[WeThree]

Mods: If this is off topic, please remove, I posted it because I see other topics on the Iraq war going on.

http://slingblade.fccj.edu/~bfair/dontloot.wmv

(Not graphic or gory)

I'm curious about your thoughts on this. I guess I'm surprised, not sure what to think.

I take the quoted "off camera" comment with a big grain of salt, but even without it...

[mondocomputerman]

Seems a bit excessive to me. And we wonder why they hate us so much.

[Balog]

Links broken for me. Comes up as a big page o' gibberish.

[WeThree]

Try right clicking, save as.

[El Rojo]

Not good. Winning the hearts and minds. I guess that is what you get when you put 19 and 20 year olds in charge of enforcing the law with the power of a M1 tank.

[AZRickD]

Balog,

If you use Netscape 7.x like I do, I often (always) have to use Internet Explorer to play Bill Gate's Windows Media Player.

As to the actions by the US soldiers... If I were one of those Iraqis I'd be looking into joining the opposition.

The soldiers should be Court Mashalled and made an example.

Rick

[thefitzvh]

If those were soldiers under my command, they'd be on their way to Leavenworth...

that's horrible


James

[horge]

Hearts and minds all right. :rolleyes:

I feel terribly for the brave, outstanding coalition warriors out there in Iraq, doing real fighting, while idiots like that tank crew keep recruiting more enemy troops for the Shia rebels, the new Fedayeen, and al-Qayyida...

on US taxpayer dime, at that.



:barf: :barf: :barf:

[Balog]

I've got no sound on my computer, can I get a transcript?

[Boats]

Their Berettas worked just fine. I half expected them to fly apart or not work at all given all of the crap I read about them here. :evil:

Those guys should have their tank taken away and be forced to walk their beat.

[wasrjoe]

And they crushed the wood, on top of it all. :confused:

[artherd]

OK, yes, granted, not a very smart thing to do. At all. Then again, isn't the normal penalty still to have one's hand cut off? They got off light, culturally speaking.

Am I the only one who thought it was damned funny?

Asside from being very stupid of course.


Of course, maybe not quite as stupid as asking the US Army to be law enforcement...

[12-34hom]

After the car was crushed the driver told us he was a taxi driver

That was pretty lame. Maybe the should have some monster trucks sent to Iraq, that would add to the style points.

12-34hom.

[ID_shooting]

OK, this is why we need more diciplin in the Army. Confiscate to loot sure, crush the car, I can't say I would have, but then, I wasn't there. Was this the first time they were caught? 2nd? 3rd?

I do not know why they ventalated the car first other than just to waste ammo, for that I would have them in the stockade at least.

But it does bring up a good point, don't bring a taxi to a tank fight and, the tank allways has the right-of-way.

[The Scandinavian]

By their own admission, it seems that the soldiers couldn't communicate with the Iraqis; they said that they "couldn't get them to understand". Not that surprising since the soldiers were speaking English.

How can they then have establised what was going on? Maybe those Iraqis had title to the wood, or had permission to remove it?

Acting as judge, jury and then carrying out sentance without even being able to communicate with the suspects? Is that SOP? Well, who cares, right? If those Iraqis don't like cowboy justice they can just stay indoors and not do anything that might be misinterpreted, can't they?

Never mind that there's now probably dozens more Iraqis more determined than ever to resist the occupation (whoops sorry "liberation") - after all, the US has plenty more tanks where that one came from and if they aren't enough to suppress Iraqis going about their business, well, hey, there's always air strikes...

Way to go, US!

:fire:

(Edited for spelling, duh... :) )

[Joe Demko]

Obviously, the soldiers should have spoken louder. It's common knowledge that foreigners all understand English if you just shout loudly enough.

[BeLikeTrey]

don't these guys have to account for spent ammo?

[El Rojo]

In a war zone, you don't have to account for spent ammo like in peace time. You also don't have to account for car parts stuck in your tank tread either apparantly.

[Theophorus]

Incredible. I hope that those jerks were disciplined for that action. Truly a shame and disgrace to the US Military.

Theo :fire:

[HankB]

Can't say much for the soldier's pistolcraft as they ventilated the car.

As far as "winning hearts and minds" . . . well, that's pretty hard to do with Moslems when your army and country are mostly Christians and - horrors! - Jews.

If the Iraqis actually WERE looters - NONE of us KNOW for sure - they got off easy. Let looters off with a warning, and it will be taken as a sign of weakness, which breeds contempt.

If the Iraqis were NOT looters, the soldiers need to be up on charges.

[warmi]

"Way to go, US!"

