[The Scandinavian]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1206725,00.html

That should help the Iraqis to understand what America is about, and spread cultural understanding around the world...

[John G]

The article mentions pictures as proof, but I didn't see any. Did I miss the link, or haven't pictures been released yet?

[DTLoken]

I heard a US General of some sort speaking about this on the radio talking about how disgraceful this is.

If these soldiers are guilty of torture then they should be spending quite a while in Levinworth.

[telewinz]

Saw two pics on the CBS evening news. They said courtmartials were in process for the OIC and some soldiers of the military prison. If the pics are accurate, I feel the ones involved should be punished.

[horge]

I wouldn't have thought they'd ever release the most damning photos.
60 II's online summary of its own televised report:

60 Minutes II: Abuse Of Iraqi POWs By GIs Probed (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml)











.

[The Scandinavian]

Hi John

CBS has the pictures apparently, they were to be released on the "60 minutes II" programme. I don't know if that's happened yet.

There is a link on CBS news web site
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml
but it's pretty much the same story as the Guardian article, there are no pictures there.

I did find pictures at
http://houston.indymedia.org/news/2004/04/28819.php
which appear to be the ones in question, and the same on Sydney Morning Herald's website:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/29/1083224523783.html

Regards

T.S.

[c_yeager]

The point that stands out here is that this has come to light as a result of an investigation of AMERICAN forces conducted BY american forces. How many nations would have swept this under the rug?

[BamBam-31]

Man, those pics just make me ill. :barf:

[John G]

Looks bad, alright. if the pictures are accurate, the folks responsible should be locked up. The US treats it's prisoners better than any other nation on the planet. If these prisoners were maltreated, it's an exception, certainly not the rule.

On the one site linked previously in this thread, posters compared Americans to Nazis. I have to think that opinion is based in ignorance. Or maybe it's just misguided anger. Anyone who knows anything about the Holocaust wouldn't trivialize it's horror by equating it with this.

[The Scandinavian]

It came to light because one soldier had the decency to blow the whistle on what was going on. THEN it was investigated and action taken.

[DTLoken]

Oh god, after seeing those photos. What a bunch of ????ing morons.


These people need HARSH punishments to set an example to other soldiers, and to the Iraqis.

It's the only way we're going to save any face with the Iraqi people. Damn those photos are disgusting.

[The Scandinavian]

On the one site linked previously in this thread, posters compared Americans to Nazis. I have to think that opinion is based in ignorance.

Of course with pictures like this, and the 'tank crushing taxi" video going around it's hard to blame them.

Having said that, of course we aren't going to see pictures and videos of "GI's being nice to people" - that isn't going to sell newspapers...

[c_yeager]

It came to light because one soldier had the decency to blow the whistle on what was going on. THEN it was investigated and action taken.

Ok how SHOULD it have happened then?

[LD]

That should help the Iraqis to understand what America is about,.....

That IS NOT what the U.S. is about, and only the intellectually lazy would think otherwise. Absolutely no excuses, but these events happen in EVERY war regardless of the country involved. Name the conflict and historical the record will show it to be true.

Should the evidence presented prove to be accurate, as it appears to be, the soldiers responsible in this case will be tried and convicted, and deservedly so.

[feedthehogs]

Its very difficult when thrown from peaceful existence to a place where people are not only trying to kill you, but will torture you if captured. Seeing people blown away next to you, being covered in body parts and fluids does something to a person. Most deal with it at the time. Some develop problems later. Others lash out right away. Still others are just nut cases from the beginning and the lack of supervision makes these situations possible.

Anybody ever see what the VC did to a GI if captured most of the time? You were lucky if you made it to a camp. It made you so angry that while you were trying to fight fair, that your combatants were slicing and dicing your buddies alive.

My Uncle was a POW in WWII. What the Japanese did to him over the course of 9 months led to a lifetime of pain and suffering. Not to mention the daily diet of maggots for food.

While not condoned behavior in my book, I can certainly understand it.

[Partisan Ranger]

Americans don't do this stuff, or shouldn't. These people, if convicted, should be court martialed and put in jail for about 5 years each.

I can't believe they were dumb enough to take photographs?!?

[crewchief]

Like everyone says it only a few bad apples. This is truly a dark day to see our men and women acting in such a way. I say court martial them and then see how they like to be "poked" and humiliated in prison.

[Sean Smith]

My prediction: at court-martial these guys will get alot more than 5 years. Conspiracy, Cruelty and Maltreatment, Unlawful Detention, Maiming, Assault... about 1/3 of the UCMJ can be dropped on their heads. And the military prison at Leavenworth is Not a Nice Place.

Some folks on this forum do seem to positively relish any pretext for bashing American soldiers, however... :barf:

[WT]

“The soldier, be he friend or foe, is charged with the protection of the weak and unarmed. It is the very essence and reason of his being. When he violates this sacred trust, he not only profanes his entire cult but threatens the fabric of international society.”

General of the Army Douglas MacArthur

[Joe Demko]

What the VC did, what the Japanese did, or what the Iraqis did is not germane. What matters here is what Americans did as compared to what Americans are supposed to do.

[Thumper]

Actually, Golgo, you make a good point. It seems all societies have their fair share of scumbags that find their way into the armed forces. What's germane is what we do with our miscreants.

If this is true, these morons will spend a considerable amount of time at Leavenworth.

[Viking6]

First, the treatment is unacceptable, criminal and truly un-American. Second, this is an arrow in the enemy quiver that puts the mission and our forces at greater risk. The proper authorities will take the proper legal action but those sickening images will be hard to push back in the bottle. Side note vis a vis them getting theirs in Leavenworth; as I get older I personally get more uncomfortable with the thought of depending on other criminals exacting justice for society in prison.

[tiberius]

What the VC did, what the Japanese did, or what the Iraqis did is not germane. What matters here is what Americans did as compared to what Americans are supposed to do. ...and it is being taken care of. We don't have 100K+ saints over there. Like every other cross section of America, some of them are jerks ... these have been identified as such and WILL be dealt with. This is the American way and what seperates us from the rabble we are fighting.

Remember, this was uncovered from WITHIN the armed forces.

[longeyes]

It is appalling and disgraceful--and it's being dealt with, as it should be.

But it is not representative of America, although some of our enemies abroad and within would have the world believe it's so. Americans are not saints or demons; we are, on the whole, pretty damn good human beings, as the world turns.

