Teams of snipers thin insurgents' ranks.


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Ironbarr
April 29, 2004, 11:20 AM
They work...
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/nation/8544525.htm?1c (Credit: Philadelphia Inquirer)Marines in Fallujah keep enemy in sight

Teams of snipers thin insurgents' ranks.

By Carol Rosenberg

Inquirer Foreign Staff


FALLUJAH, Iraq - Marines awaiting orders to launch a full-scale attack here are using a not-so-secret weapon that commanders consider more effective than a 500-pound bomb to winnow down enemy fighters: sniper teams that target anyone suspected of being an insurgent.

In the last three weeks, two sniper teams attached to the First Battalion, Fifth Marine Regiment, have shot down 90 people who have strayed into their sights. The two teams are part of the 100 Marine sharpshooters deployed by three battalions around the city. One sniper secreted away in another corner of Fallujah has "26 confirmed kills," military officers here report.

"Every time we get to kill somebody, he is no longer shooting at the Marines," said Sgt. Dennis Elchlinger, 31, of Encampment, Wyo., who is one of only 500 scout-snipers in the Marine Corps.

Elchlinger said he did not know whether his team's victims were foreign fighters or local citizens brandishing weapons in a bid to drive out the U.S. occupiers.

"They don't wear a uniform. It's hard to tell the nationality of someone with a towel on his face," said Elchlinger, referring to the way many of the insurgents cover their faces.

Snipers have worked in the shadows amid a cease-fire that U.S. officials say has been repeatedly broken by insurgents. The snipers were deployed early this month, as guerrilla ambushes claimed more than 50 Marine lives in the bloodiest fighting since U.S. troops entered Iraq last year. Not since the Vietnam War have American forces deployed so many sharpshooters.

Day and night, the sniper teams stalk their prey, well beyond the bases from which Marines control about a quarter of the city. From rooftops, in fields and around alleyways, the sharpshooters are an offensive force - at a time when most Marines are under orders to fire only when attacked.

The Marines are threatening an all-out assault on the insurgents holed up in the city if an agreement is not reached for the Iraqi fighters to give up their guns.

A sniper team consists of four men, each of whom carries a sniper rifle, an M-16 and a pistol, as well as extra ammo and a host of other equipment. They set up sniper nests from which they track suspected enemy fighters with long-range scopes, thermal imaging devices and computerized equipment. If the team agrees a person has "hostile intent" - such as carrying a weapon or rocket-propelled grenade - a designated sharpshooter cuts him down with a special bolt-action rifle, killing him with a single shot up to 1,000 yards away.

"They've become the enemy's worst nightmare. We have something they can't counter," boasts Marine Lt. Col. Brennan Byrne, the First Battalion's commander.

"It's better to send a well-aimed bullet down than a 500-pound bomb," says Lt. Col. Austin "Sparky" Renforth, who is in charge of all Marine operations in Fallujah and has ordered air strikes to bail out Marines suddenly pinned down by insurgent gunmen.

"We didn't come for full-scale warfare," he said. "We brought soccer balls and Frisbees, wanted to make friends with these people. Once you drop a couple guys - call it information ops or psych ops - you get the message to the whole area."

In fact, commanders boast that in on-again, off-again negotiations with Fallujah's civic leaders, the Iraqis asked first that the Marines withdraw their snipers. Refugees fleeing Fallujah complained that the sharpshooters target civilians.

The snipers say they target only people with "hostile intent" and are given wide latitude to determine that. While an infantryman is under orders to fire only if a person is leveling a weapon, sharpshooters may fire at people whose behavior suggests they are part of the insurgency.

There's no shortage of targets.

"Seems there's more enemy here to me. Everyone was walking freely with AK-47s," said Cpl. Oscar Reyes, comparing his assignment in Fallujah with one a year ago, when he was posted near Saddam Hussein's former Republican Palace in Baghdad, picking off enemies who came near U.S. forces.

That mission lasted three days. Reyes has been in Fallujah 21 days and counts eight confirmed kills and five probable kills in that time.

Besides sharpshooting, the snipers have called in air strikes on mortar positions and used their long-range rifles to detonate a dead fighter with an explosive vest, at a safe distance.

