[Blain]

Ok, first off I just want to start off this thread saying that I don't know much of anything about the M16/AR15. I am more into the M1/M14 type rifles and never got into the .223 Caliber guns.

My recently converted pro-gun friend is nervous with the events going on in the world right now, (understandibly so) and he says he wants an M16 in case you know what hits the fan.


Now he and I don't know much about the M16 type rifles except that he wants one because he feels the M1s/M14s are too heavy. I promised him I would research up on it for him.

I guess that I just want to know the basics;


Which companies are the best?
Should I go with post ban, or pre ban and why?
What is the average price I should be looking at here?
Which barrel length is best?
20 rounders or 30 rounders?
What are the best sources and types of surplus ammo?

If there is anything else I should need to know, please feel free to include it. I am very interested and would appreciate any help I could get, thanks.

[bigsapper]

Colt, Bushmaster, DPMS and Rock River Arms are widely considered high quality at median prices.

Pre-bans are more expensive, as much as 2x-3x more. Depends how badly you want the preban "features".

Postbans run ~$800.00; prebans run ~$2000.00.

Barrel length is typically 16" or 20". longer=more velocity; shorter=lighter weight and better portability.

A lot of people feel the 20-rounders are more reliable, plus it's easier to shoot in the prone.

Preference is for Winchester Q3131(a) & Federal XM193. Lot's of good sources.

Without a doubt, the compendium of information on the AR-15 is available at http://www.ar15.com

[SteyrAUG]

www.ar15.com

I personally rank them in this order:

Prebans:

1. Colt
2. Armalite
3. Bushmaster

Postbans:

1. Armalite
2. Bushmaster
3. Rock River Arms
4. Colt

There is also the Cav15 poly lower AR15 variant that is probably the best "affordable" AR15 type rifle.

Avoid:

1. Professional Ordnance Carbon 15
2. Olympic Arms (The Plinker)
3. Hesse.
4. CAI, FAC, etc.

Some people like DPMS (Panther Arms) but I personally don't care too much for them. For a few bucks more you can get a RRA and a MUCH better rfle.

[David Roberson]

Best bets for .223 ammo are the gun shows. You can buy it mail order, but by the time you get shipping added in, it's usually more expensive than the best deals you can get at the shows.

Good milsurp ammo from a variety of NATO countries is available at just about every gun show I've attended. I hear varying things about the quality of the Russian stuff and would probably stay away from it if something else is available.

For all-around use, I'd recommend the 20-inch barrel. If I were going to be doing lots of CQ work I might prefer a 16-inch barrel for the slightly improved maneuverability, but for social use the .223 is an anemic cartridge that needs all the help it can get. Give it the extra velocity of four more inches of barrel.

[Rob96]

DPMS is putting out some very nice AR's. When I was in the market for an AR this past November I checked out four different Bushy's and the DPMS. The DPMS just seemd to have a higher level of quality. The shop I bought it from sells Bushmaster and DPMS, and they recomended the DPMS over the Bushy even though the DPMS was cheaper. You actually can't go wrong if you stick with ABCD's of the AR world. Someone correct me if I am wrong, the DPMS and RRA's are pretty much near identical as they get their barrels and upper from the same companies.

[Still Learning]

I don't know if it was the best advice but it's working for me. I needed the shorter barrel length so I went with the 16 inch. My bad move was to go with the AK muzzle flash suppressor which deafens everyone around you. I'm not going to shell out the bucks to replace it with the another barrel, however. Figure I'll spend the cash on more ammo and magazines.

As far as the magazines go, tell your friend to get both 20 and 30 rounders. I much prefer the 20 rounders for packing but keep a couple of 30 rounders on hand as well. Also advise him to stock up on Break Free CLP to keep his AR running.

Too tight chambers are the worst failing of the ARs. The Bushmasters are chambered to USGI specs. Some of the other brands are tighter and more prone to malfunctions. There is more information here: http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/_homepage.msnw?pgmarket=en-us.

It's good your friend is thinking about this. Make sure he's thinking about water, food and medical supplies as well. I'm not sure what is coming but I know it IS coming.

[curt]

Should I go with post ban, or pre ban and why?

The only advantage that a preban gun might have is the flash suppresor, which would be a definite advantage if your friend uses the rifle to fight at night, otherwise zero advantage. The advantages of bayonets and collapsible stocks are not significant.

What is the average price I should be looking at here? Postbans run 700 and up. They can be had as cheap as 550 but may require some work to be 100%. Prebans typically run 1200-2000 (or up for the insane).

