[BTR]

I've never seen any, but some of my friends have. I don't suppose one would be too difficult to make. How common are they?

[tyme]

There are probably, what, a few hundred per major city? Or more?
30k+?

[Jeff White]

tyme,
I would guess that 30K is a very conservative estimate. The machine guns and other ordnance brought into the country by the 16 million GIs who served in WWII is starting to boggle the mind. As the WWII generation is passing on, turn ins of all kinds of neat toys that have been squirrled away in attics and basements is really increasing. I haven't seen anything in the press about it, but a friend who was on the Secretary of State Police bomb squad here in Illinois told me that they are getting several calls a week as survivors discover everything from automatic weapons to hand grenades, mortar shells and even artillery shells.

Then if you figure in all the people who play with things they shouldn't, I'd guess that the number of illegal machine guns (not on the NFA registry) would number in the hundreds of thousands.

Jeff

[Third_Rail]

I'd say Jeff is in the right ballpark, although I'd say that the 100,000 is just the illegally MADE MGs, not illegally owned, i.e. conversions. I'd say 250,000 at least total of legally (factory) made MGs and the illegal conversions.

[oldfart]

Pick up any issue of Shotgun News and you'll see several ads for parts kits for Uzis and Stens and a lot more. I seriously doubt there are very many people who spend their money to build a dummy squirt gun.

I've seen Sten kits at one table at a gunshow and unfinished receiver tubes at another table on the other side of the hall. I'm sure plenty of guys have put one together 'for a rainy day' and just stuck it in the back of their closet. At Y2K I heard one go off about two blocks away. He must have run off thirty rounds or so.

[Oleg Volk]

Interesting that even "illegal" machine guns mostly don't get used for anything but plinking.

[Third_Rail]

Funny, that.... :scrutiny:

[Pinned&Recessed]

I recall reading somewhere that some authorities estimated the number of "Free-Market" MGs in America at around 5 million, and that's being conservative.

Returning GIs and creative people make up the bulk of them, not "drug-dealer" types.

Imagine prices on MGs if the market were suddenly flooded and the number of transferrable MGs went from 240,000 to more than 5 million!!!!

I can dream right?

[tcsd1236]

I would think that even 100,000 would be stretching it by a LOT.

[Mark13]

Who really knows?

I got a call from my wife once, the bomb squad was across the street at a very elderly womans house. Turns out her husband (deceased) had some anti aircraft cannon ammo in a box in the garage from WW2.

I would think that if those parts kits were "completed" regularly and found, the ATF would ban their sale.

[Triad]

tcsd, why do you think that?

Since vet bring backs have been mentioned, don't forget more recent vets. I know that some AKs came back from the first Gulf war. One of them turned up in a pawn shop in Killeen, TX after a Ft. Hood soldier got rid of it.

[Chip Dixon]

Heh, further evidence of LEOs living in their own little dream world :)

[Ol' Badger]

Heck. I wouldn't turn one down. They would play hell on my Chipmunk problem!
:evil:

[Master Blaster]

http://www.delawareonline.com/newsjournal/local/2004/04/30policeseizemill.html


Police seize Milltown man's guns
Silencer, automatic weapons found
By TERRI SANGINITI
Staff reporter
04/30/2004

County police arrested a 34-year-old Milltown man Wednesday and seized 20 weapons from his home after learning he had two submachine guns equipped with silencers, officials said Thursday.

Mitri S. Habash, of the first block of Duvall Court in Arundel, was released on $4,000 bail after being charged with four felony counts of possessing a destructive weapon. Police in court records described the four pieces of weaponry as a firearm silencer, a fully automatic 9 mm firearm, a fully automatic receiver for an Uzi 9 mm and an "Uzi 9 mm rifle with a barrel less than 16 inches and a folding stock."

County police chief Col. David McAllister said at a news conference that police also found two shotguns, seven rifles, nine handguns and ammunition. Police estimated the value of the collection at nearly $20,000.

"Anyone with fully automatic weapons with silencers is a danger to the community," McAllister said. "It is never legal to have silencers or automatic weapons."

