Happened to my brother - What would you do?


PDA






HighPingSniper
May 5, 2004, 02:33 AM
My brother recently moved into a duplex. He discovered his neighbor was a bipolar skitzofrenic. Well, my brother tried to befriend the neighbor because he felt sorry for him. Soon, the guy totally flips his lid and tries to fight my brother for no reason at all.... Attempts to try to calm him down and make him go home were unsuccessful. My brother then tries to shut the front door when the nut case sticks his foot in the door so he can't close it. A struggle soon followed. After getting the upper hand on the guy, my brother grabs a hockey stick and cracks him in the head twice....blood pouring down the guy's face he continues to charge my brother. (i'm saying "my brother" alot) Then my brother runs into his bedroom and locks his door, grabbing his newly purchased Beretta CX4 Storm. The funny farm extra pounds on the door trying to break it down as my brother warns him he has a gun, and will shoot him if he comes in. His girlfriend calls the cops. Cops get there, and told him that if he would have shot him he would be in jail for murder. What kind of B.S. is this??

If you enjoyed reading about "Happened to my brother - What would you do?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Travis McGee
May 5, 2004, 02:42 AM
Mental illness is no joke, that's for sure. I feel sorry for what happened to your bro, and also for the crazy guy. It's no bed of roses for him, you can bet. I mean, it's not something he chose, or can control. I hope he's getting treatment, and meds can help. Very sad all around.....

Matt

sm
May 5, 2004, 03:01 AM
Right now If I were the "brother" I would be seeking legal advice in the event charges get filed.

I did a rotation once in a Mental health facility. I actually was allowed to talk to a person with 3 distinct personaites, I witnessed the person go back and forth between two of these personalities. I mean voice and physical changes. Since I was sitting 3 ft from him...I'm real happy he did not go into the 3rd personality...err...that was the one that caused him to shoot 2 people with a.44. He had disarmed someone of their gun. [ I can't say more]

I was given the go ahead since the Dr and Nurse had already been attacked by said patient, even slightly sedated. So being as I was a student I just walked in and got this fellow to follow me to an area where one -way mirrors were - Docs and the security guards behind- to do an assessment.

I wanted to see if me in jeans, tennis shoes, oxford shirt could get him to open up. I was a student so I removed my ID badge and well I was not dressed as nice as some pts. I even rec'd the ok to break the rules and smoke inside...figure if he saw me break the rules ...I was not "one of them" ( medical staff). I had to use a book of matches, and I emptied my pockets of everything. Not even a pen, all I had was matches and cigarettes...even the concern over my glasses was expressed...I kept them on...he had seen me earlier in a "quiet " room and didn't want to raise suspicion...he thought I was a pt, probably still does. He asked why I had been put in "quiet room". I made something up. I used the assement skills I was learning, but it is wise to sometimes "listen" and "wing it".

I was to run like hell if he got up to attack me...the lamp on the table I made sure was closer to me than him. I didn't even have my keys to open doors.[ locked unit but students had key as did staff] Big security risk for me, security and medical staff consented.

This person was young, early twenties with a new baby. Never a history of violence. Schiz hit him one day and progressed rapidly. The small town doc missed the Dx. At 5' 9" and 135 # well...I saw him take on the Doc and 2 security guards and then the straight jacket didn't prevent the nurse from getting hurt. Reminded me of a person on PCP. The strength he had when violent was incredible.

I'm 6' 170# and all I had was my brain, feet and a lamp...I was very aware of every move , every breath he took.

I was facinated and curious. I had taken psych years before and read up on various things. I was now in another psych class with a psych rotation . What I saw ...well a textbook is only a textbook.

He had no recollection of the incident of why he was there.[ "Normal" state] Pesonality #1 described "some details" of incident. Personality #2 provided not a thing, he was a different person I mean a totally different person.

Later I observed the person behind one way mirrors, and viewed other tapes of personality #3. This voice was the "Beast", it really took a toll on that poor soul's mind and body. This is the personality that resulted in violence. I was fine until I went outside. I started shaking so bad - my instructor had to hold me. I could not stop shaking. She had seen something similar in Med school...she understood. I really understood why she was so concerned for my safety as was the Docs, nurses and security days before in my assessment and interview. [shudder to think about it]

Education is a great tool. I highly recommend folks read up on various mental health problems, the meds, the whole thing. Many LEO, learn this, Nurses and Dr.'s learn this. Well in the real world it does not hurt to be knowledgeable and recognize some signs.

