[Airwolf]

:what: :cuss: :banghead: :scrutiny:

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=6957692&BRD=988&PAG=461&dept_id=141265&rfi=6

Man ticketed for having 'noisy' flag

By Norb Franz, Macomb Daily Staff Writer
February 06, 2003

Chesterfield Township resident Ray Saelens is dumbfounded that he received a ticket for having a "noisy" flag.

For Ray Saelens, the sight and sound of an American flag whipping in the wind has special meaning.

"To me, the noise of the flag is the voices of everyone who's died for this country," the 51-year-old Chesterfield Township resident said.

But that "noise" has resulted in a ticket charging him with violating a local noise ordinance, after a neighbor complained to police that the flag behind Saelens' home prevents him from sleeping.

Saelens, a self-employed mason, paid a company $4,000 to install a 50-foot flagpole behind his upscale home along Anchor Bay, following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

When next-door neighbor Mark Grucz complained about the noise of the 18- by 12-foot flag, township officers issued Saelens a warning. Saelens switched a year ago from a nylon flag to a polyester flag that supplier Rocket Enterprises told him "would not fly as well, but make less noise."

"Never in a million years did I think I would bother someone by flying a flag," he said.

Late Monday night, a police officer knocked at the door of his home on Pointe Lakeview street, and handed him the citation.

"He could hardly look me in the eye," Saelens said.
Chesterfield police spokesman Jim Gates said the flag dispute is unprecedented.

"This is one of a kind," he said. But Gates said the department had no choice but to issue the violation when someone complains about noise.

Basically, police served as the conduit for the matter to be settled in court.

"We don't have a dog in this fight. We're doing our clerical duty in this matter," Gates explained.

Grucz could not be reached for comment Wednesday.

But for Saelens, the neighborly dispute is particularly troubling with the United States on the brink of war, and after the death of the seven space shuttle Columbia astronauts last weekend.

Because flags can quickly become weathered, Saelens pays $637 a year for Rocket Enterprises to replace his flag every three months.

"I did not want a flag that would be tattered and ripped. If I'm going to commit to a flag ... I'm going to have a flag in good condition all the time," he said.

The case is expected to be reviewed by a township attorney. Expect Saelens to put up a patriotic fight.
"You're going to have to pry it out of my hands," he said.

[CZ-75]

Where?

[PATH]

Good question!:confused:

[BamBam]

For such a patriotic, flag-loving guy, you'd think he'd know that the flag is supposed to come down at night. If he showed the flag it's proper respect, it wouldn't be keeping people up at night.

[Airwolf]

Looks like Michigan. That's where the paper is based.

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=4008662&BRD=988&PAG=461&dept_id=141277&rfi=6

Macomb is north of Detroit.

[CZ-75]

If he showed the flag it's proper respect, it wouldn't be keeping people up at night.



Maybe he has it lighted. I think I'd fly a 4"x8" flag, but have several sodium arc lights on it for the benefit of my whiney commie neighbor. :D

I find it hard to believe that a flag could keep someone up at night, esp. in MI, where houses should be well insulated and, thereby, reasonably sound-proofed.



If this guy loses, and I were him, I'd buy a hammer and sickle jack and fly THAT from now on to make a point.

[Matthew Courtney]

Part of being a good American is being a good neighbor. I cannot tell which neighbor threw the first rock, but one might be hiding behind the flag. We need to respect both our neighbors and the flag. Flying the flag is sometimes allowed at night. Making noise that negativly impacts our neighbors lives until the wee hours seldom is. If one is too lazy to raise and lower the flag respectfully daily, he seems to be less than patriotic in his flying of it. Perhaps there is some disability which precludes this. If the defendent is a disabled vet, all bets are off.

[CZ-75]

It is okay if lighted, IIRC.


A flag being too noisy has to be the most hollow excuse I've heard.

I doubt that most masons are disabled. As to being a good neighbor, the guy said he bought a quieter flag.

[MitchSchaft]

For such a patriotic, flag-loving guy, you'd think he'd know that the flag is supposed to come down at night

Exactly what I thought!! I was going to ask if he knew it was supposed to come down at night.

[Drjones]

A flag.

Being noisy.

At "night."

Or anytime.

:rolleyes:

Give

me

a

__________

break.

:rolleyes:

[coonan357]

I say the guy should go out and buy a real Cord and cloth flag like what we flew when I worked for a marine company , You want to talk about snap and pop!!! we could hear it thru the noise of the diesels on the tug !! and yes you can fly a flag at night as long as it is well lit .

[Baba Louie]

Darn that wind anyway.

It's not the flag's fault. I'm sure that on a breezless day it makes hardly any noise at all.

Cause and effect.

Some peoples kids.