[hops]

Saw this on CBS Wednesday night - pure chance. Not good to say the least.
It really only matters how Iraqis preceive this when they see the news about this. These American Idiots who participated in this just destroyed 12 months of goodwill in that region. One person interviewed, a Ret. Army Lt. Col or so, has his son in Iraq and his concern is how the Iraqi's might pay us back 10 or 100th fold when they get wind of this.

Some of the pictures they showed were bad. If Al-Jazeed gets hold of this CBS tape....................

30 years hard labour as sentences is just a starting point for the participants in this.

Edited to add:

just read a online German rag and the British Military is also investigating 8 cases of possible misconduct against Iraqi POW's. So US troops do not have an
exclusive on mis-treatment of Iraqi troops.

[outfieldjack]

And the military prison at Leavenworth is Not a Nice Place.

They got room for some female soldiers in that place?

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

Somewhere around a third of Iraqi families have a member who was severely tortured of killed by Saddam's security services. They have a good grasp on what constitutes torture and will likely consider this to be small potatos.

This incident will not change the favorable impression most Iraqi's have of the US. In fact it could have just the opposite effect if the bad actors are prosecuted and punished as Saddams henchmen never were.

Just another opportunity for the smug, arrogant Euro-lefties and their amen chorus in the US news media to get their panties in a wad over the latest US misstep in Iraq.

Where was the European consternation over the Balkan death camps just a few short years ago? Or the gratitude to the US for stepping into shut these European death camps down...again.

[R.H. Lee]

Maybe I'm missing something. I see they are naked and humiliated, but where's the torture? Torture means things like testicle crushing, spikes under fingernails, eyelids cut off, etc.

[davec]

Here's a link to a UK Tabloid which published some of the pictures:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/tm_objectid=14195963%26method=full%26siteid=50143%26headline=outrage%2dat%2damerican%2dtorture%2dof%2diraqi%2dprisoners-name_page.html

[fix]

You don't consider forced oral sex with a fellow prisoner torture? :confused:

[hops]

Small potatoes??

Humans do not like to be degraded in any manner - especially by outsiders of their society.

I've seen the pictures. We're talking about men stripped naked and potrayed in simulated homosexual acts / sexual acts and other disgusting things. Show this on muslim TV and stand back.

It does not take a big spark to set off an explosion in a room with gas fumes.

[tiberius]

You don't consider forced oral sex with a fellow prisoner torture? I've only seen references to "simulated sex" It seems more "humiliation" than "torture" but since the faces are covered in the photos it isn't even real "humiliation".

As I said in my post above, these actions are still VERY wrong and the soldiers guilty of it will be dealt with. We should be proud that our military does NOT condone this stuff and will deal with it appropriately. These soldiers will spend time in jail at least one general will have her career ruined. Our guys are the GOOD guys, but like any large organization they have some idiots in their midst. No big deal...they will be taken care of.

[warmi]

Yeah it is bad.

S*** happens when you get 200 000 young people together.
The guilty will be punished and the justice will be served.

The only long term down side is that these sort of unfortunate accidents are being used by people resentful of US power and prominence as an example of our supposed "depravity" ( The Scandinavian, Al Jazeera etc ..)

[Firethorn]

I am a member of the United States Military. Specifically the Air Force. What they did went beyond the pale. How can you get to be an NCO and not ever had LOAC (Law Of Armed Conflict) training? The guy was even a prison guard in the USA! :eek: I wonder how he acted in that prison?

I support throwing the book at them. What they did violated the rules & regulations contained within the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice), the Spirit, and the goal of the US Military in Iraq.

:fire: :cuss: :banghead:

They won't be spending 5 years in prison. I hope they serve 40.

[OF]

Riley is right, in a way. The 'soldiers' who did this should go away for a long time, but our idea of torture and the middle east's idea of torture are two completely different things.

What was done to these prisoners is beneath us, and not only that but I'm sure will serve to further destabalize Iraq just at a time when we can least afford it. But the humiliation and debasement these prisoners suffered is, literally, small potatoes in comparison.

Make no mistake, that's not dismissing or condoning the acts in any way. Just trying to get some perspective. In order to prevent others from doing the same thing, these publicly outed 'soldiers' need to be dealt with as an example. A public example. Stabalizing Iraq is the most important thing. A court martial and sentencing with photos of the perpetrators led away in chains to prison could go along way towards improving the success of our hearts & minds campaign.

If the Iraqis see that we take their treatment seriously, and are dealing harshly with those who step out of line, even for what, as was said above I'm sure the general Iraqi population sees as 'small potatoes' on the torture front, then we could get a positive result from this, not a negative one.

Keep your eye on the ball.

- Gabe

[Waitone]

If the pictures are legit and if an investigation bears out the facts which appear in the picture, then the perps need to be skinned per the UCMJ.

That said, all the perps need to be skinned. I say that because I heard a report claiming the command element of the prison had no training in running a deterntion facility. None of the guards had any training. The CO repeatedly asking for training or to be relieved. One report I heard. If that is true then the list of perps extends quite a ways up the ladder.

I don't want a bunch of morons performing the kinds of acts and likewise I don't want a bunch of morons further up the ladder to skate. If there soldiers were put into a situation where they had no training, and training was refused by higher commnad, then a number of head need to roll.

I am not a big fan of Rummy. He is wanting to run a war on the cheap. Many of his early decisions are beginning to bite us in the butt now. If he set the operational parameter that prohibited proper training thien his butt needs to be in the sling right next to the prison's CO.

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

Small potatoes??

Humans do not like to be degraded in any manner - especially by outsiders of their society.


Most of the Iraqis I have known over the past 25 years would laugh in your face if you described what the GI's did as "torture." Then they'd get angry about your denigrating thier experience with genuine torture under Saddam.

Were these prisoners shoved feet first into wood chippers as they would have been by Uday? No.

Were these prisoners forced to watch as their wives and daughters were raped and murdered in front of their eyes as they would have been under Saddam? No.

Small potatos.

I hate to sound callous, but given the first hand accounts of genuine torture I have heard from Iraqis under Saddam, when I heard this incident described as torture I laughed out loud.

Just more propaganda from the extremist left-wing anti-American news media and their amen chorus in the Dim-o-Rat(tm) party trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill before the Nov. elections in the US.

[Iain]

Part of it is that this is the same prison that figured in Saddam's regime.

The possibility is that this will be interpreted as 'new regime, nothing changes' by the Iraqi people.