It may come in handy with a friends parent with early signs of Altheimer's. A neighbor going through depression, off meds, or the street punk high on Dope.

Never make eye contact - never!

Always Always watch hands. Read body language, besides watching hands watch the feet.

Your "brother"-

I would have educated myself about neighbor's condition and been aware of signs and what to do - or not do ( no eye contact).

On meds these folks do function very well in society. Familial support and support groups help as well.

Look it up, but the short version is as time goes on the meds may need to be changed...increase or decreased...because of the way the brain /body metabolises the meds.

Regular observations with a pt baseline is needed to keep tabs.

One never knows the where of when of an encounter - CRSam

Nor does one know the mental state of a person either.

Jim March
May 5, 2004, 04:08 AM
I spent a month with a lady with multiple personalities. A LOT of 'em. 23 major ones and "fragments" beyond count.

This is REAL, folks. It's always caused by horrific child abuse...the "fragmentation" is an extreme survival response. And there's always one sub-personality capable of really serious violence levels, a "protector" type...but it usually only kicks in when really needed, and is usually somewhat rational. Hence multiple personality cases are not usually dangerous.

It's not the same as schizophrenia, although the two illnesses can sometimes be found in the same person. MAN, that would be a freakshow indeed :(.

As to HighPingSniper's brother: a guy that completely nuts is a threat to one's life. Deadly force, at least in my non-professional opinion, may be supportable. The standard on use of deadly force in MY state (California) is "are you in fear of losing your life or suffering great bodily injury" and by that standard, I believe deadly force could be justified. (Yes, CA's deadly force standards are surprisingly sane, they're the same as the Texas daylight standards.)

With THAT said, all gun owners should know the deadly force rules of their state. Including HighPingSniper's brother.

atek3
May 5, 2004, 04:49 AM
Unless you are in britain, that cop was straight up wrong. Someone attacks you in your own home, you command them to leave with a firearm and they continue attacking, they are dead meat. (just don't fire at them when they are on the ground :uhoh: )

atek3

duckfoot
May 5, 2004, 05:35 AM
After getting the upper hand on the guy, my brother grabs a hockey stick and cracks him in the head twice....blood pouring down the guy's face he continues to charge my brother.

This is not good for his brother, as far as the cops are involved. He would have been arrested for murder, if he had killed that fella, and charged with something less more than likely reguardless of weather it was a good shoot or not. Then "if" getting off on the criminal charges, then the civil suit would be filed by dead guy's family for wrongful death and weather he would win or loose he still owes his stuffed suits a ton of fees.

If you ever have to drop the hammer on a attacker, you are going to have problems for a lone time.

seeker_two
May 5, 2004, 05:44 AM
Unfortunately, duckfoot is right. Even if you were defending yourself, the cops seem bent on arresting people for attempted murder no matter what.

Best advice....

1. Don't take legal advice from LEO's. Most don't know the laws well enough to understand them. They're just around to arrest people, not make judgements.

2. Have your brother get a lawyer RIGHT NOW. Even if nothing happens, the lawyer can advise him on what to do in the future about the situation. And they ARE paid to know the law.

Best of luck to him...

mete
May 5, 2004, 05:46 AM
All too often we see cases where a schizophrenic ,while normal with proper medication, stop taking the meds and become very violent.

ThreadKiller
May 5, 2004, 07:46 AM
I'd move.

Tim

hillbilly
May 5, 2004, 08:15 AM
1) Your brother needs to contact an attorney right now.

Like someone else said, don't ever get your legal advice from cops. Some do-gooder idiot or maybe even the attacker's family could file suit against him.

2) Your brother needs to get a new duplex, right now.

Living that close to a real schizo is not a good idea.

This particular schizo has already shown his potential for violence. Does your brother think this guy is going to magically get better one day?

Your brother is renting. Other rental properties are available somewhere else.


hillbilly

FPrice
May 5, 2004, 08:19 AM
"Never make eye contact - never!"

At the risk of getting off-thread, can you briefly explain why? Knowing why may help me follow this advice.

Thanks.

El Tejon
May 5, 2004, 08:56 AM
FPrice, depending on the diagnosis and person, the afflicted person may see this as a threat or challenge. I learned this the hard way.