Yeah, well , I gather everyone is perfect in that uniformly f*ed up land of yours.

Damn Europeans … As of late their only contribution seems to be a never ending stream of negativity and outright hatred towards everything US stands for.

With friends like that who needs enemies.

Next time around some islamic numbnut blows some sh* up in USA after having spent months planning it in some quiet neighborhood in peace-loving Europe, we should simply say “way to go Europe”.

And then blow the place up.

[Joe Demko]

Dang straight warmi! It's only a matter of killing enough people and blowing enough sh*t up before everybody is forced to see things our way.

[BigG]

There is no way to know what that little clip was. No context. Why is everybody so bent out of shape? I get it - you get your exercise by jumping to conclusions, right? :neener:

[warmi]

Golgo-13:

Forced ?

We are not forcing anyone to do anything ...

On the other hand I think we have a right not to expect backstabbing and continues schadenfreude from the people who refer to themselves as our allies.


Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that majority of Europeans automatically assume that every mistake on our part/ every misdeed perpetrated by individuals associated with US is a direct result of our wicked ways …
As I mentioned, this is not the kind of “constructive criticism” one can expect from a friend ..


PS.
As far as killing and blowing stuff up ... We still have long ways to go before we catch up with our Europeans “friends.”

[45Hoop]

Look I don't necessarily condone what is presented there....but

By their own admission, it seems that the soldiers couldn't communicate with the Iraqis; they said that they "couldn't get them to understand". Not that surprising since the soldiers were speaking English.

Doesn't anyone wonder why the camera crew who "were later told" it was a taxi didn't offer to help translate. :scrutiny: :scrutiny:

I mean they have presented this as factual so I assume they had a better interpreter available than our troops.

[Daedalus]

By their own admission, it seems that the soldiers couldn't communicate with the Iraqis; they said that they "couldn't get them to understand". Not that surprising since the soldiers were speaking English.

I interpreted "We tried to stop them from looting, they don't understand" as "We caught them looting, and slapped their wrists and told them not to do do it again, and here we caught them again so we are wrecking their car so they stop."

Shooting at the car was :rolleyes: though.

[Akurat]

Whats with the recent influx of bleeding hearts in here..

Theyre soldiers, not negotiators. The somber voice on the tape never mentioned that the guy WAS in fact using his "livelyhood"/car to loot. Instant karma. Move on.

[Sean Smith]

There is no way to know what that little clip was. No context. Why is everybody so bent out of shape? I get it - you get your exercise by jumping to conclusions, right?

Interesting... everyone here assumes that what is presented in some anonymous internet video clip is the truth, and assumes the worst about our soldiers. I recall this happening on a similar topic, everyone talked about what war criminals and so forth our troops are based on a photo posted online, only to have it revealed later on in the topic that the picture was doctored via Photoshop.

:rolleyes:

[Michigander]

If my taxi was about to be run over by a tank, I wouldn't wait until afterward to explain it to the "Frontline" reporters, I would have explained it to men getting ready to run over my taxi.

[El Rojo]

Interesting. I had gathered from the first time that the Iraqis literally didn't understand the soldiers. However, it could be the Iraqis understood the soldiers and wondered why looting was a bad thing. The soldiers might have not been able to adequately convince them not to loot anymore so they decided to crush their means of transporting the looted goods. If you watch the video again, you can hear a black soldier commenting about the child being there. At the same time you can hear someone speaking some other language in the back ground. Also soon after that part they switch angles and you can see a man in blue denim that appears to be darker skinned standing next to the soldiers, not squating like the detainees.

I guess crushing their car makes some sense, as long as the Iraqis understood the consequences of their actions. Was it harsh? Possibly. Again, things like this happen when you put 19 and 20 year olds in charge of tanks and guns. They have a simplistic, short term way of rationalizing and dealing with problems. I am not saying it is the best or worst way to do things. Just interesting and often times unfortunate for civilians who get caught in the way.

The really good question here is what are the group of Iraqis doing now? Did they associate the destruction of the car with their choice to loot? Or did they associate the destruction of their car with the American regime change? Now that we have a jobless Iraqi, did he associate in his mind his jobless state to the Americans? Does he look upon the Saddam regime as a relatively prosperous time of his life where he was better off with peace and stability (as long as you didn't piss Saddam off) where he had a job and a car? Does that now make him more likely to fight Americans because he doesn't have anything to do now? Or is he thankful the Americans just smashed his car and didn't shoot him as might have happened under the Saddam regime? These are good interesting questions. Maybe he is happy to be alive after getting caught stealing rahter than being upset with the US Military for crushing his car.