The snipers don't think their efforts will forestall the need for the Marines to launch a full-scale assault. "These guys are bunkered down in their houses. You've got to get them out of the house to do the job," said First Lt. Timothy Murray, 26, of Aliso Viejo, Calif., who commands a scout-sniper platoon of 20.

Elchlinger is typical of members of the elite unit. Slightly older than the average infantryman, he started out hunting - elk - long before he found himself in Iraq.

But his team leader, Reyes, is 23, and a product of a big city, Los Angeles. He had never hunted before becoming a Marine.

Now, he says, "I'm a hunter of gunmen."

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foghornl
April 29, 2004, 11:24 AM
snipers have called in air strikes

Nothing quite like sniping with an AC-130 gunship, is there ? ? ? :D

El Tejon
April 29, 2004, 11:25 AM
May all their hunts be productive!

They make life and death decisions now so that our children will have to make decisions regarding which universities they will attend in the future.

TallPine
April 29, 2004, 11:32 AM
And we wonder why they hate us .... :rolleyes:

Mulliga
April 29, 2004, 11:36 AM
Seems there's more enemy here to me. Everyone was walking freely with AK-47s,"

My kind of place. Good luck to our Marines and all, but it's kind of depressing to get targeted just for HAVING a weapon. Makes me wonder what'll happen in a few decades over here...:cool:

angrywalkindude
April 29, 2004, 11:41 AM
How is a kill confirmed for a sniper?

Chipperman
April 29, 2004, 11:45 AM
I'm surprised at the tone of the article. It was so open about killing people, when most reports like that veil the subject a little more.

TallPine
April 29, 2004, 11:48 AM
Makes me wonder what'll happen in a few decades over here...
You REALLY think it will be that LONG .....?

notbubba
April 29, 2004, 11:52 AM
TallPine

"And we wonder why they hate us .... "

What do you mean by that?

GUNSMOKE45441
April 29, 2004, 12:07 PM
El Tejon
You hit the nail on the head. It's like selective surgery cut out the bad boys.

These people hate every one that is not a muslim and a lot of those that are.

There's no reasoning with madmen.

Regards
Gunsmoke45441

DadOfThree
April 29, 2004, 12:26 PM
"Every time we get to kill somebody, he is no longer shooting at the Marines," said Sgt. Dennis Elchlinger, 31, of Encampment, Wyo., who is one of only 500 scout-snipers in the Marine Corps

'nuff said

JonnyB
April 29, 2004, 12:27 PM
I was telling Mrs. B. just this morning at breakfast that, if *I* was in command over there, I'd have snipers set up wherever a bomb disabled an American vehicle - like yesterday's ambush. Then, when the bastages come in to dance on the bodies and wreckage, kill 'em all - men, women, kids. All of them.

Dead people don't celebrate very well. It really torques me off to watch the hoopla that the newsies record ater a vehicle is destroyed. If I got to watch them shot down while dancing, I'd enjoy it quite a bit.

JB

critter
April 29, 2004, 12:45 PM
A VERY effective tool! Send more of em and good hunting to them ALL. Stay safe guys!

Thumper
April 29, 2004, 01:02 PM
Interesting tone in the article...

Our commanders "boast..."
Insurgents are "victims" of the snipers.
"At a safe distance," snipers have "shot down" people who've "strayed into their sights."

Those poor insurgents.

Whatever.

:rolleyes:

DonP
April 29, 2004, 01:04 PM
A "Kill" is confirmed by the partner on the sniper team using the spotting scope or binoculars. He serves as back up with the 16 for the triggerman and usually is a qualified sniper themselves.

Teams often take turns with the .308 they use. (I'm assuming they still use .308 since this doesn't sound like an application for the Barrett .50's?)

As far as; "No wonder they hate us". Beyond a hearty and hale, "who cares", if they are shooting at us or preparing to ... If a person is carrying an AK or RPG on the other side of the street, square etc. and is stupid enough to run out and shake their weapon at us, he already hates us.

He stops hating us when he dies and the scope moves on to the next target who will shortly stop hating us too.

If you have never been shot at in anger, the rules are fairly simple. Anyone, man, woman, teenager etc., shooting at or planning to shoot at you or your buddies deserves to die as quickly as possible.