Which barrel length is best? 20 inch has advantages past 100-150 yds. 16 inch is much handier.

20 rounders or 30 rounders? 20s are nice and compact and better for shooting prone, 30s are good when the zombie hoardes are coming up the hill and you've converted to full auto because what the heck zombies rule the earth.

I have 2 prebans (colt, and EA) one with collapsible stock, both with FS (vortex and GI), both with 16 inch barrels (M$ and lightweight profile) one flatop and one A2. Plus a postban bushmaster 20inch heavy barrel flatop with a bigass leupold scope.

[SteyrAUG]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, the DPMS and RRA's are pretty much near identical as they get their barrels and upper from the same companies.

Nope HUGE difference in quality.

You can just see it.

It is a common practice among Inet dealers to sell "supposedly" RRA and BUSHY stuff but swap out as many internals as possible with cheaper DPMS parts. Then when called on it they claim they are all the same or form the same source.

I have also heard the RRA and ASA use the same source for parts. But my gunsmith routinely gets ASAand DPMS rifles for service and hardly ever gets RRA rifles.

So that is my experience.

[GLOCKT]

Something in a A3 version,so your friend can scope later on as they become comfortable with the rifle.
Barrel length depends on what your friend intends to do with it.20" barrel is a standard size, very competitive and comfortable length.
They could always downsize to the 16"barrel if they feel the need.
1/9 twist rated barrels shoot all your standard grains.From 55 grains upto your 65 grains. If they desire to go above 65 grain weight rounds then a 1/8 twist will handle between 70 to 80 grain rounds.
The secret to starting out is buying a high quality lower and building around it.
Armalite,Bushmaster,Colt,(ABC)
DPMS,and Rock River are all quality manufacturers.
It starts out simple enough, by the time its all said and done one can easily spend thousands of dollars building,several rifles around a single lower.
I looked at the ABC models myself and built around a Bushmaster lower.
Milspec surplus ammo,very cheap and accurate.It's a trial and error project depending on the lenght of ranges and climate your shooting in.
When it comes to my Bushmaster and the XM15,(AR15) I wouldnt change a thing,It suits my needs and within my price range.

[bad_dad_brad]

My first AR15 was intended to replace my Ruger Mini-14 as a home defense and now and then short range varmint rifle. After much research I went with:

Bushmaster
16" barrel shorty hbar
No compensator (too loud!)
A2 carry handle with iron sights

Bushy's are mil-spec 5.56 ARs. They have a good reputation. I wanted to start with a carbine. Someday I will get an AR upper for longer range work. I am very very happy with my Bushy shorty and plan on building on this quality system.

[gun-fucious]

http://www.bushmaster.com/images/ar15production.gif

every take an econ class?

heres a good overview of the features
(Bushmaster uses a higher grade barrel steel than most and chromes the bore)

http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/ar15brands.msnw

[GLOCKT]

Bushmaster XM15/A3 Shorty/w break.
added;
24" V-match Bushmaster complete upper with bolt.
1/2moa modular rear sight,modular flip front sight.
Accu-wedged.
Les Tam sling.
JP two stage trigger and speed hammer.
Nikon,3x9-40mm scope.
B-square 1/2"riser.
DPMS 10 round mag.
spare Bushmaster 10 round mag.
2-30 round mags
2-Harris bi-pods.
spare firing pin.
sight adjustment tool.
and theres still another set of competitve front and rear sights I am looking at for the upcoming matches.

[Rob96]

It seems, Steyr, that everyone hears something about every make. I have heard of far more satisfied DPMS users than unsatisfied. Like I had stated, stick with Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt, DPMS, and RRA and you can't go wrong.

[Kahr carrier]

Bushmaster,Armalite.:)

[cwalker3]

When my FFL called to say my ARF.com, RRA made, AR M4-gery had arrived, he said that it had the finest fit and finish of any AR he had ever seen. Sure enough it put my Bushy to shame. I don't much care for the fixed "telescopic" stock, but otherwise it's a beautiful rifle. I'm not concerned that the barrel isn't chrome lined as I'll probably never put enough rounds through it to wear out the barrel. Reliability is on a par with the Bushy. In other words, stick with USGI or Thermold mags, keep it clean and lubed, and it'll go BANG everytime you pull the trigger.

