How important are "fireproof" safes?

I'm in the market for a safe. I've noticed significant increases in price when going from a non fireproof safe to a fireproof one of similar dimensions. Is fireproofness an important criteria for you when shopping for safes? FWIW, my insurance policy will adequately pay for any losses that are incurred. I'm just interested in know if members think a fireproof safe is worth the extra cost. Thanks.

My understanding is that you are statistically much more likely to lose your guns in a fire than from theft. That being said, I'm not sure if the low end safes, which seem to advertise something in the neighborhood of 1200deg protection for 30 minutes are really adequate for most house fires. I've heard of people fireproofing their own by adding sheetrock panels to the inside of the safe and making certain the door has a good seal.

Most "fire safes" are not burglar resistant. They are two sheet metal boxes with insulating and fire proofing material lined between.

Most "burglar resistant" safes are not fire rated. They are designed to resist against brute force intrusion. They all do, to some degree or other. Obviously, a prepared wrecking crew with a plasma torch and such is going to get into any safe quicker than two big guys with hammers. That's why safes have different ratings.

Do yourself a favor: Go to a locksmith who deals in safes, or a safe company. Talk with the rep and get information on burglary ratings and fire ratings. Maybe even an internet search. This is not one of those "two sentence answer" questions.

I forgot... it's easier to fireproof a burlary safe than to burglar proof a fire safe. Essentially, one lines the safe with non-melting insulation material.

Voodoo I too am well insured, but I am in possession of several guns that I have inherited from my Father. One is a beautiful Marlin rifle that is about 100 years old and the other was my Grandpas WW2 service pistol. I would cry like a baby if were to loose either one of these guns to fire, or a burglary. That is why I have decided to purchase a fire proof safe.

I have been shopping around for a safe and should have enough to buy my first safe in a week or two. I was planning on buying a very nice safe that Sams Club has for $699, but I found a Cannon safe that is the same size and costs $60 less!! The nice thing about Cannon is they have a lifetime warranty with onsite repair. That means that if some BG knocks off the handles to your safe instead of you having to ship them your safe with all of your guns inside they will actually send someone to your house to open your safe as part of the warranty. If I didn’t have any guns with sentimental value I would skip the safe and invest in extra insurance, but with my current collection that isn't an option.

Good luck I hope you can decide what will work best for you.

I was just reading a one page summary of lessons learned from the fires here in San Diego County. Near the top of the list was the fact that most, if not all, the fire safes were cinders by before the fires were out.

That suggested to me that the safe is not something to skimp on.

Is it justified to be concerned about the heat treat of the firearms if the safe is involved in a fire? Are there any thermometers that will record the highest temperature in the safe that function up to several hundred degrees?

Kharn

Fire ratings are also cheated on to give you a false sense of security. Some places lay the safe down and test it - your safe isn't going to be laying down is it? And guess what, heat rises. False rating. There are other tricks too - I was told about them but can't remember them all.

I tend to go with a real good name brand safe company who tests them correctly. I was in one place that had a second-rate brand safe and the fire rating just didn't look right to me. I believe it was rated way too high, and I couldn't get out of there fast enough.

I wound up with a National Security MG-42 safe, with 18 1 1/2" bolts around the door and a fire rating of 1638 degrees for 45 minutes. It weighs 1100 pounds empty and should be very good at protecting my "stuff". :)

Voodoo & all;

I am a locksmith & I sell safes for a living. Please, don't just believe me on the following information. By all means, double check the info with your fire department & U.L. labaratories.

A typical fully involved structure fire (where the frame of the house burns) will hit 1600 to 2000 degrees f, or more. The salesman who tells you that 1200 for 30 mins is adequate because the average home fire is 1200 is just parroting what he's been told. That average fire includes the little grease fire in the kitchen, wastebasket fire, etc. ie the stuff you put out in less than a minute by yourself.

The full U.L. 1 hour fire rating is what's needed to survive a fully involved fire in professionally served fire dept area. That rating is: safe goes in test furnace, gas is lit, temp is brought up to 1750 f first, then timer starts for 1 hour every minute spent at 1750 f. At end of hour internal transponder is read & internal temp must be under 350 f. Then gas is turned off, & safe is left in furnace to cool to lab ambient. Internal temp is constantly monitered during cool down, checking for thermal soak-through. This simulates the burning structure collapsing on a safe that was, say, in the basement. At no point in the test cycle, can the internal temp exceed 350 f.

