[gander]

need a little ccw advice
I will be applying for ccw soon. My concern:here in ohio any leo will see my ccw status on the leeds system as soon as he enters my license. Apparently in many localities it is sop to disarm a ccw holder for the officers "comfort and safety". Most of us I'm sure will disagree. I am not looking for opinions from either ccws or leos. Opinions arent't going to help me when its my traffic stop. So any traffic lawyers or similar specialists feel free to post. Assuming a minor traffic violation, I am quiet, polite, and simply refuse the officers request to surrender my weapon. The officer then orders me out of the vehicle. Can I still refuse? If not, can I call my attorney before exiting the vehicle.

[grampster]

Why would you want to make a mountain out of a molehill?

[gander]

its a simple matter of wanting to exercise my civil rights without being treated like a criminal. Doesn't seem much to ask.

[GigaBuist]

Oddly enough, I'm not opposed to being disarmed during a legal stop by a police officer. You'll hear me propose arguments that even VIOLENT felons should have the RKBA... but I don't see why we have the hooplah here about being disarmed by a police officer.

Anybody that attempts to disarm me is doing so for only one reason: What they're abou to do next might really tick me off. Unfortunately, if you're legally pulled over you've probably broken some minor law and what they do next will probably tick you off: ticket you. I'm OK with this though. You're in a confrontation with the police officer and they should be given time to do their job before you re-arm yourself.

Besides, HE is still armed. I don't know about you but I don't feel unsafe with an armed police officer by my side. I'd feel safer if I was armed myself, but a cop with a gun is a reasonable line of defense. It's all that some people ever rely on even.

I don't think it should be legal to disam a CCW holder either... nor would I see any purpose to it if I was an officer of the law myself. We're talking about a group of people that is so far removed from the likelyhood of comitting a crime with a firearm (a real crime, not some pithy firearms violation) that it's reasonable to want them armed even during a stop.

[another okie]

If you have a CCW you assume an extra burden to be safe, to be law-abiding, and to avoid trouble. Drive carefully and obey the speed limit, which you should do anyway, and is especially important if you have a CCW. Maintain your car, which is common sense. Pay attention to the road, not to the cell phone or the CD player. If you do those things the chances of being stopped are almost nil.

Don't say, "I have a gun." Say: "I have a carry permit and I am carrying. How do you want me to proceed?"

You cannot refuse the officer's request. If you try you are very likely to find a pistol pointed at your ear.

If you think you are likely to be stopped, you might consider putting your carry gun in the glove box or a range bag, so the officer can retrieve it without making you assume the position.

Another suggestion if you think you are likely to be stopped is that you might consider carrying without one in the chamber. This makes it much less likely that the officer will accidentally shoot you or someone else or himself while securing the gun. Some police officers are familiar with all types of guns, many are not.

It is stupid and ridiculous and unnecessary for an officer to disarm you, but if he wants to there's nothing you can do about it.

[George S.]

Is this SOP throughout the state?? Or just some cities or countys? Are there specific municipal codes or ordinances that make this a law? Guess this sounds a bit weird to me as in my state (WA) I don't not even have to inform an LEO that I am carrying. I only have to display the permit when I do carry and am asked for it.

What would an LEO do if you are stopped, he runs your license info, finds out you are a CCW holder and on that particular day you are NOT carrying your weapon? Will the officer believe you or would you be subject to a search of your person and vehicle? A scenario like that sounds more like a unreasonable search to me.

I am all for the safety of the LEO, but IMHO, there needs to be a certain amount of trust and common sense on both individuals parts. I probably would not have a problem leaving my carry gun in the car if I was asked to get out of the car. Even placing it on the roof or hood or wherever might be OK as long as the LEO did not unload it or place in his custody. But this assumes a level of courtesy and professionalism on the part of the LEO and an understanding that I would be able to retrieve my weapon immediately after an ID check or when the LEO is done with his business.


Hopefully you won't be stopped for a traffic violation :D

[Firethorn]

Not quite on target, but

I had a co-worker try to say that 'it's standard procedure to handcuff you if your carrying before disarming you'. When I stated that they don't do that. He said that the cops were violating procedure and weren't being safe. He then described a handcuffing procedure that would stick my hand, with only one cuff on, right next to my gun. I asked how sticking a 'possibly violent' person's hand right next to his gun was a smart idea, and he just kept on how they have to handcuff you first.