I work for these individuals, usually the jails allow their medications. This day I had apparently arrived BEFORE "pill hour." As I was sitting down to go over the case with my client, KAPOW, as the kids say "it was on.":uhoh:

Got him in a wrist wrap (by sheer stupid "luck" he grabbed my wrist) and used my foot to bang on the door with all of my 195 lbs. (they lock you in the conference room). Luckily the conference room I was in facing the central control room. The C.O. in there called out for help and it came.

It was like fighting three people even though I had 30 pounds on him and work out regularly. To this day whenever I meet those with the "far away look" in their eyes, I get that sinking feeling in my stomach. Of course, not all individuals so afflicted are prone to violence (some just sit there and cry).

Your brother should seek legal counsel without delay.

MBG
May 5, 2004, 11:13 AM
Advice for your brother (some from personal experience).

1. Gain professional legal advice. About the incident, about the cop’s ‘advice’ and about the order of restraint your brother will be filing shortly.
2. Have said professional legal advice talk to the police officer’s superior, about his advice dispensed, and the actual local laws on self defense and the castle doctrine.
3. Hire realtor and moving company, in that order. The crazy guy next door might not be your brother’s fault, but it’s his problem. Best way to solve it is to not be there. Sucks to be the one the schizophrenic hears voices about.

Marty

MBG
May 5, 2004, 11:17 AM
2X Tap

RustyHammer
May 5, 2004, 11:25 AM
Time to move!

sturmruger
May 5, 2004, 12:08 PM
If you brother would have shot this loony I think it would be safe to say the cops would have charged him with something. The bottom line is if the DA would decide to prosecute him. If i were you I would have him read some of Massad Ayoob's books. The one I remember is In the Gravest Extreme it is an excellant book that talks about how to handle interactions with the police in the aftermath of having to defend yourself with deadly force.

The police have a job to do, and it isn't just picking up the body. Their job is to find any dirt they can to charge you with a crime. From a cops perspective most shooting are the result of illegal activity and they usually assume that something sinister was going on. If you brother can't move he needs to get educated fast in case this guy comes back for seconds. One wrong word to the police could end up with him getting prosecuted for a murder when all he was doing was degending his life.

sm
May 5, 2004, 12:09 PM
El Tejon summed it up. Eye 'contact is Percieved as a challenge or threat.

KAPOW -"it's on is correct as well.

My earlier experience mirrors what EL Tejon and others have described. I witnessed other "behavioral problems" as well.

We had automatic locks on the doors in the facility I was in. Imagine a dead end hallway, with two chairs a lamp table and lamp in between. One wall had a larger one-way mirror about 6' long. Double heavy duty locked doors at the other end. Looked like a waiting room without magazines ( these had been removed for my "assessment"...well there went one plan I had") Lamp was bolted to table which was bolted to floor...okay I had a lamp shade. Everthing else including chairs were bolted down.

I even had to remove my belt.

Sure happy we didn't "Let's Rodeo".

El T and the folks here on THR that are DRs, Ns, Professionals can better advise.

I decided to change studies in school, I do not regret the studies, or experiences I had. I still use the lessons learned.

This was a Private Facility. Other Students went to Hospitals, County or State Facilities. I and others chose the Private Facility because of instructor and the more hands on experience. [ what an understatement].

A lot of kids ( another reason I wanted to go). Many kids had been traumatized by parents, step parents and relatives. Drug/Alcohol Abuse provided many patients.

Ages ran from First grade on up to Geriatric.

Multiple Personalities was a real eye opener. I had just been "buzzed" into the Teen Unit. From out of nowhere a 13 yr old girl came at me like a Train, Head down and ready to run me over. Not wanting to step aside and let her hit the metal door head on, I decided to try and "bear hug" and break momentum.

We both flew through the metal doors and I held on to her as tight as could. My legs wrapped around hers to keep from being kicked, my back being hit upon. She couldn't bite me- because I had her held to low on her body.

3 folks came to help, IIRC Thorazin was pushed while I held her. It took every bit of 10 l-o-n-g minutes for her quit fighting , wrestling. I was plum wore out. I bet this teenage girl at 5' or so didn't weigh 80 - 85 #.

When she finally went limp, I got up, picked her like one would a child most of her onto my shoulder. Carried her to where she needed to be.

Voices told her that guy [me] was her Step Dad. She just associated me with him. I look nothing like her Step Dad. Doc said she had seen me in the Hallway and had been planning on her attack.

