights. If you're private property is open to the general public for business, You should not be able legally to discriminate against those who choose to carry legally concealed for self-defense. If they want to use metal detectors, and then when they discover the CCW they ask to see your Concealed Weapon Permit, that's perfectly fine with me. That is a correct balance, in my opinion, between their property rights as a business open to the general public and my individual right to be legally armed for self-defense.

[DigMe]

gulogulo,

Ok...maybe you didn't read my post or something because you are arguing several points that I didn't make.

Really I just asked two main questions.

You originally said:

You know, it really doesn't seem like that bad an idea, to me, for theme parks to ban guns if they want to.

And I said:

Why should theme parks ban law-abiding concealed carry? Why do you think that's a good idea?

Ok to be fair though...you didn't say "it's a good idea" but why do you think it's not a bad idea? I'm just curious... I never denied that Disney has the right to do that if they want. They do indeed. But why would anyone who supports RKBA think that people banning our RKBA in their establishment is not "that bad an idea"? I just don't understand that part. This has nothing to do with worry or being afraid and much to do with our insistence on carrying out our 2nd ammendment rights on a daily basis. I don't put my pistol on every day as an afterthought because I think of things that might happen and get frightened. I just put it on. When I originally decided to start carrying concealed it wasn't out of feelings of fear but of rational thinking. I've been into shooting all of my life and decided to start carrying a gun after I got married because it was no longer just my life at stake if something bad happened and I realized that there might be situations when I might need a more extreme measure in defending my wife's life. I didn't think "OMG, I'm scared! I must carry a gun!"

Honestly I think your continual statements about us being worried and afraid are somewhat insulting and counterproductive. It has nothing to do with that and everything to do with rational, logical thought and a desire to carry out a constitutional decision I've made without impedement.

In summation:

I agree with your point number 1. That is true. Disney has that right but I feel they are irrational in doing so. They are the ones that are showing the sensationalist fear by making all guests walk through metal detectors.

Point number 2 is irrelevant to the discussion. I regularly go places without my gun and in fact I work at a school so I never carry to work but I do carry most other places. However I wouldn't feel scared if I could not carry in certain places, just inconenienced and perhaps annoyed.

Point number 3...well that's not really a point but thanks for the advice. Honestly if my family really wanted to go to Disney World I don't think that the metal detectors would keep us out and I've never said anything to that effect.

It seems like you are stereotyping all of us who carry and that you do not understand our mindset. That's fine but just know that, while you are entitled to your own opinion, your conclusions about me and probably others are incorrect period.

brad cook

[The Real Hawkeye]

This has nothing to do with worry or being afraid and much to do with our insistence on carrying out our 2nd ammendment rights on a daily basis. I don't put my pistol on every day as an afterthought because I think of things that might happen and get frightened. I just put it on.Exactly right. His suggestions to the contrary are ignorant and insulting. :fire:

[sm]

To paraphrase CRSam: "One never knows the where or when of next encounter".

Yes Disney has the right to not allow firearms, just as a private home. business.

Since concerns of Terrorism was brought up, I can think of no better place to instill fear and squash the feel good of safety than a Amusement Park. A place where one is to have fun, feel safe, and forget about the nasty realities of life.

Then one does have to drive to the Amusement Park, walk the large parking lot or take a shuttle, return the same way and drive home.

So again we have the responsible person with a CCW, whom passed background checks, training and such at risk - vulnerable . If Bad guys know this and disregard the law everyday using to their advantage to commit crimes - well terrorist for sure are going to disregard.

Granted the likelyhood of getting assaulted standing next to a costumed character is slim, what about the wife and daughter in the restroom? We have sick puppies everywhere - even in Amusement Parks. What about to and from the front entrance - BGs know you cannot carry, pretty good chance you have monies and credit cards - dang that teenage daughter of yours is a hottie in them shorts and T shirt!!

Vehicle trouble on the way home? Maybe on purpose? Tired, hungry, broke not paying attention BG follows you out of parking lot...Still thinking about the hottie for a teenager your daughter is. No biggie for a slow leak to be arranged on a tire and just follow you a bit.

