palmetto made ak?


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improperlyaged
October 22, 2015, 12:12 PM
Anyone shot the new psak 47? I have been considering buying their parts kits and assembled barrel to put together an ak but I can't find anyone who actually owns one. I would like to know about reliability, accuracy, durability, and fit and finish. Anyone got a range report? Pics would be nice too.

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Fishbed77
October 22, 2015, 05:12 PM
You should check out the forums at akfiles.com and the PSA forum @ ar15.com. Lots of user feedback at both sites.

You will find a lot of negative feedback due to a cast front trunnion (a big no-no for the AK design), misaligned trunnions, parts kits not going together well (beyond the minor fitting all AKs require), missing parts, etc.

Bottom line is a somewhat disastrous launch. This is one that was definitely under-cooked and should be avoided for the time being.

Hopefully PSA will quickly replace the cast trunnion with forged and get the QA problems out of the way. I really want to see them succeed, both because PSA is a good company to deal with in my experience, and because foreign supplies of factory-built AKs and parts kits are quickly drying up.

carbine85
October 22, 2015, 05:33 PM
I have read the reviews about the cast trunnions and canted sights. I haven't read anywhere where people are having problems with broken trunnions and the sight's can be fixed. I have also read that Palmetto's service is pretty good. I'm not to sure I would buy one given the fact there are surplus kits still available.

improperlyaged
October 22, 2015, 05:36 PM
See I haven't found any of that. I have searched "psak 47 review" and "Palmetto AK 47" and found no results.

Jackal
October 22, 2015, 06:00 PM
Has PSA ever had a smooth launch of ANY new product? Dont get me wrong, I like and endorse PSA, but their new product launch's are rough to say the least...

Fishbed77
October 22, 2015, 09:31 PM
I have read the reviews about the cast trunnions and canted sights. I haven't read anywhere where people are having problems with broken trunnions and the sight's can be fixed. I have also read that Palmetto's service is pretty good.

Ask yourself this: Is it not better to have done things right the first time, so you don't have to depend on a warranty? A broken rifle with a great warranty is worth nothing if it breaks when you need it.

The AKM forged trunnion design has been tested in all temperatures and all environments. It is a known quality that no one would have questioned. I seriously doubt PSA has done this level of testing (in cold and hot environments) with their cast trunnions. All it takes is a small undetectable void to turn a cast trunnion into a hand grenade. I.O. can show you how that works.

Fishbed77
October 22, 2015, 09:36 PM
See I haven't found any of that. I have searched "psak 47 review" and "Palmetto AK 47" and found no results.

Go to the "AK-47" forum on akfiles.com. Quite a few threads there with the user feedback you seek.

NWcityguy2
October 23, 2015, 01:39 AM
There are and were lots of things that started as unacceptable cost cutting changes but have now become accepted. I'm not going to make a list, but it wouldn't be hard. I've read a few threads about cast trunnions on akfiles and I'll be the first to say that I'm not convinced, at least with what I have read. The cliff notes version is lots of talk about military contracts and military use, without much talk about civilian uses.

I will say this though. If casting a trunnion is a budget option, then it needs to be on a budget gun. Right now the PSAK-47, launch issues aside, is priced higher than the features suggest.

Quiet
October 23, 2015, 07:35 AM
Cast trunnions are being used in all US made AK style firearms that are priced under $1000...

Century Arms C39
Century Arms C39V2
Century Arms RAS47
IO Inc AKM247
Kalashnikov USA US132
Palmetto State Armory PSAK47

mshootnit
October 23, 2015, 08:44 AM
I also noticed the carrier groove for the bolt is machined (cast?) shallower than all my com bloc AKs. No thanks I'll stick with the Bulgarian and Russian rifles. I wouldnt buy a Russian AR though...

NWcityguy2
October 23, 2015, 09:56 AM
Cast trunnions are being used in all US made AK style firearms that are priced under $1000...

Century Arms C39
Century Arms C39V2
Century Arms RAS47
IO Inc AKM247
Palmetto State Armory PSAK47

So basically, the use of a cast trunnion is being taken out of context when people only mention the IO and PSA as having them.