Adios

[jmbg29]

If a "noisy flag" maggot came into a court where I was the judge, he could expect to get clocked in the head with my gavel. Where in the:cuss: are these clowns coming from?:confused: :fire: :banghead: :fire:

For you patriots with the "supposed to take it down" thought, think again. The flag may remain up 24/7/365 provided that it remains lighted.:rolleyes:

[jimpeel]

He should inform these dunces that this is not "noise". It is the sound of freedom.

Unfortunately, too many people equate the sound of freedom with "noise" these days.

[Delmar]

Wished I had the opportunity and the wherewithall to buy the house on the other side of this whiner, and put one up just like his neighbor just so the son of a biscuit can hear it in stereo!

[Mike Irwin]

Happens every once in awhile, unfortunately.

Some years ago before I was on the board, a member of the HOA in my community proposed a ban on flags. Said they looked tacky. Given that there are a lot of military people in my community, it didn't go far at all.

[Betty]

Noisy flag?!

How about crickets chirping in the night?
Booming car stereos?
Loud dual exhaust pipes?
The neighbor's dog barking?
Airplanes flying over?
Car horns?

Sheesh. Noisy flag...

:rolleyes:

I have an enormous American flag in my front window. We're "not supposed" to have anything in our condo windows. I have yet to have anyone ask me to remove it.

[Drjones]

I have an enormous American flag in my front window. We're "not supposed" to have anything in our condo windows. I have yet to have anyone ask me to remove it.

I've seen pics of some of your guns....

I'd HATE to be the idjit who dared ask YOU to take down your FLAG!!! :what:

[TallPine]

Noisy flag ...? In Michigan ...?

Geez, the guy should come out to Montana where the wind blows.

Sometimes I have to take mine down just to keep it from self destructing.

[Mike Irwin]

"How about crickets chirping in the night?"

I'm not 100% certain, but I think a homeowner DID try to sue his association in either Virginia or Maryland about 15 years ago on this very subject.

Wanted the entire community pesticided to kill the cricketts.

[Navy joe]

I've got it friends, the solution is simple. We will just ban the wind!...

[Agent Z]

We are assuming alot here. Nothing in said article states that the offending flag wasn't being flown during the day. We are assuming the neighbor was asleep at night. But it doesn't really matter. Maybe it was a bit loud. We aren't there. We don't know how it made the neighbor feel. Not that I'm siding for him one bit.
We are all doing alot of assumption here.

But to solved the problem is really quite simple. To muffle the snap of a flag all one needs to do is add a 15 inche piece of heavy rope to each outside corner of the flag. That would please the offended neighbor.

Now to appease the proud red, white and blue flag bearer. No doubt he is displaying the flag correctly at night time. Change your lighting. What ever it is take out the old lighting and put in three or four (4th for effect) 5,000 watt sodium arc lights on it and display that flag proudly. This will not sit well with the neighbor one bit. Now he has to wear sun glasses at night and calling the police won't do a bit of good. :cool: No laws against bright lights. :neener:



To have avoided this stupid scene I'm sure the neighbor would have faired better if he would have talked with the flag bearer instead of going about it the bleeding heart liberal way.

[BamBam]

I like to fire up my hot rod at 3:00 AM. It has open headers and sounds really bitchin'!

My commie neighbor had the gaul to complain! I could understand, but my car is AMERICAN and has an AMERICAN-MADE 454 engine!

I can run it all day long without complaint but I think this pinko has some nerve to expect his sleep to get in the way of my patriotism!

[Art Eatman]

I know one part of flag-flying noise that could drive a crazy man sane: The metal snaps that hold the flag to the rope. (Remember, for a sizable flag, these aren't little-bitty gizmos.)

Those snaps can clank against a flag pole in a rhythm and be loud enough to give you a serious case of the irate!

I'd have to know a lot more than that article is telling before I could choose sides in a deal like this. The issue is not about the U.S. flag. It's about disturbing somebody's sleep.

Sleep deprivation is a Bad Thing. It can make you shoot at neighbors that are all eat up with the terminal doofus--and miss.

Art

[The Mayor]

I saw the house on TV, it looked like the houses were about 12 feet apart and on 50 foot wide lots. The flag seemed out of proportion with the front yard at 12 by 18 feet.

[DeltaElite]

"Delta, write that man a ticket for a noisy flag", said the Sarge.

"Not a chance in Hell Sarge", said Delta. "You can all KMA."

The above is purely fictitious, but does accurately portray what my response would be. :D

[Brad Johnson]

You know, it's amazing what you can find on the Yahoo People Search Page (http://people.yahoo.com/).

Brad

[bbrins]

I was hoping to find an official U.S. government site for this, but this is close enough. Flag etiquette (http://www.usscouts.org/flag/flagcode.html)


It is the universal custom to display the flag only from sunrise to sunset on buildings and on stationary flagstaffs in the open. However, when a patriotic effect is desired, the flag may be displayed 24 hours a day if properly illuminated during the hours of darkness.