Springer Dings Update


PDA






1911Tuner
May 4, 2004, 03:57 PM
Well....after tweakin' and cussin' and prayin' and dancin' over this thing, I
admitted defeat and took the extractor outta the slide.

The dings were ALMOST gone, but not completely. I even lightly broke the
leading edge of the bevel inside the port, since it was a little sharp. Close,
but no cigar.

Fished around 'til I found an Ed Brown hardcore extractor...put a little
bit'o'tweak on it and...Ba-Da-BING! No ding!

The Springfield extractor held tension and did its job, even though the hook was a little on the short side. Makin' it deeper didn't help much.
The thing is too narrow to let the case twist free at 2 O'Clock. It releases
it too early. The Brown cured it. The cases exit the small port at a slight
backward angle...maybe 5 degrees...and hit the ground about 5-6 feet
away in a 50-round test.

Now, I've got a handle on Springfield's logic behind the 9mm-sized
firin' pin...but why the extractor???

Anyhoo...that's the long and the short of it.

Luck!

Tuner

If you enjoyed reading about "Springer Dings Update" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Old Fuff
May 4, 2004, 05:22 PM
Tuner:

If you get a chance measure the Springfield extractor against a USGI or older Colt commercial one and see if you find where it (the "Springer") is different.

I am wonering if they are using extractors that are supposed to work with all cartridge head sizes. Could be that the bean-counter's one-size-fits-all thinking has struck again.

1911Tuner
May 4, 2004, 05:51 PM
Old Fuff said:

If you get a chance measure the Springfield extractor against a USGI or older Colt commercial one and see if you find where it (the "Springer") is different
___________________-

Did that. The Springer's hook is a full 64th narrower than a USGI and the
Brown. The depth to the the wall is .030 as opposed to the Brown's .035
inch.

Good news! Diggin' around in my parts bin produced a USGI firing pin
stop that's .005 wider than the OEM stop....it's a perfect finger-tight press fit in the Springfield slide. I'll keep using the OEM stop for the duration
of the torture test just to see if it holds up, but when it's over...Upgrade time!

Later on!

Tuner

Old Fuff
May 4, 2004, 08:49 PM
Great! Now if you had a different frame, slide, barrel, miscellaneous pins, screws & springs, grips, grip and manual safeties, recoil spring assembly, trigger, hammer, sear, disconector, hammer strut, mainspring housing, firing pin stop (you mentioned that), extractor and a few other sundry parts you’d have the makings for a pretty good gun …

The Old Fuff is cranky today – as is increasingly the case – and wonders why the maker can’t produce a product that doesn’t need different parts and tuning when Colt, Remington-Rand and Ithaca turned them out by the hundred’s of thousands under wartime conditions from 1941 through 1945.

So far as the extractors’ concerned they can’t even get them to specification. I presume they do have blueprints and can read a caliper.

Oh well … (The Old Fuff is returned to his cage).

sm
May 4, 2004, 09:10 PM
Well I guess Tuner just needs a "old" Model 10 or 19...:p running and ducking

Well I had an old boss" back in '09 " (tm) 'plain something to me. The three factors that determine the price of all goods and services : greed, greed, and greed.

Yes I know we have made progress with the assembly line and all...but I agree with Tuner and Old Fuff. It is one thing to make all the 1911 style parts for 45ACP using modern technology. It is another to fiddle around and make stuff for other calibers...not to mention the whole darn "product line" is compromised to make a "one size fits all".

Why re-invent the wheel? Okay to make production more efficient if quality is maintained, no need to re-invent.


* If it ain't broke - don't fix it.

The whole idea of the 1911 style ( like others) seem to have been compromised due to greed. Sad - Huh?