Jackal
October 23, 2015, 11:08 AM
The cost saving measures of modern rifles are the reason I suggest folks look for a good older Chinese AK like a Mak or NHM.

improperlyaged
October 23, 2015, 11:39 AM
I won't ever own a rifle that uses cast parts where there is high pressure. The trunnion takes some serious abuse and I think that part needs to be forged.

HankC
October 23, 2015, 04:03 PM
So basically, the use of a cast trunnion is being taken out of context when people only mention the IO and PSA as having them.
Highly possible, they are made by the same source. IO AK only sell for $500 and folks still don't want to buy them.

carbine85
October 23, 2015, 04:44 PM
Does Ruger still use investment castings in their manufacturing?
I think Mini 14 receivers are cast. My point is casted parts can be a reliable alternative to the more expensive forged steel.
It's the barrel of the AK that takes most of the force.

Quiet
October 24, 2015, 07:38 AM
Kalashnikov USA is using cast trunnions on the AK style firearms they are making.

The AK style firearms they converted from imported Saiga firearms have forged trunnions.

Fishbed77
October 26, 2015, 12:58 PM
Cast trunnions are being used in all US made AK style firearms that are priced under $1000...

Century Arms C39
Century Arms C39V2
Century Arms RAS47
IO Inc AKM247
Kalashnikov USA US132
Palmetto State Armory PSAK47

The fact that you see IO in that list should tell you everything you need to know.

Bottom line is that NO AKs ever manufactured for military use have ever used a cast trunnion. Kalashnikov didn't use cast trunnions. Zastava didn't, Cugir didn't. Norinco didn't. Arsenal Bulgaria didn't, East Germany didn't, Egypt didn't, Hungary didn't, Iraq didn't, Poland didn't. They all use forged trunnions.

All of those countries have access to modern metallurgy and casting technology. The Russians have used cast gas blocks, front sights, and other low-stress parts since the early '70s.

Guess what they still don't do? Use cast barrel trunnions.

NWcityguy2
October 26, 2015, 01:42 PM
None of those AKs are being sold or used for military use. My 1911 doesn't have a forged frame, but has 40k rounds through it. One of my ARs doesn't have a chrome lined barrel, but I just finished 3rd out of 19 at a 3-gun this weekend. Civilians have different needs than the military does.

Those of us who have a practical use for our rifles tend to have a better grasp on what we actually need. The whole "different from the way it is issued" doesn't carry much weight with us. That is why hunters, competitive shooters and LE generally know what they need, while tactical shooters are constantly lost in a wash of marketing forces and online opinion makers. One group has a practical purpose that they can carry out in real life while the other group does not.

Fishbed77
October 26, 2015, 05:06 PM
None of those AKs are being sold or used for military use. My 1911 doesn't have a forged frame, but has 40k rounds through it. One of my ARs doesn't have a chrome lined barrel, but I just finished 3rd out of 19 at a 3-gun this weekend. Civilians have different needs than the military does.

Those of us who have a practical use for our rifles tend to have a better grasp on what we actually need. The whole "different from the way it is issued" doesn't carry much weight with us. That is why hunters, competitive shooters and LE generally know what they need, while tactical shooters are constantly lost in a wash of marketing forces and online opinion makers. One group has a practical purpose that they can carry out in real life while the other group does not

I believe you missed the point.

The AK front trunnion is not designed to be a cast piece, and, unlike many of the parts, say, Ruger casts on may of its products, is subject to quite a bit of stress. For example, as good as Ruger is at casting, note that it does not cast the slide of its 1911. While the frame (which on a 1911 is subject to very low stresses) is cast, that part is still forged.

Again, the whole issue stems from the presence of any undetectable internal voids in the casting. Any one example may be just fine. The problem is that you have no way of knowing. Again - not a big deal on part with no/low stresses.

The AK front trunnion is a different story entirely.

Likewise, having chrome lining versus no chrome lining on an AR barrel is irrelevant to the discussion. An AR without chrome lining is still safe to operate. The same has not been proven of an AK with a cast front trunnion.

NWcityguy2
October 26, 2015, 05:47 PM
Actual results from actual usage is the test. That is the point. In a few years these questions will be answered, not by debating it online.

Fishbed77
October 27, 2015, 07:49 PM
Actual results from actual usage is the test. That is the point. In a few years these questions will be answered, not by debating it online.

And yet you see gun companies putting untested products on the market and depending on uninformed consumers to do the testing for them.

