Pentagon: Contractors in Iraq must be unarmed


PDA






AZRickD
April 30, 2004, 12:27 AM
http://www.gazettetimes.com/articles/2004/04/29/news/nation/thunat03.txt


Pentagon seeks to bar contractors from carrying guns in Iraq

By Seth Borenstein
Knight Ridder Newspapers

ORLANDO, Fla. — As the insurgency and violence in Iraq intensify, the Department of Defense has proposed a new rule for most of the estimated 70,000 civilian contractors working in the war-torn region: They can't carry guns.

At the same time, a top Defense Department official this week acknowledged publicly for the first time that the war effort was suffering a "brain drain" of civilian workers who were fleeing Iraq because they didn't feel safe.

Truck convoys in Iraq are "more like a journey through the wild, wild west," Gen. Darryl A. Scott, the director of the Defense Contract Management Agency, told a conference of government and corporate contracting officials in Orlando, Fla.

"That's a reality there. People leave every day. … It does make operating in that environment more difficult."

It's unclear how many civilian contractors have fled Iraq and how many have been killed there because firms aren't required to report their casualties or any defections. Halliburton Inc., however, said 34 of its employees were killed in the region. Five other private security guard deaths have been publicly disclosed.

On March 23, the Defense Department proposed a rule saying that civilian contractors who accompany the military in battle areas can't carry private firearms unless they received permission by an order from the chief of U.S. forces in the area. That restriction has prompted heated discussions at the 45th annual National Contract Management Association convention.

Deidre Lee, the Pentagon's director of procurement and acquisition policy, whose office proposed the weapons restriction, said it's designed to settle one of the biggest questions facing contractors: "to arm or not to arm."

Lee said this is a life-or-death issue because "we don't have the military providing security for our contractors."

Lee told Knight Ridder Newspapers that the proposed rule could change depending on contractor reaction. The official comment period ends in late May, but there's no timetable for a final regulation. In the meantime, some contractors are carrying guns.

Many private workers in the region are ex-military personnel and prefer to be armed, said Cathy Etheredge, a contract manager for BAE Systems, which provides information technology in Afghanistan.

The problem with the rule is that it tells contractors that they're responsible for their security, but then says they can't be armed, said Nick Sanders, who chairs the contract finance committee for the National Defense Industrial Association, a trade group for traditional defense contractors.

"It doesn't appear to be a well-thought-out, coherent policy," Sanders said. "It appears to be a one-way door where contractors will have all the responsibility and cost."

Supporters of the new rule — including the biggest contractor in the area, Halliburton's Kellogg Brown and Root — said there are three big drawbacks in allowing contractors to carry weapons. Armed contractors would be more likely to be shot at or kidnapped. Also, as civilians, they don't follow the same strict rules of force as the military. And by picking up weapons, contractors could lose any death and accident insurance coverage they may have.

Dennis Wright, a KBR vice president, said contract employees should be unarmed, but he strongly recommends using armed private security. He said KBR's contract with the Defense Department says the military would provide "adequate security" to the company, but then added that "the question that comes up is, ‘What is adequate security?' especially with the latest strain on forces."

The weapons proposal comes as conditions in Iraq deteriorate.

For much of 2003, Wright said, his employees were welcomed by Iraqis. But no longer.

"The government didn't get contractors in the middle of a war zone," Wright said. "It happened that the war zone popped up around us."

In the past week, four contract workers have told Knight Ridder that they quit because of worries about security.

"You keep putting a man's life at risk every day," said one former worker who left last month and asked not to be identified for fear of retribution from his former employer. "It becomes a thing where you literally ask yourself every day: Is today my day?"

:cuss:

If you enjoyed reading about "Pentagon: Contractors in Iraq must be unarmed" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
7.62FullMetalJacket
April 30, 2004, 01:08 AM
Dennis Wright, a KBR vice president, said contract employees should be unarmed, but he strongly recommends using armed private security.

:confused:

Aren't private security outfits "contractors?"

What a crock. So, the official policy of the pentagon is to go into hostile territory unarmed lest you become a target? Sounds like the policy of Washington D.C., the murder capital of the country. :fire:

HBK
April 30, 2004, 01:52 AM
Damned if I would go over there unarmed. :rolleyes:

c_yeager
April 30, 2004, 02:39 AM
ORLANDO, Fla. — As the insurgency and violence in Iraq intensify, the Department of Defense has proposed a new rule for most of the estimated 70,000 civilian contractors working in the war-torn region: They can't carry guns.

Soooo um, 2+2=9???

Ratus
April 30, 2004, 03:04 AM
Armed contractors would be more likely to be shot at or kidnapped. :scrutiny:

As opposed to what, unarmed contractors who have been shot at or kidnapped.

:D

atek3
April 30, 2004, 03:25 AM
jee, a big company (KBR) that wants to disarm its own employees. Whats new?

atek3

AZRickD
April 30, 2004, 11:04 AM
It's all starting to make sense, idn't it?

