[45R]

Found this on Hs2000talk.com this morning. Its a good reminder of the safety rules.

Click Here (http://www.hs2000talk.com/viewtopic.php?t=10382)


By Cheese
I got my xd9 about 2 months ago, great gun love everything about it.
but even with the fancy saftey features accidents can still happen. let me add that i am in no way a novice shooter. i had the gun for a couple of weeks and was getting ready to do some routine cleaning of a couple pistols (ruger22/45 , sa xd9) got the ruger done with no problem and started on the xd, SKIPPED A VERY IMPORTANT STEP and while trying to dry fire the gun and remove the slide i shot myself through me left thigh a few inches above my knee, the bullet went through my femoral artery, femor, pillow, couch, ricocheted off of the wall and found itself in another pillow. the loudest noise in the world really is a bang when you expect a click. well i was alone and bleeding very badly so i used my belt as a turniqet and called 911. i came very close to bleeding to death and nearly lost my leg, now im the proud owner of a 380mm titanium rod and 3 titanium screws that hold my femor together, 2 inches of my femoral artery had to be replaced, and after eleven hours of surgery, 101 staples, 12 days in the hospital and more pain than i thought was possible i learned a very good lesson that i guess i needed to learn. so, please learn from my mistake and ALWAYS doubled check.

thanks for reading this and be safe

Back to top

[gbelleh]

:eek:

Not that I'm 100% perfect either, but I can't imagine (while cleaning) pulling a trigger while the gun is pointed anywhere near myself or anyone else. Another good reminder to follow the 4 rules!

[Top_Notch]

I can never understand this.

I have never had an accidental discharge. And if I ever do, I always test fire/dry fire (as in breaking down my Glock) I'd take out a cabinet or TV before I ever shoot my leg.

Glad he's ok.

[George Hill]

:scrutiny:
I don't see what the gun being an XD has anything to do with this...

1. He failed to clear the gun.
2. Rule 1 violation.
3. Rule 2 violation.
4. Rule 3 violation.

This man had a moment of foolishness that he could have had with any automatic handgun.

[ctdonath]

Gee - good thing that had a loaded chamber indicator! He coulda been hurt!

...uh...waitaminute...

[El Tejon]

:eek:

We are our own worst enemies! Each one teach one.

The Four Rules are life. The Four Rules always apply, ALWAYS.

[ctdonath]

Top_Notch:
An "accidental discharge" is not a "negligent discharge". The former is very rare (mechanical malfunction, tripped, etc.). This case (idiot violated multiple safety rules) was the latter.

[threeseven]

All of my ammunition is padlocked away in containers in another room while I clean my weapons. I'm absolutely paranoid about NDs.

The other day I loaded up an old SMLE magazine I picked up to test the springs. I did this by taking the magazine out of the rifle and going upstairs to my ammunition room, removing a single box of cartridges from the container, removing ten single rounds from the box, and loading the magazine.

I then unloaded the magazine, carefully returning each cartridge to it's respective slot in the box. Double checked the magazine was empty, double checked the cartridge box was full, replaced the box in the container, repadlocked and headed back downstairs to the rifles with the empty magazine. When I got down there, I checked the magazine again, clicked it into the rifle, replaced the bolt into the weapon (cocking it in the process, obviously), opened the action to check there was no round in it, visually and physically checked both the magazine and chamber were empty, then closed the action.

I made sure the rifle was pointed in a safe direction, and moved my finger to the trigger to fire the action. I paused - I wasn't sure if the weapon was clear! I opened the action and checked the chamber and magazine again before finally pushing the bolt forward and firing the action. I then decided I was way too freaking tired to be handling guns, locked them all in the safe and went to bed :)

Better safe than sorry, I suppose. Especially when handling a rifle whose cartridge would probably go right through the two houses next to mine.

[srv656s]

Jeeeeeez...

He broke absolutely every single gun safety rule in the book and said he "Skipped a very important step"... He skipped all of them...

I'm sorry to hear he had to learn such a painful lesson...

Shawn

[atek3]

with the xd, the "important step", is locking back the slide and moving the disassembly lever to "up".

atek3

[Top_Notch]

ctdonath,

You are correct and I meant to state "negligent". I perhaps could understand an accidental (I might add with no-one being hurt), but not a negligent.

Carry on.

[artherd]

This is proof that these newer polymer guns are unsafe! They should be banned! :rolleyes:

4 rules would have prevented (actually, mitigated, because he would still have had the ND because the gun REALLY WAS always loaded, but it would have been into the floor instead.)

[flatrock]

I'd say he learned an important lesson the hard way.

I doubt he'll be careless about safety again.

