[InTheBlack]

Watched the CMP highpower video; useless.

If I hold the gun low enough to make solid contact between the buttstock and my shoulder, my head is way above the sights. If I get my head into a position where I can see just under my eyebrow, the butt isn't really touching my shoulder, and all the tension is between the sling and the pistol grip hand.

How do I solve this?

The new Creedmore catalog has a "redesigned" shoulder pad; looks like a rather thick pad on top of the coat. This is legal??? Can I stick a couple inches of stuff on top of my coat to make up for the fact that the AR buttstock is way too short?

Failing that, can you pack as much stuff as can fit underneath the coat?

As a corrolary, how about packing stuff under your pants at the knee in order to raise your forward arm a couple inches higher?

[Steve Smith]

Well then, this will keep me awake at work for a little while.

I assume you are using a cross-legged position. One thing you could do is experiment with different sling positions and positions on the knee. Luckily the sitting rapid position is "easy" by comparison to the other stages and you can experiment all sorts of ways and still clean the target on this one. Try getting your left knee directly on your right boot and having your right calf in a lower position. I don't know how flexible you are, but if you get WAY over you can make this position work, I think. I can sit on my ass cross-legged style and put both elbows on the ground in front of my shins. This is obviously not legal for the position, but it shows you that I can get as low as I want. Try to get to that point and you can manhandle the position into something you can use. You could also switch to a cross ankled position. That will get the gun up quite a bit.

You can have things under the coat, but keep in mind that some things outside of the coat or anything that "catches" the gun or your body will be considered "artificial support" and is illegal. I take it you're shooting Service Rifle?

To add:

3.12 Padding-Shoulder pads, sling pads and elbow pads may be wom
provided they are constructed so as not to provide artificial support.

3.12.1 Shooting Pants-Trousers made of cotton, cotton twill, khaki or
similar weight material which may have non-slip- patches added to the knees and
buttocks are permitted. Trousers made of any heavier material (example: leather
or canvas) are considered to provide artificial support and are prohibited.


These two items tell me you will be very close to "artificial support" if you have additional chunks sticking out of your coat, or if you have something going on in your pants. (that doesn't sound right) lol

3.18 General-All devices or equipment which may facilitate shooting and
which are not mentioned in these rules, or which are contrary to the spirit of
these rules and regulations, are forbidden. The Match Director, Official
Referee, Jury Chairman or Supervisor shall have the right to examine a
shooter's equipment or apparel. The responsibility shall be upon the competitor
to submit questionable equipment and apparel for official inspection and
approval in sufficient time prior to the beginning of a match so that it will not
inconvenience either the competitor or the official.


This tells me that (at least in my opinion) you may be going outside of the spirit, in which you have to deal with or "put up" with the M16/AR15 as designed.

[InTheBlack]

Well, when the new Creedmore catalog gets to your door look at page 4. The new shoulder pad seems to have a raised padded rim. What _objective_ criteria exists to determine if that adds "artificial support?"

Bending forward isn't the issue. If you sit up straight, you could hold the gun just as you do for the standing position, with your head perfectly level and the butt as high as required to do so. The more you lean forward, the better contact you get supporting the elbows on the legs. But every inch forward brings your head backwards and sideways. Aiming the gun "outboard" reduces the sideways tilt of the head but increases the backwards tilt. My frame is "gangly" and I can't find a happy medium.

A hold which puts my head very much sideways is the only way I get reasonably solid contact in all the places it should be solid.

OR by not wrapping the sling around my wrist, but instead letting it go straight from the swivel to my arm, I can get a good head position.

I'm also using the second or third hole (3rd in prone) on the new synthetic Turner sling. I'm about 5'11" and I'm wondering if something is very strange in my position or if this sling is just short. Don't most people use something like the 6th-10th hole?

[odiedog]

It is not at all uncommon for "gangly" shooters to shoot with considerable cant in their rifle. If you have to tip your head over 45 degrees to be comfortable, then tip the rifle to match. I used to shoot with a 45 degree outward cant and I could clean 200 with it. Since then I have played around and I am more upright. Takes less mental thought to do windage and elevation adjustments and I am limited in my mental capacity.