This is where I get pissed. If I were going to instill fear and terror, Amusement Parks, Athletic events, Malls, Large Places of Worship, and Wal-Mart ( symbol of evil greedy shopping Americans), College Campuses...

See if the BGs know they can follow that hottie from a College Campus , A campus that does not allow firearms, well easy prey. Granted while in the classroom the pretty slim chance of something happening. She does have to get to and fro. What about the part time job she works and does not leave until 11 pm, has a drive home and car trouble occurs?

Paranoid - Nope! Just being situational aware. BGs and terrorists do not give laws and "what is right and wrong" a second thought. They do use them to their advantage tho.

If one goes to the mailbox at the same time everday , walks the dog at the same time everyday, well some folks do take notice. Folks don't always set the alarm ( if they have one) , perfect time to sneak and be waiting for the occupant to return.

I'm not as concerned where I currently live of being broken into while home. It is the entering and leaving.

Some stuff just keeps an honest man honest. BGs and terrorists ain't wired that way.

[Chip Dixon]

gulogulo1970,

You live in a nice fantasy world. I hope you are comfortable there. The only time I was a victim of an armed robbery was when I was in a friend's home. This was in a nice, surburban area. Crackheads came in with one of my friend's neighbors, (whom my buddy always had a good repertoire with -- it turns out that the neighbor owed the crackheads some money and they said that he had to set up people to rob or they'd off him) racked a 40 caliber glock and made us empty all our pockets. They took everything, and then ran off. I was just hanging out in my friend's house..

I feel lucky to be alive. He could have just shot us all after we cooperated. The guy was obviously messed up. If someone tried to pull that on me now they'd get a .45 in the head and 2 in the chest instead of my wallet.

Even in boy scouts they teach you "be prepared". If a business wishes to make me dangerously vulnerable to senseless acts of violence, I won't be going there anymore.

Asking someone to not smoke in their house is completely different from telling them to come unarmed. Smoking is hazardous to one's health and it leaves a filthy stinking residue all over the place. Having my 1911 in my IWB hurts no one and nothing, and has the added bonus of being able to prevent my death and the death of those around me. Telling me that I can't wear it is a bunch of liberal, socialist, utopian nonsense.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Chip, great points. Here's what I hope happens with this. I hope someone keeps careful records of the number of muggings, rapes, assaults, murders that happen in and around Disney, and then compares that number to one year after the new policy is implemented. Then, based on that, someone with a CWP (who was forced to go unarmed), who is victimized after the new policy, uses those stats to sue the pants of Mickey. Maybe that kind of suit will become a trend, and then Mickey will drop the policy.

[gulogulo1970]

No, all I am saying is I am ready to take that death defying risk of going unarmed into Disney World [gasp]. I would not lose any sleep over this.

So, is everyone that does not have a CWL (that could legally have one, mind you) living in a fantasy world? You can be situationally aware and not be armed. I don't live in condition white in the least.

If someone came onto your property and told you what you could or couldn't do on your own property. I would bet most of you would get pissed. You have no right, zero right, to do what you please on others property if they don't want you to. Property rights are just as important to a free people as the right to free speech or the right for self protection. Where rights clash one has to give way. And in my mind the right to make the rules on my property supercedes your right to want to be armed on my property.

DigMe: I think a place meant mostly for children could be a gun free area without much of a problem in my mind. I think of the throngs of people and the rides for instance and weapon retention comes to my mind. Pick pockets are the most common form of crime in theme parks. A gun skittering across the asphalt between my kids legs in Disney World is something I could do without. I don't fear CCL holders at Disney world. Its the 16-17 year old gang member punks with a gun in Diseney World I worry about. I just don't have a solution on how you check to keep gang members unarmed out without metal detectors. Any ideas yourself? BTW I'm not trying to accuse anyone of cowardice for carrying.

The Real Hawkeye: What you suggest will be the down fall of concealed carry business bans. If a business will not let you go armed, they at that point are responsible for your safety(not that we aren't responsible for our own safety, ever really) legally. If they fail in this charge, they should be sued. When a enough large businesses are brought to their knees over wrongful death lawsuits they probably will change their tune.

I'm trying really hard not to offend anyone with my views. So far I don't find any of the comments about my veiws to be insulting or out of line. You don't know how weird it is for me to be on the liberal side of any argument. This is not the place I'm used to being on. You guys are making me feel unclean.

