Communism or Facism?


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ShaiVong
April 25, 2004, 01:11 AM
I've been thinking. This country is on the decline IMHO. Its still the best thing going, but in a few generations without any radical action, this country is going to be as crappy as Europe/Aussy in terms of gunrights. ATM I think its just sliding into the cesspit of socialism. People never, ever, ever, everevereverever learn. Ever. Well for any meaningfull length of time.


You've got two extremes: Communism and Facism.

In communism, nobody has rights. We all have to work for the "greater good". The government tells you where to work, how much you make, where to live and what to think. There is an upper crust elite that controls the populace and pretends to give the southside of a northbound rat. But they dont.

In facism, there is one group or person who dictates the laws in a country. For the most part you have no voice and no rights. Theoretically this isnt a BAD thing, assuming the dude in charge is a stand-up kind of guy. He never is. There is an elite upper curst that does what they want and controls the populace. They dont pretend to care (atleast they're honest!).

So if you had to choose between the two, which would it be? Countries tend to gravitate to one extreme or another in this world, with few moderates.

Personally I would have to choose facism. I don't know why. Socialism makes me sick. I would rather be in Nazi Germany than Stalin's Russia. How many people did Hitler kill (not counting combat deaths)? 6 million Jews + others like Jehovahs Witnesses? Total of like 8-10 million? How many people did Stalin, Pol Pot, Chairman Mau kill?

Religious facists on the other hand... I don't know about that. I cant say I would really like to live under some stinking muslem dictator. But then again I dont really like that part of the world at all.


So which would you choose?

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Jim March
April 25, 2004, 02:06 AM
Neither.

Trust me on this. I will not tolerate either.

fjolnirsson
April 25, 2004, 02:18 AM
Like Jim, I choose neither. Every man has a line in the sand.
A free man can only be pushed so far......
I think there are a lot of gun owners out there who have nearly reached their lines.
And I don't think fascism/communism are on the menu.

HBK
April 25, 2004, 03:20 AM
Neither.

Combat-wombat
April 25, 2004, 04:19 AM
I will live under neither one. If I am forced to make a decision, I will choose death.

Bunkster
April 25, 2004, 05:14 AM
As to the death count of Communism, this is best summed up with "The Black Book of Communism". See the reviews at Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0674076087/qid=1082883922/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-7192425-0075158?v=glance&s=books

Regards

The_Antibubba
April 25, 2004, 06:54 AM
The question is moot. I cannot choose to live under either system, since, historically, I and others like me have not been permitted to live.

joab
April 25, 2004, 07:00 AM
Would you rather be beaten into submission with a baseball bat or a big ugly stick

Hkmp5sd
April 25, 2004, 07:34 AM
but in a few generations without any radical action

In a few generations, we will be dead and the new generations, indoctrinated by public schools, liberal news and entertainment media and political correctness, will be running the country. Look at the social and political changes in the US since the 1950s and one can guesstimate how different this country will be in another 50 years.

Tom C.
April 25, 2004, 08:58 AM
IMO, the only difference between Communism and Fascism is who owns the means of production (i.e. industry). Communism insists in owning the means of production and putting party hacks in charge of production facilities. Fascism is content to let the original owners maintain control of the factories, and they, the Fascists, control the owners. The rest is eye wash.
The only good thing about Communism and Fascism is that they seem to be perpetually at war, like Al Capone and Bugs Moran. Both are gangster regimes who don’t tolerate any individual freedom. Not a dimes worth of difference.

longrifleman
April 25, 2004, 10:00 AM
Communism and fascism aren't opposite ends of the political spectrum, they are close neighbors. The press and the govt. have run one of the most successful propaganda ops in history to confuse us into thinking they are opposites. The opposite end of the spectrum from both is anarchism: the absence of government.