[Nightcrawler]

The first thing I thought when I read this is that having a naughty word written on you in magic marker, having a bag over your head, and being forced to "simulate a sex act" with someone isn't really torture, per say. When I think "torture" I think having a glass rod shoved into your penis and shattered, or having hot pokers stuck in all manner of bodily orfice, being stung by scorpions, etc.

This is obviously a case of prisoner abuse, but calling it torture, in my opinion, is the same as the press calling it an arsenal when the cops arrest some felon who has three guns and five hundred rounds of ammo. Just sensationalism to get people to read/watch.

In any case, the general in charge of the prison (don't recall her name), an MP Brigadier General, has been suspended and is apparently pending a court martial.

Everyone involved in this incident should be tracked down and court martialed. What's more, the Iraqi people should be made AWARE of their court martial. We have several radio stations in Iraq, with much listenership. We should report it over those radio stations when those who are found guilty are sent to prison.

One thing I've noticed is that there was a Reserve MP unit involved in this, and some articles have made the connection that this has happened because they're in the reserves or something. That's bullcrap. We in the reserve component know the UCMJ as well as anyone else. I've gotten classes on the Geneva Convention and how to deal with EPWs.

And even if you haven't gotten a class on treatment of EPWs, it's in a number of Army manuals (I think including the little "smart book" they give you in AIT). And, there's some common sense involved, too.

"HMM! Perhaps acting like a jackass and making this prisoner do this stuff isn't really in the best interest of the mission? MAYBE?"

God. :rollleyes:

I'm apalled all right. I'm apalled that people that dumb can achieve such rank in the Army.

[The Scandinavian]

c_yeager:

Sorry to be so slow getting back to this - I've been away from the computer.



quote:It came to light because one soldier had the decency to blow the whistle on what was going on. THEN it was investigated and action taken.



Ok how SHOULD it have happened then?


In your first post you said that it came to light as the result of an american investigation.

My reply was to point out that it came to light as the result of a soldier doing the honorable thing.

There is a subtle but significant difference.

[WT]

nightcrawler - you are referring to Brigadier General Janice Karpinski. She was CO of the 800th MP Brigade. She was replaced by a general from Gitmo.

I read some articles about her. She served as a tour guide for reporters and politicians when they came to visit Saddam's prison, which is where this incident took place. She would explain all the torture devices Saddam left behind.

Maybe we should apply the Yamash*ta Precedent to Karpinski.

PS: THR won't let me spell a Japanese general's name.

[rick_reno]

For those that are taking the high road and stating this isn't what America is about - I suggest you read up on the 1971 experiment done at Stanford University by Professor Phil Zimbardo. What happened in this prison in Iraq is a classic example of what HUMANS do in an unsupervised prison/guard environment. I was at Stanford when this experiment took place, while most of what went on there has been forgotten - this episode is firmly implanted in my brain. I wish it weren't...

You can read all about here (http://www.prisonexp.org/)

[Nightcrawler]

We all know that this is an example of what humans are capable of. Mankind can be unimaginably cruel when he wants to be.

That said, it's no excuse. This wasn't unsupervised; they had a chain of command: officers, NCOs, etc. ALL OF WHOM knew better.

[Sean Smith]

OK, I went back and looked over all the pictures and all the articles I could find. It looks like this whole thing is being seriously overblown and doesn't really deserve the title of "torture."

Main Entry: 1tor·ture
Pronunciation: 'tor-ch&r
Function: noun
Etymology: French, from Late Latin tortura, from Latin tortus, past participle of torquEre to twist; probably akin to Old High German drAhsil turner, Greek atraktos spindle
1 a : anguish of body or mind : AGONY b : something that causes agony or pain
2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure

None of the stuff documented in the articles fits that description. Abuse and humiliation? Yes, it looks like a bunch of immature a-holes forced prisoners to do the kind of degrading, mock-"homo" acts that your typical fraternity would subject new pledges to 10 years ago. Calling that stuff "torture," however, now looks like some far-lefty "journalists" trying to whip up a story beyond what the facts will bear.

[Balog]

I was surprised when I read that US troops were torturing POW's. The report made it sound like they were hooking their genitals up to the old field telephones or something.

Looks like what they did was bad, but it's hardly torture. Just more sloppy use of the language to try to smear all American troops.

What these men did was wrong. I hope they get punished harshly. But the reporting is so biased and anti-soldier it makes me sick. :fire:

[fix]

Those of you who are downplaying this are forgetting one simple fact. The pictures that have been made available were not from a sting operation or a documentary. These were the pictures taken by those who did the abusing. This is not the complete story. Now imagine what went on off camera. If these troops were so crass as to take pictures of this BS, I don't care to imagine what was going on the rest of the time.

Warning: Graphic Image

And this (http://news.globalfreepress.com/movs/wonk/CBS/60Min/60MinII.US.IraqiTortured.7b.jpg) looks a little too close for simulation to me.

[Balog]

Good point fix. I'd missed that pic.

If any sexual contact was forced it would constitute torture.

[fix]

Personally, as a former NCO, if I had witnessed behavior such as this I would have immediately used physical force, up to and including deadly force, to put a stop to it. I would have placed the offenders under arrest and proceeded to deliver them to the first American officer I could find. The troops involved in this should get no less than 10 years and the NCOs should get life. Officers involved directly should get life.

I might be inclined to look the other way if the prisoners were given a good beating or two, but this is nothing short of complete sexual perversion. It is immoral, and it must be driven from the ranks without hesitation.

These worthless :cuss: just sealed the fate of the American hostages that have been taken. Their deaths will be on these soldiers hands. :banghead:

[Sean Smith]

If any sexual contact was forced it would constitute torture.

Definitely true. And rape has the death penalty under the UCMJ (rightly so, IMHO). But there is no hard evidence of that yet. Blurry digital pictures prove that... somebody has a copy of photoshop. Atrocity photos have already been doctored in this war, for instance.

Now imagine what went on off camera. If these troops were so crass as to take pictures of this BS, I don't care to imagine what was going on the rest of the time.

That is a logical fallacy. The absence of evidence is not evidence. We know (or think we know) that certain things happened based on what evidence is available, which ain't much. Based on the evidence available right now, what happened is pretty far from what most people would call "torture" with a straight face. Making people pretend to do sex acts and act in stupid/degrading ways is not torture, and that is what has been presented so far.

Incidentally, Nazis working in concentration camps took pictures of outright mass murders quite often. So the pictures don't say anything one way or the other, beyond what they actually show.

