Thinking about buying a PCC-9mm


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egd
April 20, 2016, 09:54 PM
I'm pretty sure I will get one in a month or so. I've just really started looking but so far I'm leaning toward the JR carbine or the ATI carbine and maybe the PSA model.
I want one that looks like an AR style rifle, 16" barrel, uses either Glock or some easy to get mags at a decent price, and is relatively accurate. I'd like it to use the same ammo I load for my pistol-a Walther PPQ, light to medium loads. I also would like it to be able to use AR replacement parts, like better trigger and maybe adjustable shoulder stock and hand grip. I may not change these, but I want the ability to do it if I decide to.
Any pros and cons of these models and suggestions of others are welcome. Thanks

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WardenWolf
April 20, 2016, 11:27 PM
Look at Rock River Arms (https://rockriverarms.com/). They make 9mm AR uppers and accessories. The magazines are proprietary, but you at least have the advantage that the gun will take all AR accessories. By the look of it, it should work with a standard AR lower as long as you change the buffer spring assembly and install a magwell block.

Here's their documentation: https://rockriverarms.com/images/products/rra_940Conv.pdf

There's also the Kel-Tec Sub2000 (http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/rifle/sub-2000). It uses Glock mags. And the Beretta CX4 Storm. And Just Right Carbines (http://www.justrightcarbines.com/JR_Carbine_Products.php). And the TNW Aero Survival Rifle

P.B.Walsh
April 21, 2016, 12:07 AM
PSA is selling Glock magazine AR-15 lowers. Definitely something to look at if going for a PCC.

Zach S
April 21, 2016, 12:40 AM
RRA mags are NOT proprietary. Their 9mm carbines are Colt Clones, and magazines are readily available.

eldon519
April 21, 2016, 06:38 AM
I've got a Colt 6951 that is one of my favorite rifles. Runs great. I like te Metalform mags such as the Brownells, PSA, Colt or obviously Metalform themselves.

egd
April 22, 2016, 09:22 AM
I just looked at a Colt yesterday evening in a store. Can the front sight be taken off? I like the gun bur I want front and rear sights that flip up. I believe magpul makes the kind I'd like.

bocefus78
April 22, 2016, 10:18 AM
Yes, the FSB can be removed on that colt. There is no gas system on a 9mm, so its only job is a sight.

I just built a 16" 9mm upper for my ar. Here is why I built instead of buying:

I wanted last round bolt hold open
I wanted to use my gisselle trigger

From my research, The PSA 9mm uppers do not have those features. I may be wrong, but I don't think so. I don't know anyone with one, so all I had to go by, was internet board talk.

I ended up using a spikes tactical bottom load mag block, ramped bcg, standard 5.56 upper, PSA smg mags, and kept the buffer in the lower original for easy swap back to 5.56

It's a blast to shoot and ultra cheap if you reload. It's also a great training tool. I highly recommend one.

HJ857
April 22, 2016, 10:18 AM
Yes, the front sight should come off like any AR front block. There's no gas system so there's no need to worry about covering a gas port.

bfoosh006
April 22, 2016, 10:39 AM
The current PSA "Colt" style uppers have a functioning bolt hold open / last round feature.

My "Hybrid" upper works great. And frankly... is far more accurate then I expected.

egd
April 22, 2016, 10:50 AM
OK, thanks guys.
Bocefus, do you know if the colt has last round hold open? that is something that I think I would like. Plus I have a feeling a really nice trigger is something else I'd change out later too. I really know almost nothing about ar's so I wouldn't know where to begin to build one.

bocefus78
April 22, 2016, 12:06 PM
egd,

I'm 99% sure it does. From my limited research, 2 things limit using LRBHO. Glock mags, and/or a top mount mag block. With a dedicated 9mm lower, you shouldn't have issues with LRBHO using colt (or colt style) mags.

If you want to upgrade triggers, MAKE SURE the bcg is ramped.

If you don't want a front sight installed, you can definetly build an upper for less $ using only a torque wrench (and punches if you want FA and a dust cover). This assumes you have a standard lower already.

Stripped upper $50
barrel but $10
9mm bbl $120ish
9mm bcg $150ish
FF handguard $75+
Flip up sites $80
Spikes Mag block $150 or Hahn precision $190
Mags $20 each at PSA
CH $10
muzzle device $10

Total: $675 or so. I bought parts on clearance and some used and had a lot less than that in it.

egd
April 22, 2016, 12:34 PM
What does it mean "the bcg is ramped"? Told ya-I'm a dummy about AR's. :-)

FireInCairo
April 22, 2016, 12:42 PM
I own the JR Carbine in 9mm and it's a real tack-driver (I love to get the opportunity to use that phrase).

