Army awards Tillman posthumous Silver Star


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TCD
April 30, 2004, 08:47 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/04/30/tillman/index.html



damn :(


sounds like he was a fine soldier, too bad he had to go

Mods, sorry I felt this could warrant a new thread, if not, I'll just post in another Tillman thread.

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Dannyboy
April 30, 2004, 10:09 PM
I read earlier today that he was also posthumously "promoted." He wasn't actually promoted but laterally appointed to Corporal.

rich2u
April 30, 2004, 10:48 PM
Not to question the mans bravery or anything in any way disrespectful , but why did he get the silver star? An awful lot of soldiers die doing there job. Why did he deserve the second highest award?

Bob R
May 1, 2004, 12:12 AM
Why did he deserve the second highest award?

Actually third highest award for valor.

And, why not, if he was responsible for ensuring the safety of his subordinates, and was instrumental in allowing others to survive the fire fight, why not?

He deserves the medal as much as most who get it do, IMO.

bob

http://www.pbs.org/weta/americanvalor/history/pyramid.html

SodiumBenzoate
May 1, 2004, 12:18 AM
Well, he deserved it more than Kerry did.

Ala Dan
May 1, 2004, 02:03 AM
With all due respect to the Tillman family, lots of
brave souls have made the ultimate sacrifice also,
but were NOT awarded any prestigous type
medals.

I thought the Sillver Star (3rd highest military
award) was awarded for bravery; above and
beyond the call of duty? Being KIA on patrol
doesn't qualify for this award, IMHO.

As to "Mule Face Kerry", the government ought
to strip him of any commendations that this
"bird" was given; as he was and is a traitor!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

Lennyjoe
May 1, 2004, 01:03 PM
I am in agreement with my friend Ala Dan on this one.

Dannyboy
May 3, 2004, 11:20 AM
This is another one of those situations where we don't have enough info to really form a good opinion of the story. We simply do not know what happened that day to say whether or not Tillman deserved the Silver Star. From everything I've read about the guy since he quit the NFL and enlisted, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he did something truly deserving of the medal.

Sean Smith
May 3, 2004, 11:23 AM
I tend to not question posthumous awards much. Since he had to die to get it, I don't think too many soldiers will be jealous.

That said, the Army award system is a nightmare. In 6 years I saw people who were essentially guilty of negilgent homicide get Meritorious Service Medals, and super troopers get snubbed for stupid-assed reasons. I would go as far as to say that the awards I did or didn't get depended entirely on the quality of my superiors' prose, their understanding of the "system," and their willingness to re-submit award paperwork over and over again as it got lost or mis-directed. I personally can't complain, my DD214 has 12 decorations listed (mostly weenie, I might add ;) ), but I could easily have gotten a couple more, or half as many, depending on the flow of paperwork and so forth.

:rolleyes:

dfariswheel
May 3, 2004, 03:03 PM
For a look at the Left's opinion of Tillman, take a look at this outrage.

http://www.msnbc.com/comics/editorial_content.asp?sFile=tr040503

This is the general opinion of the people who want John Kerry to be our next President and Commander-in-Chief.

You might also take a look at this trash's other "cartoons".

bountyhunter
May 3, 2004, 07:49 PM
Not to question the mans bravery or anything in any way disrespectful , but why did he get the silver star? An awful lot of soldiers die doing there job. Why did he deserve the second highest award? Because he was famous and it makes for good propoganda. I agree with you. As a very smart man once said:

"Nobody ever won a war by dying for his country. You have to get the other dumb SOB to die for his."

George S Patton

cdbeaver
May 3, 2004, 10:28 PM
ala Dan:

I have a great deal of respect for you and generally agree with your words of wisdom. However, I think you spoke perhaps before you thought on this theme..

I don't know how you can disbelieve John Kerry earned his Silver Star unless you were there to see what happened.

Similarly, I don't think you are qualified to speak on whether Cpl Tillman deserved to be awarded a Silver Star unless you were there.

It grieves me immensely to see people denigrate the war records of others unless they have been there and done that. If you've been through it, then fine, speak up. If not, please show some respect for valorous conduct--regardless of the politics. Bullets have no politics.