An RSC lined with sheet rock will not pass this test. Gypsum wall board is a good flame barrier, but DOES NOT have enough mass to prevent thermal soak-through. The U.L. 1 hour safes will usually weigh close to, or over twice as much, as a fire-rated RSC.

If you live in a volunteer served area, or an area with no fire dept. at all, you need to go to the U.L. 2 hour fire rated safe. I do not know of a U.L. rated safe that does not also provide very good burglary protection.

You will typically pay around $2,500.00 for a 1 hour fire, B burglary safe, and consider that a starting point.

RSC's are better than nothing, but don't think you've got protection. It's Dr. Feelgood all over again.

Got questions? PM me.

900F

IF your safe is in basement with non burnable stuff around it has a chance. I have thought I might put a 5gal plastic bucket of water on top. :) LOL IT gets hot and bucket melts/water runs over safe. :)
WHEN I get it moved to new location I may build around it with non burnable material.
BTW I advised a person who didn't have the $$$ for handgun safe to use a old (NON WORKING) wall oven as fire safe. The chicken coop lock was hid on other side and who would check the oven in mud room? $5 fire resistant safe. (I figure it was made to keep 475degrees INSIDE for hrs it should keep it cool if hot outside. :)

"An RSC lined with sheet rock will not pass this test."

What material does pass this test ?



I think this is one of those areas where you have to choose whether you are going to prepare for a worst case senario or you are going to hope the WCS doesn't happen.
Obviously the worst case senario would be that your house burns completely to the ground with no attempt made to fight the fire.
This is what happened during those ********** brush fires.
I can imagine only a couple senarios where a safe would be exposed to a temperature of 1750 degrees for an hour in a house fire. That simply wouldn't happen around here at least. There isn't enough fire load. If the house was fully involved and no one attempted to put it out, the fire would run out of fuel long before an hour passed.
"A typical fully involved structure fire (where the frame of the house burns) will hit 1600 to 2000 degrees f, or more."
Hit is the operative word here. It won't maintain that temperature for long unless there are some unusual fuel sources present. The reason is that those temperatures might be reached in a totally enclosed structure, but the fire will soon vent: the windows will break, the fire will burn through the roof or the walls, and of course water will be applied to the fire. Hell, flashover occurs at temperatures half of that.


I am no safe expert, I am a professional firefighter. I have been inside structure fires with termal imaging devices (http://www.scotthealthsafety.com/eagle160.htm ) that display the temperature of where the crosshairs are pointed. You can point the device at the floor and slowly raise the crosshairs to the ceiling and see the termperature change with the terminal layers. I have been inside a cinder block building with one room's contents fully involved. The fire gasses were venting up a stairwell. The fire gasses leaving the top of the door were less than 1000 degrees. Ask yourself this question: if a house fire was 2000 degrees, how could firefighters walk inside and fight the fire ?

All that being said, my next safe is going to be purchased with a worst case senario in mind. I am going to contact our resident safe expert here on The High Road:CB900F

Aren't UL ratings designed for worse case scenarios? So, if the fire doesn't get too hot, your safe should survive.

Still, I'm for the anti-burglary safe that is covered with fireboard on its exterior. It also serves as camouflage for the safe.

Fella's;

OK, lets put it another way. If your serious fire is in the same room as your 'fireproof' RSC, and after it's out you open the door and find the aluminum scope tubes are warped & the wood of your stocks is charred, or the plastic deformed, what did you save?

It's 1600 - 2000, OR MORE. Depending upon what fuel, draft, & other conditions, a fire can hot-spot well into the 2000's. No - no, nasty fire, you can't burn there, that's where my RSC is!! Yeah, right.

Packing ten thousand dollars worth of possessions into a $600 buck RSC doesn't make sense to me. However, different circumstances for different people - for all I know your wife has a serious shoe habit.

900F

I have to agree with CB900F that most RSC's are seriously deficient in the "fireproof" aspect (and BTW, friend, thanks for sharing your expertise with us. In this and other threads, you've been very helpful and informative, and I for one greatly appreciate it.)

However, the old bugbear of finances raises its ugly head... I wish I could afford a truly "fireproof" safe: but to buy even one of them would exceed two months' salary for me. I have had to accept that if I have a serious fire, I shall lose most of my guns to "heat soak".

My main purpose in buying a safe is very simple: I would feel morally responsible if I left firearms stored in such a way as to give a criminal easy access to them. I want to make it as hard as possible, within reason, for a "casual" burglar or snatch-and-grab artist to get hold of my weapons, and later use them against some other innocent person. My RSC's are bought for that reason. I know that any professional thief with the right equipment can be into them in five to ten minutes: but such thieves are few and far between in the average housebreaking. I've done the best I can, within my budget, to secure my weapons.