[cheygriz]

Regardless of what brand he gets, the important things to look for are:

1. Military 5.56 chamber, NOT SAAMI .223 chamber.
2. Chrome lined bore and chamber.

As for brands, I would stick with Bushmaster, Colt, RRA, Armalite.

And if you get quality milsurp magazines, the 30 rounders are every bit as reliable as the 20 rounders.

[Engineer]

Another vote for either Bushmaster or ArmaLite. I've got 3 Bushy's, an ArmaLite, a DPMS and 3 Oly's. You can definitely tell where Oly cut some corners in some of their rifles (lack of heat shields under the handguard in my Plinker) but honestly, I'd say their stock triggers feel the best, followed by my ArmaLite and then the DPMS and finally the Bushmasters. None of them can compare to an aftermarket trigger, but all three of my Oly's seem to have the cleanest break. If you're gonna get just one, go for a standard 20" Bushmaster with A2 sights (or else a flattop if you think you are going with optics).

[Blain]

Thanks for all the replies so far, him and I both really appreciate it. Infact he was telling me that he was surprised at how friendly and helpful you guys were.

Though I do have a question for you guys that he will need to know..

What/where is a good source for M16/AR15 mags (both 20 and 30 rounders? Are the only M16 mags worth getting USGI, as they are with the M14s, or are there actually good/quality AR15 mags that are not USGI? If so what brands are they and what brands should one avoid?

What is the average price for new and used 20 and 30 round USGI (or qual aftermarket) mags? I doubt they are as expensive as M14 mags.

Thanks again and appreciate all the help! Words can't describe how proud I am of my friend for taking the responsibility to prepare and arm himself.

[six 4 sure]

My vote would be for a Bushmaster with the 16" barrel. As suggested, I'd pick up some 20 and 30rd mags.

I've purchased most of my mags on www.ar15.com in the for sale section. Although I haven't bought anything from them www.rguns.net have the best prices I've found. I have a friend that speaks highly of them.

Six

[444]

I own a number of AR varients (6 with several more on the way) and I have shot more. My opinion of the best, most versitile AR would be a Post Ban Bushmaster 16" flat top with 30 round mags. If I could only own one, that is what I would buy. If I hit the lottery tonight and didn't own a single gun, this is would be the first thing I would buy.

I buy all my mags from CDNN Investments. Another good source for AR mags is the equipment exchange section of AR15.com.
A brand new USGI 30 round magazine is usually $30 give or take a dollar or two. That is the standard. Obviouisly used USGI 30s are cheaper. 20s are slightly cheaper. Mags marked Colt are usually a little more if they are new. Orolites, and Termolds are about the same as USGI.

[bigsapper]

There is an excellent FAQ on AR15.com about magazines. Make sure you research rguns.net on AR15.com before purchasing from them.

[444]

Should I go with post ban, or pre ban and why?
What is the average price I should be looking at here?
Which barrel length is best?
20 rounders or 30 rounders?
What are the best sources and types of surplus ammo?
____________________________________________________I personally see no reason to buy a pre-ban. This means that you are going to have to do without the bayonet lug, the flash suppressor, and the collapsable stock. I personally have no use for a bayonet. I much prefer having a muzzle brake over a flash suppressor. I don't shoot much at night and if I was planning on shooting at night, I would be using my AR equipped with the Surefire 500A weapons light, so my night vision after firing wouldn't really come into play. On the other hand I find that a good muzzle brake greatly increases my accurcy during rapid fire such as double taps. I am so sold on the use of a muzzle brake that I am replacing the flash suppressors on my pre-bans with muzzle brakes. This has nothing to do with punishing recoil. It is about muzzle rise. I own a pre-ban with a collapsable stock and a post ban with a fixed fake collapsable stock. The collapsable stocks make the gun look cool as heck IMO, but it isn't really a very good stock. It is very hard to maintain a consistant cheek weld on the stock and I find that I can not attain the same degree of accuracy when using the collapsale stocks.

I would say that a good post-ban rifle would cost right around $800 as an average price.

I consider 16" to be the best single barrel lenth. It makes the rifle handier (?) and I don't notice any loss of accuracy, but then again maybe I can't shoot well enough to make it a factor. You can get shorter barrels which have a muzzle brake attached to the barrel to make it legal, but this greatly increases the report and also costs you velocity. Obviously as you shorten the barrel, you lose velocity. I consider the 16" to be an acceptable comprimise.

20 round mags are easer to shoot offhand for me. I find the 30s to be just as reliable and the price seems to be very close. If I was only buying a few mags I would go with the 30s. But I own both.