Most of the guns in Habash's collection are legal to purchase, county police spokesman Cpl. Wayne Pennington said.

The gun seizure comes a week after another by the Governor's Task Force at the home of a security guard on probation in the Brookmeade II community near Prices Corner.

Habash, who operates the Ranch House Restaurant at Concord Pike and Silverside Road in Talleyville, declined to be interviewed.

McAllister said the investigation into Habash's firearms stemmed from information gathered after an investigation into an unrelated matter.

Investigators obtained a warrant to search the home of a relative, where they seized an Uzi from the safe along with a device used to turn an Uzi 9 mm weapon into an automatic weapon, police said. The remainder of Habash's collection was in a large unsecured lock box, McAllister said.

[12 Volt Man]

From the article above:

"Anyone with fully automatic weapons with silencers is a danger to the community," McAllister said. "It is never legal to have silencers or automatic weapons."


Thanks Mr. Police Chief for properly educating the public.


:banghead:

[TimRB]

"Interesting that even "illegal" machine guns mostly don't get used for anything but plinking."

Whenever I've had an argument with an anti, I've invariably heard something like "Oh, so you think that everyone should be able to buy semi-automatic machine gun bayonet-lugged pistol-gripped cop-killing schoolyard-clearing assault weapons?" Equally invariably the anti is flabbergasted by the response "Sure. Why would I be concerned that honest citizens own firearms of any type?"

Tim

[cordex]

"Anyone with fully automatic weapons with silencers is a danger to the community," McAllister said. "It is never legal to have silencers or automatic weapons."
Oh, occifer Mcallister? Is that so? Can we check the police station's gun locker? Might be that we'd find something that can go bang more than once with a single pull of the trigger - especially if there are any SWAT types in the group. If not, it's off to the National Guard armory or any nearby military base where the toys they play with would decidedly fit into the "dangerous to the community" category.

Oh, you mean that I would be a danger to the community with a machine gun or sound suppressor, but you (as a known quantity on account of your having a stamped bit of metal on your chest) are simply a stalwart defender of the community. It all makes sense now.

Of course, if I had the money to own a registered MG, then what?

[444]

"I would think that if those parts kits were "completed" regularly and found, the ATF would ban their sale."

Whenever this subject comes up, I feel obligated to mention that there is a completely legitimate reason for buying and selling these parts. There are people that legally own these guns who can legally buy parts for their guns. The reason I bring this up is that at one time I looked at these ads and thought exactly what is being expressed here: these parts and parts kits are obviously being sold to manufacture a machinegun. Then I bought a legal Sten submachine gun complete with my own tax stamp and I looked at this stuff in a whole new light: Hey !, I can use this stuff. I bought 50 magazines, I bought two complete sets of spare parts (parts kits)...............................
I do realize that SOME of these parts kits are probably being assembled into operational guns. The operative word in the above quote is the word "found". Some gang banger, some crack head, or some mobster isn't going to order a parts kit and manufacture a submachinegun for criminal purposes. The chances of that happening are nil. So if they are being built, it is by people who are appearently using them safely and are calling no attention to themselves. In other words they arn't hurting anybody or anything, so they are not found.

[Third_Rail]

I doubt any anti out there would ever realize that, though. :banghead:

[wrffr]

I actually just sent some email to the author of the delawareonline article saying that it's completely legal to own silencers, fully-automatic firearms, and other NFA items and explained the procedure to her.

After only about 15 minutes or so, this reply showed up in my inbox--

Apparently, semi-automatic weapons and silencers are illegal in the
state of Delaware, so that is what McAllister was referring to. But
otherwise, thanks for the information about the process, it was very
informative.

I'm clearly going to have to respond to clear that up as well, but I was shocked that I got a quick and polite response about it. :D

[Hkmp5sd]

The government can't tell the difference in "semiautomatic assault weapons", "military-style assault weapons" and "fully automatic weapons", so no one knows the true numbers.

