What do guns mean to you?


February 8, 2003, 03:08 AM
I had an "AUSSIE" ask me " Why do Americans own so many guns?" And "What do guns mean to you?" My reply was "FREEDOM". He laughed and said "Freedom" freedom from what? And then his ROO crap started to fly! I damn near lost my cool.
So, I ask you. What do guns mean to you? I will be sure that my "Aussie" buddy has a look at all of the replies.:fire:

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February 8, 2003, 03:31 AM

February 8, 2003, 03:32 AM

The right to defend my own life.

February 8, 2003, 04:14 AM
Life, Liberty, Freedom from tyranny and Security..

February 8, 2003, 04:22 AM
That if it comes down to the last straw, I *will* have a say in how things go down.

That may be someone breaking into my home, someone attempting to do me or someone I love harm, or it may be the crossing a final line with regards to this nation's future.

I can't say what it will be. I can say that I will do my best to control my own destiny if and when the time comes.

Guns are simply a tool to ensure that one has a fighting chance at freedom and a deterent to those that would take those freedoms away.

February 8, 2003, 04:39 AM
Guns mean;

I can defend my family or myself against any person who would do harm, regardless of his physical attributes.

My fellow citizens and I could defend ourselves against aggressors of a tyrannical government, whether it were foreign or domestic.

Society, when armed and trained in [their] use, is imbued with a sense of confidence, and act as a whole to keep those with evil in their hearts and minds less sure of their willingness to put their thoughts into practice.

The sacrifices of our Founding Fathers to secure the freedoms guaranteed in the Bill of Rights are for naught if we allow ourselves to be debarred [their] use.

Just a thought.

February 8, 2003, 04:49 AM
The ability, should I require it, to choose my own destiny. Free from the evil/sinister/twisted/misguided machinations of those who may think that they can control my life whether directly or indirectly. They can't.

Oh makdaddy03 you can tell your 'Aussie' associate that I'm Australian as well. It's not just a U.S. thing. In fact I never felt as free as I do now that I'm a gun owner, and I never thought I'd feel as free as I do now before I became a gun owner.

February 8, 2003, 05:00 AM
Agreed, freedom.

It's slipping away. But for now, freedom.

Kahr carrier
February 8, 2003, 05:15 AM

February 8, 2003, 07:14 AM
There seem to be too many Aussies who buy the blissninny misinformation their Media is selling:banghead:

February 8, 2003, 07:22 AM
And don't forget the hilarious FUN of shooting a few .44 Rem Mag max-loads!!!

BOOM till you drop!!! :evil: :evil: :evil:

February 8, 2003, 07:35 AM
The right to own guns means simply that the playing field is leveled. The smallest, most frail or infirm individual has the same chance for survival in a SHTF situation as the 300 pound neanderthal who without that right would win, hands down.

The right to own guns also means that you are a CITIZEN in this country instead of a SUBJECT, with the power (along with the millions of other like minded gun owners) to control your own destiny, With this right, Governments can be held in check, while without it they can and will ride roughshod over the population.

In essence, at least to me, the right to own guns means peace of mind and the sense of security and well being that comes with it.


February 8, 2003, 07:48 AM
FREEDOM. If he asks "Freedom from what?," he doesn't understand.

Tell your Aussie friend to check out the UKs violent crime rates since the Subjects were disarmed. Worse than the US. How does one justify keeping those who defend themselves in prison while those who brought the fight to him go free?

February 8, 2003, 10:40 AM
I find myself less and less able to have conversations with people like this.

"Why do you own guns?"
"Why do you think that anybody on this planet has the right to tell me what I can and can't own, as long as I'm not hurting anyone with it?"

February 8, 2003, 10:48 AM


February 8, 2003, 11:05 AM
Freedom. Self respect. Responsibility. And FUN!

February 8, 2003, 11:11 AM
Just turn the question by pointing at widespread gun ownership in New Zealand and ask, "Why are you guys such risk-averse pansies compared with the people only a few hundred miles to your northeast?"

That type of question is also one I would like to ask of New Jerseyians.

February 8, 2003, 11:14 AM
As the old saying goes: God made men and Sam Colt made them equal.

February 8, 2003, 11:16 AM
For starters, firearms don't give us "freedom." They do give us an ability to more ably secure our freedom than we would have if we were unarmed.