[fix]

Sean, I'm completely shocked that anyone is even making an attempt to defend these people. This act may very well have cost us the "hearts and minds" war with their disgusting display of perversion. If we persist in attempting to downplay what they did by debating semantics and arguing the definition of torture, then maybe we are deserving of the label "The Great Satan." I certainly am not rushing to judgement. What was displayed in these images is plenty of evidence for me to see that something seriously wrong was going on here.

[gyp_c2]

Looking at the known details is not defending...It will become known, but it isn't ...yet...That's all...and the "torture" is not in the "evidence" that's been presented to us yet...If it is, then whatever's dictated is I'm almost positive what they'll get... Lynching them at this point, is a bit premature...

...http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/bandit.gif

[Joe Demko]

Would any of you be so quick to rush to the defense of the BATFE if photos indicating they engaged in this sort of behavior were publicized?

[Thumper]

Huh?

Nobody's defending these actions, if they happened.

[mercedesrules]

(Sean Smith)Main Entry: 1tor·ture
Pronunciation: 'tor-ch&r
Function: noun
Etymology: French, from Late Latin tortura, from Latin tortus, past participle of torquEre to twist; probably akin to Old High German drAhsil turner, Greek atraktos spindle
1 a : anguish of body or mind :

http://news.globalfreepress.com/movs/wonk/CBS/60Min/60MinII.US.IraqiTortured.01.jpg
"If you move, you will be electrocuted!"

I guess I expected that some would talk about "It could have been worse" or "photoshop".

MR, extremist for liberty

[ninenot]

I would sure like to know what makes these GI's think that this abuse is acceptable treatment--for ANYONE, POW's or not. Has something changed in our society? This wasn't done in WWII, was it? Korea? Even Vietnam?

So here we are 40 years after Nam...and now this?

[Thumper]

Why would anyone have a problem with questioning the veracity of the photos???

This is pretty serious stuff. I can't speak for Sean, but it seems like he's saying let's get our ducks in a row before we hang these guys. Nothing wrong with that.

[ninenot]

rick_reno: one also recalls Tuskegee...

[Zedicus]

Personaly, I think they are faked photos from some "Creative" media bozo.

Either way, whoever is responsable deserves to be Hung!:fire:

[mercedesrules]

(Zedicus)Personaly, I think they are faked photos from some "Creative" media bozo.

Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of operations for the US military in Iraq, expressed his embarrassment and regret for what had happened. Gen Kimmitt said the investigation began in January when an American soldier reported the abuse and turned over evidence that included photographs. "That soldier said: 'There are some things going on here that I can't live with'."

[Thumper]

So hang 'em.

Simple.

I'm glad there's this much outcry when one of ours does the wrong thing. It reinforces my opinion that we're on the right side.

[joab]

Our soldiers could be taken prisoner as well. And we expect our soldiers to be treated well by the adversary, by the enemy. And if we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect … We can't ask that other nations to that to our soldiers as well." Anybody ever see what the VC did to a GI if captured most of the time? You were lucky if you made it to a camp. It made you so angry that while you were trying to fight fair, that your combatants were slicing and dicing your buddies alive. I think that's the point that the above statement is trying to make

To everybody who says this is small potatos and isn't so bad because the victims faces are covered.
Try to put yourself in their place. In a society where homosexuality is not just a sin but something worthy of a death penalty.
A society where a man being humiliated by a woman is as bad as if we were in a faked homo erotic photo.
Now consider this. If this was being done by the Iraqis would you feel that these were faceless Americans or would you feel that this was happening to your country and your national honor?

[Sean Smith]

Sean, I'm completely shocked that anyone is even making an attempt to defend these people.

For those who can read Standard American English, I'm not defending any misconduct these guys perpetrated. Try reading the words... :rolleyes:

For instance, it isn't often that saying people should be EXECUTED if they raped prisoners gets you dubbed a criminal apologist... :scrutiny:

For goodness sake, try growing a brain people. I'm talking about the evidence, specifically its limitations and ambiguity. Not the "goodness" of degrading, abusing or mistreating prisoners. I would have thought grown ups could understand that sort of distinction.

I guess I expected that some would talk about "It could have been worse" or "photoshop".

Well, the "photoshop" has actually happened, on this forum no less. So bringing it up is quite self-evidently relevant. Can I get a "duh"?

And it isn't a question of "it could have been worse," it is a question of actually having evidence. Funny how some of you will complain about the media's mendacity all day long, then suddenly take what they say as the Gospel truth based on vague reporting and some blurry digital photos.

Critical thinking, anyone? Try it, it can be fun. ;)

For instance, let's look at the photo mercedesrules posted... from the point of view of a non-hysteric.

It is a picture of a guy in a silly outfit with wires. It may be evidence of mistreatment (assuming there is further evidence the person was forced to put on a silly outfit and wires). What it isn't is evidence of torture, since the person is standing there with no apparent injuries or discomfort. All we have to go on are some blurry pictures like this one and vaguely-worded articles written by excitable writers, yet the conclusion is somehow, "hang 'em high!"

:rolleyes:

What is sad here is the witch-hunt mentality on this forum, and selective blind faith in what the media puts out. For those who actually read my posts, instead of knee-jerking around like champs, I said these folks need to be punished for whatever they did, up to and including execution if they are found guilty of sufficiently grave acts. What was it I said again? Oh, yeah:

My prediction: at court-martial these guys will get alot more than 5 years. Conspiracy, Cruelty and Maltreatment, Unlawful Detention, Maiming, Assault... about 1/3 of the UCMJ can be dropped on their heads. And the military prison at Leavenworth is Not a Nice Place.

And I also said this:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If any sexual contact was forced it would constitute torture.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Definitely true. And rape has the death penalty under the UCMJ (rightly so, IMHO).

If y'all are going to personally attack me, try knowing what you are talking about first. It can be quite helpful. ;)

Out of concern for my health, I won't be holding my breath waiting for apologies. :D

Looking at the known details is not defending...It will become known, but it isn't ...yet...That's all...and the "torture" is not in the "evidence" that's been presented to us yet...If it is, then whatever's dictated is I'm almost positive what they'll get... Lynching them at this point, is a bit premature...

Bingo. But the lunatic fringe sees things differently.