[buy guns]

I went thru the bag search a few weeks ago and was able to outsmart the "security" and enter the park with my fannypack unmolested.


i wouldnt doubt that at all. the bag checks they have right now are the definition of false security. you think they would be able to find something better for senior rentacops to do.

i couldnt imagine how long the wait would be to get inside if they added metal detectors. i think disney has been going downhill since they got rid of mr. toad's wild ride.

[The Real Hawkeye]

If someone came onto your property and told you what you could or couldn't do on your own property. I would bet most of you would get pissed. You have no right, zero right, to do what you please on others property if they don't want you to. Property rights are just as important to a free people as the right to free speech or the right for self protection. Where rights clash one has to give way. And in my mind the right to make the rules on my property supercedes your right to want to be armed on my property.Listen, we as a society have apparantly decided that, while you may keep anyone you like off of your non-commercial property, you do not, as a business owner, have an absolute right to hold your business open to the general public while simultaneously discriminating against, for example, the handicapped. If a man wishes to enter your store in a wheel chair, you are free to either close shop to everyone, or allow him in with his wheelchair, even if you don't personally like wheelchairs. I am not saying that this is good or bad, but it is what we have collectively decided as a society regarding businesses open to the public. This is not the same as a private residence. Once you open up for the general public, there are limits to how you may discriminate. You may discriminate based on dress codes and conduct (for example), but you may not discriminate against the handicapped. In the same way, I see no great violation of property rights by passing a law requiring businesses which are open to the general public not to discriminate against those who carry concealed legally.

I just don't have a solution on how you check to keep gang members unarmed out without metal detectors. Any ideas yourself?Like I said before, metal detectors used to keep illegally armed people out is ok with me. Once you show your CWP, however, they should just let you go your way. I would like to see legislation to this effect regarding business open to the general public. Otherwise the permit is really not all that valuable. You'd be free to carry it in the streets and in your home. What good is that?

[Evil_Ed]

gulogulo1970,

I live in Florida and know some people that work at various different theme parks. There are a suprising number of muggings, burglaries, etc that go on in the Disney parking lots at after dark. I would not go there without my CCW piece.

As to refusing access to people based on their posession of a gun. I disagree with it on principle and for practical reasons as well. Requiring people to be disarmed in their park (which is open to the public) they are in effect disarming you for your trip to and from your car and/or hotel. If they want to disarm people they are taking responsibility for their safety and as such they need to offer armed escorts to and from your vehicle and/or hotel. If they are not prepared for that responsibility then they should back off and leave law abiding citizens alone. I am of the opinion that each individual has rights over their property and self...those rights end where they begin to infringe upon another persons rights. Disarming the populace is a large infringement in that it leaves them defenseless to the criminal element and potentially puts them in danger of injury and/or death. So from a freedom/rights stand point I don't agree with their ability to refuse me my right to defend myself.

[RobW]

Lone_Gunman: You mean that software-company Microsoft that was harrassed by the Klintonians because they refused to donate to the Democratic Party?

[DigMe]

No, all I am saying is I am ready to take that death defying risk of going unarmed into Disney World [gasp]. I would not lose any sleep over this.

I think most of us here have made it clear that we agree with that too. Those that wouldn't go to Disney World have also made it clear that it's not out of fear that they have made that decision. I don't see why you keep bringing that up and confusing ethical decisions with fear and paranoia.

If someone came onto your property and told you what you could or couldn't do on your own property. I would bet most of you would get pissed.

Yes, we would. No one is saying otherwise. So far no one here has claimed to tell Disney what they can and cannot do. We're free to discuss their decision all we want though and make our decisions about whether we will or won't partake of Disney's offerings and whether or not it's a good idea. Please stick to the actual discussion.

I think a place meant mostly for children could be a gun free area without much of a problem in my mind. I think of the throngs of people and the rides for instance and weapon retention comes to my mind. Pick pockets are the most common form of crime in theme parks. A gun skittering across the asphalt between my kids legs in Disney World is something I could do without.