They are like nuclear weapons in this regard. If you have nucs then you are less likely to be attacked by a country whether they have nucs or not. This does not guarantee that you will not be attacked. They may be able to take out your weapons in a first strike or they may be willing to accept your response. You will be in a better position with them than without.

Of course the "bliss ninnies" will say that without them you won't face that first strike.

I guess you have to decide if you are more willing to die on your feet, than to live on your knees.

February 8, 2003, 12:17 PM
FREEDOM. If he asks "Freedom from what?," he doesn't understand.Bingo!

They have become a litmus test for me. If a person that I am speaking to doesn't "get" guns, I know that they don't possess so much as a rudimentary understanding of the way the world works.

The curious thing is that a lot of those people are actually salvagable. The inate spirit of self-preservation and longing for freedom are very powerful things. Tap into that, and you may be able to turn the person away from "the not so bright side".

February 8, 2003, 01:13 PM
Along w/ voting, owning property, freedom of speech, my guns are apart of being an American. To me, my guns are a hobby and allow me to relax and hang out w/ friends & family as well as being able to defend those same friends & family.

February 8, 2003, 01:19 PM
Exactly what JPM70535 said. Are you sure you're not my good, warm twin down there in Florida?

February 8, 2003, 01:36 PM
slaves can't have guns free men can.

George Hill
February 8, 2003, 04:31 PM
Metal and Wood, by Dennis Bateman:

It is a rare person who does not attach some sort of value or emotion to some
physical object or to an event. A home becomes more than a building. A statue of
the Virgin Mary, a crucifix, a flag or a song, or even a photograph can stir
emotions greater than the value of the material item.

I have a piece of paper showing I served in the military until I was discharged
honorably. But, oh, the memories that piece of paper conjures up. The friends,
the fun times. The bad times. The times when we were bound closer to strangers
than to our own families and, in frightening chaos, our lives hung by a thread.
Many of our friends died far from home. Ask us about the feeling of “American
soil” upon returning to the land we loved. Ask those returning soldiers about

Remember the old, faintly humorous band of American Legionnaires, wearing
out-dated military uniforms straining at the buttons. But, God how proudly they
marched. Grinning, waving to friends and families, and always, always “The Flag!” Ask them if the flag is mere cloth, I dare you.

See the elderly lady sitting in a lawn chair watching the fourth of July parade. Three flags carefully folded some forty years ago into triangles now rest in her lap - one for each lost son. Ask her if those flags are mere cloth, I dare you.

Look at the old man quietly crying, leaning against the Iwo Jiima Memorial at
Arlington Cemetery. As he turns to you, smiles with some embarrassment, and
says in a choked whisper, “I was there.” Ask him, “Is it just metal and clay?” Ask
him. I dare you.

The Wall. My God, the Wall. See the young man lightly tracing the name of his
father there inscribed. Ask him if its just rock. Ask him. I dare you.

My guns? They’re of little real value compared to my family and my home. They
are toys, or tools, or both. But what those guns represent to me is greater than all
of us, greater than myself, my family, indeed greater than our entire generation.
What could be of such value?

The freedom of man to live within civil, self-imposed limitations rather than under
restrictions placed upon him by a ruler or a ruling class.

Imagine the daring, the bravery of a few men to declare they intended to create a
new country, independent of the burden of their established Rulers!

Those men we call our forefathers were brilliant men. They could have
maneuvered themselves into positions of influence within the structure of the
times, but they did not. They struggled to free themselves from tyranny. They
wrote the Declaration of Independence. And they backed up their words and ideals with metal and wood.

They knew the dangers of such dreams and actions. They knew it was a frightening and dangerous venture into the unknown when they dared reach beyond their grasp for a vision - for an ideal. But they dared to dedicate
themselves to achieve Liberty and Freedom for their children, and their children’s
children, through the generations.

Imagine the dreams and yearnings of centuries finally being reduced to the written word. The Rights of “We the People!” instead of the “Powers of the Monarchy.”

Our forefathers dared to create a new government - a new form of government.
And they knew that any organization has, as its first and foremost goal, its
continued existence. Second only to that it strives to increase its power. It plots,
it devises, it maneuvers to achieve control over its environment - over its subjects.