[Zip06]

As a retired Army officer I feel compelled to comment. These soldiers acted in this way because they were not supervised. They acted in this way in the absense of SOP's, proper training and horrible leadership. This is not about a wayward Reserve unit, its about an incompetent active duty General who did not either have control of her command or neglected it. Seems to me that the entire chain of command needs to have an Article 31 and then a General Courts Martial.

[Jeff Timm]

I want to approach this with a healthy dose of skeptism.

There are many people who would go to extreams and these photos smack of the alledgedly homosexual oriented photos taken by British troops.

I know there are a lot of people who don't want homosexuals in the military, because they fear this kind of abuse by people of questionable sanity.

Would they go to this kind of extream?

Would the Rabid Bush Haters (tm) go to this kind of extream?

Geoff Timm
Who agrees with Doctor Pournelle, http://www.jerrypournelle.com we should have started training occupation troops as soon as the decision to invade was even discussed.
Who also didn't know the Defense Language Schools in San Francisco had been abolished, therefore we have no reliable translators. I think that's grounds to hang half the Clinton cabinet for treason.

[Drjones]

That should help the Iraqis to understand what America is about, and spread cultural understanding around the world... Go away, troll.

[hops]

Ok, Coolhand luke, I'd like to meet those Iraqis after they see the pics. I'm sure if the laugh they are the same segment of the population on this board who think this is not a big deal.

Fix has it. It's all about image and America's image because of these idots is now S(*&^ on a global stage. Image means a lot in life.

I saw the 60 minute thing. One of the perps is using that he had no training as a defence. What????? The (**&^????

Americans now need training in treating other Humans decently and respectfully?????? God help us all if this is reality!!!

My paternal Grandfather was a German Guard of British POWs in WWII. He was too old for combat by '39 when the mess began.

His last words to me when I last saw him 20 years ago were, after telling me a bit about his experiences were.

"Always remember to treat people as you wish to be treated."

he treated his POW's with simple human decentcy as his home and family was bombed by 1000 bomber raids. When it became his time to be locked up for 2-3 years in a British POW champ - his Brits indicated that Grand Pa Hops was an alright Jerry. Others who were not alright - well they had real problems.

[Waitone]

I tried to post this comment earlier but the server bombed out.

I caution the esteemed forum to avoid drawing iron clad conclusions based on photography. The reasons are obvious in the digital age. In a previous age of Vietnam there was a famous film clip broadcast that was later determined to be edited so as maximize propaganda value.

What was broad cast was a clip of a big burly US soldier butt-stroking a Vietnamese (what appeared to be a) civilian. Broadcast journalism being what it was then and now made major news of US atrocities.

Years later the entire film clip was shown and the implications were different. What was not broadcast was the part where two Vietnamexe civilians walked up to two US soldiers. One civilian pulls the pin on a grenade and stuffs it into the gear of one of the two US soldiers. He died. His buddy reacted by butt-stroking the other Vietnamese. Only a small part of reality was seen by the American public.

Now apart from being what I consider to be criminal conduct on the part of the broadcast media, a huge disservice was done to all US troops, not by the soldier but by the media.

Ever since that event I have been pathalogically skeptical of anything I see in "images", regardless of the technology. I was used just like that soldier and it will never be done again. All media lies until it is demonstrated to my satisfaction that it truths. Don't condemn until the facts are known.

[fix]

Sorry Sean. Emotions ran wild. :o

What is sad here is the witch-hunt mentality on this forum, and selective blind faith in what the media puts out.

Not blind faith on my part. I have watched this one develop slowly.

[Drjones]

Wise words, waitone.

And a very upsetting example. :fire:

[mercedesrules]

The points concerning altered photos are well-taken. I am basing my tendancy to believe the story on the facts that (1) Gen. Kimmitt seems to believe it and (2) the investigation is months old.

I, of course, admit that I don't know near enough to proclaim neither what happened nor what any punishment should be.

I'm saddened that any young american is put in the situation in the first place.

MR

[DTLoken]

Just more propaganda from the extremist left-wing anti-American news media and their amen chorus in the Dim-o-Rat(tm) party trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill before the Nov. elections in the US.

:rolleyes:

BOY am I glad you're not representing our country abroad.

Sure, forced homosexual sex acts (who knows what happened off camera) in front of your peers and captors is just a mere moll hill. Let me go puke.

We're above this sort of treatment, it might not be physicaly painful torture but it sure as hell is mentally harmful and humiliating, not to mention what it does to our public image in Iraq. Anyone who condones this sort treatment is either A. Mentally deficient or B. So blinded by their political views that they believe we can do no wrong.

Also Cool Hand Luke, please define anti-American, since you love declaring people as such at every chance.

[Art Eatman]

Sorry Zip06, but I don't think a lack of supervision is to blame. Most of my tour of occupation duty in S. Korea was unsupervised. I've been sorta rolling it around about guys I can remember from the outfit, and I just don't see any of us being that cruel. I served with guys who had been there during the combat; the outfit wasn't all newbie replacements.

:D An officer is a gentleman by act of Congress. For an enlisted man, it's an act of God. :D

Couldn't help myself,

Art

[Michigander]

Yup. Photoshop.

Next subject?

[Hkmp5sd]

While not trying to condone the actions of the soldiers, after having seen Iraqis dragging American bodies through the street and the random murder of American soldiers by car bombs, roadside bombs, suicide bombers and RPGs, and wondering if they may be next, it is not hard to see some guards crossing the line in dealing with prisoners.

Let the military courts convict them before we put their heads in the noose.

[Zip06]

Art - In Korea you served with AD soldiers not Reservists and you knew their MOS proficency. You had NCO's who checked everything and reported to some officer. You had annual inspections; current SOP's and ongoing training. In Iraq, in this instance apparently, their was no guidance; no MOS proficency; no NCO or officer leadership and a chain of command who couldn't or wouldn't do their job. Also you had at least one EM complaining and didn't get listened to until he got outside of his chain of command.

When I was a Sergeant...my job was to micro-manage and supervise. To set the performance bar and to insure my subordinates had the training and skills to perform. None of that in this unit. The General get the credit for this one IMHO.

[Marko Kloos]

Yup. Photoshop.

Next subject?


Must be comforting to go through life with blinders so tight that one refuses to even consider the evidence.

The freakin' Army admitted that it happened. The President of the United States doesn't seem to think it's Photoshopped, either.

[jdseven1]

I liked the part when the guardsman said they did not have any training. In the first part of the now to torture class is dont take pictures of you doing it.

[dadman]

What were the prisoners subjected to to get them to the point of submitting for the photos?