Looking back on the video clip itself, it does appear to be engineered to draw us to the conclusion that the soldiers were being harsh with the Iraqis. It would be intersting to talk to one of the soldiers.

Thank you to the guys who made me think twice about this one. I have been fighting people who make assumptions over in the 71 year old lady who was OCed and tased. I had initially assumed that the soldier meant they literally didn't understand English. I believe now that is not the case.

[Art Eatman]

I've noticed in quite a few countries around the world that there are those who don't understand English if you're saying something they don't want to hear. Their multi-lingual talents improve dramatically in the presence of newsies or lawyers.

Art

[DTLoken]

Simply ("Bleep!" inserted by Art) disgraceful.

Winning the hearts and minds, eh, looks like we have a few new resistance fighter recruits there. :barf:

Those soldiers need to be held accountable for that.

[one45auto]

All that for stealing wood?? They might have been using it for cooking or home heating. If it were jewelry, hard currency, national treasures, or some other valuable taken for personal profit that's one thing, but to hassle people over scrap wood?? :confused:

As DT remarked, we've just added several new recruits to the resistance.

Personally speaking, if I were their commanding officer they'd have to call the medic to surgically remove my boot from their hindquarters - after which time they'd be sleeping on their stomachs for weeks. :cuss:

[Gary H]

Out of context.

Moderator: PBS

Seems excessive based on the clip, but who knows what was going on. I would guess that this footage would get back to those in charge.

[WingZero]

Besides thinking to myself that I'd love to do that....

Sometimes it takes a kick in the ass to wake someone up.
If the guy didn't want to suffer any consequences for his actions, then he shouldn't be stealing and breaking the law.

Sorry if that isn't P.C. enough for any bleeders.

[WonderNine]

Looks like future JBT's to me.

Of course the soldier knows what's best for this guy's kid as well.... :rolleyes:

He'll also have a rewarding career in Law Enforcement after he gets back.

[The Scandinavian]

Wingzero: The point is, how could the soldiers establish what was going on, given that they couldn't communicate with the Iraqis?

OK, Imagine this...

1.You go to Mexico to pick up a truck load of firewood from your friends place.

2.The police show up in a tank.

3.They start jabbering at you in Spanish, which you don't understand.
(In fact they are saying "we just caught this guy stealing wood, but we can't get him to understand, so we are going to run over his truck with the tank")

4.They run over your truck with their tank...


Do you get it now???

Regards

T.S.

[morganm01]

BS

Don't buy it.

Do you seriously beleive.....with a civilian camera in THEIR FACES they are going to do that...no way. I would be astounded. I was yelled at for not wearing my hat properly in front of the journalist's on our command.

Remember the CNN clip last year (with the AK) that was COMPLETELY FARCED???

Now this is up on some website, I have already spent to much time concerned with this.....

:o

[WonderNine]

Atta boy.

Remember some completely irrelevant event from last year and then promptly stick your head in the sand.

[El Rojo]

Anyone care to comment on my points that it appears there is a translator there and you can hear someone apparently translating in the back ground as the black soldier is telling them their kid should be in school? Or are you just going to make references to JBTs and someone equate this situation to Law Enforcement based upon your personal bias?

[WonderNine]

Anyone care to comment on my points that it appears there is a translator there and you can hear someone apparently translating in the back ground as the black soldier is telling them their kid should be in school?

Yea sure. LoL.

I hear English and I hear Arabic. Other than that I couldn't tell ya. Do you know Arabic?

[atek3]

Just looks like a bunch of middle school bullys who've traded wet willies and wedgies for a big gas turbine powered tank.

atek3

[Sean Smith]

Remember some completely irrelevant event from last year and then promptly stick your head in the sand.

The fact that people have faked "news" showing soldiers doing bad things in the past is hardly irrelevant when nobody has verified the veracity of this video. Duh. :rolleyes:

Does anybody even read URLs? This video is posted on some college server, along with videos of drag-racing Hondas and jokes about NASCAR. Impressive journalistic chops there.

Last I checked, nobody has been able to corroborate this video clip is real at all. Or find the story on a single real news source. Or... :scrutiny:

The point being, soldiers misbehaving is a real possibility... but this doesn't constitute anything approaching real evidence. What some of you rubes may not realize is that it is very easy to doctor digital video clips and digital photographs, and it has been done before to create a false impression of wrongdoing by the U.S. military in the past.

Again, some of you chimps jumped on the "Our soldiers are evil Nazis" bandwagon on this forum before, over a photo that turned out to be faked. And that couldn't be what is happening now because...? :barf:

[OF]

The clip is from Frontline, a PBS magazine show.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/truth/view/

Clip #7, at the bottom (they must be slammed, the clip server is crawling).

