R-P Brass in 38 Spl.


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kcofohio
January 4, 2015, 05:29 PM
I recently bought some CFE Pistol and am working on lead bullet loads for testing. Since it is testing, in 38 Spl., I used some mixed brass. CBC, R-P, S&B, and WCC. The bullets were Missouri's 125 gr. 12 BHN.

On the 2nd firing, in the 3rd round, the cylinder wouldn't rotate. First thoughts was either high primer or I short stroked the trigger. After a bit of looking things over, I saw powder on the crane. I had a bullet jump the crimp. Then 2, then 3.

I thought I had a good crimp on the bullets. Got home and went ahead and increased the crimp and reloaded the ones I did shoot. Plus the ones that the bullet pulled out.

That is when I noticed the Remington brass, after resizing, would move the Lee Pro disk with charge bar, a lot less than the other brass. And barely any neck tension. I even removed the deprimer and resized again with the same results. Usually this happens when the brass is cracked at the mouth. And all the brass is within .010" in length of each other.

I have used Remington brass in several other calibers. This is a first.

Has anyone else seen this before?

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Walkalong
January 4, 2015, 05:36 PM
Remington brass tends to be thinner than other brands. Not good or bad by its self. Some people prefer it. But, you need a tight enough sizer to get adequate neck tension with some bullets.

MutinousDoug
January 4, 2015, 05:45 PM
When I used to shoot Bullseye in the 80s and 90s, I mixed any brass in my practice 45ACP loads and never noticed a difference in group size or placement. Except for R-P brass. There is a limit to how much you can crimp ACP rounds because they headspace on the case mouth. With (most) R-P brass, I could push lead, semi-wadcutter bullets into the case by hand adter crimping. All my brass is sized on RCBS carbide dies and I use Win, Fed, Starline, IMI, Blazer, CCI, PMC, you name it, without problem. Either the R-P brass is thin at the mouth or there is a lot of spring-back after sizing.
I give scavenged R-P brass to anyone who will take it.

kcofohio
January 4, 2015, 05:55 PM
Walkalong, is that across most/all of their calibers of brass?

I have loaded R-P in 9 & 45, never noticed it before. Maybe those dies are tighter?! Fortunately, I only have a few of them in 38. They'll go into the bad brass jug.

Thanks!

Walkalong
January 4, 2015, 06:02 PM
The RP .45 ACP brass was where I first had an issue. RCBS sent me a tighter sizer.

Kp321
January 4, 2015, 06:08 PM
I have had the same experience with RP brass and RCBS carbide dies. Worse on nickel plated than plain brass. I saved the RP brass for use with .452 lead bullets. No problems there with the extra .001". The RP brass is thinner than other brands but the die also seems to be a little loose. I have since swapped to Dillon dies and have had no further problems.

Jim Watson
January 4, 2015, 06:14 PM
My early experience with RP cases was not good.
Plated .38 Special tended to crack at the mouth in 3-4 loadings.
.45 ACP was thin and would not give good bullet pull.

I have not had problems with recent production, but as Kp says, my Dillon .45 die may be tighter than the RCBS and I don't accumulate many plated cases.

Rule3
January 4, 2015, 06:56 PM
That is when I noticed the Remington brass, after resizing, would move the Lee Pro disk with charge bar, a lot less than the other brass. ?

I do not follow/understand the above ??

What does the Pro disk charge bar have to do with anything? After rezing, the powder through die is what flares the brass and drops the powder either by charge bar or disk. If it does not move completely to cover the drop hole you would have no powder or squib. This would not effect you bullet crimp unless it is set so much that it is over flaring,

When it goes to the seating die is when it will seat and crimp if you have it set to crimp or then go on the the FCD.

Just size a piece of brass and before flaring see if a bullet will start before you use the powder/flair die

For a 38 Special to jump a crimp on a lead bullet, how much crimp are you using and what kind of load??

I have Rem brass that has been load untold amount of times.

kcofohio
January 4, 2015, 07:08 PM
Rule3, the powder-through-die had less resistance with the R-P brass. So the Pro Auto Disk didn't slide in as far to drop the powder.

OYE
January 4, 2015, 07:18 PM
For a 38 Special to jump a crimp on a lead bullet, how much crimp are you using and what kind of load??

That certainly makes sense. I haven't seen any recalls on Remington brass. Has there been any and when ? Would like to hear of it as we prefer it in all calibers(with Star being about it's equal in pistol calibers). We have always kept careful brass usage records to back that up as well. Takes the guesswork out of it. OYE

joneb
January 4, 2015, 07:50 PM
For 38spl I use R-P brass with cast .358-.3585" diameter bullets and RCBS dies with good results.

kcofohio
January 4, 2015, 08:12 PM
The load is CFE Pistol 6.0 gr. at 1.445" with MBC Cowboy #2 125 gr.