[straightShot]

Jeez,

Point the gun at your leg at pull the trigger.

I don't know about you, but I just can't bring myself to do such a thing. :banghead:


straightShot

[sturmruger]

That sounds like a lot of pain!! I am glad he made it out of the hospital. 12 days is a long time to sit in a bed with your leg up. I am sure he learned his lesson. It sure would be embarrasing to be sitting in the basement bleeding like a stuck pig.

[TimRB]

"I can never understand this. "

Me neither. When I was a little kid, I had the routine hammered into me: open the gun--look in the chamber--jam your little finger in there. To this day, I do it automatically first time and every time I handle a gun.

I applaud the guy's honesty in writing the "don't let this happen to you" story, but really... How could it?

Tim

[Shane333]

Threeseven,

Thanks for your caution. One of my neighbors wasn't so cautious. While cleaning his rifle, he negligently fired a 30.06. The bullet blew through an antler of a mounted deer head, passed through the ceiling into the second floor, entered the wall, bounced off something hard, blew out the back wall (a 30.06 can make a pretty big hole), and passed within FEET our our master bedroom. The back of our house faces the back of theirs. Needless to say, we were upset.

What more, his daughter was walking right in front of him when it happened. A little more negligence about where it was pointing, and he could have lost his daughter.

Like Threeseven, I check, double check, and then check again for good measure before dry fireing any of my firearms.

[artherd]

blew out the back wall (a 30.06 can make a pretty big hole),

No kidding, especilly after it spalls off steel.

I was shooting a cardbord target tied to a steel pone at 50yds with my red-doted Rem 7400 in .30-06. I managed to shoot the part of the target directly infront of the steel pole.

I never did FIND the target, only one perforated piece not much bigger than a quarter.


Also shot a 1/2" walled steel pipe with an M2 AP round. Went clean through *both sides* of the pipe. Need to try 1" plate next.

[srschick]

TimRB wrote jam your little finger in there


Not a good thing to do. All it takes is a slip and bye-bye pinky.

I've heard of this happening while in the Corps. The range officer was telling us (shooting coaches) about a mishap like this that happened to a recruit. Stuck his pinky in the chamber of an m16 to check it and accidently let the bolt go. Ouch!

[fordfan485]

I dont see how a round could have been in the camber though. On the xd you have to first pull the slide back and lock it to flip up disassembly lever and that would eject what ever round was in the chamber.

[JohnKSa]

Hmmm...

Well, it seems that adding a grip safety to a "glockish" design and changing the field strip routine to eliminate the need to dryfire doesn't prevent NDs.

There are a couple of theories down the drain.

[No_Brakes23]

George Hill said...
I don't see what the gun being an XD has anything to do with this...

The OP was just trying to point out that the XD is finally catching up to the Glock in technology.;)

[U.S.SFC_RET]

It's always good to see a post on an ND on the THR every once in a while. Serves the body a good reminder. Don't be too critical of the poor chap, I am sure that he has learned his lesson. We at THR just continue to learn and file away experiences like his for everyone involved.

[scooterthegreat]

wrong thread....

[Tim Burke]

Well, it seems that adding a grip safety to a "glockish" design and changing the field strip routine to eliminate the need to dryfire doesn't prevent NDs.If you are looking for technology to eliminate NDs you will be disappointed. As others have pointed out, this ND had nothing to do with the gun, and everything to do with the operator.
That doesn't mean all designs have the same risk of ND.

[Bruce333]

Thanks for the story.

However...that link you posted doesn't work "The topic or post you requested does not exist"..., also no member named Cheese..."No topics or posts met your search criteria"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v331/bru333/oldthread.jpg

[psyopspec]

Hmmm...

Well, it seems that adding a grip safety to a "glockish" design and changing the field strip routine to eliminate the need to dryfire doesn't prevent NDs.

There are a couple of theories down the drain.

Anecdote ‡ data.

[kansas45]

Well, that was pretty stupid to say the least. But as they say, It could have been much worse! LESSON LEARNED? :uhoh: :eek:

[Tim Burke]

However...that link you posted doesn't work "The topic or post you requested does not exist"..., also no member named Cheese..."No topics or posts met your search criteria"I now see that this thread started over 2 years ago, and has recently been resurrected.

[Serendipity]

Sure is great that he was playing around with a "safe" pistol that featured a grip safety, loaded chamber indicator, blah, blah, blah; otherwise, he might have done some real damage. :cool: Seriously, though, it's terrible that the guy hurt himself so badly. Nobody nees to remind him of his mistakes, I can guarantee you of that...he'll play them over-and-over in his head for a long, long time.

