Incorporating, and RKBA freedom


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dustind
April 27, 2004, 03:31 AM
I would like to buy a suppressor or two, and maybe a SBR stamp later on. I heard incorporating was a great idea because my local LEOs would not sign off, the shorter paper work wait times, and not having to send pictures and fingerprints is a bonus.

I was wondering what type of incorporation I should do, non profit, LLC, LLP, or what? Does just my so called business get incorporated, or do I? I only have plans of using this for firearm reasons right now, but I am open to using this for other opportunities.

How big of a hassle is it? What other perks or drawbacks are there to being incorporated?

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Bubbles
April 27, 2004, 06:58 AM
http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/nfa_faq.txt

Scroll down to 'Other Avenues to NFA Ownership'.

dustind
April 28, 2004, 09:04 PM
Thank you Bubbles. The paper comfirmed what I thought about the paper work. It also said to talk to a lawyer, which I may go and do.

To have a firm incorporate my buisness, plus state fee would be about $400.

Does anyone know the pro and cons from a freedom perspective of incorporating?

The_Antibubba
April 29, 2004, 12:00 AM
I've never heard of any of this-please, elaborate.





Thanks,

Bubbles
April 29, 2004, 08:44 AM
"National Firearm Act" (NFA) firearms such as full-auto machine guns, suppressors, short-barrelled rifles, short-barrelled shotguns, etc. are legal in most states. However, purchasing one is not as simple as trotting down to your local gun shop, filling out the BATF Form 4473, passing the "Instant Check", plunking down a credit card, and going home - or to your local firing range - to spend way too much money turning cartridges into brass.

Once you decide to purchase a particular NFA firearm, here's the process. For simplicity I'll assume that it's already in the posession of a Class III dealer, and there are no snags in the process.

The dealer gives you a copy of the BATF Form 4. He fills out his section, which includes his name and address, FFL #, and info on your purchase, including manufacturer, model, serial number, barrel length, etc. He will also give you two fingerprint cards.

You take your Form 4 and fingerprint cards to the Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) for your jurisdiction. In my case it's the Sheriff's office; in others it may be the town or county police, or even the state police. There they will take your fingerprints and (in theory) the CLEO will "sign off" on your Form 4.

At that point, you need to have two passport photos of yourself taken.

Then, you put the Form 4, two fingerprint card, two passport photos, and a check (for either $5 or $200 "transfer tax", depending on your purchase) into an envelope and send it to the BATF.

In anywhere from 30 days to several years (no I'm not kidding) the BATF will either approve or deny your Form 4. If it is approved it will be sent back to you with a 'tax stamp' affixed. At that point you are free to complete the transaction by going back to the dealer to retrieve your NFA firearm.

dustind encountered a problem that many NFA enthusiasts come across periodically.

Occasionally a local CLEO will refuse to sign off on a Form 4 because he or she believes that no one should own a Class III firearm even though there is nothing in the state law prohibiting it. So, the only recourse is to 'incorporate' oneself since corporations, by Federal law, do not need the CLEO signoff. Also, I don't believe that the fingerprints and photos are required either.

There are pro's and con's of incorporating. The pro's obviously include getting around local anti-gun CLEO's on a power trip, plus anyone affiliated with the corp has the option of taking the firearm out and shooting it. Right now my husband and I are not incorporated; it hasn't been necessary to get CLEO signoff where we live. So, he has some Class III stuff that legally I can't take to the range without him being present - even with his permission - and vice versa. However, if we incorporated and transferred everything to the corp, then we would both be affiliated and I could take his NFA firearms to the range by myself, and vice versa.

Con's are that if the corp is every dissolved, all of the NFA firearms would have to be transferred immediately to someone else - which requires new sets of Form 4's, fingerprint cards, photos, CLEO signoffs, paying the transfer tax of either $5 or $200 per firearm, etc. Plus even if the corporation makes and spends no money, there are still costs associated with keeping it registered with a state, as well as filing tax forms regularly. The tax forms will have lots of zero's in the columns, but it still has to be done.

CleverNickname
April 29, 2004, 09:00 AM
The type of corporation to do depends on your state law. Here in Texas, an LLC is the type of corp with the easiest upkeep that is able to have NFA. A full blown corporation that issues stocks, etc. was unneccessary. The laws may be different in other states and the BATF may not consider a MN LLC to be sufficient. Talk to a lawyer.

As for the lower wait times, I've heard that too, but so far I haven't been so lucky with my LLC. As for photos and fingerprints, I've done one personal transfer and photos/fingerprints aren't really a big deal. In fact, IMHO it would probably make it easier to prove to a LEO at a range that you did in fact own the title II item in question if your name and photo was on the form 4 versus the corporation's name.

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