Soul searching, hand wringing and empathy for the "poor oppressed and simple people of Iraq" (or Iran, Syria as the case may be here) have no place in these siutations. That's reserved for people already safe and sound at home with the freedom to debate at length over Starbucks and "tsk, tsk" the men and women in harms way.

Want to stay alive in Falluhjah, it's easy, don't carry a weapon or borrow one to show off for your buddies by running out and screaming at the Marines with an RPG on your shoulder.

This whole thing is starting to sound like Stalingrad and Enemy at the Gates.

Langenator
April 29, 2004, 01:04 PM
Is it just me, or is there an undertone by the writer that the snipers are a bad thing? Just the way some things are phrased:

shot down 90 people who have strayed into their sights.


the sharpshooters are an offensive force - at a time when most Marines are under orders to fire only when attacked.
a designated sharpshooter cuts him down with a special bolt-action rifle

Phrases like "shot down" and "cuts him down" suggest to me that the reported isn't terribly supportive of the Marines tactics. Personally, I think they're great. Knowing what i know about ROE, especially in high-publicity situations, I'm sure the snipers have to be pretty sure their target is a BG before firing.

Intel says there's about 1500 BGs in the city. I think I can afford to donate 500 rounds of match-grade BTHP 7.62...anyone else want to help? Where do I send it?

Wildalaska
April 29, 2004, 01:09 PM
I was telling Mrs. B. just this morning at breakfast that, if *I* was in command over there, I'd have snipers set up wherever a bomb disabled an American vehicle - like yesterday's ambush. Then, when the bastages come in to dance on the bodies and wreckage, kill 'em all - men, women, kids. All of them.

Ah yes the American way...shoot down unarmed women and children!

:barf: :barf:

WilddontbecomeamonsterfightingamonsterAlaska

Quartus
April 29, 2004, 01:13 PM
And we wonder why they hate us ....



Some of us don't wonder. We know quite well why they hate us. There are two reasons:

[list=1]
We are not Muslims.

We support Israel.
[/list=1]



Either reason by itself is all the reason they need to hate us. Either reason by itself is all the reason they need to want us dead.


Those who don't understand that will continue in their fantasy world where negotiation is the right way to deal with terrorists.


Innocent blood is the price of such folly.

Balog
April 29, 2004, 01:15 PM
First, that is one hella biased article. Makes those heroes out to be villains. Journalistic BS:fire: .

Second, this seems wrong. A sniper team consists of four men, each of whom carries a sniper rifle, an M-16 and a pistol, as well as extra ammo and a host of other equipment.

Why would the sniper and his spotter both have -16's? Am I just ignorant of SOP for snipers?

...at a time when most Marines are under orders to fire only when attacked.

While an infantryman is under orders to fire only if a person is leveling a weapon...

Kinda reminds me of Beirut. "Wait until they start taking potshots before you shooot back." What a load of horse feces.

TarpleyG
April 29, 2004, 01:17 PM
How is a kill confirmed for a sniper?
They're not really supposed to be...

GT

Zundfolge
April 29, 2004, 01:18 PM
It's hard to tell the nationality of someone with a towel on his face

I realise these Marines are trained professionals, but I wonder if a towel on the face of the target makes it easier to pull the trigger.

Would be ironic if the towels worn by terrorists to hide their identity (and I believe they think it makes them look more feirce or something) are actually making it easier for our guys to kill them.

Balog
April 29, 2004, 01:30 PM
Zundfolge: possible, but I doubt it. You make someone's head go "pop" with a .308 and I doubt that them having a towel over their mouth would cut down on the gore much.

MrMurphy
April 29, 2004, 01:39 PM
The M16s are for close in defense, etc. Check out SOF and pics of snipers operating Afghanistan, even though their targets are 800+ meters out, the possibility of getting mugged by an idiot with an AK is possible, so the spotter has an M16 usually with an ACOG or something, and a close-in security guy does nothing but make sure the shooter doesn't get ambushed at close range. Since the Marines are working in a city, the odds of someone popping out of a house nearby or whatever and emptying an AK at them from 50 yards off when they're shooting at someone 500m out is a possibility. After watching Black Hawk Down a couple times I'd be really into getting a warm and fuzzy from having an M16 handy in case a mob came after me. 5 round bolt guns are excellent for sniper work but not for mob stopping.

sturmruger
April 29, 2004, 02:08 PM
I think we are forgetting this is a war zone. I know there have been several instances where insurgents used women and children as human shields. There have also been cases of children and teenagers shooting at our troops. While I do not celebrate their death I cannot find too much sympathy in my heart, other then it saddens me how they have been brainwashed. I want our troops to live; if that means shooting some kid with an AK then that’s just how it goes.