If we approve of abuse and torture outside of our borders, won't be too long before it gets used within our borders.
Fast forward some years. Patriot Act 1 & 2 are extended and mofified. Your organization is considered a threat to National Security. You and others are imprisoned. Would you want the same sadistic 'guards' playing with you like that?

[seeker_two]

Two things to remember....

1. These "tortured prisoners" were captured in the process of trying to KILL American & Allied soldiers & Iraqi citizens.

2. Since this happened b/c these "tortured prisoners" were captured & imprisoned by American/Allied forces, we should take immediate action to prevent further incidents.....


....no prisoners. :fire:


Continue....

[Feanaro]

Two things to remember....

1. These "tortured prisoners" were captured in the process of trying to KILL American & Allied soldiers & Iraqi citizens.

2. Since this happened b/c these "tortured prisoners" were captured & imprisoned by American/Allied forces, we should take immediate action to prevent further incidents.....


....no prisoners.

Jumpin' Jesus Christ the Savior on a Pogo stick! Where to start?

In reply to 1: that sounds like a pretty good justification for the enemy to kill and torture out soldiers. After all, we are trying to KILL their soldiers, right? :rolleyes:

Killing, torturing and/or mistreating prisoners is wrong. The same goes for surrendering soldiers. You are proposing that we MURDER any soldier that surrenders, anyone who offers himself up to our MERCY? Yee Gods! If you want America to win the war on terror, making us look as cruel as the terrorists isn't going to help.

[Oleg Volk]

Good treatment to captured soldiers is a good policy. In WW2, Germans were more willing to surrender to Amerians than to Russians...for good reasons.

[MinScout]

Wheather it's "torture" or not, it is very inprofessional behavior on the part of these "soldiers". I think the presence of more women in the ranks has lead to a relaxing of discipline in much of our armed forces.

[telomerase]

...then we have to assume that there's a lot worse going on that we don't know about. All you guys in favor of pre-emptive wars (but only against nations that don't have real weapons) should give some thought to how torturing POWs will affect the morale of the next place we invade. If they think they're going to be tortured to the point where they can't be allowed to be released anyway, they might decide to actually fight instead of run. And a lot more countries are going to experience a strong demand that their leaders come up with some WMDs to get them off the US "to invade" list.

[seeker_two]

Good treatment to captured soldiers is a good policy. In WW2, Germans were more willing to surrender to Amerians than to Russians...for good reasons.

True. And that same reputation made the German soldiers run like heck from later engagements. And that same reputation made terrorist attacks against the USSR a rare (& extremely hazardous) occurrence.

What SHOULD we do w/ these prisoners? Keep them for a few months or years & then releasing them back to their home countries (many of which sympathize w/ terrorist attacks against the US i.e. Syria, Iran, etc.) where they'll be able to pick up where they left off?

The more enemies you kill at the start, the fewer you have to deal with later---and the less you have to watch your back.

I'm against torture. I'm for serious censure & punishment for all those involved w/ this atrocity. But it never would have happened if we'd just provided them w/ a enemy's death in the first place...

Feanaro: You don't have to worry about them killing you if you kill them first...

[Joe Demko]

that same reputation made terrorist attacks against the USSR a rare (& extremely hazardous) occurrence.

You know this how? That would have been the same USSR that had claimed to invent nylon, the helicopter, and baseball? The same USSR that consistently claimed to not only meet, but exceed, their various 5 year plans? The same USSR that lied when the truth would have suited better when they got caught spying? But you'll take what they claimed about terrorism at face value? Even if they weren't the target of many terrorist acts, I would credit that more towards the fact that they sponsored so many terrorist groups than to any fearsome reputation on their part. Regardless, it should be at the bottom of this nation's "to do" list to ape the USSR. The day we become like them is the day when it, finally, "is time."

[telomerase]

And that same reputation made the German soldiers run like heck from later engagements.

Nonsense. The German Wermacht fought right through the battle of Berlin, and was still fighting when Doenitz finally told them to quit.

>And that same reputation made terrorist attacks against the USSR a rare (& extremely hazardous) occurrence.

That reputation generated millions of enemies for the Soviet leadership. True, a lot of those enemies were sold out by the Americans in Operation Keelhaul or exposed to the KGB by the CIA.

And in case you're not following current events closely, eventually that reputation turned the Russians against their own government and broke up the Soviet Empire. Are you really suggesting that we copy the Gulag, or are you just pulling our legs?

[Quartus]

Not ONE of our soldiers who tortured prisoners should spend ONE DAY in Leavenworth! :fire:



They should HANG.



And what our enemies do is NOT an excuse, justification, or explanation for this kind of behaviour on the part of American soldiers.

[seeker_two]

Gulag.......Camp X-Ray.......toe-MAY-toe......toe-MAH-toe......

You win wars by taking away your enemy's ability & willingness to fight. Enemy can't fight a war if they run out of soldiers AND if those remaining soldiers are physically & psychologically overwhelmed by your war machine.

I prefer that we win this war as quickly & definitively as possible. And that we don't have to re-fight it later. You don't have to worry about fighting a dead enemy at a later date.

Take it as you will....

[bigjim]

hops said: Small potatoes??

Humans do not like to be degraded in any manner - especially by outsiders of their society.

I've seen the pictures. We're talking about men stripped naked and potrayed in simulated homosexual acts / sexual acts and other disgusting things. Show this on muslim TV and stand back.

It does not take a big spark to set off an explosion in a room with gas fumes.



It was shown on Muslim Tv..... oh wait that was aid workers being killed stripped burned mutilated and hung from a bridge. My bad your right this stuff really pisses those Muslims off.

[Art Eatman]

Zip06, if "In Iraq, in this instance apparently, their was no guidance; no MOS proficency; no NCO or officer leadership and a chain of command who couldn't or wouldn't do their job." is correct, our ongoing efforts are jeopardized more than I believed. I doubt this is the only instance of these parameters, in our non-line-outfits.

bigjim, you're an optimist if you don't think there's a double-standard. After all, we are indeed infidels in their eyes. For emotion-driven antagonists, whatever they do is okay; whatever we do is wrong.

Art

[DTLoken]

It was shown on Muslim Tv..... oh wait that was aid workers being killed stripped burned mutilated and hung from a bridge. My bad your right this stuff really pisses those Muslims off.

They weren't exactly aid workers from what I remember. Weren't they "security contractors"? *coughmercenariescough*

That doesn't mean their treatment wasn't horrible, mutilating bodies is just wrong.