JeffC
May 4, 2004, 10:44 PM
One day I'm gonna have to hear that Smith&Wesson story :D

I can only imagine....

sm
May 4, 2004, 11:07 PM
No Story ,
It's just I know that Tuner appreciates old K frames is all. Just some friendly ribbing...still gonna be behind cover tho' when Tuner shows up. Heck an old hickory axe handle makes a formidable weapon, I reacon he keeps one handy :)

Right Tuner, old buddy, old friend ? ...:p

Old Fuff
May 5, 2004, 01:51 AM
What!!! You mean that low-life, underhanded no-good Tuner has been sneaking around looking for genuine S&W K-frames???? Why that’s absolutely outrageous. With his luck he might pick up something “I” should have. What the heck does that ol’ hammer mechanic know about 1902 and 1905 Hand Ejectors? He’s supposed to be fix’n junky slab-sided .45 pistols, not wheelguns. Just can’t trust nobody these days …

Well O.K. – maybe he can have just one …

sm
May 5, 2004, 02:35 AM
<wipes hands of dirty deed>
Well that ought to stir stuff up. :D

Umm Old Fuff, anybody gotta couch I can borrow?
Gee if that Tuner fella dings a case using a wheelie...I'm in real trouble, best to hide out. :p

So what I'm hearing is what I always told. The extractor is responsible for more than just "extracting". It was designed, along with the rest of the gun , to work as a "machine". Relationships to each other from ammo, to timing, extraction...everything.

So it figures the first thing to cut corners on is the extractor - if one is into cutting corners to make a profit.

Well - heck I'm usually the one accused of not being wired right...not used to being on the other side of the fence. :)

1911Tuner
May 5, 2004, 05:38 AM
Uh-ohhhh. Busted!:uhoh:

Well..Since sm done let the cat outta the bag (Thanks a lot...BUDDY!)
:p I'm right fond of N-frames too...'Specially anything pre-Bangor Punta.
For the record...I do NOT like the new ones with the frame-mounted
firin' pin. A dang Smith & Wesson without the pin on the hammer is just
wrong!:rolleyes:

Fuff...Sorry bud. Ya can't have'em all. Half of'em is MINE!

sm
May 5, 2004, 06:03 AM
:D
So you gonna get back to testing that Springer - or what? :D

Hey - you mentioned N frames, not me. Hey there are some things in this world designed correctly , proven reliable, and ought not be messed with. 1911's, Old Smith Wheel guns,( yeah the ones with the FP in the right place) Model 70 ( especially in '06) model 12's , 870 pumps...but I am biased and opinionated. Ever notice the great guns were blue steel...there I go again. :p

Only 49...wait'll I get old...I ought to be a hoot to be around. :p

Okay, what I would appreciate knowing, since I'm dumb and all...The specs on a USGI and the relation to say a Ed Brown. You can do a Wilson, but I'm personally not a big fan of his guns and parts.

What I'm getting at who does the next best thing to a USGI in Specs , metallurgy and how well they work. If they need tuning and the such...most seem to benefit from turning that radius on bottom edge IME.

Folks have guns that need to be reliable, so...what do folks need to consider to make reliable? Being as the factory does not always have our best interest at heart and all.

I'm guessing the USGI is spring steel - correct? Ed Brown uses a qquality barstock - next best thing - correct?. Bulletproof is just cryo'd barstock to meet that fella's spec's If I understand reading b/t the lines of the marketing stuff. Jury still out on Cryo'd stuff...especially small parts - correct?


I have a reason for asking, somebody has to and we all learn from stuff like this. I just appreciate folks like yourself , Old Fuff, Mr. Keenan...others sharing and teaching.

Won't do any good to sic a dog on me...dogs think I hung the moon. I end up being their "bestest" new friend.

Old Fuff
May 5, 2004, 11:37 AM
So I have decided to let him have half (but only half) of the S&W Hand Ejector revolvers ...

Namely, those made after 1970 ...


Returning to the core subject. "Bar stock" comes in various alloys, and is usually annealed to make machining easier. Then the part is heat treated to give it the exact hardness or “spring temper” that’s appropriate for the particular part. In times past some extractors started life as a forging that was finished machined and heat-treated. Others were machined out of bar stock and then also heat-treated. If things were done right, as they usually were, the finished parts were probably equal.