It had to do with neck tension, or lack of.

As for the crimp. The crimp folded into the depth of the crimp groove.

I don't remember how I came into these casings. So, I have no idea when Remington made these. As I stated in the OP, CBC, S&B, and WCC casings were also loaded in the same process.

Rule3
January 4, 2015, 08:24 PM
Rule3, the powder-through-die had less resistance with the R-P brass. So the Pro Auto Disk didn't slide in as far to drop the powder.

I have been using one for many years in about every handgun and 4 rifle calibers. The powder through die will effect your flair it has nothing to do with neck tension or crimp.

Now if you are implying that there is less resistance are you saying that the brass is so weak or pliable that this is what then causes less neck tension or a crimp not holding? Sure would have to be very very weak brass.

A picture of the crimp would be helpful. Just can not grasp how a certain piece of brass or two could be that weak and not be cracked, But not being there and seeing it just a guess.

mboe794
January 4, 2015, 08:29 PM
I dont know, but RP brass works fine for me in 38 special?? In fact it is one of my preferred brands in most calibers. I have shot many +P loaded XTPs in RP brass through an airwieght Jframe. I never noticed an issue. I use Lee dies in 38.

CrackedBrass45
January 4, 2015, 08:48 PM
Mboe794 and I share the exact same results. Xtp's, dies everything.

kcofohio
January 4, 2015, 08:51 PM
Rule3, I understand about the neck tension, which is created by the resizing die, that the powder-through die only is adjusted for bell mouthing.

The through die had less resistance from the Remington brass and slipped further into the casing. Therefore, the powder hopper slide didn't travel the normal distance.

Here is a picture. The cartridge on the left is R-P, and on the right is W-W.

Sky King
January 4, 2015, 08:53 PM
I have the same problem with R-P brass. Not enough neck tension. Since I reload for .380acp, I tried that sizing die. Works perfectly. So now I use the .380acp die whenever I reload R-P brass.

OYE
January 4, 2015, 09:33 PM
I never noticed an issue. I use Lee dies in 38.

Mboe794 and I share the exact same results. Xtp's, dies everything.


Same here. What a coincidence !!!!!!


It had to do with neck tension, or lack of.


If you feel this is a RP brass issue, you owe it to other reloaders to report the problem to Remington ASAP. It's definitely a safety issue. OYE

gamestalker
January 4, 2015, 09:43 PM
I've actually run into this more than once, and it was almost always R.P. brass, thin stuff. Not all of it is that thin though, just now and then I come across some excessively thin one's. But I can always detect when I'm resizing an R.P. case, they don't produce as much resistance.

GS

kcofohio
January 4, 2015, 09:53 PM
Same here. What a coincidence !!!!!!




If you feel this is a RP brass issue, you owe it to other reloaders to report the problem to Remington ASAP. It's definitely a safety issue. OYE
As I stated earlier, I have no idea how I came into this brass. What lot # could I offer Remington. It could be from last year, or 10 years ago.

People, this thread was not to attack Remington. As I stated before, I have used 9s and 45s in R-P with good results. It was something I had never ran into before and was wanting input. And that I got. :)

OYE
January 5, 2015, 12:25 AM
Well since gamestalker is having similar problems with RP brass, and it's issues with bullets pulling due to recoil in a 38 special, it certainly does bring up safety issues. I didn't detect anyone bashing RP brass. Anyway I may take it upon myself to report it to Remington.

So let me get the facts straight.

1. Running into what appears to be extremely weak RP 38 special brass that will not hold enough tension on a bullet when properly crimped. The bullets vibrate out of the case and jam the revolver cylinder.

2. Purchase date and price is unknown.

3. Approximate age of brass is unknown.

4. Number of times brass has been fired is unknown.

5. Brass is of unknown origin.

This should be enough to get their attention and possibly initiate a recall, but if there is anything else, please let me know. OYE


PS: If they ask why it's being used at all, what should I tell them ?
I wonder what they'll say when I hang up ?

ArchAngelCD
January 5, 2015, 12:34 AM
Rule3, I understand about the neck tension, which is created by the resizing die, that the powder-through die only is adjusted for bell mouthing.

The through die had less resistance from the Remington brass and slipped further into the casing. Therefore, the powder hopper slide didn't travel the normal distance.