See there is where my problem is. I'm just surprised to see someone on this gun board propagating the belief that lawful concealed carry is dangerous. That's just the kind of thinking that the anti's want us to partake in and we cannot start believing it. If a pickpocket starts to take my gun out of my waistband I'm definitely going to know it. Pickpockets are a risk anywhere you go though so it shouldn't be an argument specific to Disney World. Retention and pick pockets are no more issues in Disney World than anywhere else. We can't give into the hysteria that the anti's always inevitably attempt to create when a new state brings up concealed carry legislation...it's the same idea here "What if someone's gun falls out and goes off and kills all the children?!" Yeah...that's not the same thing you said, just a more extreme version of it.


I don't fear CCL holders at Disney world. Its the 16-17 year old gang member punks with a gun in Disney World I worry about. I just don't have a solution on how you check to keep gang members unarmed out without metal detectors.


Wait...now you're worried? I thought it was us that was worried. Great!! Now we're all worried! :evil:

What the real hawkeye said is a perfectly reasonable solution, however, I just know that Disney is NOT going to put up metal detectors and then allow CHL holders in. Most people that know their fairly recent liberal history would agree.

I'm trying really hard not to offend anyone with my views. So far I don't find any of the comments about my veiws to be insulting or out of line.


Hey man, let me be the first to say thanks for chiming in. Where would the world be without thoughtful discourse? However, let's keep it thoughtful and stick to the discussion. The only thing I was mildly offended by was not your opinion (As is probably the case with most of us - I honestly value your opinion and I value the free debate that we may have on it) but your twisting (or maybe it was just misunderstanding) of our reasons for disagreeing with Disney's decision as well as our reasons for carrying a firearm. To call or even imply that someone carries simply because he or she is scared or paranoid is an affront on one fo the deepest levels because we are simply exercising our constitutional rights and believe strongly in those rights. Maybe some DO carry and are scared or paranoid...maybe they have a reason to be scared...however for most of us I'd have to say that's just not the case and displays a severe misunderstanding of the issues that we are dealing with in the struggle for the RKBA. Personally I think these discussions are fun and thought provoking and sometimes I learn new things. At the very least you can know for sure that there is at least one person who isn't at all offended by your opinions and respects your right to have them (just respect my right to try and change them!! j/k :neener: ). This probably goes for most people here but I can only express my feelings with certainty.

brad cook

[rock jock]

I'll still go. Disney is a very low-risk environment, much more so than the roadways we drive every day.

[PaladinVC]

I think we can all agree that the Disney Corporation is well within their rights to enact this new practice of scanning visitors to its park. We can also agree that the grounds of Walt Disney World are no more dangerous than the average college campus, a place where guns are characteristically forbidden.

Asserting here that Disney is unwise in its decision is perfectly acceptable, but don't pretend that some new high of authoritarian oppression is being reached here. In fact, that article doesn't say anything at all about forbidding the legal carry of firearms by licensed citizens. Perhaps they'll just scan you, find your gun, ask to see your permit, and then politely remind you not to let any of the other patrons borrow it.

If they have a standing policy of restricting carry, and you've all just been easily sneaking guns onto the premises, then shame on you and hurrah for stricter standards. If you can sneak your perfectly legal gun into the park, then less reputable folk can no doubt get theirs in, as well. Step up security and keep the Mouse Ninjas trained up, and the level of safety will be as high or higher than it would be with a bunch of crotchety, middle-aged, "Molon-Labe!" hat-wearing RKBAers hauling out their Kahrs to try to assess and neutralize the threat every time a balloon pops. :neener: I suspect that the objection here is not to the increased danger, but to the increased dependence. Libertarians can't stand having someone else take responsibility for defending them (or for anything else, for that matter!)

If you're worried about safety in the parking lots, then they should just install security lockers so you can carry right up to the gate, exchange your gun for a little regained youth, and go stand in some lines. When you get done, you show your claim ticket, strap your pistol to your candy-engorged waist, and head for the family chariot.

In conclusion, Disney's policy doesn't do us any essential wrong, and Disney World is about as safe as a place can be, as long as you're careful what you eat.