I have seen on this forum generally very fine people get downright dirty and badmouth such people as John McCain, Max Clellan, John Kerry and others who have sacrificed freedom, limbs and even lives, all because their politics do not jibe with those of the poster.

Whether you believe it or not, those guys have given something of themselves for their country. Give 'em hell for their political views, if you like, but never denigrate their wartime service to their country UNLESS YOU'VE BEEN THERE AND DONE THAT.

Destructo6
May 3, 2004, 11:18 PM
An awful lot of soldiers die doing there job.
But doing it above and beyond the call of duty is medal material. That threshold, is, of course, entirely subjective.

By the same logic, Audie Murphy was just doing his job. Of course, he saw action in N. Africa, Sicily, and Italy and rose from PVT to 2nd Lt in his two years of service.

Greg Boyington was just doing his job, ie shoot down Japanese planes, only he did it better than the vast majority. His award of the MOH was somewhat political as well, only receiving it posthumously. Of course, he wasn't quite dead yet, but rather a POW.

The list goes on.

lee
May 4, 2004, 06:30 AM
As Mr Tillman is concerned, he was just doing what anyother good american would. It so happens that I was in the same unit as that ********* Kerry was, but a year later. I heard all about the guys that were awarded the high awards. They were officers, not enlisted. I got a Navy Commendation Medal for the same action That the OIC got a bronze star. I was also wounded but did not get the purple heart. It was a piece of bullet that left a small scar on my left arm. Kerry would have been sent home for this.

SapperLeader
May 4, 2004, 09:07 AM
Back to to Tillman, We dont know the details about the action he was involved in, so none of us are able to comment on if he deserved the Silver Star, or even something lower or higher in prestige. ITs been my experience in the Army, and talking to family members that are vets, that the requirements for medals are often lower ,when you actually died doing something. I personally think that the Medal of Honor is the only one that needs to be on a extremely higher threshold. Ill wait to hear what Tillman did before I make a judgment call on the rightness of the award. My gut feeling is that he died serving his country, and that earns him a huge benefit of the doubt.

RWK
May 4, 2004, 09:11 AM
I base the following on two decades of service as a Naval officer, during which I earned more than a few “personal medals” for individual performance (as contrasted to unit or campaign awards):
a) Medals don’t mean much, since they are awarded with considerable inconsistency;
b) Some of the services (especially the Army) appear to have far less stringent criteria for awards than others;
c) Senior officers tend to receive “end of tour” awards frequently;
d) Even decorations for valor can be politicized (PFC Jessica Lynch’s Silver and Bronze Stars are examples).

Corporal Tillman clearly was a good and brave man. He led a hero’s life and died a hero’s death. I do not know the detailed circumstances of the engagement in which he was killed and, accordingly, cannot comment on the validity of his Silver Star.

However, I do know that John Kerry’s three Purple Hearts were awarded for wounds that were so inconsequential that neither hospitalization (for any substantial duration) nor rehabilitation was required. Further, I know Kerry’s immediate post-war conduct undermined the morale of those still in Southeast Asia as well as his fellow veterans.

EVERY SERVICEMAN SACRIFICES FOR OUR NATION, EVERY COMBATANT RISKS HIS LIFE, AND ALL ARE HEROES.

Corporal Tillman does not require the Silver Star to certify the ideals for which he lived or the bravery with which he died. May God bless him and his loved ones.

bountyhunter
May 4, 2004, 01:09 PM
I heard all about the guys that were awarded the high awards. They were officers, not enlisted. Nothing new here. My father's awards list included six bronze stars and two silver stars (as well as two purple hearts and some other stuff I don't remember). One time he told me that it was standard procedure when a citation was put in to look at who it was for: if you were a west point graduate, the medal got automatically "upgraded" one notch to the next highest award. If you were a lowly enlisted man (like my dad), it got bumped down one. Don't know if that was a universal truth or just his arena.

Ala Dan
May 4, 2004, 03:13 PM
Att: cdbeaver

Thank you very much for your recent post to this thread;
and the kind words that followed. With that said, I'm not
totally convinced that Democratic Presidential hopeful Mr.
John Kerry is the man for the job. While I suppose that
one can't argue the military record of persons after the
fact; his military service has a lot of persons that I will call
"doubter's".