:confused:

Haven't had a chance to ask one of the three former LEO people in my shop to describe the true story to him. I think the standard procedure is that you show them the permit, and they may or may not have you surrender the weapon while they're working with you. Of course, I've had people try to tell me that HP ammo is illegal (in North Dakota, and Wal-Mart stocks it), that concealed carry is illegal (then what am I doing with a permit?), and other misconceptions. :banghead:

[Trebor]

Police Officers are allowed a HUGE degree of lattitude in how they intereact with the public for "officer safety" reasons. I'm not a lawyer, but I can tell you right now that if you that if you refuse the officers request to give up your weapon, he's either going to pull you through the window bodily or draw his own weapon and order you out of the car at gunpoint.

Is this legal? I can't say for sure, as I'm not an attorney, but after reading reports of recent Supreme Cout decisions regarding what officers can, and can't, do when intereacting with the public, I tend to believe that the officer's actions would be found to be justified by any procedural or legal review after the fact.

If you actually do refuse to give up your weapon, and then refuse to get out of the car, you'll just be placing yourself in a potentially dangerous situation and possibly face criminal charges later.

As far as calling your attorney before exiting the vehicle. What makes you think you have the right to talk to an attorney on-demand, before complying with an officer's orders at the scene?

The attorney who teaches my CCW classes in Michigan tells my students "Never argue with the officer at the side of the road." If he's wrong on a point of law, you can win later, but at that moment, there is no way for you to win.


One last thought: You know, you really should find an attorney conversant with Ohio law and ask him your question. An web board is really not the best place to go for this kind of info.

[thefitzvh]

This is a touchy subject for me, especially after recent threads, but...

If an officer pulls you over, and he asks you to disarm, I'd say there's not a problem there...

If he forcibly disarms you without good cause, that's bad.

But, as far as I'm concerned, if an officer asks me to disarm, then I'll oblige. It makes him feel safer, and a nervous cop is a bad thing. I'm all about making their jobs easier if possible, so long as they're being decent.

James

[Leadbutt]

What ever you do,please be very carefull when handing over the firearm, my department has a SOP, in place now that forbids the removeal of said weapon until, we can articulate in the report, of Officer's fear for life are,a felony was incoming, we had an Officer take a weapon and fired it before it was out the window,, luckly the round hit nothing but dashboard..

And please what ever you do, don't atempted to make it safe, last stop I made, I knew he had a CCW, and asked if he was carring that day, he said yes, and before I could say any thing else, he pulled it out, drop the mag and racked the slide, as the slide went home my SIG was in his ear. Once the pucker factor dropped a little, he pointed out the mag on the floor board.

[FedDC]

Didn't we already have this discussion;) Seriously though, on the side of the road, the Officers orders need to be followed. If there is a problem, you can sort it out later in court. Nobody wants to escalate a traffic stop into a gunfight and the best thing to do is simply comply. Nobody is going to confiscate a legally owned and carried gun. What the Ofc may do is ask the driver to step out and then take the gun and place it (unloaded) in the driver's trunk, then put the driver back in the car and complete the stop. To refuse the order to step out would be treated just like refusing any other order (keep your hands on the wheel etc.) which means that one way or another the driver has to comply. I would guess that if the driver just flat out refused to comply, the compliance would be gained through an escalation of force brought about by the drivers refusal to comply. As I said in another thread, orders from a Police Officer in the performance of his duties are not a request and it is not a negotiation. I try to treat everyone as politely as they will let me treat them, but at the end of the day I have a job to do and unfortunately some people want to fight the police, so they resist and escalate the situation.

[Andrew Rothman]

In new CCW states, expect some law enforcement paranoia for the first year or so. Do what the nice ossifer says, and if you later have a claim, make it in court.

I think that you will find that most officers have their heads screwed on straight about this. Only a few will initially overreact to the idea of armed, law-abiding citizens.

And even those few will "get it" sooner than you think.

I was pulled over last month by a Minneapolis traffic enforcement officer at what was clearly a speed trap. Grrrr...

Minnesota had only had shall-issue for ten months.

The officer went through the usual do-you-know-how-fast-you-were-going speech, then asked for my license.

Before I reached for my wallet, I said that I had a permit for carry. He asked if I was carrying. I said I was. He said, "That's fine."

My hand went right past the pistol to the wallet. The officer wasn't even tense; his hand was not near his gun.

I guess I don't look very threatening. He didn't even ask to see the permit.