[rhetorical question, do not hijack thread]
On the topic of carrying in amusement parks, how frequently do you suppose pistols clatter to the ground under rollercoasters or other "upside down" rides? I've seen wallets, glasses, watches and shoes down there, and I doubt my gun is more secure to me than my wristwatch.[/rhetorical question]

Can't we get an idea of the effect this will have by comparing the incidence of serious violence on the premises of Disney World and Disney Land? Florida to California is a pretty big contrast, RKBA-wise. Heck, throw in Euro-Disney, though I think fourteen patrons may be too small a sample. :)

[FTG-05]

Post deleted by moderator.

[gulogulo1970]

Quote:"Listen, we as a society have apparantly decided that, while you may keep anyone you like off of your non-commercial property, you do not, as a business owner, have an absolute right to hold your business open to the general public while simultaneously discriminating against, for example, the handicapped."

Well my problem with this augument is you can't discriminate against people for what they are (Mexican, handicapped, ect.) but you can discriminate people for what they do (behavior). You are not a different kind of person if you carry a concealed weapon. You can't do anything about the color of their skin but you can modify your behavior. If you are behaving in a way that is not acceptable to the business, you don't get to come in or they may ask you to leave. They make the rules, you can follow them or stay home. Now if the state of Florida changes the law and states you can't discriminate CC persons from any business well, now you got a better point.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Go Albin!!!

[The Real Hawkeye]

gulogulo1970, in my opinion, the personal decision to carry a concealed weapon is just that, a personal decision. It should not be subject to other people's opinions anymore than the color of my undershorts. What if they asked everyone to expose their undershorts to security guards as they enter, because the owner has something against red ones? Would you go along with that as a property right for a business open to the general public? Carrying concealed is a private matter, and has nothing to do with "Conduct." Conduct is the way you behave or carry yourself, and has no more to do with carrying concealed than it has to do with wearing red undershorts.

[Andrew Rothman]

I'm not convinced that concealed carry is a behavior.

Shoting up the place, now that's a behavior, but if an ordinary person can't distinguish someone carrying from someone not carrying, I think the "behavior" arguument is weak.

I agree that the law needs to change to protect people's rights to protect themselves -- even on private property.

[DigMe]

In fact, that article doesn't say anything at all about forbidding the legal carry of firearms by licensed citizens. Perhaps they'll just scan you, find your gun, ask to see your permit, and then politely remind you not to let any of the other patrons borrow it.

:scrutiny:

Are we both talking about the same Disney World?

Here's to hoping that it does goes down like that though.

brad cook

[DigMe]

I don't give my money to the fag lovers anyway, but that's another discussion.

Yes, that is another discussion. Why bring it here? It's a hateful comment and it doesn't do anything for our cause. Leave it at the door.

brad cook

[pax]

Attacks on other people's sexual orientation are not allowed on THR.

THR exists to further a particular agenda: that of responsible firearms ownership for as many people as possible. In view of the fact that our members are homosexual, bisexual, heterosexual, or simply sexual, and in view of the fact that our members are atheist, agnostic, buddhist, muslim, Catholic, protestant, Mormon, JW, and pagan -- it would be really a bad idea for the moderators to allow anyone to get away with slamming anyone else's sexual orientation or religion.

Your Grandma's old rule, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" applies to both topics.

pax

Conflict is inevitable, but combat is optional. -- Max Lucado

[TonyB]

Thre's gettin got be less and less places I can go......:rolleyes:

[Bainx]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But if you can't go to a theme park unless your armed you probably should stay home.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and, Tamara said:

--------------------------------------------------------
Oddly enough, I'm always armed there, too.
--------------------------------------------------------

Tamara has got it right.

Thank God, I have spent my last dollar at that place.
I did however, at the last tour, get to witness [socialist] John Glenn lift off in the space shuttle. Although 50 miles away, you could see the thing go up with great detail. I knew the time of lift-off and went outside of the Magic Kingdom to view it. The sheeple coming in and going out of the place simply did not see/hear/tune-in/know/care anything about it even with me shouting at them and telling them.
They just looked at me with blank stares and went about their way.

I don't think they would react if you lit dynamite under them.

Simply amazing

[Gewehr98]

If you're worried about safety in the parking lots, then they should just install security lockers so you can carry right up to the gate, exchange your gun for a little regained youth, and go stand in some lines. When you get done, you show your claim ticket, strap your pistol to your candy-engorged waist, and head for the family chariot.