Here is a picture. The cartridge on the left is R-P, and on the right is W-W.
In that picture the Rem case has a much heavier crimp than the Win case. IMO it's too much crimp and sometimes too much crimp will case poor neck tension.

gamestalker
January 5, 2015, 01:11 AM
I've had problems with their 38 spcl, .357, and 9mm brass being too thin. It's not like a constant occurrence, just something that happens from time to time, and it seems to be R.P. brass most, if not, every time.

It doesn't really ever cause me any great inconvenience or risk of a mishap, cause I can always tell before I even prime the brass, if it has inadequate neck tension. Either the sizing die or the powder / expander die will expose the problem for me early on. At that point I take a corresponding jacketed bullet, and I try to shove it in the case mouth by hand, if I can get it into the case mouth at all, that brass gets set aside to be measured.

And hey, I have no idea how many times the offending brass has been loaded, how old it is, or it's origin. About the only history I can provide, is that I load nothing but full tilt jacketed stuff. And that I use a firm roll crimp on all my wheel gun loads, and zero taper crimp on the AL rimless brass.

GS

Reefinmike
January 5, 2015, 01:43 AM
I have been using one for many years in about every handgun and 4 rifle calibers. The powder through die will effect your flair it has nothing to do with neck tension or crimp.

Now if you are implying that there is less resistance are you saying that the brass is so weak or pliable that this is what then causes less neck tension or a crimp not holding? Sure would have to be very very weak brass.

A picture of the crimp would be helpful. Just can not grasp how a certain piece of brass or two could be that weak and not be cracked, But not being there and seeing it just a guess.
in my experience the last 10k rounds of 38 using my autodisk, Thin brass, short brass, and brass with cracked necks(very apparent on the press) all contact the expander further up, resulting in less disk travel. Long or thick brass(dated WCC headstamp 38 brass comes to mind) tends to throw the powder measure much further as it it contacts the expander lower down.

Side note- it is also important to periodically break down and clean your auto disk to reduce resistance of the parts. Over time you will gradually need to adjust the die deeper to get the disk to travel 100%. as you do this, you will get more case belling. Long story short, the less resistance in travel that the disk has, the lower the "weight" on the case mouth/expander which leads to less case belling. Cleaning your powder drop tubes can help, but where I found the main source of the problem was grime that built up in between the auto disk thrower arm and the body of the measure. tweaking the spring tension screw that joins them may also tweak the disk travel.

OYE
January 5, 2015, 01:43 AM
I've had problems with their 38 spcl, .357, and 9mm brass being too thin. It's not like a constant occurrence, just something that happens from time to time, and it seems to be R.P. brass most, if not, every time.

It doesn't really ever cause me any great inconvenience or risk of a mishap, cause I can always tell before I even prime the brass, if it has inadequate neck tension. Either the sizing die or the powder / expander die will expose the problem for me early on. At that point I take a corresponding jacketed bullet, and I try to shove it in the case mouth by hand, if I can get it into the case mouth at all, that brass gets set aside to be measured.

And hey, I have no idea how many times the offending brass has been loaded, how old it is, or it's origin. About the only history I can provide, is that I load nothing but full tilt jacketed stuff. And that I use a firm roll crimp on all my wheel gun loads, and zero taper crimp on the AL rimless brass.


Got it. Good stuff ! We'll pass that along to Remington. Anybody else ?

OYE

joneb
January 5, 2015, 01:45 AM
I have the same problem with R-P brass. Not enough neck tension. Since I reload for .380acp, I tried that sizing die. Works perfectly. So now I use the .380acp die whenever I reload R-P brass.
I recently acquired a 380 acp and then a die set. Thanks for the tip:)

ljnowell
January 5, 2015, 06:13 AM
I absolutely love to use R-P brass to load my bullseye loads in. It's thin, easy to size, easy to prime.

The downside? While I get so many reloads out of WIN brass it's not even funny I'm lucky to get 10 out of most R-P and that's with me not even roll crimping them.

Fite Man
January 5, 2015, 10:27 AM
I too have experienced problems with Remington brass in 38 special, most recently when I began loading up 1,000 pieces of mixed brass that I bought. Using Lee dies, I began loading plated 158 gr bullets. All of the other brass (this was truly a variety bag!) loaded fine and had good tension. The R-P brass produced finished rounds where I could easily push the bullet into the case by hand after loaded. I'm ASSuming they would work forward when being shot no?

Unfortunately this 1,000 mixed brass has probably several hundred R-P pieces. So what to do with them?

It seems like a .380 sizing die might be the solution…but in the meantime would messing with the sizing and/or crimp setting be productive? Crimp is being applied with the bullet seating die.

Rule3
January 5, 2015, 10:31 AM
Rule3, I understand about the neck tension, which is created by the resizing die, that the powder-through die only is adjusted for bell mouthing.