[riverdog]

Just as a reminder: Four Rules (http://www.bobtuley.com/safety_rules.htm)
Rule #1: Treat all guns as if they are loaded.
Rule #2: Never let the muzzle of a gun point at anything you do not want to destroy or kill.
Rule #3: Keep your finger straight and off the trigger.
Rule #4: Be absolutely sure of your target, and what is behind it.

The importance of rule 2 cannot be overemphasized. It applies whether you know the gun is loaded or even if you're absolutely sure the gun is unloaded.

[JohnKSa]

As others have pointed out, this ND had nothing to do with the gun, and everything to do with the operator.By definition, ALL NDs have nothing to do with the gun and everything to do with the operator. ADs are a different story, but all NDs are the operator's fault.That doesn't mean all designs have the same risk of ND.Some designs try to ameliorate possible negligence on the part of the operator--but what prevents NDs is careful gun handling, not additional safeties or "safer" field stripping procedures.

There is no safety device that can eliminate negligence.Anecdote ‡ data.Unless you're claiming that this incident did not happen, your objection is groundless. If this person had an ND with an XD then my original statement is correct.

Furthermore, even if this incident did not happen, unless you're claiming that it is impossible to have an ND with an XD then your objection is still groundless.

[Tim Burke]

By definition, ALL NDs have nothing to do with the gun and everything to do with the operator.So if they introduced a gun that had no manual safety, no grip safety and a light, short travel trigger, you'd be fine with that?
I think such a gun would have a lot of NDs. I agree, the NDs would still be the fault of the operator, but that doesn't mean they have "nothing" to do with the gun.

[Euclidean]

Hmmm...

Well, it seems that adding a grip safety to a "glockish" design and changing the field strip routine to eliminate the need to dryfire doesn't prevent NDs.

There are a couple of theories down the drain.

The initial criticism of this statement may or may not be 100% logical, but this statement is flawed.

The only method by which we could prove that this statement is correct would be to have a completely accurate count of the number of NDs with Glock pistols in a specified amount of time among exactly how many users and the corresponding figures for the XD/HS2000. Then we could compare the two sets of numbers and see if that was indeed a couple of theories down the drain.

We'd need a large sample of accurate data too. That's tough.

To be fair, this also means that without such numbers, we can't really say there's anything to objectively support the idea the XD is inherently safer either.

Of course the whole thing is ridiculous to even discuss, NDs are caused by human error which there is no accounting for.

However, I leave this an excercise to the reader: what is probably inherently safer all other things being equal, a gun with a funky trigger, or a gun with a funky trigger and a grip safety?

Also, click here

http://www.springfield-armory.com/Manuals/XDManual.pdf

Go to page 12. You do indeed dryfire the XD in order to field strip it. I should know, I have 4 of them!

[Valkman]

As others have stated this is not an XD issue but a idiot issue. I'd like to know how and why you dredged it up since it's not available at XD Talk and is 2 years old. There is a newer ND thread by a different person: http://www.hs2000talk.com/viewtopic.php?t=35998&highlight=negligent+discharge

This one is also not a XD issue but a "I had my head up my butt" issue.

[JohnKSa]

The only method by which we could prove that this statement is correct would be to have a completely accurate count of the number of NDs with Glock pistols in a specified amount of time among exactly how many users and the corresponding figures for the XD/HS2000. Then we could compare the two sets of numbers and see if that was indeed a couple of theories down the drain.All it takes is one ND to prove that the additional gadgets and different procedures don't prevent NDs. If they did, the ND wouldn't have happened.

You may want to do a study to see if additional gadgets and different procedures reduce NDs or to try to determine which guns are inherently safer, but those are different theories.I agree, the NDs would still be the fault of the operator, but that doesn't mean they have "nothing" to do with the gun.Guns are inanimate and so can not be negligent. Therefore NEGLIGENT discharges are never the fault of the gun and are always the fault of the operator.

[Euclidean]

All it takes is one ND to prove that the additional gadgets and different procedures don't prevent NDs. If they did, the ND wouldn't have happened.

Well there's the crux of the matter; what I was reading in your statement was that the addition of a grip safety makes no difference whatsoever in whether or not a ND is more or less likely. This statement I don't think can be proven either way as I pointed out.

What you were actually saying apparently is that the addition of extra safety mechanisms does not preclude the possibility of ND as this is a function of human error. That I agree with.

The real safety is between your ears. No mechanism is going to prevent negligence.