It must be known that there where two Kerry's serving
at the same time. One was the Honorable Robert Kerry,
the former distinguished senator from your home state
of Nebraska; who was leading his Navy Seal team on a
"prisoner snatch mission" when he was severly wounded.
The other, Kerry (John) I'm not quite sure just what to
think of him? I was always taught that if I couldn't say
something good about someone, to just keep my mouth
shut! I guess I will have to envoke that rule here; cuz
mama always knew best.

As to Mr. Pat Tillman. Here are the points I can agree on:

a) Great student athlete at Arizona State YES
b) Great NFL football star with the Cardinals YES
c) Great human being YES
d) Great American MOST DEFINITELY
e) Great Warrior MOST DEFINITELY
f) Great Hero YES
g) Great War Hero ??? (I simply do not know)
h) Deserving of the Silver Star based on available info NO*

*FootNote- if indeed Mr. Tillman's patrol came under intense
direct fire at any point, and he was an immediate casulty; I
don't think this meets the criteria set aside for the SS? On
the other hand, if he had time to perform an act of valor
before sucuming to his wounds, then YES by all means give
him his adieu.

Respectfully,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

fix
May 4, 2004, 03:18 PM
It grieves me immensely to see people denigrate the war records of others unless they have been there and done that.

Amen.

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
May 4, 2004, 04:19 PM
It grieves me immensely to see people denigrate the war records of others unless they have been there and done that.


True. The opinions of people who served alongside Kerry or Tillman are the best measure of their service.

To a man, Tillman's comrades respect and honor him.

On the other hand, Kerry's crewmates, CO's, etc. all have raised serious doubts about his character and service. Dozens of them have organized a letter writing campaign declaring Kerry "unfit" to be President, and this is not based entirely on his anti-war actions, but on his conduct as a boat comander in Vietnam as well.

BTW- Jessica Lynch had the honor and decency to express some doubts about her medals, Kerry of course, put himself in for many of his, noteably his dubious Purple Hearts.

fix
May 4, 2004, 04:22 PM
The opinions of people who served alongside Kerry or Tillman are the best measure of their service.

Ding ding ding!!! We have a winner.

pittspilot
May 4, 2004, 04:25 PM
I listened to part of the Tillman memorial.

My understanding is that Tillman's group was clear of the ambush, but another group was pinned down, and in deep trouble.

Tillman and his group attacked, going uphill, to allow the other group to escape the ambush.

More Details Here (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1793195)

I don't question others combat decorations. Whether it is Kerry, Kerrey, or Tillman. I understand that the process is sometimes political, and sometimes biased, but giving someone a piece of metal, a ribbon, and some recognition for being shot at, and then not curling up in a ball, is fine with me.

Sean Smith
May 4, 2004, 04:41 PM
Looking this over, I have to go back to my original thesis, that if the guy had to die to get the medal, it isn't really worth arguing over if he deserved it. He probably got the medal faster and more expeditiously because he's famous. He might have gotten it anyway, but it would have taken longer. "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life."

cdbeaver
May 4, 2004, 06:08 PM
ala Dan:

Thanks or your response. I am personally well acquainted with Bob Kerrey (Note the different spelling), but not with John Kerry.

Bob Kerrey was a guest in my home when he was running (successfully) for governor of Nebraska. I held a fund raiser for him and campaigned for him, my first and last foray into the political field. I have had conversations with him on numerous occasions since that time. He's a very enjoyable conversationalist.

Kerrey was not a self-serving person, as politicians go, and I never heard him mention his Medal of Honor during our talks.

I'm a self-confessed Democrat, though not of the liberal persuasion. I must say that I am not a supporter of John Kerry. However, I must add for all to note and to probably flame me for, I am even less a supporter of George Bush.

Guess I will either vote for the lesser of two evils in November, or stay home in November and then keep my mouth shut for four years. I do intend to vote, but have yet to be persuaded by either candidate.

But it does make me wonder, did Bush and Cheney throw their Vietnam medals away?

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