[joab]

But it never would have happened if we'd just provided them w/ a enemy's death in the first place... So are you advocating executing surrendering Iraqis to prevent their torture in the hands of American jailers

[seeker_two]

So are you advocating executing surrendering Iraqis to prevent their torture in the hands of American jailers

Kinda answers itself, doesn't it...:D

[joab]

So exactly what was your MOS in the military

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

joab:

To everybody who says this is small potatos and isn't so bad because the victims faces are covered.
Try to put yourself in their place. In a society where homosexuality is not just a sin but something worthy of a death penalty.
A society where a man being humiliated by a woman is as bad as if we were in a faked homo erotic photo.
Now consider this. If this was being done by the Iraqis would you feel that these were faceless Americans or would you feel that this was happening to your country and your national honor

This is bad. No argument there. But it is not as bad as what was going on during the Saddam regime.

Compared to what was routinely meted out during the Saddam years this is truly small potatos and is noteworthy mainly because it is extremely unusual for the Americans to be involved in it.

I doubt many Iraqis are impressed by these pictures.

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

hops:

Ok, Coolhand luke, I'd like to meet those Iraqis after they see the pics. I'm sure if the laugh they are the same segment of the population on this board who think this is not a big deal


Your post is kind of incoherent in the 2nd part.

I'm sure if the laugh they are the same segment of the population on this board who think this is not a big deal

Sorry, you lost me here. I honestly don't know what you are trying to say. Try proofing your posts.

The best I can do for you is repeat my point again, most Iraqi's have first hand experience with family members and or friends who have suffered far worse than the petty humiliation doled out by these American jailers.

And again, the Iraqis I have known over the past quarter century wouldn't be impressed with this at all. It doesn't even begin to rise to the level of what occurred during the Saddam regime.

I can still recall staying with a Iraqi friend and his family, where he explained to me how he and his wife did not dare to ever refer to Sadam by name in front of their 4 children. This, even though they were living here in the US. They were afraid that when they returned to Iraq, one of their children might naively repeat a statement overheard at home critical of Saddam, and get the entire family killed. They knew families where that had happened. If they wanted to discuss the news from home they would retire to the bedroom and whisper the latest news about "Mr. X" They were afraid to refer to him by name in front of their children. That's what it was like under Saddam. That's the fear the Iraqis lived under. What the GI's did to those Iraqi prisoners was bad. But it is small potatos compared to what routinely happened under Saddam. I doubt that it is making much of an impression on the Iraqis.

The only people making a big deal out of this is the Western news media. It's great anti-War propaganda for them.

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

telomerase:

And in case you're not following current events closely, eventually that reputation turned the Russians against their own government and broke up the Soviet Empire. Are you really suggesting that we copy the Gulag, or are you just pulling our legs?

My impression is that the work the KGB did is still very well respected in Russia. It's not exactly a nation of Sharanskys.

The KGB was seen by the majority of Russians as a protector of the Nation, not an oppressor.

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

DLToken:

BOY am I glad you're not representing our country abroad.

Me too. Been there, done that. it's mostly a dung heap not worth the effort.

Sure, forced homosexual sex acts (who knows what happened off camera) in front of your peers and captors is just a mere moll hill. Let me go puke.

Are you talking about Iraq or a party at Barney Frank's house? :barf:

Conducted your own investigation have you. Pretty dang impressive of you to have tried and convicted these GI's in only 24 hours since the pictures were released.

We're above this sort of treatment, it might not be physicaly painful torture but it sure as hell is mentally harmful and humiliating, not to mention what it does to our public image in Iraq. Anyone who condones this sort treatment is either A. Mentally deficient or B. So blinded by their political views that they believe we can do no wrong.

Wow, you mean everybody who disagrees with your assessment of the severity of this incident is condoning it? Must be a pretty grim universive you live in.

[Justin]

You know, as a graphic designer I was all set to sit down and do a bit of PhotoShop analysis to see if I could figure out if these were faked in PhotoShop or not, and then post a big ol' analysis of the whole thing. (One question: if these are fakes, would someone be willing to point out where the original images are that were used as the elements for the fakes?)

However, it seems that those crying 'Fake!' would be dissuaded by none of this.

To be completely blunt, I'm appalled at the lack of humanity displayed by some of you who've posted in this thread.

Way to go.
Way to take The High Road.

[joab]

This is bad. No argument there. But it is not as bad as what was going on during the Saddam regime. SO? They ain't Saddam they're American and should act accordinglyI doubt many Iraqis are impressed by these pictures. You're wrong about that the seem to be fairly pissed along with the rest of the Arab worldhttp://www.rr.com/flash/index.cfm

[Quartus]

most Iraqi's have first hand experience with family members and or friends who have suffered far worse than the petty humiliation doled out by these American jailers.


Situational ethics? Grading on a moral curve?


What Saddam did (or Russians or VC or whoever) has NOTHING to do with whether or not this is wrong.

[1911Tuner]

Or simply taking out some frustrations that are born in a killing field?

We had a saying in the 'Nam:

"The meanest animal in the woods is a 19 year-old kid with a rifle in his hands who has just lost a friend who was closer than a brother."

While I don't condone mistreatment, it's easy to understand how it can
happen....at least it is for those iof us who have "Been there, Done that."

What's obvious by some of the responses here is that many don't understand war zones..and what can take place when you're scared, pissed, and in position to return violence for violence. The mentality
of "Time for a little payback"...and "Payback is a B**tch" was born in
war zones such as the one that we are into now.

Another obvious point is that the folks who really think that they can
be involved with something like that and maintain a level head and an
air of professionalism should try it and see how "moral and good" that they are. You may be shocked at your own actions after 90 days in the mire.
After about 6 months, you could literally disembowel one of them alive and
feel quite good about it. It would bother you greatly 10 years down the road...but not at the moment. Guaranteed.

When you've been through the fire and the blood and the terror of a
killing field with a bunch of other guys, you get closer to your comrades
than you are with your own family....How many of us could see a group
of people kill and maim our family members and NOT want to beat them
sensless when we come face-to-face with members of that group...whether
we knew that those individuals were directly responsible or not? Damn few, I'd wager...and quote ridiculous odds.

So, before anybody goes passing judgement on the men and women who are there...Walk a "Klick" in their shoes, won't you?