By the way - I'm not a PSA basher. I own 4 of their AR-15s and have nothing but praise for those rifles, and have spent thousands at their online and brick & mortar stores. I just really want them to do this AK the right way, and I really want them to succeed in offering a quality American-made AK.

NWcityguy2
October 27, 2015, 08:56 PM
And yet you see gun companies putting untested products on the market and depending on uninformed consumers to do the testing for them.

Century says they have shot their RAS-47 test samples for 5,000 rounds. PSA says it has shot it's PSAK-47 for 10,000 rounds. So there obviously has been some testing. On what basis are so saying that these products, without reserve, are untested?

M-Cameron
October 27, 2015, 09:47 PM
I won't ever own a rifle that uses cast parts where there is high pressure. The trunnion takes some serious abuse and I think that part needs to be forged.


the trunnion isnt handling any pressure, all the pressure is being supported by the barrel.....all the trunnion does is hold the barrel in place, its not taking any abuse at all..

there is no reason why you cant use a cast part there

improperlyaged
October 28, 2015, 02:25 PM
the trunnion isnt handling any pressure, all the pressure is being supported by the barrel.....all the trunnion does is hold the barrel in place, its not taking any abuse at all..

there is no reason why you cant use a cast part there

Yeah I am certain that you are completely wrong. The front trunnion is what the bolt locks into when the cartridge is being fired.
Plus

http://www.akoperatorsunionlocal4774.com/2015/10/ak-cast-trunnion-fail-on-ras47-boom/

yugorpk
October 28, 2015, 03:12 PM
Why would they use domestically produced trunnions at all? Its an easy gun to get 922r qualified without changing the trunnion.

HOOfan_1
October 28, 2015, 03:17 PM
Why would they use domestically produced trunnions at all? Its an easy gun to get 922r qualified without changing the trunnion.

Because they are marketing them as 100% US made.

grter
October 28, 2015, 03:29 PM
This is a prime example of stingy penny pinching stooges (fearful stooges with no backbone to support quality against the advice of people who are not professional arms makers) messing up an excellent design to save a few bucks while charging good money for substandard spec garbage.

It reminds me of Remingtons botched up R51. Yes it's an extreme example but really the same principle only it was so bad it couldn't fool people long enough to rip off the majority of buyers.

If I want a cheaply made civilian rifle that is what I will buy, and save a good bit of money. I think high point makes one great pistol caliber carbine for the money.

If I pay good money for somthing like an AK, more than the rest of the world pays for a superb high standard military grade full auto real AK I better get something good.

Until people start sending a message by not buying crap these cheapskates will keep the snake oil pitch rolling as long as buyers put up with it and keep throwing their money away.

Roll all the snake oil you want my way I won't buy it. I am sure all the gun grabbers are happy now.

carbine85
October 28, 2015, 05:00 PM
All things considered you would think someone could throw some steel on a Haas machine and just make them from billet.
Robski on youtube is reporting a broken lug on a cast trunnion. It's posted on the akfiles.com

Kiln
October 28, 2015, 08:15 PM
It is worth noting that IO's shoddy rep comes from their older guns, which were imported parts kits built on US receivers. I own an older one and it still works great buuuuut...my brother bought a new one a few months back and it looks like it is built much better all around. Their US made guns look and feel like better quality firearms. They are also probably the only AK maker I can think of that warranties their guns for life.

M-Cameron
October 28, 2015, 10:10 PM
All things considered you would think someone could throw some steel on a Haas machine and just make them from billet.


im sure they could........but then of course your AK would cost +$300 more.......

grter
October 29, 2015, 06:16 PM
I doubt it would raise the price to 300.00 more. It's obviously a cheapskate cost cutting move to line someones pocket with the extra money skimmed.

I don't know what kind of crack someone is on if they think these are better or even close to as good as Russian mil spec AKs.

NWcityguy2
October 29, 2015, 07:20 PM
All things considered you would think someone could throw some steel on a Haas machine and just make them from billet.
Robski on youtube is reporting a broken lug on a cast trunnion. It's posted on the akfiles.com

The thread on akfiles is toast. Any talk of a test went away after Atlantic Firearms revealed that one of their Polish AKs had a cast trunnion (made in Poland mind you) and then yesterday the thread was locked. Don't bite the hand that feeds...