Rick

w4rma
April 30, 2004, 11:11 AM
FUBAR.

Gordon Fink
April 30, 2004, 11:29 AM
Thank God that stalwart defender of the Second Amendment, George W. Bush, is President of the United States!

~G. Fink :rolleyes:

Joe Demko
April 30, 2004, 11:31 AM
BOHICA

armoredman
April 30, 2004, 12:23 PM
This is truely stunning. You can't stop the violence in murder capitol DC by banning guns, so let's try the same BS in Iraq. Unbelieveable. Some of my coworkers went to Iraq to help rebuild thier prison industry, and they were issued an Ak, Browning HP and vest. Wonder if they've been confiscated....

jfh
April 30, 2004, 12:28 PM
the bureaucratic mentality?

I don't have time to expand this, so will someone else jump in--I'll be back later.

Sam Adams
April 30, 2004, 12:54 PM
As the insurgency and violence in Iraq intensify, the Department of Defense has proposed a new rule for most of the estimated 70,000 civilian contractors working in the war-torn region: They can't carry guns.

At the same time, a top Defense Department official this week acknowledged publicly for the first time that the war effort was suffering a "brain drain" of civilian workers who were fleeing Iraq because they didn't feel safe.

Gee, ya think there might be some connection?

If I were in Iraq or any other hostile place, there's NFW that I'd go unarmed. If it is so safe, why are the soldiers, Marines, security guards and Iraqi police armed? Any numbnuts that questioned my right to be armed would get a muzzle in the nose, followed quickly by the question "and what should I do if one of the locals does THIS to me?" If I got fired, so what - what is your life worth?

angrywalkindude
April 30, 2004, 01:35 PM
I was thinking about going, not now.

Jay Kominek
April 30, 2004, 02:24 PM
Deidre Lee, the Pentagon's director of procurement and acquisition policy, whose office proposed the weapons restriction, said it's designed to settle one of the biggest questions facing contractors: "to arm or not to arm."
Holy cow. Hello? The only solution was to take all the guns away?
It'd make more sense to require all the contracters carry guns. And have at least a modicum of training to go with them.
They'd suddenly make less appealing targets, too.

El Tejon
April 30, 2004, 04:40 PM
Corporate window dressing!:D

Get up on that cluephone and call corporate HQ. Tell the BoD that the employees never got around to that memo on policy.:D

Can't carry weapons.:rolleyes: Yeah, in D.C. and Chicago I was in strict compliance with their gun control laws too.:p

flatrock
April 30, 2004, 04:49 PM
And by picking up weapons, contractors could lose any death and accident insurance coverage they may have.

The company you work for is sending you into a war zone, and you're death and accident insurance doesn't cover you if you pick up a weapon? Quit. Don't work for that company. They obviously aren't looking out for you and are sending you into harm's way.

dance varmint
April 30, 2004, 04:55 PM
I truly haven't heard of such insanity and absurdity since reading Catch-22. That this is going on in the real world leaves me speechless.

Joe Demko
April 30, 2004, 04:56 PM
Believe I'd rather work for Pizza Hut than under those restrictions. No, wait...:scrutiny:

fix
April 30, 2004, 04:58 PM
That this is going on in the real world leaves me speechless.

It's not going on in the real world. It's going on in the mind of the morons at DoD who have nothing better to do than observe things that fail in the real world, yet wonder if they'll work in theory.

Apologies to President Reagan for stealing/modifying his line.

gyp_c2
April 30, 2004, 05:01 PM
The insurance trump card...what in the world did we do before someone came along and paid us to get hurt and die...well pay them of course, until we get hurt and die!

We won't cover you if you protect yourself?

... Did they really say this?



...And by picking up weapons, contractors could lose any death and accident insurance coverage they may have.



http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/moon.gif

seeker_two
April 30, 2004, 09:25 PM
Maybe if we made our soldiers go into Iraq unarmed, they'd be safer too...:rolleyes:

telomerase
April 30, 2004, 09:36 PM
As the insurgency and violence in Iraq intensify, the Department of Defense has proposed a new rule for most of the estimated 70,000 civilian contractors working in the war-torn region: They can't carry guns.

That makes sense... we can't have those vicious medical workers and oil experts go in there and swagger around. What would stop them from torturing helpless Iraqis?

Any pro-war people like to defend the DoD on this one?

Quartus
April 30, 2004, 09:52 PM
"It doesn't appear to be a well-thought-out, coherent policy," Sanders said.





Understatement of the year!


What gave you the first clue, Sherlock? :fire:



And to think my employer is seriously considering a project over there.....



Uh, no, I won't be going. Why do you ask? :D

carpettbaggerr
May 1, 2004, 03:41 AM
Is this article for real? Here's a better idea -- Disarm the Iraqis. Too simple?