I use the 10th hole on my Les Tam sling in sitting. I sit cross legged and I'm pretty low. The back of my humerus sits way out on the flat of my tibial head, just short of touching my supporting boot sole.. That puts me forward quite a bit too which got rid of the cant. I have the butt way up in the crease of my chest and arm. I use a recoil pad inside my jacket to push the gun forward a bit too. Very legal to do and sometimes necessary to make the AR fit correctly.

Too bad the videos were useless, I got a lot out of them when I started. You might just be too far along in your shooting skills.

If I get a chance to get a picture, I'll see if I can figure out how to post it. Like I said, limited mentally.:D

[Steve Smith]

I am further convinced that the gangly and the mentally challenged are at a handicap in this game.


LOL!

[InTheBlack]

One problem with trying to build the sitting position while in my living room is not knowing if the rifle is actually level. Its easy to build a great position that is pointing towards the ground. I've gone so far as to try attaching a line level to the carry handle, with a dental mirror so I can see the bubble without moving my head too much.

I'd like to avoid a large cant, if I can.

I just realized there at two aspects WRT the angle of the barrel to your body. You can pivot the muzzle on your shoulder inboard/outboard, but also the placement of the butt- towards the sternum or on the arm- is a factor. Should the butt be placed outwards a lot more than for prone? I think putting the butt on my upper arm would give a better head position. Have to mess around more after dinner...u

[Tech1]

In The Black,

It's hard to diagnose without seeing your position, but you talk about getting into position in your living room. If you are dry firing / practicing positions indoors, are you doing it with all the equipment you shoot with? You always need to practice exactly as you shoot to keep your routine. That includes having your boots or shoes on which will affect your elevation.
I'm 5'11 also but not gangly, I'm assuming you mean skinny on that. It's my guess your sling is set wrong. I use a Turner Leather 54" sling and shoot sitting on hole 9. Try this..get into position, sling on the arm and foward hand where you ususally have it, But as you stated, sit upright as if shooting offhand, than gradually lean into the full sitting position. The toe of the butt should be in the pocket created on your jacket, if after you get into position your elevation is off then adjust the butt up or down to get your proper elevation. Remember where the butt belongs for proper elevation that way when you assume the position during competition, after you drop you grab the butt and place it in the shoulder where it belongs.
For me, after im in position, i really dont have a firm grip on the pistol grip because the sling and my body hold the rifle tight, plus i place my triceps forward of my shins so my body absorbs all the recoil and there's minimum movement.
your forward hand could also be a problem, if your sling is loose it will cause your forward hand to have to be forward to take up the slack. your forward hand should be just in front of the mag well to maybe 2", but everyone is different. dont worry about muscling the weapon because after you sling is set correct, it will support it.
hopefully that helps a little

[odiedog]

Watch out for mounting on the arm. Big pulse potential. If you are as far in on the sling as you say, It seems like you must be way back with the butt. Loosen it up and see if you can get further foward. That will get your head more upright.

Not sure if I would go to all the trouble with a level. Just get in position next to a tape measure on the wall. Look over to see how high your eyes are. You don't need =/- .001" Put a dot on the wall the same height for dry fire. Actual targets are going to be higher and lower and you'll have to adjust. Usually I make elevation changes by where I put my support hand. Starting point is web of hand on the 5th ring back for sitting (all the way out for prone.) I've seen some very good HM shoot sitting with their support hand back at the mag well, just like standing ( I think Derrick Martin shoots sitting this way. Side Note: Prayers for Derrick, Hope he is doing OK in Iraq, haven't heard any updates)

Just some thoughts

Steve

[InTheBlack]

Yes I'm using all the equipment, and I realize the shoes are a large elevation factor.

Obie, I'm on the 2nd or 3rd hole from the END of the sling; I can only make it another 2 inches longer. I have my hand pretty close to the magazine well. If I moved my hand forward, the butt would make better contact with my shoulder but my head gets too high above the sights.

Is counting holes from the free end the standard terminology?