Whether PBS 'spun' the clip by leaving out relevant info or not is unknown, but the clip is real enough.

- Gabe

[Sean Smith]

That's more like it. Having a conversation based on some file off a college student's .edu web space is just stupid. At least now we know the source isn't somebody's home PC video editing software. :scrutiny:

That being the case, that is one wierd video. I'm surprised it hasn't gotten more more media play elsewhere. It sure LOOKS bad.

:confused:

[fix]

I'm surprised it hasn't gotten more more media play elsewhere.

Considering the clear anti-war bent of the mainstream media, the fact that they haven't jumped all over it leads me to question it.

[WonderNine]

Frontline? Isn't that the show with the commie host?

[Delmar]

IMO, they ought to do the same thing to looters here at home. You know, the little scabs who show up after a hurricane or tornado? I was part of a volunteer unit going to Xenia Ohio after the 1974 tornado outbreak. The Ohio NG and reserves were all over the place, and a lot of them had to be detailed to stop the looting going on instead of helping the victims......:banghead:

[Sean Smith]

Frontline? Isn't that the show with the commie host?

You'll have to be more specific than that when asking about the media. :D

For what it's worth, common practice during time of war is to SHOOT looters.

[Zan]

YA YA! I loved it! Get them poor, cab driving, not having any money to heat thier homes, looters! Why try and explain why thier livelyhood and only means of money are being crushed by U.S. troops? Remember to vote BUSH!!!

[Michigander]

Like I said, they seemed to communicate with the newsies well enough, if we are to believe the newsies. Why not with the military personell?

[WeThree]

Just to clear it up... I work at that college, thats my web space there. It's a collection of funny and interesting internet garbage. I really hope you aren't factoring in the location/contents of that directory into your discussion. :)

[JoeSF]

This is definately bad PR for the US with Iraqi looters. If it was your home being looted you might think otherwise.
Why didnt the press interperteter say look these guys are just taking wood for this or that? He is just a cab driver...Because they wouldnt have a story! Camera crews film people drowning and dont help.

[JoeSF]

YA YA! I loved it! Get them poor, cab driving, not having any money to heat thier homes, looters! Why try and explain why thier livelyhood and only means of money are being crushed by U.S. troops? Remember to vote BUSH!!!

Zan, the current daily tempertaure in Baghdad, Iraq is a 68 low and a 97 HI. Does this mean you are voting for Kerry?

[El Rojo]

Now hear this!!! If you watch the film carefully again, it appears there was an interpreter there! When the black soldier was lecturing the Iraqi in the about his child, you can hear someone speaking something other than English in the background. The other than English is being spoken right over his English, just like an interpreter would do. You can also see a man in blue standing next to the soldiers leaning over and talking to the sitting Iraqis. If that guy was being detained too, he wouldn't be standing. If you listen to the hispanic soldier word for word, he says, "We try to stop them from lootin', they don't understand, so we'll take their car and we'll crush it." The guy might not mean they don't literally understand, he might mean they are not getting the concept, don't loot. So as a means of helping them realize there are consequences to their actions of looting, they are going to destroy their car which was being used to transport the loot.

My question is, can we find the looters and interview them today and ask them what the results of that incident were. That is a good question.

[Zan]

Zan, the current daily tempertaure in Baghdad, Iraq is a 68 low and a 97 HI. Does this mean you are voting for Kerry?

Two very good points indeed..

[Rebar]

Looters are generally shot.

In Saddam's Iraq, you'd have to watch your wife get raped before being fed through a giant shredding machine. They you would follow.

Getting your car run over? Not so bad.

[davec]

I don’t blame the soldiers, they're just kids. Their job is to operate that tank and if I had to pick anybody in the world to fight an m1a1 Abrams it would be thoes kids. Blow up t-72's at 3000 meters and I want those kids in the tank.

However they're not very good at being a civil police force of any kind, and the apparent lack of any decent level headed leadership by either an officer (who probably had bigger problems and wasn’t on scene) or an NCO (who I would hope had the maturity and insight to realize that while they may be accomplishing their mission -- stop looters -- they could of used better tactics) is the thing that troubles me.

Then again I've never been in a place where I’ve been hungry, exhausted, very wary of getting shot at by people intent on killing me, and attempting to do a job I had minimal training for.

Maybe if Rumsfield didn’t hamstring the generals by limiting the force sent in their would of been better prepared men to do that job, and I’d wager they could of done it better then the ill equipped tank crew.