I don't buy surplus ammo. Civilian ammo is very inexpensive in this caliber and has better bullets both in terms of accuracy and performance.

[Kentucky Rifle]

Like Brad, I chose the 16" Bushmaster
"Shorty" plain barrel carbine. It's a truly wonderful rifle that's not malfunctioned one single time. One time after I'd put about 100 rounds into the target, I decided that I'd play around and TRY to get it to malfunction. I lined up the gaps in the three gas rings on the bolt and figured it would make the rifle "short-stroke". However, the Bushmaster fired and ejected normally.
I intended to buy a 20" upper--but that phony lawsuit regarding the "sniper" has ###### me off SO much, I'm going to buy a whole new Bushmaster 20" rifle for my wife.
Oh, one more thing. I don't like those rubber "Accu-Wedges". JP Enterprises makes a much better solution with their locking rear take down pin. It ABSOLUTELY locks the upper and the lower together firmly. It's made of stainless steel and I bought it so long ago that I can't remember the cost. It's also sold in the Bushmaster catalog.
I get my ammunition by the case from ammoman.com~~good prices and free shipping.
I find it odd that the 50gr. hollow point is (for me) a little more accurate than the 55gr FMJ. Anybody else notice anything like this? Or is it just my weird shooting? :)

KR

[Kaylee]

Though I have a stubborn traditional aesthetic love for the M14 platform, I gotta admit.. I shoot the AR better, no questions. Your friend may have the same experience.

One thing though on the issue of weight though, since you mentioned he felt the M1/M14 rifles were too heavy to consider. Personally, I find that the modern heavy barrels on ARs negate that advantage. Others may have had different experiences, but I remember when I sold my 16" Bushy A2 (which I otherwise loved) that it just felt too heavy for a .223.. a shorty M1A isn't much heavier, if at all, with substansially more power to it.

That said, I may one of these days replace said AR, but pony up the extra dollars to get a fluted barrel. Or a gov't profile, either way.

-K

[Blain]

Does anyone make a 1 in 14 twist barrel? :D

http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/M16part2.html

" Yes you say, but what about that fantastic "meat ax" effect that the 5.56mm round has on flesh? Won’t the 5.56 mm tear a man’s arm or head off if it hits him? In a word, no! This is a myth that has been perpetuated since the AR-15/M16’s earliest days, and here is as good a place as any to lay this claim to rest! The original .223/5.56mm was derived from the little .222 Remington or at best the .223 Remington Magnum Cartridges. Now the .222 Remington and .222 Remington Magnum originally used a 40 or 45 grain bullet and a 1-14 barrel twist. Ballistic engineers found that 55 grain bullet pushed the stability of the 1-14 twist to the absolute limit in terms of stability. The initial rounds loaded for the 5.56mm were marginally ballistically stable, and tended to tumble if anything got in its way.

This was apparently especially true of flesh. A 55 grain bullet striking flesh when only stabilized with a 1-14 twist, tumbled with devastating results, but it had a problem – it was only marginally accurate. Now it’s possible to have a bullet that is known to tumble, but if it won’t reliably hit the target at the maximum effective range you are in big trouble. After the initial test results (including some in Southeast Asia) were in, it was apparent that this WAS an effective round (assuming that a tumbling bullet was employed)! However, it also became obvious that this rifle wasn’t exactly a "tack driver" in terms of accuracy. Air Force cold weather tests in January 1963 showed definite "bullet wobble" around the projectile’s rotational axis causing unacceptable accuracy. As any good ordnance folks would do, they tightened the twist to 1-12 and the accuracy improved. The order to change the barrel twist was signed by Robert S. McNamara on the 26th of July 1963. The accuracy immediately improved, but the "magic bullet" quit tumbling! All of a sudden, we had a reasonably accurate round with a bullet that was essentially ineffective in terms of cleaving flesh with the much vaunted "meat ax effect". The round was now reasonably accurate, but much underpowered for its designed maximum effective range of 500 yds."

7.62 NATO (M14 & M60 Machine-gun):

Bullet Weight = 150 grains
Nominal Muzzle Velocity = approximately 2700 fps.
Muzzle Energy = 2427 ft. Lbs.
Muzzle Energy at 500 yds. = 1576 ft. lbs.



5.56 NATO (XM16E1):

Bullet Weight = 55 grains
Nominal Muzzle Velocity = approximately 3185 fps
Muzzle Energy = 1239 ft. lbs.
Muzzle Energy at 500 yds. = 252 ft. lbs.