There aren't any really reliable statistics on this. A study done by the Department of Justice in 1997 came up with 2% of state criminals and 3% of federal criminals that committed crimes with guns used fully automatic firearms. That sounds way high to me since a machinegun is an instant news story and you don't see them very often.

In some cases, the report combines military-style semiautomatic firearms and fully automatic firearms into a single group and other times counts them seperately. Then they screw up their own numbers. In the "highlights" section, it says 2% of crimes are done by military style semiautomatic firearms while their actual "data" says 7%.

The same report turns around and makes remarkably stupid comments like...
1 in 5 military-style semiautomatic or fully automatic guns bought from retail store.

About a fifth of inmates with a military-style semiautomatic or fully automatic weapon bought it retail -- at a store, flea market, or gun show. About a sixth of inmates with a conventional semiautomatic weapon and an eighth with a single-shot gun also had made a retail purchase.

While family and friends provided a quarter of military-style semiautomatic or fullyautomatic firearms, they gave inmates over a third of the conventional semiautomatic weapons and just under half of the single-shot guns.

Almost half of inmates possessing military-style semiautomatic or fully automatic weapons, about two-fifths of those with conventional semiautomatic firearms,and over a third of offenders having single-shot guns had got their firearm in a theft or burglary, or from a drug dealer, fence, or black market.

Also note that instead of using the trial records of the crimes, this study asked the inmates what kind of gun they used.

U.S. Department of Justice - Bureau of Justice Statistics - Firearm Use by Offenders (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/fuo.htm)

[Monkeyleg]

I've known more than one vet who had "parts." ;)

Aside from that, a few years back one of the local TV stations ran a story about how dealers at gun shows were selling parts that could be used to convert a semi to full. As "proof," they had a guy from the state crime lab shooting an illegally converted AR as background video.

I first called the guy from the crime lab and asked him how many illegally converted guns they had in inventory. He told me that, in the fifteen years that he'd been on the job, that AR was the only one they'd ever taken in.

Then I called the station, talked to the manager, and tried to explain that there's "parts" and then there's "PARTS." Without the biggie parts, you're not going to get a full auto.

He didn't care. They got their scare story.

[Dannyboy]

I've personally seen a grand total of...2. Of course, I'm sure there were numerous other enterprising young vets that were able to bring things back stateside. Then there are the conversions. I have absolutely no idea how many illegal machine guns there are except for 2.

[Ian]

Having seen some legal lighning links for sale, I gotta say they look pretty dang simple to fabricate. I'm sure there are more than a few of those floating around.

[tcsd1236]

tcsd, why do you think that?
Unlike the days when you could sign the paperwork and just bring it back, now they have to go to lengths to bring something back and not get caught, since there is no official method of doing so. I would suspect that that has had a big impact on the numbers of such weapons being "brought back". You can't just stuff it in a duffel bag and expect to slip back into the country with it.

[cordex]

You can't just stuff it in a duffel bag and expect to slip back into the country with it.
I seem to recall at least one case of a soldier being caught smuggling small arms back hidden inside a homeward-bound vehicle.

Let me repeat - one case of a soldier being caught.

[Triad]

tcsd, I can respect that, but I think you should consider that soldiers are an inventive bunch. If there is a way to get something home some of them will find it. IIRC, that gold plated MP5 got shipped home, but was intercepted in transit. How many haven't been intercepted though?

Didn't the North Hollywood bank robbers have a FA AK that came over the Mexican border?

[tcsd1236]

I know they are inventive. I have to deal with a whole company of very inventive guys.Theres a reason why gear has to be "Joe-proof", and why the Army feels the need to spell everything out in great detail when it comes to Soldier conduct.

[c_yeager]

I bet there are thousands of the things collecting dust in the bottom of closets all around the country. The process for making an "illegal machinegun" isnt particularly difficult (30 seconds with a shoestring and a semi with a reciprocating bolt and you can be a felon too). I remember when converting SKSs and stashing them was all the rage among the "sky is falling" folks in the 80's.

It is funny how few of the thousands of "illegal machine guns" ever manage to become involved in actual violent crimes though.