SM is correct in citing the importance of the extractor in relationship to dependable feeding and ejecting. As Tuner has shown it is extremely critical that the part be correctly dimensioned in the first place, and then fitted and adjusted in each individual gun. This may be seen as a design flaw today, but in John Browning’s time it wasn’t because skilled and motivated workers were available too do the work. This being the case, aftermarket people like Tuner weren’t necessary – at least most of the time. Today we live in an entirely different world. It’s bad enough when the gun’s manufacturer doesn’t see that critical work is done right, but even the best workers (including Tuner) can’t make things work right when the raw parts aren’t even “to blueprint,” and may not be made from the right material(s) and heat-treated as required.

Prior to World War Two, and for a short time thereafter, Colt made practically all of the parts that went into a pistol or revolver “in house.” This included both major and minor parts such as pins, springs, and screws. Today almost everything (and sometimes literally everything) is purchased from outside vendors. All the manufacturer does is finish the part(s) cosmetically and assemble them into the finished product. In some cases some minimal hand-fitting is done, but the goal is to have “drop-in” parts. It is usually the practice to buy these out sourced parts from the least expensive vendor because cost control, not best quality, is the driving force.

And it shows …

1911Tuner
May 5, 2004, 02:13 PM
Testify, Brother Fuff! TESTIFY!

If they built'em like the used to, pistol fixers like me would be like that Maytag repairman...:D

1911Tuner
May 5, 2004, 02:23 PM
All the ones made AFTER 1970??? Aw, Fuff! Yer all heart!:neener:

Old Fuff
May 5, 2004, 05:22 PM
My generosity is only exceeded by my good looks. Besides, they must have made “some” good guns after 1970 …

sm
May 5, 2004, 05:53 PM
Thanks gentleman.
Gee , that Old Fuff is modest - ain't he? :)

Tuner, So in comparing the spec's of the Springer, to both a newer Colt, and the "original" Gov't Model...what do we have?

Oh Gosh, :uhoh: I hate to admit, but I actually have a "after 1970" K Frame in steel that has proven itself to be a quality pc. Model 64, RB, 3" HB.

This I hope does not make folks think less of me or nothing...:

1911Tuner
May 5, 2004, 07:31 PM
sm asked:

Tuner, So in comparing the spec's of the Springer, to both a newer Colt, and the "original" Gov't Model...what do we have?

Well...

5-inch barrel...check!
.45 ACP caliber...check!
Semi-auto, recoil operated...check!
7-shot magazine...check!
brown, checkered plastic grips..check!
Phosphate finish...maybe...
small sights...check!
Small ejection port....check!
Absense of passive firing pin safety...check!

That's about it, I'm afraid.

Which means that the old saw about it lookin' like a duck and quackin' like a duck may not be quite as accurate as Pappy said it was...

Oh well...It's a pretty decent pistol for the money, and it does conjure
images of the marines stormin' the beaches of Tarawa. As long as you
use halfway decent ammo, it goes bang when you pull the trigger, but
there's more to reliability than that...Still don't trust the MIM/Investment cast issue...but I do like the gun well enough to keep it. Upgrades will
be forthcoming before I'd be willin' to consider it as a grab and run situation. At this point, if I couldn't get to one of my Colts or Rands,
I'd hafta grab that Norinco.

Stay tuned for more of the Springer Torture-Test Chronicles.

Tuner

Jim K
May 5, 2004, 10:30 PM
The only 1911 type I have found that is made like the GI guns and made right is the Norinco. Frame and slide forged, machined and hardened. Spring steel extractors and magazine and recoil springs that actually work for thousands of rounds, etc. Have 8600 through one, 2500 through the other. Zero bobbles. Zero parts replaced. Both guns look like new. No conjuring of WWII images, though, not even of Chiang Kai-Shek.

P.S. Bought both guns used, so I didn't patronize the Commies.

Jim

sm
May 5, 2004, 10:41 PM
Mr. Keenan,
The Norinco's I've shot, have performed flawlessley. Others I have seen and handled , though a bit rough in finish, appeared to be the same quality as you decribed.