If you look beyond the window dressing here in the US we are well on the way to a fascist system ourselves. Before the flaming starts consider: IRS-EPA-EEOC-OSHA-HUD-DEA-BATFE-FBI-to control personal behavior. For property: Endangered Species Act-Clean Water Act:wetlands-emenint domain-zoning-and I'm only getting started.

The system is being set up under the old boil the frog slowly method with way to much support by people who should know better. You can't be free unless you are willing to let other's be free. Even if you don't like what other's do with their freedom.

The truly sad part is the majority of the people are perfectly content to live under some type of totalitarian govt. as long as they aren't too inconvienced.

ThreadKiller
April 25, 2004, 10:23 AM
Both are equally bad as they are both failed economic philosophies. Neither work because both substitute centralized government planning for individual creativity. Both give rise to totalitarian societies because such schemes cannot exist any other way.

Give me the roller coaster ride of Capitalism any day.

"Capitalism is the worst system yet devised.... except for all the others." -Sir Winston Churchill

Tim

T.Stahl
April 25, 2004, 10:36 AM
Communism or fascism? Where's the difference? They are both socialists who are after your liberties, rights, money - and life if you don't obey their orders.
Put both of them in a sack and beat it with a bat, you'll always hit the right one.

Chris Rhines
April 25, 2004, 11:03 AM
Communism and Fascism are two words for the same thing.

- Chris

veloce851
April 25, 2004, 11:07 AM
Give me liberty or give me death.

DMK
April 25, 2004, 11:48 AM
Communism and fascism aren't opposite ends of the political spectrum, they are close neighbors. The first group is known as the Democrats, the second group is known as the Republicans. :banghead: :cuss:

7.62FullMetalJacket
April 25, 2004, 11:54 AM
Longrifleman has it about right. We are there, we just do not know it. We have been a slow-boiling frog for decades. The government already dictates much of how a business operates through regulation: EPA, OSHA, IRS, EEOC, etc.

People are also regulated in how they live: low-flow toilets, useless pesticides, "energy-saving" appliances, zoning restrictions, CCRs, traffic control, emissions laws, carpooling, mandatory schooling, etc. There are many affronteries that "seem" voluntary but are not. There are many that "seemingly" have good intentions, but they are just another device for control.

You work for nearly half the year to pay for the "public good." Businesses must hire consultants, accountants, risk managers, voo-doo clerics, etc. to divine the current intent of laws and how to comply.

As L. Neil Smith says, looking through thr prism of gun control you can see where a politician stands. You can also look through the prism of gun control and measure the status of freedom.

We don't even need to go into judicial activism where the last backstop for tyranny is located. The are compliant players.

ShaiVong
April 25, 2004, 12:03 PM
Yeah thats kind of my underlying point: They are really the same thing to those who toil under the government. Socialism rears under the banner of 'for the people/children'. Facism is basically 'for the nation' or 'for the rulers'. Either way your up poopy creek.

But what was said about the frog in boiling water is extremely apt. Thats how any kind of insanity congeals in government. Slowly over time the status quo changes progressivly until such horrors arent unthinkable anymore.

You might die before you would submit to either regime, but would your children (assuming you dont have any yet or they're infants)? Would your grandchildren? Great-grandchildren?

Social pressues and constant propiganda have a definate effect on the populace. Thats one of the reasons why this country does not elect officials on the popular vote alone: People are EASY to control. And the larger the group of people, they easier it is.

And you cant count on training your children either. How often does a kid decide to go 180 degrees from where they're parent tries to guide them? In this society kids are ingraned from birth to rebel against they're parents. They think its expected of them. Neither of my parents are gun owners, or really gun friendly. My mom is nearly a bleeding heart, though when it comes right down to it i get most of my independence from her.

In any case, i have to go before i bore everyone.

cloudkiller
April 25, 2004, 05:05 PM
On paper Communism reads better, and one could make a decent case that was was practiced as Communism in the 20th century by many of the big dictators was in fact more Fascist than anything else. Ultimately the distinction between the two is meaningless. Sadly the legacy of death brought on by Communism is one of the least discussed facts of the 20th centuries. A tragedy that the terror of the system is so overlooked by many.