If I had a good position, then I could mark the height of the sights and creat e a level spot on the wall. But I'm trying to FIND the good position. Its got to be level; a spot 3-6 feet above the ground 200 yards away is essentially level. But a spot on the wall that is 6 inches higher or lower than my muzzle is not.

Tried the crossed ankles or legs position, but then I'm holding all the weight up with my thigh & butt muscles. Maybe the old fashioned bent knees, feet apart is worth a try. But not much traction with my heels on concrete.

One thing I did get from the CMP video is to put the sling all the way up till it touches my armpit; then it ends up pulling from the outside of my arm and doesn't seem to slip downwards.


[Jon Coppenbarger]

Sitting? hummmm!!!


That is a position best fitted to your body but is it the easiest to master?
The target is the easiest to clean well thats what they say and ok I have alot left to learn on it and I know my problems.

Now this is my 3rd year back in highpower this coming season and after my early years in the 80's using the cross ankle position I had made up my mind to shoot cross legged with the ar15 and learn it and give it a while to come around.

After the first year I did clean a few targets but the position I felt needed work as I felt it was just not good enough and not totally repeatible.

Tried the different grips, cants and lots of minor and I mean lots of minor adjustements and now after (TWO YEARS) not two weeks or two months I have what I feel is a workible position for me.

Yes it feels good to shoot a 200 but a 200 will not win a big match you need the x count to go with it. So my position before got me taking most of the 10 ring up or at least half of it.

Now my position is just a lot more stable with NO cant and my groups are about 2" wide so far in the last few matches just strung up and down slightly but now its a solid repeatible comfy position.

You need to have someone look at your position and let you know why you are having the problems you are having.

It is not something you master over night but takes years to get down, thats not saying it takes you years to shoot good scores as it does not but it takes years of tuning to get it near perfect.

[SRM]

Start by building your position....preferably with another shooter at hand.

Arrange your mat. Put on your glove and coat, but leave the coat loose. Put your face on the stock and your stock in your shoulder. Now arrange your lega,knees and feet to support your elbows. Cant if needed. Once you have the basic position, add your sling and experiment with different tensions. This is where the other shooter is an advantage, to rig the sling while you are in position.

Once your new position is set, mentally memorize as much about it as you can. Things like angles, how you back feels, your hand positions, cheek weld, cant, right over left or left over right, etc. Sit in it for at least 1/2 hour. Then extract yourself and try to get the same position again. Once you have reestablished the position, record, on paper, the details about the position.

Then go practice it. Modify as needed.

This is worth exactly what you paid for it.....

SRM

[Jon Coppenbarger]

I used to and still do once in awhile is to just get in the sitting position while watching TV.
Sitting on the floor I will get into the position (with out rifle and jacket) but do it often enough once you have it right and it will start to get your muscle memory down and the more you do it the easier it will become for you.

[Freedomv]

May I ask what rifle are you shooting?
Vern
Whoops,,,,,,,,,,, Ar-15 I guess as you mentioned pistol grip. I need to pay closer attention.

[30Cal]

I'm 6'1" and pretty long in the torso. If I shoot cross legged, I have to choke way up to get the muzzle out of the dirt and end up with a massive cant and it puts my head way up above the sights.

My position now looks more like Tubb's--between a crossed leggs posit'n and a crossed ankle posit'n. My right ankle is under my left calf and I feel like I'm stretched out over my legs. Feet are about 30 degrees off the target. It's a great posit'n.

My sitting position (http://webpages.charter.net/tyoberg/hipower/DSCN0025a.JPG)

I also find the buttstock loose in my shoulder (length of pull is too short). I fixed this on the cheap by putting a pad under my coat for the sitting and prone stages.

Developing a decent sitting posit'n takes a lot of trial and error, especially with the wooden guns.
Ty

[Jason Demond]

You could try Kneeling instead of sitting. They said at Perry, that is was a legal substitute for the sitting position.

[InTheBlack]

Shot a 100 yard reduced match Saturday. Sitting rapid first two rounds were good, 10s at 10 or 11. Second magazine must have changed my cant; shot in the 3 to 6 o-clock quadrant. 96 overall.