The through die had less resistance from the Remington brass and slipped further into the casing. Therefore, the powder hopper slide didn't travel the normal distance.

Here is a picture. The cartridge on the left is R-P, and on the right is W-W.

The powder through dies/ flaring dies insert depth is determined by adjustment of the entire die body, Which sets the amount of flare on the case. The actual case does not affect the die setting. Did you measure the RP brass length in relation to the other brands?

On a regular basis (with many calibers and headstamps)I drop the powder (which flairs the case mouth) take the case out dump the powder on the scale to check it. Then put the case back in and dump a another powder charge. So the case is already flared, What you are saying then is that these case would have less neck tension as they are already worked or opened up???

I still think it is something else. Could be just old worn out brass but again if the crimp is heavy enough.............:confused:

Blue68f100
January 5, 2015, 10:53 AM
I've run into same problems with RP brass in 45acp. I sort all of it out, ~1000 pcs. Need to trade if for some Fed or Win. I do shoot lead but prefer the heavier brass.

kcofohio
January 5, 2015, 04:42 PM
Well since gamestalker is having similar problems with RP brass, and it's issues with bullets pulling due to recoil in a 38 special, it certainly does bring up safety issues. I didn't detect anyone bashing RP brass. Anyway I may take it upon myself to report it to Remington.

So let me get the facts straight.

1. Running into what appears to be extremely weak RP 38 special brass that will not hold enough tension on a bullet when properly crimped. The bullets vibrate out of the case and jam the revolver cylinder.

2. Purchase date and price is unknown.

3. Approximate age of brass is unknown.

4. Number of times brass has been fired is unknown.

5. Brass is of unknown origin.

This should be enough to get their attention and possibly initiate a recall, but if there is anything else, please let me know. OYE


PS: If they ask why it's being used at all, what should I tell them ?
I wonder what they'll say when I hang up ?
OYE, 1-5, correct.

As for the use of their brass, target shooting. :)

kcofohio
January 5, 2015, 04:45 PM
In that picture the Rem case has a much heavier crimp than the Win case. IMO it's too much crimp and sometimes too much crimp will case poor neck tension.
ArchAngelCD, the R-P was an increase on second go around of trying to figure out if I was doing something wrong on the crimping.

kcofohio
January 5, 2015, 04:55 PM
Rule3, I thought I had posted it, but reading back, I didn't.

All the brass samplings measured within .010" of each other.

ArchAngelCD
January 5, 2015, 05:03 PM
I absolutely love to use R-P brass to load my bullseye loads in. It's thin, easy to size, easy to prime.

The downside? While I get so many reloads out of WIN brass it's not even funny I'm lucky to get 10 out of most R-P and that's with me not even roll crimping them.
Ya see now, my experience is the direct opposite. I have been loading the same 1,200 pieces of .38 Special Rem brass for over 9 years now and not a one has split or been taken out of service. I have no idea how many times they have been reloaded but I do shoot ~1,200 rounds a month about 9 months of the year. (somewhere ~ 80X reloads on that Rem brass) If I had known it would last that long I would have used the Win or Fed brass I now have in storage. lol

ArchAngelCD
January 5, 2015, 05:10 PM
I too have experienced problems with Remington brass in 38 special .....
The R-P brass produced finished rounds where I could easily push the bullet into the case by hand after loaded. I'm ASSuming they would work forward when being shot no?
In revolvers the bullets pull, not set-back like in semi-autos.

Bezoar
January 5, 2015, 05:16 PM
NOT to hijack the thread, but

does the thicker brass in winchester 38 special cases mean they really do use a a smaller diameter bullet in the white box 130 grain fmj then what remington uses in their bulk 130 grain fmj ammo?

ATLDave
January 5, 2015, 05:38 PM
FWIW, I've had the same issue with .45 R-P brass. Zero neck tension using standard expander.

ljnowell
January 6, 2015, 06:38 AM
I too have experienced problems with Remington brass in 38 special, most recently when I began loading up 1,000 pieces of mixed brass that I bought. Using Lee dies, I began loading plated 158 gr bullets. All of the other brass (this was truly a variety bag!) loaded fine and had good tension. The R-P brass produced finished rounds where I could easily push the bullet into the case by hand after loaded. I'm ASSuming they would work forward when being shot no?



Unfortunately this 1,000 mixed brass has probably several hundred R-P pieces. So what to do with them?



It seems like a .380 sizing die might be the solution…but in the meantime would messing with the sizing and/or crimp setting be productive? Crimp is being applied with the bullet seating die.


If you ever get the time to count them up and want to trade them out I could do that. I've got tons of Winchester and a mix of everything else. Well, they are all mixed but I could fish out the Winchester for you if you want it.

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