In practice they are very similar. They differ in their source of legitimacy. Communism will talk about the good of "the people" facism more about the good of "the state". How people arrive at either is also rather interesting.

The United States, IMO, is more ripe for Facism. We have a lot of xenophobes/bigots who love to come up with conspiracy theories about polluting outsiders. We have a strong religious identity that is already tied to our national identity, and could easily be manipulated. We have a huge cultural chasm that could be exploited. We have an overdeveloped sense of nationhood and manifest/divine destiny that facist proponents could tap into. We also have a long history of fighting communism that is still fairly fresh, as our fight against Facism fades in the minds of younger generations. While I think the accelerating concentration of power into the hands of the government, and increasing concentration of wealth into the hands of a few people would seem ripe for class-struggle, I suspect that cultural/ethnic/nationalist scapegoating rather than social class scapegoating will become the more dominant viewpoint, at least among "middle americans"

Standing Wolf
April 25, 2004, 05:24 PM
Would you rather be beaten into submission with a baseball bat or a big ugly stick

One more reason to carry a gun.

atek3
April 25, 2004, 05:24 PM
he busted out class struggle
:D

atek3

joab
April 25, 2004, 05:29 PM
One more reason to carry a gun.
You got it.
And that sentiment got us the 2nd amendment

Soap
April 25, 2004, 06:57 PM
Communism and Fascism are two words for the same thing.

Exactly.

labgrade
April 25, 2004, 07:23 PM
"Like Jim, I choose neither. Every man has a line in the sand."

Uhm, I've heard it refered to as a range-marker .....

Treylis
April 25, 2004, 09:32 PM
Neither, myself.

Laissez-faire capitalism is the only way to go.

dustind
April 26, 2004, 01:08 AM
It is because of opinions like these that I keep comming back to The High Road.

ShaiVong
April 26, 2004, 01:12 PM
I liked this one especially:

"Like Jim, I choose neither. Every man has a line in the sand."

Uhm, I've heard it refered to as a range-marker .....

:D :evil:

I love you guys!

Joe Demko
April 26, 2004, 01:20 PM
I would rather be in Nazi Germany than Stalin's Russia.

Nazi Germany had snappier uniforms and a better standard of living for the average person (not including Jews and other targets of the Reich) WRT such things as consumer goods.
I wouldn't care to live in either one, for as I said in another thread, when you're being oppressed and/or killed it doesn't matter where the oppressors fall on the economic axis.

Sean Smith
April 26, 2004, 01:29 PM
The difference between Communism and Nazism is basically the difference between armed robbery and blackmail. In the former, the government claims ownership of everything, and shoots you if you disagree. In the latter, the government says you own everything, but tells you to give it whatever it wants, and shoots you if you disagree. It all winds up the same difference either way.

w4rma
April 26, 2004, 01:29 PM
Neither one. In fact I disagree that communism and fascism are polar opposites. Both fascism and communism are on the exact same spot on the totalitarian<->libertarian axis (totalitarian, of course). They are only opposite on the economic axis.

fascism = totalitarianism + capitalism according to Mussolini and FDR
capitalism and socialism are opposite ends of an axis.
democracy and dictatorship/monarchy are opposite ends of another axis.

A state can be totalitarian and capitalist (fascism):

“Fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.” -- Benito Mussolini

“The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism -- ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling private power.” -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

A state can be totalitarian and socialist (communism).
A state can be democratic and capitalist.
A state can be democratic and socialist.
A state can be anywhere inbetween the two axis. The U.S. has both capitalist policies and socialist policies.

