[longrifleman]

I was watching the news this morning and something that has bothered me since the war in Iraq started just really hit a nerve. Most of the troops you see are wearing body armor with woodland cammo on top of their desert brown/tan BDUs. As a hunter, that kind of contrast makes target aquision VERY easy. I know that the armor in inventory was designed for europe but why hasn't something been done about the color.

There is this stuff called paint...... Is there concern that the paint will degrade the kelvar? How about a tee shirt in desert cammo on top of the armor? I realise the extra layer wouldn't be welcome in the heat but neither would a 7.62x39 round center of mass.

I hope someone can help me out. It really bugs me to see our troops put at risk because of bureaucratic stupidity. I hope that isn't the reason but I can't think of any other.

[spartacus2002]

THe kevlar vests have an outer covering similar to Cordura, like a backpack. Paint wouldn't do to well. Plus, NCOs and Officers would flip out over "destruction to govt property."

As for a Tshirt over it, the temps are damn high, and when you add the vest, the LBE, etc., you're close to maxing out the body temperature and provoking heatstroke.

Why no desert body armor? Probably for same reason they don't have enough body armor: $ and bureaucracy. And, as usual, the GI gets the short end of the stick.

Once again proving my point that there is nothing wrong with the Army that couldn't be fixed by (a) making prior enlisted service a requirement for becoming an officer, and (b) eliminating every rank above Captain :D

[fix]

When I was in, Desert pattern cammies and tan flightsuits were nowhere to be found. I suppose they were somewhere, but I never saw them. Now things seem to be shifting rapidly. Expect standard issue gear to start turning brown (as it already is happening) more and more. In the end, it's all about the benjamins. In an urban environment, function takes precendence over fashion. Camo is great, but the priorty is on protection. The money just isn't there to outfit everyone with the color of the month. Keep in mind that the general issue of body armor was nearly unheard of in the USMC as little as 10 years ago. Yes, Bush is getting our people better equipment. The widespread issue body armor proves it. Hell, as recently as 1999 CH46 crews were still using Vietnam era chicken plates that weighed in at around 50 lbs. Now they have an excellent dry vest that includes a cut away feature for one handed ditching and has the same level of protection as the old chicken suit.

[Chipperman]

"When I was in, Desert pattern cammies and tan flightsuits were nowhere to be found. I suppose they were somewhere, but I never saw them."

The guys stationed in Germany had them. :D

[Langenator]

Actually, in Gulf War I, VII Corps (home base: Germany) didn't get their desert uniforms until after the shooting ended. And VII Corps was so effective that the Iraqi Army came to fear the men in the green uniforms.

Another problem with using a brown shirt or cut-up DCU cloth to cover the woodland body armor: with the new Interceptor Body Armor (IBA), the pouches that hold extra magazines, grenades, first aid kits, canteens, etc, strap directy onto loops on the body armor. Cover those up, and you can't attach all that extremely useful stuff. Of course, the pouches are all woodland camo as well.

Of course, after a couple weeks in the sandbox, all your stuff starts turning tan/brown anyway. Just look at any soldier coming out of the field at Ft Irwin.

[Nightcrawler]

Just look at any soldier coming out of the field at Ft Irwin.

Fort Irwin hell. Go tool around on the tank trails at Camp Grayling and see if you don't turn brown.

We had a humvee that looked like it was painted desert camo. It wasn't; it was just dirty from that talcom-powder like dust at Grayling. It gets into EVERYTHING. UGH.

I daresay that's one part of the Guards I won't miss when I get out. LOL :D

[Mizzoutiger]

I think it would make a negligible difference anyways. The intention of the BDU patterns is not necessarily to blend in with the background, rather to break up the human figure as seen by the eye. I'll give you... woodland green would stand out in closer proximity, but at further distances it would be almost as effective as desert patterns. Especially when covered with that fine dust.

[longrifleman]

I thought about getting the vest as dirty as possible as quick as possible to blend in myself. My real concern was with the Pentagon sending our kids out with big green targets on their backs. I would still rather have a green vest rather than none at all.