Yeah - I recommend folks read up. Awareness is good, having some education, and knowledge of local reg's is great too. All kinds of folks out there. Never know the why - be observant.

atk
May 5, 2004, 12:16 PM
I have personal experience with dealing with several people afflicted by mild manic-depression. It's not easy.

What I write is from my limited understanding of the disease, and my personal experience with people afflicted by it. Your mileage may vary.

Depression seems easier to deal with - you just need to be there for the person. Let them talk. Encourage them to keep going. If you're supporting the person, don't ever give up on them. By doing whatever you can, and making sure the person knows you'll be there, and by feeling completely impotent, you help.

When manic, a person loses much of their judgement. They may become promiscuous, violent, or anything. It's impossible to tell what will set them off when already manic, or even what will incite mania (some manic depressives can cycle in minutes, some cycle over years, others are anywhere in between).

I've had to spend hours talking to someone, manic at the time, completely irrational and running on emotion. I had to pry at this person's emotions, carefully phrase my words, acknowledge feelings, prevent the conversation from going on tangents, and just about become completely exhausted, to convince them that a decision would work out for the worse.


Once set off, the common description is one's "motor is running". Once the motor starts, it seems to feed itself, revving faster and faster, pushing the mania faster and faster, further and further, as though trying to break, so that the individual can rest. Mania can last from seconds to weeks.

When manic, people will generally start many projects and never finish them. For example, one might wake up at 1:00 a.m., and start painting a room. At 2:00 (with open paint cans, and one half painted wall), they might decide to make breakfast. At 2:15, they may decide to wash the car. At 2:25, vacuum. At 2:50, watch a movie.


If you meet someone who is manic depressive, the first thing to realize (and this sounds rather harsh) is that it's not your problem. It is their problem - you're just a witness to it, and you may become support.

The next thing to do is decide if you want to support this person. Remember, that means you need an unbreakable bond (even if the person tries to seriously injure you, or themselves, you can't give up), and that it will be a lifetime commitment. If they're not family, and not a close friend, and they're not your patient, then stay away. The person is a danger to themselves and possibly to those around them, so you need to be sure you're willing to get into a really bad spot, for a very long time (years) to help get this person out - if they can be helped at all.

Third, you cannot be the only support for this person. Other family members, friends, etc. must help. No matter how strong you are, you're not strong enough. It may take years, but you will become worn out. Other people need to be around so that you can take breaks and recharge. And you need to be around so they can take breaks and recharge.

Fourth, the person needs ongoing medical assistance from a qualified psychiatrist (a psychologist can't prescribe medications). There are many medications that can help, but people may develop a tolerance to them, making them ineffective. Also, not all medications work with all people, so some trial and error is necessary (which can be extremely discouraging for the sick person - but you can't give up! You must remain optimistic that a cure is out there!). Also, the medication may help, but it may not be sufficient to solve the problem.


Finally, I recommend reading Call Me Anna (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553272055/qid=1083771472/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/102-0619820-5036947?v=glance&s=books&n=507846). It made it a little easier for me to understand what was going on.

MaceWindu
May 5, 2004, 12:45 PM
A great deal of you are saying that this person would be in deep if the hammer would have dropped?!

You have some psycho chasing you and physical force obviously was not working (see hockey stick, blood).

A person with mental disorders has the adrenlin working overtime in many cases giving them the strength of 2 or 3 people. He obviously was in a great deal of fear...and danger.

What should he have done if Joe Schmoe was to enter the room? No sarcasm intended here, but a legit question:

#1: Get the $@%# beat out of him

#2: Cover himself with his arms and legs and hopes the guy does not hurt him too bad?

#3: He was trapped in a room, so retreat at that point was not gonna happen...?!

I would really like to know what to do?

Now I have kids, some nut job enters the house and is in hot pursuit I HAVE no choice: he gets a chest full of lead from the M1014

I will take my chances in court, rather than attend a funeral for my wife or my child :fire:


MaceWindu

MaceWindu
May 5, 2004, 12:48 PM
When the cops show up they get one statement:

"I was in fear for my life and the life of my wife and Kids, I would like to speak to my lawyer NOW..."


MaceWindu

Quartus
May 5, 2004, 01:09 PM
1. Don't take legal advice from LEO's. Most don't know the laws well enough to understand them.


That's good advice. So's this:


When the cops show up they get one statement:

"I was in fear for my life and the life of my wife and Kids, I would like to speak to my lawyer NOW..."