In conclusion, Disney's policy doesn't do us any essential wrong, and Disney World is about as safe as a place can be, as long as you're careful what you eat.

One of the primary reasons for folks getting concealed carry permits is the ability to defend life and limb in that timeframe before police response eventually happens. And while I'm entertained by the idea that Disney & Co. have a Tactical Rat team staged somewhere in the vicinity of Magic Mountain, I doubt very much that it could or would respond any faster to a violent crime there than a similar event would be covered by law enforcement units in the rest of Orange County.


And I know I'm not the only one who considers Walt Disney World a juicy target for acts of terrorism. It offers a very high body count for a minimum investment - hence their closing for as long as they did post 9/11. Granted, I'm the one who asks stewardesses if I can sit next to any visibly nervous passengers of Middle Eastern descent, (and sometimes get my wish) but if something's going to break loose in a seething mass of theme park humanity and threaten myself or my family, they're more than welcome to try.

[sm]

Gewehr98,
I agree 110%.

Situational awareness always. Thinking outside the box is healthy.

[larry_minn]

gulogulo1970
"If someone came onto your property and told you what you could or couldn't do on your own property. I would bet most of you would get pissed. You have no right, zero right, to do what you please on others property if they don't want you to. Property rights are just as important to a free people as the right to free speech or the right for self protection. Where rights clash one has to give way. And in my mind the right to make the rules on my property supercedes your right to want to be armed on my property"
I take it you don't own any property? People try to tell me dang near daily what I can/can't should/should not do on my own land. They try to FORCE me to make changes THEY think should/need/must be done. And I live where its good? I read in a town they have to get permission before they insulate their garage, put new doors on their house, remodel bathroom, etc. I am told what/when/where I can/can/t burn/dig/bury/drive/park/etc. I get calls every few weeks about Government person wants to waste couple hours going over MY property to tell me what to do. A person who lives in town and mows 50 sq feet. Many are learning to leave me alone. (I have plenty of room behind the house and know how to use a shovel)
Heck I had to pay a Lawyer to send certified copy/letter to avoid fines/order to put in sewer system that WILL fail in less then 10 yrs. (has at everyone elses around here) I use GRAVITY which when it fails I won't care about sewage.

[Logistar]

/rant on

I just don't get it. This is a FREE country last time I checked. Disney (or any other private place) can make up rules if they want. If you wanna go... go.

But being the free country this is... if decisions like this are SUPPORTED by all you guys who say... I'll go anyway... I'm not afraid at DISNEYWORLD... I will disarm for them.

Well, when the next business bans weapons, then the next.... will you still be supporting them too? When ALL businesses realize this is now "normal" and you can't carry ANYWHERE despite spending $$$ on a now useless CCW, will you complain?

Reminds me of a old saying..... goes SOMETHING like this:

"They came for the _____. I wasn't one of them so I did nothing. Then they came for the _____. I didn't do anything then either. Then they came for me. " (If anyone can recall the correct words I'd appreciate it.)

If you don't vote, don't complain about our leaders. If you support antis, don't complain when we have no guns. Maybe my boycott of places that attempt to squash my rights won't stop it, but at least I will be able to complain with a clear conscious!

And if we all stood united, maybe we COULD make a difference.

/rant off

[PaladinVC]

"First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me. "

Pastor Niemoller

[flatrock]

A crowded place like Disney would be a horrible place to have to actually use your gun in self defense. A miss, or a shot that overpenetrates could easily hit an innocent person.

Fortunately, crowded places like that are relatively safe.

The only time you'd likely have to draw your weapon in such a place is to stop someone who's trying to commit mass murder, and is not concerned with their own safety.

If that did happen, a CCW holder could save a considerable number of lives.

Disney wants to prevent that situation by keeping all firearms out, unless they're in the hands of security or law enforcment. If they could keep all guns out (including from employees and delivery people) then it might be effective.

However, their policy is only really likely to disarm law abiding people who will follow their rules. Criminals who really want to get guns inside the park won't likely have a lot of trouble doing so.