Practiced after the match; tending to shoot right with less cant and down/right with more cant. Once I lucked into a comfy position but couldn't replicate it. Maybe just sitting down into position and putting up the rifle-- again and again -- until I find the comfy spot again. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition...

I think I need to place the butt a lot higher than seems correct, because as I settle into it, the leaning and the sling pull it down and that seems to work better.

My inner upper arm gets pinched; not really the sling but stuff bunching up under it.

Also in prone after 10 shots, I'm getting nerve pain in the base of my thumb. That might be referred from the pinch in the upper arm; have to break out the anatomy book... Median nerve, maybe. Pain doesn't go away when I shift the stock on my hand.

[Swamprabbit]

I just started this game last year. I am 6' 2" and find that while I shoot cross-legged, I really short-stock the forend. I, now, fairly consistently shoot in the high 190s in this position. It took a while to find the comfortable postion but I keep my legs tight in (tends to raise my knees up higher) and wear my sling low.

As a related note, I have been working with my 13 year old on position shooting. Though he is quite athletic, is isn't very "limber". I found out that he actually can't even sit in a cross legged position. I happened to have a kneeling pad and let him give it a try. He loved it. He shot his first match, a reduced 100yd match, that way and this was his best stage. Different things for different people.

[Steve Smith]

Maybe, but get him to start stretching anyway.

[BlindRat]

A couple of things come to mind reading your post and the thread. My guess it that you're longer in the torso than most.

1) You definitely want to maintain shoulder contact, because that is what contributes to stability of the position. Creedmoor has offered a removable pad for the shoulder for a long time now. You don't need full contact of the butt. Just enough to give you good tension on the sling. With the AR, "good tension" isn't much.

2) As others have suggested, let the rifle cant to the outboard if necessary. Let it go where it wants to go, just make sure you do it the same repeatedly. That will help you get your eyes behind the sight without crooking your neck too radically.

3) Revisit building a crossed ankle position. Like you, I can't get into a crossed legged sitting without the muzzle pointing down. To keep from using muscle to keep your legs up, pull your right foot under your left knee or thereabouts. Left elbow then goes over the right foot, with your left leg/knee in between. To further gain you elevation, pull your left hand back toward the magazine as the others have also suggested. My physique is a bit different than yours, but that's what it takes to get elevated onto the target.

4) If all that fails, look into an "Open Legged" sitting. Drape your upper arms over your knees/lower leg. Knees can be near your armpit. It's not "the" most stable, but it's won the National Highpower Championship several times in the last 10 or 15 years, and it's definitely more stable than the best kneeling position.

Good luck. Sitting has been my bane and I share your frustration.

[ks_shooter]

This may seem like heresy, but have you tried an open-legged position? Feet flat on the ground, elbows over knees, triceps against shins? This is a very comfortable position for me. Almost feels like prone in terms of having a good cheek weld and minimal body tension. If you place your feet wide-apart, so that your shins are almost vertical (left to right, not front to back), there is very little wobble. I won't claim that this is as stable as a good low cross-legged position, but the cheek-weld can be better and the position is very repeatable. I also have a long torso and find the sitting positioin difficult to get comfortable with. I have shot both open-legged and cross-ankled. When I shoot cross-ankled I use about a 10~15 deg. outboard cant and have the buttstock partially on my bicep. I still shoot a little better cross-ankled, when I get in a good position, but sometimes the center of my group migrates from where my sighters went, because my position ends up slightly different after breaking position to start the string. So my groups tend to be a little larger when shot open-legged, but they are more consistently centered on the target.

I find that the biggest issue for me is not finding a position that has very little wobble. The target scoring rings are failrly large considering the distance and the relative stability of the sitting position. The problem is when your position and NPA start to drift as the gun pushes you around and your muscle tension changes. You will have more muscle tension if the position doesn't feel natural or comfortable. Think about long-term stability (your NPA during the entire rapid string) versus short-term stability (your hold as you squeeze the trigger). The position you can maintain consistently the longest during the rapid string is probably going to work the best for you even if it starts out a little less stable in terms of your hold. A short-term stable position whose NPA fades during the string or rebuilds slightly different after the mag change will cause your shots to string away from the center.