I've been around a few schizos. The closest I've come to violence was getting suddenly kissed on the cheek. :D She had rolled her car, and I was the guy who stopped and rendered aid, after the three cars in front of me drove right on by. :fire: Stopped in at the E-room later to check on her. That's when she tagged me. Classic big red lipstick smackeroo. I didn't realize I'd been branded, and went on my way to church like that. :D


The other encounters were scary enough to make me decide to follow one rule when dealing with mentally ill persons - distance, lots of distance, is my friend. I'll call for help if needed, but I'm not going to try to play therapist. I'll leave that for the pros. I doubt if I can help anyway - likely do more harm than good.

The Real Hawkeye
May 5, 2004, 01:11 PM
The cop was mistaken. Cops are not lawyers. The only basis for whether it would have been a justified shooting for self defense would be if an ordinary and reasonable person would have felt in immanent threat to life or limb. Certainly, any ordinary person would have under the circumstances you describe. If you attempted to barricade yourself in the house, and failed, and then attempted to barricade yourself in a bedroom, and that too failed, no jury would convict you of murder if you shot the man after breaking through two barricades. Your brother acted more than reasonably in the situation, and the cop should have praised him for his extraordinary restraint, when he had evey right under the law to shoot the madman at the front door, and perhaps earlier. Once you leave, and the wild attacker follows you to continue the violent assault, you are within your rights to shoot in most states, even those that require retreat. Retreat means that you must attempt a retreat. If persued, however, you have only a limited capacity to run away, and the law does not require you to allow a madman to violently attack you, and perhaps cause serious bodily injury.

444
May 5, 2004, 01:13 PM
All this sounds like a normal work day in the life of a paramedic.
Only in addition to being off their medicaitons the patients are also high and drunk. And, they arn't locked up.

Zundfolge
May 5, 2004, 01:21 PM
Cops get there, and told him that if he would have shot him he would be in jail for murder.
Cops are not Lawyers is an understatement ... most of them barely know squat about the law so I'd ignore them.

Chances are if he'd have shot the guy he would be in a cell and charged with murder (which is different then being in jail for murder) but if the facts are as you say then he'd be released in short order and probably have charges dropped.


Here's the Mississippi code regarding "Justifiable Homicide"


Source (http://www.mscode.com/free/statutes/97/003/0015.htm)

SEC. 97-3-15. Homicide; justifiable homicide.

(1) The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or omission of another shall be justifiable in the following cases:

(a) When committed by public officers, or those acting by their aid and assistance, in obedience to any judgment of a competent court;

(b) When necessarily committed by public officers, or those acting by their command in their aid and assistance, in overcoming actual resistance to the execution of some legal process, or to the discharge of any other legal duty;

(c) When necessarily committed by public officers, or those acting by their command in their aid and assistance, in retaking any felon who has been rescued or has escaped;

(d) When necessarily committed by public officers, or those acting by their command in their aid and assistance, in arresting any felon fleeing from justice;

(e) When committed by any person in resisting any attempt unlawfully to kill such person or to commit any felony upon him, or upon or in any dwelling house in which such person shall be;

(f) When committed in the lawful defense of one's own person or any other human being, where there shall be reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury, and there shall be imminent danger of such design being accomplished;

(g) When necessarily committed in attempting by lawful ways and means to apprehend any person for any felony committed;

(h) When necessarily committed in lawfully suppressing any riot or in lawfully keeping and preserving the peace.

(2) As used in paragraphs (1)(c) and (1)(d) of this section, the term "when necessarily committed" means that a public officer or a person acting by or at the officer's command, aid or assistance is authorized to use such force as necessary in securing and detaining the felon offender, overcoming the offender's resistance, preventing the offender's escape, recapturing the offender if the offender escapes or in protecting himself or others from bodily harm; but such officer or person shall not be authorized to resort to deadly or dangerous means when to do so would be unreasonable under the circumstances. The public officer or person acting by or at the officer's command may act upon a reasonable apprehension of the surrounding circumstances; however, such officer or person shall not use excessive force or force that is greater than reasonably necessary in securing and detaining the offender, overcoming the offender's resistance, preventing the offender's escape, recapturing the offender if the offender escapes or in protecting himself or others from bodily harm.

(3) As used in paragraphs (1)(c) and (1)(d) of this section the term "felon" shall include an offender who has been convicted of a felony and shall also include an offender who is in custody, or whose custody is being sought, on a charge or for an offense which is punishable, upon conviction, by death or confinement in the penitentiary.