.22 Long Rifle (Generic .22 Rifle):

Bullet Weight = 40 grains
Nominal Muzzle Velocity = 1335 fps. (high velocity ctg.)
Muzzle Energy = 158 ft. lbs
Muzzle Energy at 500 yds. = ?



7.62 X 39 (AK-47):

Bullet Weight = 125 grains
Nominal Muzzle Velocity = 2400 fps.
Muzzle Energy = 1598 ft. lbs.
Muzzle Energy at 500 yds. = 414 ft. lbs.



.30 Carbine:

Bullet Weight = 110 grains
Nominal Muzzle Velocity = approximately 2000 fps.
Muzzle Energy = 976 ft. lbs.
Muzzle Energy at 500 yds. = 182 ft. lbs

[444]

:confused:

What is your point ?

[Blain]

That the 1 in 14 twist barrel will make the .223 that much more lethal!

[SteyrAUG]

The .223 round is already pretty lethal, a 1:14 would just make it less accurate. Little spinning buzz saws aint the most aerodynamic things in the world. ;)

If you want that effect look into the AK74 (5.45x39) which is stable in flight but exhibits a dum dum characteristic when contact with soft tissue is made.

[444]

The concept of having a bullet tumble on impact is acheived by the Russians by having a void in the bullet. Appearently the accuracy is not effected but upon impact the bullet tumbles. Of course the easy way to make the bullet more lethal is to simply use softpoint bullets.
One of the beautiful things about the M16/AR15 rifle is it's superb accuracy. Something I would never intentionally do is to decrease the accuracy. Shot placement is the key to speeding up the lethal effect of a bullet. Good bullet performance is second, but also important. I am no scholor of military bullets, but it seems to me that the military has to use bullets that are very versitile which means that for any one thing, they are lacking. For example the military seems to need more penetration to shoot through flack vests, barriers, and light armor. This means that you can't have an expanding bullet. But, if you have a bullet that shoots through all that stuff, it won't work as well on human targets; it will over penetrate and not expand. As civilians, we don't need to worry about all that. We can shoot whatever bullet we want. We can shoot very light jacketed varmint bullets that completely come apart in the target. We can use softpoints that expand in the target. Or we can use FMJ/AP/or military ball with much better penetration.

[curt]

the 1:14 twists effect on lethaliity was an erroneous theory. All bullets stop spining guickly after entering flesh and become unstable. Most rifle bullets then yaw and flip end over end. The .223 bullet then tends to break at the cannelure and fragment which teans at the walls of the temporary cavity turning it into a permanent cavity. No need to sacrifice acccuracy for lethality. Plus if you go to the 62 grain or higher bullets you probably won't stabilize the bullet properly with a 1:14.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

62 grain won't stabilize in a 1:12 barrel at 100yds. It sure won't stabilize in a 1:14 barrel - which is rarer than hens teeth and doesn't offer any enhanced terminal ballistics anyway.

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/

[Poodleshooter]

1-14" twist is only useful if you wish to shoot a steady diet of 35-50gr varmint bullets at high velocity. It's too specific, and not nearly as versatile as say a 1-10 or 1-9" twist.

[Blain]

Well, my friend and I stopped back at the shop today. The news of increased terrorist alerts and tensions finally got to him. He knew that he needed the gun ASAP! So we went to the shop and he bought the 14.5" barrel version with the AK muzzle break. In 7 days he will be able to actually take it home (stupid waiting period). He seems to be very excited though, as he should be. I, for one, am very proud of him.


Now all he needs to do is to buy some magazines and ammo. What places do you guys recommend for buying ammo? Who has the best deals and so forth.

[Blain]

How is Silver Bear .223? $50 for 500 rounds seems like a bargin!

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/_223.html

I also found this page with surplus ammo prices on it.

http://www.ammunitionstore.com/pricelist_ammo.htm#223


Anyone know which ammo type to recommend? What is best out of a 14.5" barrel, best for putting a man down?

[Rovert]

Blain, congratulate your friend for us, and welcome him to a long, proud list of members in the 'Black Rifle' club.

For LOADS of great info, try:
www.ar15.com

Surplus and Russian ammo is alright for plinking and practice, but for serious SHTF engagements, you're gonna want the 'real deal'. For more information than you'll ever want to know about ammunition:
http://www.ammo-oracle.com/
I also have permission from the author for a PDF version, that's formatted for printing. It makes for a great reference booklet.

