80% Arms "Easy Jig"


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pdsmith505
March 31, 2015, 11:38 PM
Just got done with an AR-15 lower using 80% Arms' "Easy Jig" that uses a router to mill out the fire control group.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t31.0-8/11072197_10104850583778158_762755229459569252_o.jpg

https://scontent-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/13025_10104862071297078_6941607584445036070_n.jpg?oh=18cbe9b04fa1a0438f90120686ae72f1&oe=55B4E3CDhttps://scontent-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/11081455_10104862071406858_5835066901596967248_n.jpg?oh=b0d2f19df8fae23ccb858e7d07283f1b&oe=55A4EA21

https://scontent-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/17306_10104862392673038_1946611138989368302_n.jpg?oh=7a736ab455c3e95227298981d260256f&oe=557251BF

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t31.0-8/11101406_10104862594039498_6559061061482414370_o.jpg

Overall, the jig worked great. Considering that you are using a trim router and an really long 1/4" end mill to carve it out, the walls were pretty smooth. Only issue I ran into is that the router can get away from you pretty easy making the final depth cut since, at that point, you no longer have drill holes to start in and have to manually plunge the end mill into the material. My next one will be much better.

Also: Buy extra drill bits. The ones that ship in the tool kit were less than stellar. If it wasn't for the drill stop collar for the 3/8" bit, I'd say skip the tool kit and just buy the end mill from them. YMMV

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pdsmith505
March 31, 2015, 11:39 PM
Mods: Totally forgot about the gunsmithing section.

Would one of you please move it there?

savanahsdad
April 1, 2015, 01:30 AM
huumm,, is that done ? that looks like a complete lower with no Ser# :confused:, I thought you had to have a Ser # number on that before you drilled the pin holes

Arizona_Mike
April 1, 2015, 02:33 AM
huumm,, is that done ? that looks like a complete lower with no Ser# :confused:, I thought you had to have a Ser # number on that before you drilled the pin holes
There is no requirement for a non-licensee to put a serial number on a self-built Title I firearm. It is only required if he is making a Title II (NFA) firearm.

I believe there is a letter out there saying you must mark it Name/Town/State/Model(optional)/Unique identifier prior to transferring but the statutory basis of this is suspect (and what about inheritance?).

Mike

Crowcifier666
April 1, 2015, 06:36 AM
I hope you registered it, too......:evil:

pdsmith505
April 1, 2015, 06:48 AM
Mike is correct. Your state laws may vary, however.

Robert
April 1, 2015, 11:08 AM
I use the same jig and it is very handy. The finished result, while not as smooth and perfect as a CNC produced lower is more than serviceable. Now to get mine coated...

pdsmith505
April 1, 2015, 01:37 PM
Robert:

Did you have any issues milling the final step of the fire control pocket? As mentioned above, the router got away from me on that step and gouged the hell out of the walls.

Any tips for the next one I do? I've got some ideas, but would like to hear how it went for you.

Brass2grass
April 9, 2015, 04:06 PM
As directed by the ATF, There's no requirement to serialize an 80% lower. However, you can opt to put one on it to help identify it if it is ever stolen. 80% builds are also non transferable (P2P).

pdsmith505
April 11, 2015, 11:35 PM
What federal law forbids you from, if you decided in the future that you no longer wanted the rifle, selling it to another person?

Personally, I know of no such law.

Brass2grass
April 12, 2015, 12:49 AM
The reason they are non transferable is because they are not serialized or marked in any way. If you were to transfer it you would have to fill out ATF form 7 5310.12 application for an FFL and pay the tax to register the receiver as a firearm. Only FFL licensees may register firearms.

pdsmith505
April 12, 2015, 01:25 AM
From the ATF: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html

Q: Is it legal to assemble a firearm from commercially available parts kits that can be purchased via internet or shotgun news?
...
Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future.

Rule of thumb being that it's OK to build a gun for yourself as a non-licensee and sell it later if you decide to, but it's NOT OK to build the gun with the intent of selling it as a non-licensee. However, the firearm should be marked if you do sell it. Your local laws may vary.

Brass2grass
April 12, 2015, 02:05 AM
Yes and if you do so decide, it has to be registered. You can't name your weapon XYZ then just sell it since company XYZ doesn't exist in a DROS.

pdsmith505
April 12, 2015, 10:34 AM
In CA, that may be true. However, in most states firearms need not be registered at all.

Brass2grass
April 12, 2015, 01:21 PM
Pistols and AR lowers are registered in every state. Long guns and shot guns are the only exception.

Hacker15E
April 12, 2015, 01:31 PM
Pistols and AR lowers are registered in every state. Long guns and shot guns are the only exception.