Don't let fear of some flatfoot's misinterpretation of the law stop you from defending your self ... it would suck to go to jail, but better jail then the morgue.


Never make eye contact - never!
Thats good to know ... we have a Paranoid Schizophrenic living next door ... mostly he just rants and raves about things and has loud arguments/fights with people who aren't there and talks to airplanes but he seems to be non confrontational.

HighPingSniper
May 5, 2004, 03:17 PM
Doesn't matter. And yes, the facts are as I say.

larry_minn
May 5, 2004, 03:22 PM
You brother did better then 75% of folks posting here (myself included) would likely do. He used minimum force to protect himself.
I have delt with one local gent who thankfully moved. Seems when he was off meds he learned he was needed on Mars to help them. He took a shotgun from neighbor and said neighbor asked me to come over with him and get his shotgun back. I REFUSED and told him call 911 and tell them EVERYTHING .
Well he got a idiot to go with him so two gents with shotguns (both 160lb dripping wet) after a 6'3" 300lb looney toon with shotgun (thankfully he didn't have any shells.) They wind up rolling in yard and THEN call Sheriff.
Worst thing IMO is they told Deputy that they had talked to me (in vein I told them to go get their shotgun back) So Sheriff/Deputy was upset with me. I was able to straiten that out finally. (course they still said I should have called them but I felt I was NOT involved "didn't want to be" so why give 3rd hand info when folks involved were SUPPOSED to call?)

duckfoot
May 5, 2004, 03:45 PM
I never said don't defend yourself, just that he had, just what might have been the aftermath if he had used deadly force.

A good shoot, is a good shoot is a good shoot, but then the silliness starts.

Like, a gentleman south of where I live had the same illness as the fella in the first post. He went off his meds and attacked his neighbor, who on his cell phone called the popo. While on the phone and ushering his family into the basement for protection, this truly whacko, dives through tiny basement window head first, and advances on the guys family. The "defender" advised the nutcase that he has a gun and do not come any further or he will shoot. One gun shot was recorded and then the popo showed up. Hell every badge in a 15 mile area hauled ass to that house. About as good a shoot as I have ever read about.

Aftermath


Defender was arrested for murder, then charged with manslaughter.

Body was autopsied for cause of death (silly, I know like every one couldn’t figure of that the big a$$ gunshot wound in his chest wasn't the cause, but it's the way the machine works)

Pistol was taken away and a ballistics test was done to insure that the gun that "defender” said he used was the pistol used in the shooting. (again silly but the machine works like that)

Defender was interviewed 18 times right after the shooting by 18 different badges asking the same questions.

Played court games for a few days and some DA tried to make a name for themselves pushed the case.

Case tossed out of court due the overwhelming evidence on “defender” side, (the 911 call is IMO saved his ass)

The SBI still tried to keep “defender” pistol and the county sheriff was asked to intervene.


If you shoot some one, this will happen, about 99 out of a 100 times. My advise and the advise of a judge I have spoken to, suggested this if you have to use deadly force. When the police arrive, shed some tears , say that you just did some thing that you never thought you would have to do, and that you will answer any questions and help in any way you can, but you will do it through your lawyer, and don’t say a damm thing else.

Smoke
May 5, 2004, 04:07 PM
Boy , you folks sure encounter some strange ones. I must not get out much....think I like it that way too.

Smoke

admar2
May 5, 2004, 05:05 PM
When the cops show up they get one statement:

"I was in fear for my life and the life of my wife and Kids, I would like to speak to my lawyer NOW..."


MaceWindu

I gotta agree, that's just about the exact words I'd use. and nothing more.

BHPshooter
May 5, 2004, 07:54 PM
Never make eye contact - never!

Wow. I'm glad I've just read some good explanations of WHY, because I look people in the eye always. I've always been told that it's respectful to look at those with whom you are conversing in the eye... but I guess you never know if they've got a mental illness or not.

I'll have to change that, I suppose.

Wes

JohnBT
May 5, 2004, 08:19 PM
I disagree about avoiding eye contact. What I've found to work the best is giving the person a slow, calm glance every so often just to let them know you're paying attention. You don't want to stare, but you don't want to act like you're totally ignoring them either. Don't make any quick moves one way or the other.