Yes, disarming you is stupid and wrong. But, one, it won't happen often, and two, you don't fight tickets or ANYTHING else at the side of a roadway -- you do it in a courtroom.

[rayra]

its a simple matter of wanting to exercise my civil rights without being treated like a criminal. Doesn't seem much to ask. Then do so politically, via correspondence with you local and state's attorney's office and law enforcement depts, and you local city councils.

The 'mountain out of a molehill' analogy is very apt. Choosing to 'exercise your rights' 'in the trenches' as it were is the WRONG place to START. Needlessly escalating a situation with a LEO will garner additional charges, regardless of how 'right' you were to start with.

It's entirely the wrong approach.

[TCD]

The attorney who teaches my CCW classes in Michigan tells my students "Never argue with the officer at the side of the road." If he's wrong on a point of law, you can win later, but at that moment, there is no way for you to win.

yup

I don't have a handgun yet, but when I do I'll CCW when I'm at home.

If the officer wants my firearm, great more power to him. I'm already in the red if I get pulled over. Saying no, you can't have my pistol is just stupid IMO.

EDIT: I won't be happy about giving my weapon up, but under the circumstances, I'll put up with it.

However, I would talk to a good attorney in your state/ city and go over the specifics.

[labgrade]

Leadbutt,

What ever you do, please be very carefull when handing over the firearm, ..... luckly (sic) the round hit nothing but (sic) dashboard."[/I]

So much for "officer safety." & how did that make either you, or the owner/essential operator (who very likely knew much more about the safe handling of said firearm) more safe than you?'

"And please what ever you do, don't atempted (sic) to make it safe, last stop I made, I knew he had a CCW, and asked if he was carring (sic) that day, he said yes, and before I could say any thing else, he pulled it out, drop (sic) e (sic)- the mag and racked the slide, as the slide went home my SIG was in his ear. Once the pucker factor dropped a little, he pointed out the mag on the floor board."

Yes, & good grief! Why in Heaven's name would you want to have a legal & absolutely safe-handling person make the firearm safe prior to your admittedly firing a round through the perp's" dashboard through your own, or fellow officer's, lack of proper firearms handling skills!?

[B}but still your SIG was pointed at his ear![/B] well after he made safe his hadgun & presented it to you as safe.

God grief! the man had diabled his handgun.

Let alone your astute verbal obseratons regards the actual account of your observations. I would have been written up as to grammar AND improper use of the English language. There is such a standard for the proper use in legal nomclature for proper filing, no?

Not to mwntion that a round was dischaged through an innnocent's dashboard!

Any legal-beagle would have made hash out of your (buddy's) disposition.

God forbid you'd have to shoot a "perp" due to your own lack of skill-sets!

I still have a very astute question, which has never been answered = ergo:

& here it is:

I'm stopped for some traffic infraction. I politely stop & inform the kindy & polite officer that I have a CCW permit & and am execizing that option currently.

He requests that I disarm, & I agree, but I'm carrying a BHP, cocked & locked in an IWB holster.

How does he obtain my compliance?

Do I hand over a C&L'd single action, or do I first clear mag & then unchamber? Or, do I hand over a handgun he is likely unfamiliar with various fairearms types & risk an accidental, discharge/ND? ... Or, if a "bad guy," i just shoot him to death with a few double-taps? Or, does the aleo, as a matter of course hand-cuff me & further disarm me?

I'm still waiting the "basic LEO response" to this thread.

The answers will be very telling. Will you trust your average CCW-holder, law-abidning citizen, or will you accept sniping as your recourse to your "duties."

You I]Do{/I] get to choose as an end result.

[Atticus]

"Assuming a minor traffic violation, I am quiet, polite, and simply refuse the officers request to surrender my weapon. The officer then orders me out of the vehicle. Can I still refuse? If not, can I call my attorney before exiting the vehicle."


Several things will happen - none of them good. At the very least , you will be arrested, and you will lose your CCW permit.

[TCD]

Not to mwntion that a round was dischaged through an innnocent's dashboard!

hey spelling/ grammar nazi, layoff

Also, in nopoint is his post did he say he fired a round into the dash(which you then put in your post)

And if you think that a proper way to handle yourself in a stop is to pull your pistol without the officer's permission, then I have zero sympathy when that results in an officer shooting.

Furthermore, your assumptions about his, and the ccwer gun handling abilities is fairly short sighted.