It still bugs me that something so simple was ignored by the commanders in the field, if it was. All I have to go on is what I see on the news and we all know how accurate that is. (sarcasm on)They wouldn't distort anything. They told me they wouldn't.(sarcasm off)

[cannonfa]

Personally I think the desert uniform has some flaws. The brown seems to draw the eye rather than confuse it. We need to buy some of that stuff the Marines are using.

Body armor is nice to have. But, I don't think most of the shots are aimed, so woodland vs desert isn't that big a deal.

[Langenator]

Interesting tidbit about BGs and aimed fire: talking to some recently returned (from A-stan) Rangers about 18 months or so ago, they said that one of the reasons that the Taliban types were such poor shots is that half of them needed glasses. Kind of hard to shoot accurately when you can't see that well.
Don't know how much of a problem that is (for the BGs) in Iraq, but I haven't seen too many people in the TV shots wearing glasses.

[ARGarrison]

Langenator,

Never crossed my mind. I guess I just take somethings for granet(spelling). Always figured poor firearm skills come from poor or no training, due to poor instructors or lack of resorces, like ammo.

[Lennyjoe]

We had 2 guys go over to the "Stan" and when they were getting ready to go they were told that they would not get body armor when they got over there.

Guess it was in short supply.

So we purchased them Level III vests from Galls prior to departure.

[MarkDido]

I think we need "Iraq Urban Camoflage"

Like BDU's with graffetti and the front of of a 68 Chevy printed on it

:D Mark

[tcsd1236]

As has been mentioned, the Army is toying with the idea of going to a pattern that blends the woodland and sand patterns. One pattern ionstead of two. Of course, they make this decision as soon as we FINALLY get everything looking sort of uniform in WC and phasing out the last of the OD green stuff........ oh well

[Abominable No-Man]

There used to be a desert pattern flak jacket cover for the older-style (non-
interceptor) vests. Cotton cover with velcro attachments.

ANM

[RKCheung]

We went through a lot of trouble to get everyone desert tri-color cammies per CENTCOM uniform guidelines, but once the war started, everyone had to put on MOPP suits. Guess what color those were? Yup, woodland. Those desert cammies sure did a lot of good then.

[Apple a Day]

Another little problem with spraypainting the units: $ gets spent making sure the uniforms won't stand out in the infrared spectrum. Something that might look normal under regular light to the naked eye might look like a mirrorball with an IR scope. Who wants to stand out like that to an Iraqi sniper armed with a Dragunov and a near-IR night scope?
How many night scopes do the Iraqis have, anyway? I wouldn't figure that many but IIRC the Dragonov's standard scope was near-IR. Anybody got an educated guess?

[ceetee]

they said that one of the reasons that the Taliban types were such poor shots is that half of them needed glasses. Kind of hard to shoot accurately when you can't see that well.



Death to the Opticians!

[The_Antibubba]

It's not just a lack of opticians. The Taliban were ultra-religious types, who's idea of heaven on earth was to to spend all day studying the Koran and the commentaries of the scholars. All that reading, especially indoors with poor light, tends to make a person nearsighted. Praise Allah :evil:

[rayra]

fix

...Keep in mind that the general issue of body armor was nearly unheard of in the USMC as little as 10 years ago. ? Not counting the kevlar vests I saw everywhere in '87? - 17yrs ago.


Langenator

...Of course, after a couple weeks in the sandbox, all your stuff starts turning tan/brown anyway. Just look at any soldier coming out of the field at Ft Irwin.
dingdingding.

[fix]

Not counting the kevlar vests I saw everywhere in '87? - 17yrs ago.

You can call that body armor if you want. I call it excess weight that is no more likely to stop a rifle round than a gore-tex jacket.

[ID_shooting]

Oh heck, When I was sationed in Korea all of our vehicles were woodland colored but the parts we would get were all desert colored, then when I PCS'd to Kansas, all of our vehilces were desert colored but all of the parts would be green?!?!?!

For some reason, the Army was never able to color coordinate very well.