Appear to be very calm. :)

John

P.S. - I haven't seen very many people with actual multiple personalities in the past 30 years (32 counting grad school), but they're fascinating folks. One personality will need to wear glasses and another won't. One will appear to have serious personality problems and another won't. One personality will limp and the next one won't. If it isn't real then they should be in the movies and stop wasting their talent on people like me.

sm
May 5, 2004, 08:24 PM
There is a difference in making eye contact in conversation , and making eye contact. :scrutiny:
Hard to explain, but you can tell when someone is paying attention or when someone is paying "too much attention".

Granted some folks with problems don't require much of anything to set them off. Violence, cowering in corner sobbing, whatever.

It is not just folks in Medical , LEO , Legal that run across folks like this.

What about the folks pan-handling around your grocery store. The homeless near the intersections in a neighborhood, around the back way to pick up a child at school.

I just consider this thread, sharing of experiences,, of professionals [ not me ] a "heads up"... , just another tool in the toolbox, Labeled : Education.

One can better defend if the foe is identified / understood and the legal paremeters defined.

This includes protecting an individual from themself.

Quartus
May 5, 2004, 08:38 PM
Apparently, I can't spell schizophrenic.
Doesn't matter. And yes, the facts are as I say.




Ah, but the REAL question is, can the voices spell it?



BTW, welcome aboard!




Oh, and clean up your spelling, willya? :D


;)

The Real Hawkeye
May 5, 2004, 08:44 PM
In my opinion, after a justified shooting in self defense, you should merely say to the police officer, "I was forced to shoot in defense of my life." Then politely state that you need to speak to your lawyer before you say anything else.

sm
May 5, 2004, 08:52 PM
1) "I was in fear of my life" [ then "I" shut up]

2) "I am sure the voices you hear are real to you - no, I do not hear them".*

[* This is the correct response to give in the event someone with Mental Health problems should ask you. As per various Medical Professions.

posted for the benefit of a member whom didn't feel comfortable posting to ask.

atk
May 5, 2004, 09:30 PM
Heh - I just realized I didn't answer the original poster's question, at all :)

I think that your brother did the right thing, all the way through. Except he should have found out what he could about the disorder before approaching the individual. At least he'd have a clue about what's going on when something starts going on :)

Otherwise, he tried to be nice, then he tried to escape & evade, then he fought back.

It sounds like a lousy situation, and I can imagine if your brother feels bad. But your brother should remeber that it wasn't him that started the bad part of the confrontation, and he is responsible for protecting himself from attack, regardless of the state of mind of the attacker.

Zundfolge
May 5, 2004, 09:52 PM
Well, my crazy neighbor was out on his front porch as I was taking my trash out to the curb.

He said very matter-of-factly "Well, I think the Secretary of State just puts me in a bottle."


:scrutiny:


Apparently, I can't spell schizophrenic.
Doesn't matter. And yes, the facts are as I say.
I hope I didn't leave you with the impression that I thought you where being less then honest.

Oh and http://www.spellcheck.net/ lets you copy/paste a block of text into it and you can spell check :)


I disagree about avoiding eye contact. What I've found to work the best is giving the person a slow, calm glance every so often just to let them know you're paying attention.
Yeah, with "normal" people you're probably right, but I believe they where refering to Schizophrenics.


In my opinion, after a justified shooting in self defense, you should merely say to the police officer, "I was forced to shoot in defense of my life." Then politely state that you need to speak to your lawyer before you say anything else.
I agree ... the way I've heard it stated is "every word you say will cost you more money and headaches"

Jim March
May 5, 2004, 10:08 PM
It occurs to me that I've known a multiple personality case, and I've known another person who recovered from very long-term methamphetamine abuse and as a remaining side effect, had to avoid ordinary caffiene (yes, coffee/soda/tea) at all costs, or they went completely babbling loony :scrutiny:.

And those are NOT the weirdest individuals I've known. I've known two others that weren't mentally ill, they were even scarier. I refuse to talk about them until I know both are dead of a ripe old age. (They've each got about 20 years on me, so I've got a book waiting eventually...)