MaceWindu
April 29, 2004, 02:47 PM
"""There have also been cases of children and teenagers shooting at our troops. While I do not celebrate their death I cannot find too much sympathy in my heart, other then it saddens me how they have been brainwashed. I want our troops to live; if that means shooting some kid with an AK then that’s just how it goes.""""


Damn straight....remember in Black Hawk Down when the US Ranger fell out of the window and slipped and the 10-12 yr. old kid turned and let out a burst and accidently shot his father instead?

I WOULD HAVE BLOWN THAT KID AWAY. :fire:


I have no desire to hurt innocents, women, and children. BUT, whether that 7.62 x 39 mm comes from a man, woman or child: A US soldier will be dead as fried chicken.

Weapon in hand = 7.62 x 51mm Boat-tail on the way. No ifs, ands or buts.

MaceWindu

Zundfolge
April 29, 2004, 03:13 PM
Balog, I wasn't talking about the mess ... I'm just talking about seeing a human face in your scope might make it harder to pull the trigger then someone wearing a rag on their head.

I think this is part of the reason many societies have put hoods or blind folds on those to be executed ... not for them, but for the executioner so he didn't have to look upon their face.

thumbtack
April 29, 2004, 05:51 PM
If you have never been shot at in anger, the rules are fairly simple. Anyone, man, woman, teenager etc., shooting at or planning to shoot at you or your buddies deserves to die as quickly as possible.

Now I have never been in a combat zone but my the few family members that I have that are combat vets all say the same thing.

moa
April 29, 2004, 06:49 PM
IIRC, in the book "Blackhawk Down", a Somali women holding a child walking down the street raised a handgun to shoot a GI in a Humvee. He dispatched her with an M16. Works for me.

Children can be combatants too. There are many child warriors around the world, especially in Africa.

During WWII, an American tank in Germany was knocked out by an 8 year old using a Panzerfaust anti-tank weapon. Tank commander killed the boy with his .50 BMG. Story was in one of Steve Ambrose's history books, IIRC.

4v50 Gary
April 29, 2004, 11:36 PM
I applaud the deployment of snipers over there. As their presence is felt, they decrease the morale of the opposition who must resort to other methods to fight. Just think what will happen if we ever get those thermal devices that can spot weapons beneath their clothes. Badguy with a dynamite/Semtex/C-4 vest is working his way towards a checkpoint and is dropped a couple hundred yards from it by a sniper. Awwww.

Trebor
April 29, 2004, 11:53 PM
Tag for self search.

burbanite
April 30, 2004, 10:54 AM
He stops hating us when he dies and the scope moves on to the next target who will shortly stop hating us too.


As profound a statement as I have read for some time....

ShaiVong
April 30, 2004, 11:57 AM
O.K, how to say this...

I think snipers are great. They do a patient and skilled work that saves countless American lives (the ones im chiefly concerned about). The article REALLY doesnt go into how they determine who to shoot. They discern threat based upon a wide lattatude.

I have to say I disagree with the practice *IF* they basically shoot everyone carrying an AK47. I support the use of arms for defense, and im sure that place is SHTF to the extreme.

Butttttt. If they zero in on people who wear items that identify themselves as insergents, like those whole head wraps, or arabic writing which (i assume) says something to that effect on their person, then thats great. I think they should shoot down those guys, armed or not. I just hope they're not blasting everyone whos armed... I'm armed, but I'm no arab savage.

sendec
April 30, 2004, 12:19 PM
The role of the precision rifle is to terminally disrupt individual targets based on a specific demand. Arbitrarily dumping targets based on style of dress or possession of a weapon just does'nt sit right with me, on many different levels. If the decision has been made to not engage specific targets, call in the Spectre's and hose the foes, and fully acknowledge responsibility for slaying non-combatants.. Otherwise, do not send out valuable assets like professional shooters and use them as meatcutters.

Would ANY right or wrong minded individual do business in Baghdad without a rifle? Have we decided that no one there will welcome us as liberators?

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