As a general rule of thumb, when it comes to life-support equipment, you don't want to be cheap. There's no medal for second place in survival, and if you're dead, he won't be able to spend the money he saved on quality firearms or equipment. If you have a $50 life, then buy $50 ammo.

BUY IT ONCE, BUY IT RIGHT.

[Blain]

Thanks for that ammo site, GREAT info. Ok so what I have found so far is that he wants the 55 grain 193 ball ammo as it fragments at a longer range (out to 110 yards) as opposed to the M855 ball.

Is this a good brand/price for 1000 rounds of M193?

http://www.ammunitionstore.com/Images/Ammo/A020.1.htm

http://www.ammunitionstore.com/Images/Ammo/A020.1.jpg

$156.00/1,000 rounds.

Mfg: Olympic, Greece
Date: 2001
Caliber: .223 Rem.
Bullet Type: 55 gr. M193 Ball (FMJ)
Primer: Boxer, Non-corrosive
Box Quan: 20
Case Quan: 1000
Notes: Commercial Ammunition
Item # A020.1

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Check out the ammunition forum at AR15.com. There have been several problems reported with Olympic ammo.

You can get M193 ammo manufactured at the same Lake City plant that manufactures U.S. military ammunition for $199/1000. I wouldn't take the chance with the Greek ammo for only $40 less.

[444]

I am not sure if you are looking for cheap ammo or you want mil-surp ammo for some reason. I just bought a case of Winchester white box for $179/case. I also bought two cases of PMC for less than that. I bought this stuff for the carbine class at Gunsite. I normally shoot Wolf at $97/case. Have shot several cases of it and have had exactly zero problems with it. If someone tells you not to shoot Wolf, ask two questions; A) Have you ever personally shot it ? B) Describe exactly the problems you had with it. Of course specify from the beginning that you are not interested in heresay, rumor, or speculation.

[Rovert]

Blane, I'm with Bart on this one. Why are we again talking about saving money?!?!? :what:

Is that the epitaph he wants on his headstone? "Here Lies ___, saved $40 on Ammo by buying Olympic."

Would you want to save money on a cheap parachute?
Would you want to save money on factory second seatbelts?
Would you want to save money on a brain surgeon that graduated last in his class, and charges less?

I've heard (anecdotal) that the Greek/Olympic ammo is corrosive. My firsthand knowledge is that my partner bought 45ACP Olympic, and had more duds, FTF and FTE's than any other. He felt it was totally unreliable, and wouldn't ever buy it again, not even for practice.

Hey, man... it's his money, he can do whatever he wants, but the guy just got one of the finest firearms known to mankind... and now he's skimping on ammo for SELF DEFENSE. Whassup with that?

All due respect, but maybe he should put that money he's saving toward a good therapist, because he needs to get his head screwed on straight.

[Rovert]

Blane, FYI, if it's just plinking ammo you're after, I'd recommend the Swiss GP90 from Ammoman. It's about $200/case, but comes packaged in a gorgeous, brand new ammo box. I have also shot the SilverBear HP, and haven't had a problem... but then again, I'm not ready to trust my life to it, either.

www.ammoman.com

[Blain]

Ammo man seems way too expensive.

Wow guys, I'm surprised! .223 surplus cost even more than .308 surplus! :what:

All I know is that we need M193 ammo. It must be that type as it produces the best wounding/damage traits for the rifle. If anyone can show us a link for that lake city ammo or another good source of M193 we would much appreciate it, thanks!


Also, how many mags would you recommend he start out with? 5?

[444]

Blain, I think I am beating a dead horse here, but at the risk of being obnoxious: GI ball ammo will not produce the best wounding/damage traits for the rifle. If that is what you want, you need civilian softpoint ammo. It is also cheaper.

I would go with six mags since this is the number that fits into two GI mag pouches. Or maybe 7 since you want one in the rifle also. Tell him to buy a couple every payday.

[Blain]

Hmmm, I don't mean to refute what you're saying, but that ammo page that Rovert showed me said that the M193's ability to frag at ranges under 200 produced much more devistating wounds than even soft point ammo.

Besides, I could get M193 for a lot less than I could with 1000 rounds of softpoint. Anyway, does anyone know a good source (supply with a link) for M193 ammo? Olympic is no good.

[Blain]

Bump

[six 4 sure]

Ammoman may seem a bit expensive, but shipping is included in the price, just in case you didn't catch that.

Six