Anyways, I personally thing the best way to about it is ask the cop
"what would you like me to do?"

if we wants to disarm,

"I'm notifying the officer that the handgun is loaded(and in the case of a 1911 cocked and locked) how do you want to proceed"

Sudden movements around an officer at a stop is dumb. Sudden movements when CCW is involved is a darwin case waiting to happen.

[Steve in PA]

The basic LEO response is, no I don't disarm a CCW during a "normal" traffic stop. I think in my 6 years of being a LEO I've had 3-4 people tell me they had a CCW and were carrying. In PA it is not a requirement to let the LEO know you are carrying. The person was told to keep his hands in plain view, etc......and we'll take care of business and both be on our way.

I belong to a LEO only mailing list and this topic (disarming CCW's) was tossed around quite a bit. I think it ran about 60-40% for not disarming. The most prevelant question was, why disarm? Alot is going to depend on where you and the LEO are, NY City, LA, etc.

You can argue all you want, but courts are not going to rule against a LEO in these cases. Yes, if you are a legally carrying CCW, chances are that you are truely a "good guy".........but just as there is nothing such as a "normal" traffic stop, there is nothing such as a "normal" driver.

[sturmruger]

Good reply Steve.

[HBK]

Personally, I'm all for LEO safety. The one thing I would worry about in this situation is waht if you get an LEO with a huge ego on a power trip? I knew a guy in high school that was a jerk, kind of had the whole Napoleonic conflict going on (short man's syndrome). He became an LEO and the power totally went to his head. I would be worried about how he would want to disarm a CCW holder, but what can you do? I guess we should just follow the officer's instructions and hope for the best, but if he gives us instructions that are unsafe, what then?

[TheBluesMan]

gander,

In Ohio it is a FELONY to touch or attempt to touch your handgun while pulled over at a traffic stop. When you are in your car, you must carry your handgun in one of the following ways if it is loaded:

1. In a holster, on your person, in plain sight. (all at the same time)
2. In a locked glove box.
3. In a locked case or box that is in plain sight.

It is also a law in Ohio that you MUST obey all LAWFUL orders from the police officer. HINT: The side of the road isn't the place to get into an argument over what is and isn't a lawful order.

Another Okie correctly pointed out that you shouldn't say "I have a gun" when you get pulled over.

Follow these instructions and things should go well for you:
When you see the lights and/or hear the siren, put on your right turn signal. Wave to the officer to let him know you see him. Pull as far to the right as safely possible and stop.

If you have dark tinted rear windows, roll them down. If it is night-time, turn on your interior lights too.

Roll down your window and place your hands at the top of your steering wheel. Keep them there unless directed to do otherwise by the officer.

When the officer arrives, (unless he lawfully orders you to do something different) say: "I have a carry permit and I am/am not carrying. How do you want me to proceed?"

Follow his or her instructions exactly.

If he asks you for your license, tell him where it is before you reach for it.

You may not touch your gun during the stop unless directed to do so by the officer.
In Ohio, you must carry your CCW card and another government-issued form of photo ID.

If your SO/friend/child ever drives your car and doesn't have a CCW, they should immediately tell the officer that they are not a CCW holder and that the car belongs to their SO/friend/parent. The police *will* know, before they even exit their cruiser, that the car is registered to a CCW holder.

HTH! :)

-Dave

[Gordon Fink]

its a simple matter of wanting to exercise my civil rights without being treated like a criminal.

Then don’t get the permit.

~G. Fink

[ny32182]

It is really funny when the spelling and grammer nazis have more spelling errors in their own post than anyone would care to count.

Anyhow, standard procedure in SC is that you must inform the officer that you are a permit holder. I don't know if the cops will know before getting out of their car or not.

I don't see how giving your gun to the officer for the duration of the stop is violating anyone's rights. You know thats the law (if it is in your state) before getting your permit; its just part of the deal. In SC, it's at the officer's discresion. Not that I "want" to get pulled over of course, but I'm actually curious to see how it will pan out, as I've never been stopped while carrying. My biggest worry about giving the officer my gun, honestly, would be an AD similar to the situation above. I would definitely stress "ITS LOADED, would you like me to clear it first?".

[answerguy]

Carry a POS to give the officer.