All this said, the safety on the XD or HS2000 or whatever is there to avoid an accidental discharge, not a negligent discharge. If any object, say a protruding rod or hook, a pen, or any object that could get caught in the trigger guard and depress the trigger were to come in contact with an XD vs. a Glock, it's extremely unlikely that the grip safety would be depressed at the same time. Even if you think that's goofy, if nothing else it's less likely to be fired if you were fighting over it with somebody assuming neither of you have control of the weapon. From that perspective I think it's possibly inherently safer to some degree.

[Tim Burke]

Therefore NEGLIGENT discharges are never the fault of the gun and are always the fault of the operator.Yes, I believe I said that.
Are you saying that, since all NDs are the fault of the operator, that all guns have the same risk of ND?
If so, please come right out and say so.
If not, then why are you debating the point?

[P95Carry]

Hi Nelson :)

Well - another salutary reminder tho one most folks should not need.

I will just say as I have said often - obey rule #2 if no other - and no one gets hurt. It is IMO the catch-all if an individual feels some need to get sloppy on safety.

Embarrassment is treatable - way more so than damage to life or limb.

[JohnKSa]

Tim,

I've re-read what I posted.

1. I have said what I meant to say.
2. What I have said is quite clear.
3. The argument you want to be in isn't the one I'm in. ;)

[Psssniper]

Comic books usually have all the answers to lifes questions

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=40530&d=1148881330

[riverdog]

I will just say as I have said often - obey rule #2 if no other - and no one gets hurt. It is IMO the catch-all if an individual feels some need to get sloppy on safety.Agree 100%. NEVER sweep anyone with a weapon unless they just happen to be your target. Folks checking out new guns sweep other folks in gunstores all the time and it's a bad habit. Even if you know as a certainty the gun is not loaded and you don't touch the trigger, don't let the muzzle sweep other people or body parts you don't want to destroy. Control the muzzle and even if the gun has an "accident",Embarrassment is treatable - way more so than damage to life or limb.

[psyopspec]

JohnKSa, Euclidean elaborated on my point quite correctly. In science, to prove or disprove a theory, one needs data - experiments showcasing a control and variable over a certain period of time. Anyone determined enough could have an ND with any weapon; however one story of an ND with an XD neither proves nor disproves that the safety devices on the XD make the pistol less likely to discharge when it is not intended.

All this proves to me is that an XD owner handled his weapon in an unsafe manner and caused an ND. If he intended to pull the trigger, safety devices matter very little.

[nitesite]

WOW! Digging up a two year old thread.

Goes to show that safe handling never gets old.

[JohnKSa]

psyopspec,

pre·vent 1 archaic a : to be in readiness for (as an occasion) b : to meet or satisfy in advance c : to act ahead of d : to go or arrive before
2 : to deprive of power or hope of acting or succeeding
3 : to keep from happening or existing <steps to prevent war>
4 : to hold or keep back : HINDER, STOP -- often used with from

You will note that the words "less likely" are totally inconsistent with the meaning of "prevent".If he intended to pull the trigger, safety devices matter very little.Yes, my point exactly.

[MechAg94]

In this case, the operator deliberately attempted to dry fire his weapon 1) without checking the chamber and 2) without pointing the gun in a safe direction.

In this case, I don't see how the design of the gun would prevent anything. The gun could have 249 safety devices and it still wouldn't matter.

[psyopspec]

John, guess we'll just have to agree to agree in this case. ;)

[BluesBear]

It's nigh on to impossible to shoot yourself accidentially.
It is however quite possible to shoot yourself unintentionally.
Of course only a real goofball shoots themselves intentionally. :rolleyes:
Negligence is often just another form of ignorance.

It's very simple, as has been said here many times,
Keep your Booger Hook away from the Bang Switch and bad stuff like this will just not happen.

[evan price]

As the recent proud new owner of an XD9 I agree, yes, you must dry fire the weapon after releasing the slide and rotating up the take down lever, in order for it to let the slide slip off. However, unless the OP was trying to take the weapon down with a loaded mag in the pistol, I don't see how this would happen. If he dropped the mag and left a live round in it the round would have been ejected when he racked the slide back to lock it back and use the takedown lever. Unless it was an ejector/extractor failure? Not saying the guy didn't shoot himself just can't see how this could be duplicated except for something more seriously dumb than just failing to ensure the pistol was clear. My $.02

[DevLcL]

evan price,

Its simple. He pointed the gun at his leg, racked the slide, dropped the mag, then fired. He simply racked the slide before dropping the mag which was the "VERY IMPORTANT STEP" the writer is referring to.

He could have been referring to the "Never point your weapon at anything you don't want to destroy" part of proper gun handling, but I just don't think so.

This is just an educated guess, one that most gun savvy folks will agree with. However, we don't know for certain.

-Dev