Uh, what?

No...pistols are most certainly not registered in every state.

Hacker15E
April 12, 2015, 01:33 PM
BTW, the operative word in the paragraph from the ATF is "should".

It is notable because it has a different meaning than "shall", "will", or "must".

Brass2grass
April 12, 2015, 02:35 PM
Uh, what?



No...pistols are most certainly not registered in every state.


Although there are technically no federal laws requiring the registration of most guns, (some) state laws require the registration of some or all firearms except in the case of nfa firearms, which have to be registered. Out of state buyers require an FFL transfer while residents may exchange in P2P.

Any time you buy from an FFL, which EVERY gun is at some point, you are required to fill out form 4473. While it's not a registration Per se, it is a record of transfer in your name.

Hacker15E
April 12, 2015, 09:53 PM
Although there are technically no federal laws requiring the registration of most guns, (some) state laws require the registration of some or all firearms except in the case of nfa firearms, which have to be registered. Out of state buyers require an FFL transfer while residents may exchange in P2P.

Any time you buy from an FFL, which EVERY gun is at some point, you are required to fill out form 4473. While it's not a registration Per se, it is a record of transfer in your name.

Interesting attempt at clarification, but no, your original statement that, "Pistols and AR lowers are registered in every state. Long guns and shot guns are the only exception" is still entirely false. If you are a CALGUNS member, you'll recognize the term "FUD", and it unfortunately applies to your assertion.

How many different states besides CA have you resided in where handguns had to be registered?

I have lived in 8 other states besides California, and CA is the first and only one that required handgun registration.

4thPointOfContact
April 12, 2015, 10:32 PM
Pistols and AR lowers are registered in every state. Long guns and shot guns are the only exception.
Whoa, whoa, whoa... What's that quote from Tropic Thunder? Something about "pump your brakes, kid"?
Pistols are not registered in Georgia, nor are AR (or any other lower.)

Brass2grass
April 13, 2015, 12:05 AM
Oklahoma, North Carolina and California. Every weapon is registered by its manufacturer when built. When you buy a pistol the FFL puts it in your name. How do you think firearms are traced per Leo?

BBBBill
April 13, 2015, 12:12 AM
The FFL keeps the record of transfer (bound book or digital for some folks now) in his possession. That is not registered.
Registered means that the gov't has it in their records that you possess the gun.

USAF_Vet
April 13, 2015, 04:54 AM
Sadly, Michigan still requires handgun registration (looking at you, Detroit) but there is a bill in the House doing away with it.

Still, strripped AR receivers are firearms, and if transferred via FFL transfer as firearms. No registration required. 80% blanks and the like do not require any form of registration. I'm about done with a Flat Spot AR-15 steel puzzle piece kit. Made from laser cut steel flat sheets and welded together. It will be for a rifle build, and will not ever be registered. It'll probably never even have so much as a personal manufacturer mark or serial number.

pdsmith, you got a link for that jig? I might try my hand at an 80%. This Flat Spot build has been fun, and I can never have too many ARs.

pdsmith505
April 13, 2015, 09:44 AM
http://www.80percentarms.com/

I'd like to do one of the flat spot ones you mentioned, but lack a welding machine.

USAF_Vet
April 13, 2015, 10:02 AM
Thanks for the link. Like I need another project :D

We just discussed the possibility of braising and/ or using JB Weld for a flat kit. my experience with JB is that it can be brittle, so I personally wouldn't trust it to hold the pieces together long term. I use it like Bondo to fill in the nooks and crannies where the welds have left gaps, but not for structural support.

sniper69
April 13, 2015, 10:29 AM
Pistols and AR lowers are registered in every state. Long guns and shot guns are the only exception.

Wrong, maybe in some states, but not every state. You might want to recheck your information.




pdsmith505 - -About the jig for the AR - thanks for the review. I had though of getting one of the jigs from Modulus, but heard the 80% arms jigs are nicer/more robust.