Our Forefathers decided to make America different from any country, anywhere, at
any time in the entire history of the entire world. This country, this new nation of
immigrants, would be based upon the concept that people could rule themselves better than any single person or small group of persons could rule them.

Other countries have had outstanding documents with guarantees for its citizens -
but the citizens have become enslaved. How, these great men pondered, can we
ensure this new government will remain subject to the will of the People?

They wanted limits upon this new government. Therefore, our forefathers wrote
limitations into the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. And one of those Rights
was that metal and wood, as the final power of the people, would secure this country for the future generations.

Metal and wood were the means by which we won our freedom.
Metal and wood were the means by which we kept our freedom.
Metal and wood may be the means by which we regain our freedom.

Metal and wood are the final power of the people. Take away the metal and wood
and the people become powerless - they can only beg, they supplicate for favors.

We are unique in our ability to rule ourselves but we are letting it slip away.
Today we compromise. We try to appease man’s insatiable appetite for power by
throwing him bits of our freedoms. But the insatiable appetite for power can not
be appeased. The freedoms we feed him only make us weaker and him stronger.

We must conquer him and again ensure the “Blessings of Liberty” won for us by our forefathers.

We must be ready to use metal and wood again, for if we are ready, truly ready,
we may be able to conquer the monster with words - for in its heart it is a coward.
But if we continue to feed the monster our freedoms, we will become too weak to
win, to weak even to fight, and we will become a conquered people. We will have
sold ourselves and our future generations into servitude.

If words fail us, we will use metal and wood, we will regain what we have lost, we
will achieve what we seek, we will guarantee the America of our forefathers for the future generations.

So you see, our guns are more than metal and wood. They are our heritage of freedom. They are the universally understood symbol that the government, no matter how big and strong it may be, answers to us! They are the tools we will use to prevent tyranny in the land of our forefathers and our children. So, ask me what my guns mean to me. Ask my children what our guns mean to them. Ask us. I dare you.

February 8, 2003, 05:09 PM
Just another carbon fiber fashion accessory ;)

Defense, sporting discipline, social responsibility litmus test....etc.

February 8, 2003, 05:14 PM
Guns mean that I can walk around in the woods and mountains with less worries about being lunch for Ma Griz and her 2 kids.
Guns put meat on my table that isn't full of growth hormones, antibiotics, and strange biological-warfare-type diseases.
Guns let my Canadian government know that I ain't bowing down to their bullsh*t laws.
Guns are a social event, going out with the boys (and girls) and shooting gym bags full of ammo, having a good time.
Guns are my right, and is what seperates me from the sheep...

February 8, 2003, 06:05 PM
Freedom-for myself and my countrymen.

Independence- I can defend myself and my family if necessary.

Acceptance of responsibility. I am responsible for, and able to, defend the Homeland if needed.

A physical and spiritual link to those who came before me, and those who will come after me.


February 8, 2003, 09:27 PM
What everyone said and

Because we still can.

Live Free or Die


Baba Louie
February 8, 2003, 10:07 PM
I've had several people ask me that... it's like... deja vu.
So I tell 'em...

"When i was a kid, I liked fireworks. Loud & bright...dangerous... but cool."

"I liked to throw rocks. I did it a lot and got in trouble for it. I got good at it. I got a slingshot so I could get gooder."

"Then my Dad took me shooting with my uncles (Marines, circa'62-65)"...

"I was hooked. The best of both. Boom...Rock...targets...you were in total personal control. you know what I mean"

"Responsibility lesson. "

"Big consequences. "

"You possess and control power."

I blame Dad.


February 8, 2003, 10:58 PM
My freedom, my safety, and my fun.

February 8, 2003, 11:51 PM
Two phrases come to mind.
"God made man, Sam Colt made them equal."
Another phrase from another board, "It's better die on your feet than live on your knees."

February 9, 2003, 12:08 AM

February 9, 2003, 12:44 AM
Thanks for the replies. I cant wait to see his face Monday morning.:)

February 9, 2003, 12:53 AM
What do guns mean to me? Liberty.

Guns afford me the ability to become self-sufficient, to establish my basic human right to self defense, to secure my domicile from unauthorized intrusion and most importantly, to affirm my right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Remember, an unarmed man is a slave, but an armed man is a citizen.

February 9, 2003, 02:46 AM

It means we bow down to no one, no ruler, no criminal, no bully, ..NO ONE.....