"A bunch of us went to Gettysburg. Some of us didn't come back. If you
weren't there, you'll never understand."
--Unknown Infantryman--

Tuner----------->out!

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

Quartus:

Situational ethics? Grading on a moral curve?


What Saddam did (or Russians or VC or whoever) has NOTHING to do with whether or not this is wrong

Let me repeat myself,

What the Americans did to those prisoners is wrong.


















OK, and...

Compared to Saddams atrocities, this is small potatos. No mass graves involved here like with Saddam.

















.

[Tamara]

So, before anybody goes passing judgement on the men and women who are there...

Oh, I don't have to pass any judgement on them; a court martial will do that for me. Hope they enjoy Leavenworth.

The troops in those photos have smeared the good name of the American soldier.

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

joab:


You're wrong about that the seem to be fairly pissed along with the rest of the Arab world


You need to stop taking as the Gospel truth everything you read in the press. The overwhelming majority of which is rabidly anti-American.

the coverage of the Iraqi war has been biased against the Coalition to the point where, for example, the British Navy stopped providing the BBC broadcasts to the sailors, at their request.

I am extremely unimpressed with the link you have provided. I'll go with my personal experience instead.

[1911Tuner]

Oh, I don't have to pass any judgement on them; a court martial will do that for me.

No doubt.
___________________

Hope they enjoy Leavenworth.

There are worse things...

_____________________

Not tryin' to condone anything. Atrocity is atrocity...It's just a sore
spot with me to see the media hype an isolated incident as the status quo
in order to undermine our efforts and our troops' morale. I had bags of
dog s*it thrown at me for being a "Baby Killer"...even though I never killed one, and I never saw it happen. What I did see was some good Marines killed and crippled in an effort to SAVE a few. I saw a few blown apart
by a booby-trapped kid when they handed the kid a handful of hard candy
or a tin of "Cs"...

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

Justin:

To be completely blunt, I'm appalled at the lack of humanity displayed by some of you who've posted in this thread.

Way to go.
Way to take The High Road.


Hows the air way up there on the moral high ground?

Seems like the ones who want to makea mountain out of a mole hill over this are the ones name calling, denigrating their debate opponents with ad hominem attacks, etc.

What the Americans did is small potatos compared to the atrocities committed by the Saddam regime. Cry a river if you like, it won't turn this American prison in Iraq into the Gulag Archipeligo.

[Tamara]

It ain't a mole hill.

It's the good name of the American fighting man that has been blemished by these individuals.

These soldiers have, figuratively speaking, hiked a leg on every tombstone at Arlington.

Fortunately, although some folks at home seem to be willing to cut them some slack, I can just about guaran-damn-tee that the Army won't.


As far as the "Don't judge them... under strain... seen horrible things..." argument goes, that cuts no ice. How come when we have a person violate the armed robbery statutes at home, we scoff at those who claim it was the young man's horrible environment that made him do it and hold him accountable for his actions, yet if that same young man were to violate the laws of land warfare, we'll go "oh, but think of the horrors he's seen!"

Bovine feces; either you're responsible for your actions or not. If you can't punish 'em for cowardice or atrocities because they're not responsible, then you can't reward them for courage and sacrifice, since they're not responsible for that, either.

[1911Tuner]

Lines are drawn! Take the High Ground! But remember:

There is nothing that you can do...No training that you can take...no
drug-induced nightmare that you can have, that will prepare you for what
you will see...or what you may discover that you're capable of in such a place.

_____________________

These soldiers have, figuratively speaking, hiked a leg on every tombstone at Arlington.

________________________

No more than a black or Hispanic gang-banger has hiked his leg on the
memory of others of their race or creed who have contributed to society
in positive ways. To do so would be to admit that we think that "they" are all like the ones who behave in this manner.

The Soldiers/Sailors/Marines who committed these acts lost control of themselves for a few brief minutes...and they'll pay for it. It will only
besmirch the names of the American Military if we buy into the media
hype and assume that this is what happens every day...with every
member of the Armed Forces serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. THAT is
the message that they want to portray, and the reason is too obvious.
Seen this type of propaganda before.

My father was in the Ardennes from the time the campaign started until
he was wounded in the last days of the war. He saw things happen that he talked about in his sleep, but never out loud. Just before I went to
Vietnam, he told me to keep my wits about me...that the eyes of the world was on us...and that I would learn that under the right circumstances, a human being is capable of anything.

I won't pass moral judgement on these people. Only God can do that.
I'm not qualified.

Be of good cheer. Hear?

Tuner

[OF]

You're wrong about that the seem to be fairly pissed along with the rest of the Arab worldRelatively speaking, the damage these soldiers did in tarnishing the image of the American people and military and hampering the hearts & minds front of the war effort far outsrtips any moral standing for 'outcry' from the 'arab people'. These the same 'arab people' who stood by smiling while Saddam stuffed people feet first into wood chippers and dumped 300,000 arabs into mass graves, giving the thumbs up and saying "Way to keep your people in line, Saddam! Good one!"? That didn't seem to bother the 'arab world' to much, did it? The 'arab world' embraces medeival-style barbarism to an extent we over here can not even conceive in our wildest bloody nightmares. Don't try to project our sense of morality and outrage on the middle east. We are outraged at the wrong done to the prisoners and the damage to the military and mission. The 'arab people' are just happy to have something to justify their blind unthinking hatred while they look around for more water-treatment contractors to slice into ribbons and burn with smiles on their faces and candy for the kids.I'm glad there's this much outcry when one of ours does the wrong thing. It reinforces my opinion that we're on the right side.Exactly.

- Gabe

[Art Eatman]

This thread appears to be one that got started too early. Not enough facts known to make absolute judgements, beyond repulsion for the behavior and the dumbosity of the videotaping.

I've read of a civilian who seemed to be a sort of ringleader. Who was he? Where were the supervising officers and sergeants in the chain of command? Any indications that they deliberately were elsewhere?

We know that some careers are over. We know that these guys will serve as examples and will do hard time. That's a given, what with the international politics involved.

We know there's a double standard as to behavior, insofar as the "eyes of the world": Whatever is done to us is okay; whatever we do is wrong. It's been that way for decades, and won't ever change.

In line with Tuner's comments, does anybody know if these "perps" were combat veterans? Or, were they relative newbies assigned from stateside directly to their duties in the prison?

So: I'm gonna lock this thread and start a new one with most of the questions from above. This is purely in the name of ease of keeping up, and in the hopes of a little less in the way of personal attacks.

Art