The Jack Squat flat's look interesting, I don't know if I would want to jb weld one though. There was another idea out there that one could do a screw together AR lower. A pdf with the prints can be found at http://www.weaponeer.net/forum/uploads/Weaponeer/files/2007-10-17_131429_AR_15_Scratch_Built_Receiver.pdf
Here is a pic (found online) of one.
http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/screw-together-lower.jpg

pdsmith505
April 14, 2015, 08:54 PM
Started on the second lower in this jig. A new, 1/2 hp drill press (first was done on a tiny 1/6th machine) has helped out a bunch. The little one did the job... but it was frustrating.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-0LDDKpmh28E/VSxHnKQJhGI/AAAAAAAAFlg/Tgyxb5DJ_6k/w1280-h720-no/20150413_184740.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-2j0INL9jYtU/VS2pDuL1USI/AAAAAAAAFmM/AtEs3e2_eLs/w500-h889-no/20150414_184506.jpg

One lesson learned from the first go-around was to stop guessing at "1/4 of a hash" as listed on the instructions. For each pass I'm advancing the cut by 1/16" as measured on the router.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-2P1PjRpmsps/VS2pG3OFTlI/AAAAAAAAFmk/ZOx09RKqGKI/w1280-h720-no/20150414_195547.jpg

The second lesson is to complete the entire pocket before moving on to a finishing cut. This way, if the router does get away from me, it will be less likely to gouge deep enough to affect the finished FCG pocket.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/UFsEPP0nW38edGfaF3qpTbM9LbsgAMuvD4AzZogh-Fg=w500-h889-no

I stopped for the night about 3/4 through the FCG pocket. Tomorrow, when I reach the point where the router has no drill hole to start in (final depth), I will stop, set up for the trigger hole, and drill again. This will give me a place to start the router without having to manually plunge into the lower. Since the walls will still be rough cut, any tolerance error from swapping plates shouldn't matter.

Brass2grass
April 15, 2015, 09:44 AM
After the debate Over selling/registering/marking receivers, I shot an email to the ATF. Here is there response.

Thank you for your recent inquiry to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). This is in response to your email in which you inquired about making a firearm.

Firearms may be lawfully made by persons who do not hold a manufacturer's license under the GCA provided they are NOT FOR SALE OR DISTRIBUTION and the maker is NOT PROHIBITED from receiving or possessing firearms.

In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and advance approval by ATF. An application to make a machinegun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for the official use of a Federal, State or local government agency (18 U.S.C. 922(o),(r); 26 U.S.C. 5822; 27 CFR 478.39, 479.62, and 479.105). Please be certain that you adhere to the definition of "pistol" provided below to ensure that you are not making an NFA firearm, which would require registration and the tax stamp.

Additionally, although markings are not required on firearms manufactured for personal use (excluding NFA firearms), owners are recommended to conspicuously place or engrave a serial number and / or other marks of identification to aid in investigation or recovery by State or local law enforcement officials in the event of a theft or loss of the privately owned firearm.

There may be State laws that pertain to your questions. ATF has no jurisdiction over State laws. You need to contact your State's Attorney General's Office (a list of their offices is available online at www.naag.org) to inquire about firearms laws and possible restrictions in your State.

Should you have additional questions, please contact your local ATF office. A listing of ATF office phone numbers can be found at: http://www.atf.gov/content/contact-us/local-atf-office.

Regards,
David
Firearms Industry Programs Branch, ATF

sniper69
April 15, 2015, 10:26 AM
Brass2grass - so how does the ATF response correlate with what you had posted earlier?

Pistols and AR lowers are registered in every state. Long guns and shot guns are the only exception.

Also notice in the ATF response that markings aren't required but they recommend it to aid in investigation or recovery. So pistols and AR lowers aren't registered in every state. Whether one is making an AR or a pistol, marking it isn't required unless the state one lives in has a law that says otherwise. :)

Brass2grass
April 15, 2015, 10:39 AM
Brass2grass - so how does the ATF response correlate with what you had posted earlier?



Also notice in the ATF response that markings aren't required but they recommend it to aid in investigation or recovery. So pistols and AR lowers aren't registered in every state. Whether one is making an AR or a pistol, marking it isn't required unless the state one lives in has a law that says otherwise. :)


I never said markings were required unless registering a weapon. Then they have to be marked but in order to register you have to be a licensee. The email I sent them was in regards to whether or not you could sell an 80% lower once it has been completed. And if you could sell one, did it have to be registered. The short answer. No you can't sell them.

MachIVshooter
April 15, 2015, 10:47 AM
After the debate Over selling/registering/marking receivers, I shot an email to the ATF. Here is there response.

There is no debate, just you refusing to listen to people who were giving you the facts.

You could have saved the trouble of writing a letter by simply googling their FAQ on the matter:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/general.html#gca-manufacturing

#6

Furthermore, it is lawful to sell a home build in the same way you transfer any title I firearm. You simply cannot manufacture with the intent to sell/distribute without a license, the same way you cannot purchase complete firearms with the intent to resell without an FFL (note: this is not quite the same as buying with the intent to sell/trade if the value increases in time).