It means we can defend and maintain what so many who came before us fought and died for.

Should we relenquish this power to defend than surely all is lost.

What it means is I am an AMERICAN citizen!

Don't tread on me!

February 9, 2003, 03:04 AM
I say read our constitution and read the real History of our great country and you would understand . I am not a sheep . I am a thinking human being with a right to live . and responsible for my own well being .

February 9, 2003, 02:40 PM
FREEDOM. Could not have said it better. :cool:

February 9, 2003, 02:47 PM
I still can not read "Metal and Wood" without tears coming to my eyes.

Tell your buddy to read this.

For those who have served, are serving, and will serve;
And, for each and every citizen of this great Nation.

This we'll defend--to the last gasp of our breath, to the last light of day, with every ounce of our being.

To those who still don't understand--you probably never will.

And to those who would take our freedoms--be warned. Remember the birth of this Nation, in bloody Revolution.

We will not go quietly.

Turkey Creek
February 9, 2003, 05:58 PM
For me it's a variety of things- the concentration and discipline that shooting teaches- exercising my brain when reloading, in the search for the perfect round of ammunition- the security of knowing that I have at my disposal the means to protect my family and possessions- and deep down the knowledge that if my country ever becomes so despotic as to attempt to remove me from the roles of free men and turn me into a slave of the beurocratic state, I can fall into line with my forefathers and once more STAND AT THE BRIDGE and say NO! to the REDCOATS!

February 9, 2003, 06:37 PM
Well - it's all been said ....... but yeah .. it is a freedom thing but most of all it reflects what I consider an innate right of every individual ..... to defend him/herself. The cops sure can't do it for ya.

The deterrant effect, IMO, of CCW is inestimable .... the opposite of course would be Oz and Uk for example .. there might as well be notices on homes ''Owner unarmed and vulnerable''.!

With firearms comes however great and necessary responsibity ... once that is grasped and followed then in essense I will always claim ... ''an armed society - is a polite society''..... plus.. the other old saying .... '' if guns are outlawed - then only outlaws have guns''.

February 9, 2003, 10:17 PM
I can't say it any better than Roscoe Benson once said on another message board (TFL or 1911, I can't remember which):

The weapon is a delight because it is simultaneously a tool, an artifact, and a symbol of a willingness to resist others who would, by unjust and injudicious force, attempt to impose their will on us.

Those words rang true to me to such an extent that I wrote them down.

February 10, 2003, 01:14 AM
I started a similar thread, and got many wonderful replies. Here you go: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=66043#post66043

I still stand by what I said in that thread:

The other day I was at a local store checking out some lever-action rifles, and while holding it I just felt, well, "Free" for lack of a better word.

I love weapons of all sorts because to me they symbolize freedom, self-reliance, and independence, just to name a few.

And of course the fact that slaves, subjects, peasants and serfs do not own guns. Free men do.

Guy B. Meredith
February 10, 2003, 02:49 AM
No big philosophical thing. Firearms are a pleasant form of recreation requiring hand eye coordination and involving an aspect of meditation. Firearms are interesting examples of (sometimes) skilled craftsmanship and ingenious mechanical design. Very interesting, intellectually.

If freedom is involved it is freedom from bigotry that suggest my interest is something evil or suspect. Freedom of being involved in a self policing sport where (except in Australia) guards and police are not required--unlike soccer and other major sport events.

I do understand that police monitor Australian firearms events, which is typical of the bigotry rampant in the remnants of the Commonwealth. Since my wife is Australian my exposure to her family and others has helped me realize the degree of bigotry that exists Down Under, though not to understand it.

There are Aussies that understand the simple joy of working with shooting skills and are bigotry free. Some of them compete in the International Revolver Championship each year here in California. Unfortuantely the one Aussie I took to the range (my wife's nephew) did not want the photos of him sent to others Down Under. By the way, he was shooting 1" holes with over 100 rounds freehand at 7 yards in less than 2 hours at the range.

Missouri Mule
February 10, 2003, 12:40 PM

That and I can't afford an expensive little sports car....:D

February 10, 2003, 12:43 PM
The meaning has evolved over the years. Guns were a way of putting the food on the table when I was a kid. Later they were a challenge and skill to be mastered. Now they are a chosen way of life. I choose to be responsible for MY own life rather than leave it to others. I choose to defend my freedom and my life and my family. Yes, my guns mean freedom to me. If they were outlawed today call me an outlaw till I die.