Denko
May 6, 2004, 01:59 AM
I worked at CA's maximum security state hospital for the criminally insane for 20 yrs.I always made direct eye contact when dealing with a patient.Tell your brother to move tomorrow.It will be the safest thing to do.This guy is not going to change, the risk of serious assault is great.Moving tomorrow will be far cheaper than his legal fees if he has to stop this guy.As has been stated contact an attorney.But the main advice, even if you have to max out your credit card is MOVE NOW!!!

nero45acp
May 6, 2004, 08:44 AM
I've worked as a psychiatric RN for the past 13 years and I always make eye contact and keep a calm demeanor when dealing with agitated patients. True multiple personalities are extremely rare. I've taken care of two in my career; that's 2 out of thousands of patients over the years. And I work at a high acuity, publicly funded, Baker Act receiving facility.
If I were your brother, before I went through the hassle of moving, I'd be calling the police trying to have this guy Baker-Acted (72 hour evaluation). If he's truly psychotic there's a pretty good chance he'll be committed by the court for treatment up to 6 months. And even when he's discharged it's very unlikely that he will be returning to his previous (unsupervised) residence. That's the way it works in FL. Other states' laws may differ slightly, but all have provisions for mandatory treatment for those that are a risk to themselves and/or others. If the cops won't Baker-act this guy, or he's discharged back home right away, then yes by all means find a new place. Just my 2 cents.



nero

pignock
May 6, 2004, 09:58 AM
In addition to the lawyer providing your bro with civil/criminal legal protection, he should also be able to help him break his lease - unsafe enviroment - that sort of thing.

As an aside, is there a network of pro - 2nd Ammendment attorneys one could use for reference in cases like this?


Keith

pignock
May 6, 2004, 09:58 AM
In addition to the lawyer providing your bro with civil/criminal legal protection, he should also be able to help him break his lease - unsafe enviroment - that sort of thing.

As an aside, is there a network of pro - 2nd Ammendment attorneys one could use for reference in cases like this?


Keith

bad_dad_brad
May 6, 2004, 07:07 PM
Whenever possible, mind your own business.

Quartus
May 6, 2004, 07:20 PM
Mind your own business, Brad.



:neener:



;)

dukeofurl
May 6, 2004, 09:45 PM
FWIW, I know this information from somehwhat firsthand experience -

If you DO manage to drop the hammer in self defense and get charged with murder, felony, first degree or otherwise - kiss your financial stability goodbye. Your legal fees can run $50k-100k at the drop of a hat. Something to think about before taking someone's life, even if they're trying to take yours.

Series 70
May 7, 2004, 02:16 PM
Your legal fees can run $50k-100k at the drop of a hat. Something to think about before taking someone's life, even if they're trying to take yours.

Not to minimize the financial issue, but if someone is trying to take my life the last thing I'll be thinking about are financial issues. I already considered the financial aspect before I chose to carry. If I ever do have to shoot, I hope the only thing in my mind will be front sight, press.

Zundfolge
May 7, 2004, 03:12 PM
Your legal fees can run $50k-100k at the drop of a hat.
Where do you get your figures?

The figures I've heard (which are based on actual cases) put the cost to defend yourself in a murder trial that comes from a self defense shooting to more in the $18k-$25k range.

Not chump change, but still a bit removed from "$50k-100k at the drop of a hat"

Rotty
May 7, 2004, 05:22 PM
Also....unless shes really cute, and not psycho, never try to make friends with someone because you feel bad for them!!!

Quartus
May 7, 2004, 05:29 PM
Rescue Romance is a bad idea no matter WHAT she looks like!




BTW, welcome aboard, Rotty!

westex
May 7, 2004, 07:02 PM
I really don't care if the guy is bipolar, tripolar, quadpolar, skitz, hates his mother or wets the bed. If he's forced his way into my home and I've smacked him twice in the head with a hockey stick and he's trying to knock down a locked door behind which is yours truly is holding a Beratta-he's toast.

And as for any legal repercussions are concerned just let me say I'm glad to live where I do. My only legal cost would be after the funeral suing his estate for the replacement cost of my door and any clean up cost.

dukeofurl
May 7, 2004, 11:41 PM
For those asking about my legal fee numbers - I know someone who was implicated in a murder charge. His legal defense bill STARTED at $50,000. Theres really no telling how high legal fees get until the whole thing is over. By the time you get a verdict, you may be within spitting distance of 6 figures.

seeker_two
May 8, 2004, 11:53 AM
dukeofurl: In that case, your friend needed to find another lawyer--one who's not in a dream world or just trying to scare your friend off w/ "sticker shock".

Lawyers don't all charge the same rates. Best to shop around BEFORE you need their services...:cool:

If you enjoyed reading about "Happened to my brother - What would you do?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!