HOOfan_1
October 29, 2015, 07:53 PM
I don't know what kind of crack someone is on if they think these are better or even close to as good as Russian mil spec AKs.

Is that something that is often claimed? Russian mil spec AKs sell for $900+ new here. The RAS47 is selling for under $600 and the PSA AK is selling for under $800.

American labor costs more than Eastern European labor, I am not sure that there is much price gouging at the prices the RAS47 or PSA AK are selling for.

NWcityguy2
October 29, 2015, 08:46 PM
I don't know what kind of crack someone is on if they think these are better or even close to as good as Russian mil spec AKs.

The further people get away from having some practical application for a gun, the more comments like these matter. Which gun is better at shooting a few hundred rounds a year? Which gun is better at hog or deer hunting? Which gun leaves more money left over for magazines and ammo? Which gun is better for high round count training? Which gun would perform better in a realistic, low round count, self defense scenario? All of those realistic questions have one or more right answers, and they are not all the same.

However, which gun is better for debating online with other people? Well, the answer to that is obvious... The more I shoot, the more I realize that people trying to prove black and white points online aren't even talking about shooting.

HGM22
October 29, 2015, 10:59 PM
I for one don't care if the gun is 100% US-made or not, but questionable parts are a no-go at this price. For $700 why not get a DDI or WASR and have no questions? I don't do beta testing out of my wallet.

119er
October 30, 2015, 12:31 AM
I don't really have a dog in this fight as I haven't gotten around to AK's yet. But, my M1A has a cast receiver and it does just fine along with the others made over the last decades. It handles the the direct forces of the bolt from a higher pressure cartridge. Granted, these are two different designs and I am not an engineer that can calculate the stresses on both, but surely a qualified engineer was involved in the process of making these trunnions. Of course using a "lesser" part is for saving costs if it can be done with reasonable reliability and safety factor. This is the same reason my M1A costs $1500 vs. a forged receiver'd M14 clone for $3000. Materials technologies and manufacturing techniques are improving all the time, so I guess that time will tell on these. I have been trying to wade into the AK world and it is issues and discussions like these that turn me off on them. It seems like the AK frontier, and I'll just wait to see who comes out on top eventually.

McAngus
October 30, 2015, 10:55 AM
I strongly urge people NOT to go with US AKs at the moment. If they were cheaper than imported ones than I say go with the risk but doesn't make sense that they are more expensive for a equal imported AK, there is no history to back up US AKs.

grter
October 30, 2015, 06:18 PM
The further people get away from having some practical application for a gun, the more comments like these matter. Which gun is better at shooting a few hundred rounds a year? Which gun is better at hog or deer hunting? Which gun leaves more money left over for magazines and ammo? Which gun is better for high round count training? Which gun would perform better in a realistic, low round count, self defense scenario? All of those realistic questions have one or more right answers, and they are not all the same.

However, which gun is better for debating online with other people? Well, the answer to that is obvious... The more I shoot, the more I realize that people trying to prove black and white points online aren't even talking about shooting.
I would normally agree with you however I do not like the lack of candor as to what these items really are and where the parts come from.

I do not like generic statements like it's good enough for civilians because they will never use it the way the military will and there is simply no need for the higher quality standards.

This is not an appropriate answer for good questions.

NWcityguy2
October 30, 2015, 08:23 PM
There are AKs built to higher standards which are being sold for a higher price.

But once again, I am talking about practical applications and not generalizations.

osprey176
October 31, 2015, 02:43 AM
As far as the remark about PSA's AK being untested,this is completely false. Their design team often shoots at the same range I do. I have been to the range twice while they were testing the new AK. Last time I spoke with them,a couple weeks before the rollout,the round count was somewhere around 15,000 rounds with no major failures. A couple springs in early testing,and a red dot sight were the only things they told me about failing.I spoke to them several times during the range visits. The shooting they did was totally rapid fire,with four guys loading and one guy shooting. Mag dumps were a more accurate description.They used a small pallet with a four foot cubed box with a big hole cut in one side for a brass catcher. They didn't let the thing cool,and only sprayed it with CLP every hour or so to "clean" it. I'm not going to argue the finer points of AK design and construction,but I know the weapon was given a pretty brutal torture test that it handled quite well.

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