February 10, 2003, 01:14 PM
Your friend isn't asking a level question as the implication is clear - as in why do you need those icky guns.

Point him here: A Nation of Cowards


if that isn't enough then point him here: Jeffery Snyder's home page:


February 10, 2003, 01:42 PM
The best answer is the answer already given countless times. A firearm means freedom in a hundred different ways.

However, having a firearm and not having the will to learn how to properly use it is about as useful as not having a firearm. I was raised in a family of hunters and quickly saw that the rifles and shotguns in the family put food on the table. We didn't think of them as "home-defense" weapons to repel a break-in, and I wonder if we could have gotten them into action if we had needed to.

Today, things are different. I carry my sidearm for protection and the need for that has really had an impact on my thinking. I needed to learn how to use the handful of power and came to these forums to learn all that I could. That small decision in turn led to even greater changes in my thinking.

The firearms, and my willingness to learn how to use them properly, are symbolic of my willingness to stand on my own two feet. My firearms are my talismans - they say that I will put food on the table for my family - that I will take my responsibilities seriously and guard carefully the power I hold. My firearms, and my willingness to use them, are totemic symbols, saying that I will not go quietly into that dark night

My firearms are signs of my freedom.

February 12, 2003, 01:59 AM
I let my old aussie buddy see all of your replies and only an antigun aussie would have said such a thing. "But thats just the opinions of a progun message board""What does the rest of your country think about firearms?" My reply "20 million gun owners cant be wrong!" "We all own them for "FREEDOM." And then I ask him out the door:) :what:

Guy B. Meredith
February 12, 2003, 02:27 AM
I think the original question was something like "why do Americans own so many guns?". So where else except a forum of gun owners could you get the answer to that question? Anti gun types don't have guns so they wouldn't have a clue.

I know from dealing with my Aussie wife's friends that there is rampant bigotry in that portion of the Commonwealth, but I thought they did have at least a passing acquaintance with logic.

Hmmm, come to think of it the two (bigotry and logic) ARE mutually exclusive.

Oh, by the way you might check out your numbers on the gun owners. Other numbers have been much higher.

February 12, 2003, 02:27 AM


Our opinions are worthless, right?

Who cares what the redneck gun nuts think, eh?

I hope you permanently showed him the door.

Don't want him stealing any more of your precious oxygen.

February 12, 2003, 02:53 AM
Is it me, or do non-Americans often have an inferiority complex when coming to America? If I had a nickel for every foreigner that felt the need to thumb his or her nose at our country while feverishly trying to immigrate here. Sheesh.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this still is the greatest nation to live in, is it not? And why is that? FREEDOM. As oft repeated in previous posts. And from where, pray tell, does all this freedom come? Our guns give teeth to our Constitution.

Let your Aussie "friend" bring his sour grapes back home. God forbid he or some loved one become a victim of a violent crime. I hear gun control down under is a godsend....:rolleyes:

February 12, 2003, 09:42 AM
The quote, "I am the monarch of all I survey, I am the captain of my soul" comes to mind...

February 12, 2003, 01:31 PM
"But thats just the opinions of a progun message board""What does the rest of your country think about firearms?"

Translation: "I didn't get the answers I was expecting, wanted, and have been conditioned to believe."

Well, makdaddy, perhaps he would like these answers better:

Why I REALLY own guns:

-Because I want to kill people, and like doing it. Hey, come here...

-Because I like shooting cute, fuzzy animals. The younger the better. Sometimes I'll even eat them. Raw. While howling at the moon.

-Because I'm an illiterate, uneducated redneck. Oh, I sleeps with my sister, too.

Ask your "friend" if he likes those answers better. :rolleyes:

"I've already made up my mind; don't confuse me with the facts. How could gun owners be so educated and have such lofty, noble morals and ideals in mind about gun ownership?"

4v50 Gary
February 12, 2003, 09:38 PM
The ability to defend oneself, one's family and home and finally, the reserved power to overthrow a tyranny.

February 12, 2003, 09:54 PM
I command the ground within the effective range of my rifle.

All those within that range who are friendly to me are under my protection.

My safety and the safety of those under my protection does not depend on the response time or ability of the local law enforcement agency to respond to calls for help.