Hal
May 1, 2004, 08:06 AM
The same policy was in effect is SE Asia 35 years ago.
civilian contractors is the key.

We had a recruiter for civilain contracotors (welding) come to our high school in 1968 offering all sorts of money to anyone intersted in switching over to a trade school, then going over to Viet Nam to ply their new found trade. One of the first questions asked was what types of arms we'd be allowed to carry.

None - was the response. Protection was to be provided by the military.

The policy was largly ignored then as I'm sure it will be now.

I've know quite a few of the civilian contractors that put in time over there through the years. Every single one of them packed when they were there.

Highland Ranger
May 1, 2004, 10:32 AM
The problem here is this underlying current in this country - don't fight back leave it to the "professionals" .

Worked real well on 9/11 - everyone waited for the professionals figuring if they didn't fight back they'd be safe.

We'd better get back to encouraging personal accountability or we are doomed as a culture.

HankB
May 3, 2004, 10:26 AM
Even when you're armed to the teeth, it's STILL dangerous in Iraq. There is NO WAY that ANY civilian job would be worth my being over there unarmed.

The inmates really ARE running the asylum.

RealGun
May 3, 2004, 11:15 AM
If the Pentagon saw civilian contractors as a problem, I can't think of a better way to invite them all to go home. The Pentagon did not have to ban contractors outright, did they? The irony is that when all those jobs were taken over by the Army, the personnel would definitely be armed. I think the real issue is accountability for shootings. If they imagine that unarmed Iraqis can fill the jobs, I wish them luck.

The Pentagon wants to do their best to be politically correct in the view of the Iraqis. They also do not want to be distracted by the need to retrieve civilian contractors taken as hostages. No, the message is clear that contracting personnel for dangerous areas is no longer a lucrative business. This was a broad invitation for all contractors to leave Iraq and for others to stop coming.

I still have an issue with the US sponsored interim Constitution for Iraq banning guns categorically. Iraqis have the right of self defense like anyone else, and who will return their guns when it is all over? When will it be over? Note that Iraqis are not cooperating. Would we? What I would ban during a period of martial law is aggressive public brandishing. Anyone openly carrying gun in hand is a potential target in my opinion.

Desertdog
May 3, 2004, 11:35 AM
Whom ever thought up this stupid idea, needs to spend 30 days driving fuel trucks in Iraq without firearms.:evil:
Bet they would change ther minds about this rule.:p

FRIENDLY
May 3, 2004, 09:39 PM
Where are the people making this decision based? DAMMNED sure it is the continental US not anywhere near the shooting.warm and safe 9-5.00 hrs.IF you want to change this stupid decision put the bosses WITH family over there and see and hear the screaming

seeker_two
May 3, 2004, 09:49 PM
I still have an issue with the US sponsored interim Constitution for Iraq banning guns categorically. Iraqis have the right of self defense like anyone else, and who will return their guns when it is all over? When will it be over? Note that Iraqis are not cooperating. Would we?

In the April 2004 American Rifleman (page 61), the writer tells the story about how an Iraqi citizen was being carjacked by three scumbags. The Iraqi was trying to get the American soldiers to help, but then had to draw & fire his Colt .25ACP at the scumbags. The carjackers high-tailed it out of there....

...but the US soldiers confiscated the Iraqi's pistol before releasing him back into the same neighborhood. AFTER A F-:cuss: -ING SELF-DEFENSE SHOOTING!!! :fire:

The most disturbing thing was that the author seemed OK w/ that action....

What other actions will our politicians, the NRA, & some soldiers be "OK" with?... :scrutiny:

Obiwan
May 4, 2004, 08:16 AM
I wouldn't dream of stopping a good rant....

But...

" proposed a rule saying that civilian contractors who accompany the military in battle areas can't carry private firearms unless they received permission"

So...it doesn't say no weapons for contractors....

It says you need permission...IF... you are with the troops in battle areas.

So...Joe Blow from Kokomo needs permisssion to carry a loaded weapon rather than trusting his life to the troops with the big guns.

Don't get me wrong....if I was ambushed, I would prefer to shoot back just on principle...even with a sidearm...just to feel like I was doing SOMETHING...

But......

While I may not completely agree with this...I don't see the sky falling

RealGun
May 4, 2004, 10:03 AM
While I may not completely agree with this...I don't see the sky falling

I think we have been conditioned to see these things as inroads by a grander plan. "The sky is falling" often turns out to be an accurate projection. In any case, everything tends to get closely examined.

If you think about why the interim Iraqi Constitution says "no guns", period, and the fact that non-military people have guns, while the Constitution is intended to be enforced, you start to get the picture. Only armies and law enforcement should have guns. No justification based solely upon self defense will be recognized, because it obviously would create a case to allow Iraqis to have guns. The US Pentagon then is saying that there is no inherent right of self defense.

If you enjoyed reading about "Pentagon: Contractors in Iraq must be unarmed" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!