[PaladinVC]

Flatrock, the policy will disarm the law-abiders. The metal detectors and searches will disarm the lawbreakers, and the ninja in the Goofy suit will neutralize the criminal masterminds that get through anyway.

[Logistar]

Thanks PaladinVC, that was it.

- I was on Bourbon Street not long ago. MOST of the time I could not have fired a shot without a real chance of hitting innocent people. But occasionally you might get a shot AND what about getting TO and FROM the "impractical to shoot" location?

When I walked down to the Mississippi River from Bourbon Street it got kinda lonely. (I wished there were a few more people around.) No problem if I needed a shot there. So should I leave it in the room because I might not be able to use it in "some"of the locations I will be visiting?

Sorry, I'll be quiet for awhile! ;)

[cidirkona]

Sounds like it would be a good idea for the 'more likely to not come out the back even from close quarters' firestorm .380 with expanding hydroshocks!

-Colin

[flatrock]

The metal detectors and searches will disarm the lawbreakers, and the ninja in the Goofy suit will neutralize the criminal masterminds that get through anyway.

If a group of people want to commit mass murder at Disney and are willing to invest some time planning, I doubt they'd have trouble bypassing the metal detectors. They're just another line of defense against stupid criminals, and otherwise law abiding people.

True security costs a lot in time and money. It also makes for bad customer, vendor, and contractor relations. They'll very likely do enough to disarm their customers, but if terrorists decide to kill a lot of people at Disney I don't have a lot of faith that Disney is up to the task of catching them.

[PaladinVC]

Flatrock, if hardcore terrorists decide to go to war with the patrons of Walt Disney World, I doubt that a Glock 26 will be enough to prevent them from doing so. Even in the unlikely event that the attack takes a form that you can shoot at (people with small arms as opposed to a truck full of explosives or a crashing airplane or a few vials of Sarin), there is almost no chance that I and my H&K can make a meaningful contribution to the fight.

For one thing, if they've got the planning, training and evil intent to killa bunch of children in the most magical place on Earth, a CCW is no match for them. If there are multiple CCWs, they won't have any organization at all, and there's a good chance that they will just shoot anyone with a gun, including each other. It would be absolute chaos.

It's careless and narrow-minded to think that anyone with a CCW in Florida will have the training, mindset and skill-at-arms to repel an armed and determined attack by trained soldiers or terrorists. Maybe you have the hardware and capability to do it, but just having a CCW isn't enough to guarantee the safety of yourself and the other patrons. Disney is looking for the greatest net safety (not to be confused with a safety net), and if taking guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens inside the park achieves that, then they are well within the bounds of reason to do so.

Having firearms with which to resist oppression is a constitutional right. Carrying firearms when you drive down to the store or walk your dog is an act of prudence, a safeguard against danger. If, in the final analysis, greater safety can be had by NOT carrying a gun, then it becomes prudent to leave it at home. Disney has reached the conclusion that the general armed populace cannot be trusted to safely and reliably neutralize armed and organized terrorist cells. Can you blame them? Disney takes responsibility for keeping casual criminals from bringing their pistols into the park. If you can't trust them to do that, then feel free to avoid that dangerous area. Part of the sacial contract is sacrificing a little bit of your sovereignty now and again. You are free to carry a gun and you are free to go to Disney World, but you can't do both at the same time.

[Diggler]

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Disney doesn't care about YOUR safety. They care about their image.

[Blue Line]

Just wanted to let you know the family just got back from 4 expensive days at Disney and no metal detectors in sight. There were bag searches but I thought they were rather lame. If you didn't have a bag you could walk right through the gate. One interesting point although someone else may have brought it up was the use of biometrics there. When you run your pass thru the scanner you have to put your index and middle finger into a biometrics scanner I guess for you finger print. Each subsequent time you use the pass it compares the fingerprint. Big brother again?

[yy]

Just in case this point hasn't been raised:


It makes sense, if you consider Disney's clients. The management want European and Asian tourists. So presumably the target audience is used to gun-confiscation, enjoys higher euro-to-dollar conversion, and feels comfortable with disarmament.

Some might even praise disney for creating a safe enviroment.


Now I think metal detectors make sense. Now that disney is assuming full responsibility of everyone's well being...

(note to self, dump disney stock before the libility suits hit the papers...)