[gyp_c2]

Well, without putting words in anyones mouth...let me just say that they are, I think, referring to the bill of rights, which says that it's your "right" to keep and bear arms...and that's the 2nd, I think the 4th says it's your "right" to not be unlawfully searched...it's this silly little thing of how the laws are applied that causes the trouble. Some police think they have the "right" to do what they "think" makes a scene safe...because that's what they were taught. However...that doesn't mean you can "lawfully" disarm someone...The distinction is up for grabs in the battle to either honor the bill of rights or to "interpret" it...That's the way "I" see it anyway...and yes you do agree to abide by a states' statutes re: concealed carry before they issue. The real question is and has always been, do they have that "right"..."not" according to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights...as written...

...g2

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/bandit.gif

Oh yeah ps...it's not these pieces of paper that gives you the "right" these are supposed to be "God-Given Rights" and the rest is just "legal"...

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

I have no problem being disarmed by LE if requested.

In Utah the CCW is linked to the DL. Present both the CFL and DL when stopped. There is a duty to inform here.

UT LE typically will not disarm (at least not out here in Podunk). But they will ask to see what you are carrying :D

Usually lengthens the time of the stop, but I am never too busy to discuss guns. :D

[Smurfslayer]

First, if I'm on the side of the road with red and blues flashing, chances are I am either broken down and aid is being rendered, or, I'm being "taxed" at the barrel of a gun while the local revenue generators make society safer for terrorists...

Still, they've got a job to do, and deserve no roadside contempt that they don't earn. My driving and post traffic stop behavior won't change because I have a firearm on me - stop as is convenient, light on if dark, window down if raining, both hands on the wheel until greeted. I recite the location of d/l and reg. before moving my hands. I obtain said documents and proceed.

If I produce the permit and I'm asked for the firearm, I will clarify if they are asking me for the gun, or ordering me to surrender it. If the former, I politely decline, if the latter, I ask for the patrol sergeant to be present, or offer to render myself at the speed limit to the station and agree to exit unarmed when instructed.

That said, I think this is blown waaaaaaaaayyyy out of proportion in terms of when and how this happens. Back in '96, a coworker was detained in a somewhat similar manner - This was in VA, when shall issue was but a year and change old. he was pulled over on a revenue generating stop, produced his permit and the fun began. At gunpoint, he was ordered out, hands on car, physically disarmed by the officer, unloaded gun put on the hood. This went on for about 15 minutes until another cruiser arrived. He got a warning, the officer got a complaint filed against him and my coworker eventually got a letter of apology from the traffic patrol commander. Once the police are more accustomed to seeing the armed people, I think they also get a little better at "reading" people for when they're going to be a problem. I think your demeanor probably has a lot to do with it once the police are accustomed to the new way.
In Virginia, we're only allowed open carry in alcohol serving restaurants, and I routinely do so, often running into Fairfax officers. I've never gotten any snide comments, disapproving behavior, undue attention or even a bad vibe. One officer kept an eye on me and my friends, but nothing out of the ordinary considering the 12 or so open carrying patrons...

I think another poster suggested contacting the local law, and I second that. Ask to talk to the patrol division, and ask directly what they want to see in the way of conduct etc... Once it's been on the books, cops will learn the good guys and know they're not a threat.

[gander]

Thank you all for your posts. Probably the most valuable post said I should consult my attorney prior. I am also putting that idea out to Freeohio and
the ofcc. Hopefully the current law which stinks, will be changed for the better, possibly at about the one year anniversary date. That would be the time to address this. So now is the time to get the idea out. My suggestion is to remove the leeds listing and the requirement that the officer be notified. I am still working on the idea that a fundamental right can be legally abrogated, for something as flimsy as the idea that ccw holder might be dangerous.

[Coronach]

Worth noting:

As this is brand-spankin new, there is no SOP for agencies in Ohio. It is completely novel. And, there is gonna be a lot of quick caselaw on many of the finer points of the law. Don't be that guy.

Check the law- you are required to obey all lawful orders of the LEO. And as has already been said, the roadside is not the place to debate the lawfulness of the order.

TheBluesMan's suggestions are spot on.

Mike

[Tom Servo]

Why I love living in Georgia:

I was stopped at a "seatbelt check" at midnight on a Friday night. I have a metal pin in my hip from a drunk driver, so I'm not all that opposed to these. A Woodstock officer approached my car, and I handed over license, insurance and permit.

Officer: You carrying?

Me: Yes, I am.

Officer: (Shines flashlight in car) Where?

Me: Right hip.

Officer: Okee Doke, do me a favor and keep your hands on the wheel. Be back in a second. (Forty seconds pass) Here ya go. Take care.