Fire protection is an added bonus, and my RSC's can offer only limited coverage here. I'll just have to hope that any fire happens while I'm at home to do something about it (and that I'm not asleep at the time!). That's why I have fire extinguishers in every room - commercial-size ones, not the dinky home size sold at Wal-Mart.

I think if your house burns down to the foundation you have bigger problems than the loss of several thousand dollars in firearms. Suppose the Firearms survive...are they safe to operate...are they cosmetically scarred...by the way your still going to have to replace that $3K safe thats been through the fire.

This is all great information, and has given me a lot to think about. Thanks, everyone!

Pull the shelving and first layer (probably particle board) out, you know, the stuff with the nice furry covering and add another layer of wall board in there. You will need to do some trimming but another line of protection can only enhance your safes performance in the event of a fire.

I personally would not ever go cheap on a safe.

Eyz, & all;

If your insurance isn't covering the replacement or repair of your safe, well, I'd certainly have a heart-to-heart discussion with my agent. Get that established up front with your agent. You should be getting a discount on your insurance rates with a fire safe. Now, don't be surprised if they ask you, "Does it pass U.L. fire rating?" And don't be surprised if they decline to lower your rates if it can't certify U.L. rated.

For those, like Preacherman, who either have an RSC or are constrained by finances from getting something other than a U.L. safe, there are some options. Don't bother putting another layer of sheetrock in your container. It's pretty much useless & you'll work far too hard for the return you get.

Put your RSC on a concrete floor. Build a form around it that puts 4" of concrete on the 3 sides other than the door. Put a frame across the front that won't interfere with opening the RSC door. Pour concrete & let set. Then pour the top. Now hang a fire door in the frame you just set.

You can spread this cost out over time. You can't move the safe. Measure twice, maybe even 3 times. Pour once. Seal edges real good. Make sure you can before you do. Measure again. If you rent the forms, plan on pouring all of it at once. Don't blame me if you find halfway through this project that you don't like doing it.

900F

not exactly the same topic really but,

IF one is building a home from the ground up, and has the option to "build what one dern well wants, or might find need for in the near to far future", IS there a good form of construction from which to build a "gun vault" from that will be burglar and fire resistant??

say maybe a cinder block/concrete walled vault that has a vault door and is built into the garage or basement (for those who live further above the water table than i do...)?


just curious.

On Feb 7 I had a grease fire in my house. I had a non fire proof American Sec Prod. safe that I paid $1000. for about 20 years ago. It was basically 1/4 inch plate. Theren was akerosene lamp on the top of the safe. The upper part of the safe warpped about 3/32 of an inch. The fire was out in about 25 min. The repair cost to my collection is in excess of 7K. Rust from moisture after the fire caused most of the damage.Most of the safes I have seen are of the 1200deg for30or 45 min including safes costing 3 to 4 K. I can't afford them so I'm "stuck w the 1200/45 type of safe. Any safe will help, buy the best you can afford.

Bob

Fella's;

Bob41081 makes a point that I didn't want to raise, because some don't or won't believe it. He states that: "Most of the safes I have seen are of the 1200deg for 30 or 45 min including safes costing 3 to 4 K."

Yes, it is perfectly possible to pay that much for a 'name' safe (RSC) & not get protection significantlly above that of a sub $1000.00 RSC. PRICE DOESN'T GUARANTEE QUALITY. Sad, but true. But it might say something like; Famous Slow Motorcycle Special Edition Safe.

For essentially the same kind of money, $3050.00 in this case, I have a maroon, with gold accents, 1 hour fire & B burglary rate safe on the floor. It is equipped with a LaGard electronic keypad dial, has 24 slots in a double open E-Z out configuration. It's 60" h x 32" W x 22" D, weighs about 1300 lbs. In point of fact, you really don't want to buy this safe from me. I'm using it as an example of what is available at what price. The extra shipping would make this a far more costly unit to you than need be. BUT. With a factory order & drop ship, you are only going to pay the freight once & then something like this can be had at that kind of price delivered to your address.

900F

Lots of winemakers in the family and the old trick was to dig out under the front steps and put the wine there, a mini wine cellar - separate from the house and cool. Good for wine.

Might also be good for guns - house burns and collapses in on itself, might be good for the fire resistant gun room to be located outside the footprint of the main structure.

Alas modifying your foundation is a major do it your self project and there's always the ever present danger of those commando groundhogs tunneling in from the outside.

So maybe not for everyone . . . .


:D