February 12, 2003, 10:16 PM
Happiness is a warm gun, it's true but strange enough though, I am happy even when they are sitting in the safe, or even when I am cleaning them.

Fairly decent investment if I ever decide to stop being happy and sell them. About half the guns I've bought over the years are worth twice what I paid for them, the rest hold their original value well. There are guns worth more than their weight in gold. I don't have any, but hey, they're out there.

It's probably the only thing I will have to pass on to my descendents of any value once the gov't and health care systems get done sticking it to me. My kids can use them to pay my funeral costs and still have a few left over to remember me by. :)

Ala Dan
February 13, 2003, 02:21 AM
Security and Peace Of Mind

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

Phil Ca
February 13, 2003, 12:01 PM
When I lived in a town just over the border from San Francisco we had a lot of young people in the neighborhood that were starting to feel their oats. One family had at least four of these young men that were staying with them but wards of the court.

We started having break-ins in the area and I was concerned about the family home and our family. I was a federal officer and carried a gun and one day as I arrived home on my Vespa scooter several of the boys hailed me over. I stopped and asked what they wanted. They said,"We kow you are a cop and we want to see your gun". I politely told them,"I carry a gun and you don't want to see it". I said that as gravely as I could and looked them all in the eye.

I took a USSS target showing a man in a suit pointing a revolver and fired 6 rounds at the center of mass and then placed red paper behind the holes. I took it home and hung it in the garage and then on certain days when I was home at the time school kids were walking by, I would open my garage door and turn on a light behind that target. From the street it was very visable and I know that some kids saw it.

One weekend when we were gone, as were some other neighbors, several homes were broken in to. Ours was never touched and I never had to have another conversation with the "gangsta wannabes".

We eventually moved to the hills above Napa Valley and during 25 years there we never did have a break in, although we did lose a bike to an opportunist that saw it in the yard. Now we are in a more urban setting and we are taking precautions even though the area is very nice.


February 13, 2003, 03:29 PM
I've struggled with a concise answer to that question for years. I started shooting before I had any concept of rights and freedoms; back then guns went "Boom!" and that was enough justification for a young boy to like them.

A little later, I was able to hunt by myself. I loved being out in
the woods, tracking critters and being part of nature. Guns meant a productive hunt, with meat on the table afterwards. Plus, they still went "Boom!"

Shortly before I was old enough to vote, I became conscious of civics. Rights, freedoms, social responsibilities - I learned they all came from somewhere. Part were inherent, part were earned, but they all had to be fought for. Guns became a symbol for that fight, and tangible assurance from the protector of those rights that I was part of the process, and could be trusted with my own life. And, they still went "Boom!"

I went to college, studied constitutional law and poltical science. I went to law school, studied more constitutional law and more politics and more about rights and how to protect them. I may not be able to explain it without a several-hours lecture on rights and responsibilities of citizenship, but now I know why the great men who founded this country had the common sense to spell out the rights guaranteed by the second amendment. Guns do indeed mean freedom, as they always have to americans. Plus, back then they had muskets, which produced a particularly satisfying "Boom!"

Now, I still love the boom, but the other half of my brain could not rest easy without the freedom to make that boom. I live in a safe area, but I carry because I can. I can buy all the food I want at the corner store, but I hunt because I can. I don't really need to put a hole in anything a thousand yards away, but I got a rifle and a scope because I can.

Now, I've got a statue of a mountaineer standing on a rock, gazing out over the hills, in buckskin suit, holding his rifle. It was that ubiquitous-in-West Virginia image that inspired me as a child, when I saw my dad dressed the same way. As I grew older and more learned, I realized that something I knew way back when I started shooting summed it all up: Montani Semper Liberi.

February 13, 2003, 05:55 PM
Freedom, security, and fond memories.


February 13, 2003, 06:31 PM
Anchored, I hope you will not object Sir, but I should like to place a copy of your last post on my board .... it bears further exposure. Thx.

February 14, 2003, 10:37 AM
Ok, thanks, I'd be honored.

Which board is that?

February 14, 2003, 11:41 AM
Patriot Network ...... we run as a closed board these days . due I am afraid to certain ''disruptive'' influences from certain individuals. If you wish to explore further do PM me and I'll follow that up.

I posted the piece, with full credits to you and this board as a source. Thx.

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