There is also no finite figure on how many personal weapons, home build or otherwise, that you may sell as an unlicensed individual; it really is a matter of being honest with yourself about what you're doing. If you buy a used gun and someone offers you well more than you paid the next day, it's a legitimate private sale. If you buy 20 Hi Points and resell them at a 30% profit in private sales, that is dealing without a license. Likewise, if you build an AR on an 80% receiver and later decide you don't like it anymore, you can sell it. But if you buy and complete a pile of 80% receivers and sell them privately as complete receivers, you are in violation of the law.

pdsmith505
April 15, 2015, 04:54 PM
After the debate Over selling/registering/marking receivers, I shot an email to the ATF. Here is there response.

Much like polls, your wife's clothing choices, and the answer to life the universe and everything, the question being asked is as, if not more, important than the answer.

I imagine you shot an email out asking, "Is it legal if sell a firearm I manufactured myself?" The similar, but significantly different, question is, "Is it legal if I build a firearm for my own personal use but later decide to sell it?"

Without knowing what question you specifically asked the ATF, the answer might as well be 42.

But, hey, whatever. I have yet to sell any gun, much less one of the ones I've made myself, and I don't plan on starting anytime soon.

pdsmith505
April 15, 2015, 05:12 PM
Alirghty, I'm gonna try to drag this train back on it's tracks and move on to futher analysis of the 80% Arms Easy Jig. Sorry for the large pictures.

I left off having gotten about 75% through milling the FCG pocket following my modified plan. Turns out that drilling the trigger hole prior to the final depth cut is a great idea.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-3IJhIAv1dJs/VS6Q0kCNuZI/AAAAAAAAFnU/Qr7IuUSHkXo/w1280-h720-no/20150415_122418.jpg

After finishing the FCG pocket, with much better success, I moved on to the rear take down pin pocket. Here's where things went awry, but not because of the jig. The locking mechanism on the collar of the router snapped! Turns out plastic wasn't a good choice. So I went off to Lowes to return/replace the dang thing. They didn't have any more of that model (DWE6000), but they did have the model better (DWP611). For $40 more you get:

1) Speed control. Holy god slowing down the end mill does wonders for the finish (as you'll see below). 16k RPM is still blazing fast for an end mill, but it's better than 31k RPM.

2) Metal construction instead of plastic.

If you go this way to do your 80% lowers, don't mess around with the cheaper model. Get the DWP611.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-etg1UYzgtWo/VS7Ey9gHEpI/AAAAAAAAFpk/VExXgG7JiLg/w523-h929-no/20150415_160611.jpg

The finish was SO much nicer in the take down pin area because of the better router that I went back to the FCG pocket and used the little bit of slack in the jig's tolerances to do a finish cut there too. Here is the result:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-sWSi1RSvJDE/VS7KoYcnKlI/AAAAAAAAFqY/9IZ3kB0NL5M/w1280-h720-no/20150415_163120.jpg

It's not a factory finish, but it's darn close. The hardest part of maintaining a good finish with the router is getting into the corners without it bouncing around. Considering that you are using a jig, drill press, and router to machine out a lower, I'd say it's perfect.

80% Arms Easy Jig - 9/10
DeWalt DWP611 Router - 9/10
DeWalt DWE6000 router - 3/10

Hacker15E
April 25, 2015, 05:12 AM
I never said markings were required unless registering a weapon. Then they have to be marked but in order to register you have to be a licensee. The email I sent them was in regards to whether or not you could sell an 80% lower once it has been completed. And if you could sell one, did it have to be registered. The short answer. No you can't sell them.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=9874465&postcount=12

Robert
April 25, 2015, 09:21 AM
PD, sorry for the late return, I somehow forgot that I had posted in here.

I found that taking more passes and removing less material per pass helped me avoid the router jumping around too much. Though I am using a Bosch router so it may be different for you. It takes longer but the end result is better.

pdsmith505
May 18, 2015, 07:17 PM
Final update on the second lower I did. Etched at home, professionally cerakoted, and color filled in select areas at home:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-yyJn2Rl7pWs/VVp0ebMS5MI/AAAAAAAAGE8/RIMLcdZDkFo/w1280-h720-no/20150518_191218.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-bqzTjILtFt0/VVp0bnIpe6I/AAAAAAAAGE0/l8eRdty3Izw/w1280-h720-no/20150518_191155.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-To6eOAER_L0/VVpxYiDz98I/AAAAAAAAGEE/i8Tma7pOxq4/w498-h885-no/20150518_191008.jpg

Not too shabby.

sniper69
July 9, 2015, 01:28 PM
I just picked up one of the 80% arms easy jigs. Would you still recommend the DWP611 router? Also any experience with a polymer lower in the jig (I noticed on one site I had read on showing the jig would work with both aluminum and polymer lowers).

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