Here is a list of some of the socialist ones:
socialized armed forces
socialized water
socialized police
socialized fire department
social(ized) security
medicare
road building/maintanance
public waste and water treatment
public schools

cordex
April 26, 2004, 01:34 PM
And you cant count on training your children either. How often does a kid decide to go 180 degrees from where they're parent tries to guide them? In this society kids are ingraned from birth to rebel against they're parents. They think its expected of them.
*laugh* The more things change, the more they stay the same.

As for the original question, the answer is simple. We must do what is best for the proletariat. We cannot allow the bourgeoisie to persist in applying their filthy, capitalistic choke-hold of greed on the cow-eyed Workers. We must FIGHT! We must institute the Great Collective over all men, in which every man woman and child is equal. We will fight to free everyone, even if it means killing them. Their blood will be our sacrifice to their freedom. I will lead this great revolution and be first among equals. From my Palace of Equality, I will reign above and among my brothers and lead them to victory over their oppressors. Long live Communism! May it allow little men to control every man in our quest for a bigger slice of equality from the economic pie.

edit: I'm terribly sorry, I seem to be in a rather sarcastic mood today. Of course I don't really advocate communism. Facism all the way, baby.

ShaiVong
April 26, 2004, 05:38 PM
"edit: I'm terribly sorry, I seem to be in a rather sarcastic mood today. Of course I don't really advocate communism. Facism all the way, baby."

haha ! :D

Gordon Fink
April 26, 2004, 06:28 PM
Once again, we are confusing communism with socialism. To answer the question as framed, however …

I would choose communism over fascism.

Why? Because communism is merely anarchy without private property. By contrast, fascism is tyranny with private property. I would prefer to avoid tyranny, even though I do like private property.

That said, true communism is not possible—at least no more so than anarcho-capitalism. Such a system is unstable. For communism to work, human motivations would have to be reprogrammed in some fashion.

A much tougher and more interesting choice would be between socialism (tyranny without private property) and fascism (tyranny with private property). Perhaps that is what ShaiVong really meant to ask.

~G. Fink

killermarmot
April 26, 2004, 07:37 PM
I'm of the thinking that neither is acceptable and I'll die before I tolerate either. And when it gets down to the implementation of and reality of both I don't think they're all that diferent, one becomes the other, and they both have the same result. One man tells everyone else what they can and can't do.

The day someone announces themselves emperor of the US I hope all they'll here is magazines loading and slides racking. And one chick in the back screaming F$%^ You!:cuss: :evil:

labgrade
April 27, 2004, 02:13 PM
ShaiVong,

Wish I could have marked it as my own, but alas, it's from the owner of this site.

I cannot take any credit other than to repeat it - worthy as it is.

iapetus
April 27, 2004, 04:23 PM
One aspect that hasn't been considerd:

Facist regiems seem more prone to attacking countries they can't beat, and ending up being overthrown as a result (either by the victor, or by their own citizens).

That in turn may mean that the chance each day you'll get killed is higher (either by being conscripted into the attacking army, or getting hit by the retaliation), but the regiem won't last as long, and if you don't die you might out live it.

Whereas Communist regiems seem to last a lot longer (e.g 1917-1990s for USSR, vs 33-45 for the Nazis), so even if they don't kill you (and they''ll have longer to do it in), you might well never live to see freedom.


Overall, though, I think it depends more on the particular regiem or its dictator, than its political ideology. Some are just more vicious than others. I think it would be better under Mussolini than Stalin, but better under Castro than Hitler. And Pol Pot was probably the worst of all for the average individual.

WingZero
April 27, 2004, 04:56 PM
Facism if I get to be in charge....:D
If not, then I die fighting.

ShaiVong
April 27, 2004, 08:32 PM
Has anyone here ever seen "The Killing Fields"? I think thats one of the things that tipped me from Communism to Facism.

Like somebody said above.. If you can stay alive, you might outlive facism; and the living conditions are generally better.


In either case, when I'm King, ill be sure to take good care of you guys. :evil: ;)

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