Tuner, others, My question was in regard to not only the slides / frames / metallurgy but also the parts themselves.

For Instance I removed extractors from a USGI ,and Norinco...many years ago...dimensions were same, they worked in each other just fine.

So Tuner , for instance the extractor from your Norinco you have, will it work in the Springer?

Just learning, asking questions, making notes...Thanks all!

1911Tuner
May 6, 2004, 04:24 AM
sm asked:

For Instance I removed extractors from a USGI ,and Norinco...many years ago...dimensions were same, they worked in each other just fine.

So Tuner , for instance the extractor from your Norinco you have, will it work in the Springer?

Howdy Steve,

I haven't tried it, but it probably will, since the Springfield's slide and frame
dimensions seem to be pretty well in-spec. All parts *should* interchange
with a USGi pistol...of course with the caveat on "Drop-in" parts. There's
always a chance that Murphy will show up and toss a wrench into anything.
But the chances of a direct swap are at least above average.

Gotta make one point on Jim's observations on his Norincos. The more
I see of this 'Rinco, the more impressed I am. I think it's actually tougher than the USGI pistols, especially the slide.

Later on!

Tuner

sm
May 6, 2004, 12:33 PM
*nudge - elbow*

Well - try it! I'm curious. :D

Yeah I've met Mr. Murphy...more than once and probably will again. Never cared for him, still don't , and never look forward to a 'surprise visit'.

Just getting some notes made. Wait until I ask about the Caspian Frames and slides. :)

I know I'm a pain...I have a reason for asking this stuff tho'. Not only for myself but for those that won't. "I ain't bashful, proud, smart...." You all know that tho'.

:)

Detritus
May 6, 2004, 02:02 PM
If they built'em like the used to, pistol fixers like me would be like that Maytag repairman...

what three times as busy as lowly 'ol me the Whirlpool repairman? :D :D

sorry never CAN let that pass..

Gewehr98
May 6, 2004, 05:49 PM
But I agree with Jim Keenan. An ancient 1911-smith in Sacramento told me there were two guns he'd recommend for my early IPSC days, period. Caspian and Norinco. Both Colt and Springfield were having QC problems. I bought 4 of those reverse-engineered Norincos for $219.95 each. I should've bought more of them.

Regarding the extractor problem. I find it hilarious that instead of making an internal extractor to the same specifications as all those issued GI 1911's delivered up to 1945, somebody thinks that the ultimate cure is an external, BHP extractor. Methinks there's a baby in the discarded bathwater there... :scrutiny:

BluesBear
May 8, 2004, 05:14 AM
Now if I could only get a spring steel extractor that would fit my Series 80.

1911Tuner
May 8, 2004, 06:25 AM
BluesBear said:

Now if I could only get a spring steel extractor that would fit my Series 80.

All ya gotta do is call Cylinder & Slide Shop. They've got'em.

Luck!

Tuner

Detritus
May 13, 2004, 12:20 AM
Hey Tuner,

If in a few weeks i decide to get one of the Ed Brown, extractors for MY new springer, could i possibly get you to walk me through how to "tweak" it by PM??


My new WW2-GI is having the exact same symptoms, so i am assuming that there is about a 95% chance that's it's the same cause.

thanky for your time.

1911Tuner
May 13, 2004, 06:09 AM
Howdy Detritus,

I'd be happy to walk ya through it...but the extractor swap/tweak didn't get the problem solved. Pretty sure by this point, it's a mislocation on the
ejector. I gave in and lowered the port a little. Didn't go all the way to
a .460-.470 height from the rail, though. I took it down to about .550 inch.
I get just a light swipe mark on the case mouth now, and a strong ejection pattern and about 2 O'Clock. A different ejector MIGHT have done the trick, but I didn't wanna fool with that just now.

PM me on the ejector tweak any time.

Luck!

Tuner

andrew17
May 13, 2004, 02:52 PM
Hey Tuner, Hows the springer shootin, accuracy wise?
Does it hit pretty much point of aim?
Thanks

If you enjoyed reading about "Springer Dings Update" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!