I've run a couple hundred flawless rounds through it. You need a castle-nut to clean it properly. I put the Magpul back up sights on it and it's very accurate. I also threw a pistol light on the tactical forestock (which should hold up nicely).

Next to no recoil, of course. And I think that such a firearm does present a useful niche in home defense. If you wanted to get more oomph you could use one of those solid copper loaded bullets with it.

In fact, I'd like to see a penetration comparison between a 9mm carbine with solid copper cartridges versus a typical .556 or 7.62x39 cartridges. We might be surprised to find such a 9mm cartridge would vastly expand the rifle's abilities. Chopinbloc, you out there? :neener:

FireInCairo
April 22, 2016, 12:45 PM
Here's a picture comparing the looks of the JR Carbine (all the way to the right) with AR-15 style rifles:

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/files/2013/03/9mm-Carbines_002.jpg

bds
April 22, 2016, 01:19 PM
What does it mean "the bcg is ramped"?
If you use an unmodified bolt, you need to use shorter 9mm hammer to clear the bottom of the bolt. Ramped bolt allows the use of regular hammer so if you want to use the same lower for .223, you can simply swap out the upper and the 9mm buffer.

9mm buffer is heavier and required for more reliable function of your 9mm carbine ($15 at PSA) - http://palmettostatearmory.com/9mm-steel-body-buffer-assy.html

I have 17" Just Right carbine, built two 16" PSA 9mm carbines from MOE kits and recently ordered 16" PSA 9mm upper with keymod handguard. All current PSA 9mm uppers and complete carbines use the ramped "hybrid" bolt which is compatible with AR magwell block or glock based lowers.

The differences between JR and AR/PSA carbines are:

- JR carbine uses 1:16 twist rate barrels while PSA and most AR carbines use 1:10

- JR carbine uses modular magwell and can be converted to 9mm/40S&W/45ACP using caliber conversion kits

- AR/PSA carbines use more typical mag catch on the right side of the receiver but JR carbines use mag catch on the left side of the receiver

- JR carbine can use Glock, M&P and 1911 mags with magwell change while AR/PSA carbines use Colt or Glock mags depending on the receiver used

- PSA uppers do not use brass deflector and eject spent brass without issues for me (I use Caldwell/UTG brass catchers and they work well with JR and PSA uppers).

I am currently range testing how much 1:16 vs 1:10 barrel twist rate has on accuracy at 50/100 yards and if rain stops enough for a range trip, I could have a report by tonight - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=10228100#post10228100

I really know almost nothing about ar's so I wouldn't know where to begin to build one.
PSA has complete 16" 9mm uppers for $399 with front sight and $429 with keymod handguard - http://palmettostatearmory.com/ks-47-ar-47-ar-9/ar-9.html

You can then either order the PSA Glock lower or use AR lower with magwell block to use with Colt style stick mags (along with heavier 9mm buffer). If you are going to order Magpul flip up sights, I would order the 16" upper with keymod handguard for freefloated barrel.

I'd like it to use the same ammo I load for my pistol-a Walther PPQ, light to medium loads.
In the carbine load thread, I have found you need to maintain supersonic speed to target or your bullet may experience transonic effect which increases group size. I am currently testing lighter 100/115 gr bullets to keep them at supersonic speeds to 50/100 yards to avoid the transonic effect. So far, both 1:16 and 1:10 twist rates have stabilized the RMR thick plated bullets well and getting round holes on target around 1350 - 1450 fps (will be testing 1500+ fps today).

If you are shooting to 25 yards, light to medium pistol loads should be fine. But if you are shooting at longer 50/100 yard distances, expect more bullet drop and vertical stringing with slower target loads and may want to consider shooting faster lighter bullet loads.

eldon519
April 22, 2016, 02:01 PM
The Colt has last-round bolt hold-open.

egd
April 22, 2016, 02:09 PM
BDS, I've been following that thread and waiting for some more range results. As for twist rate, I noted the discussion there and was wondering-since on a 223 ar conventional wisdom is that the 1-7 rate is better suited for the heavier bullets (as opposed to the 1-9), would it not hold true that the 1-10 rate would be better with heavier (124) bullets and the 1-16 rate would be better for the lighter 100gr bullets.
My velocities have been around 1050-1150 depending on powder combos from my 5" pistol, so I think from a 16" rifle I should be up around 1350 or more. I too am using the RMR bullets.

FireInCairo
April 22, 2016, 02:44 PM
If you use an unmodified bolt, you need to use shorter 9mm hammer to clear the bottom of the bolt. Ramped bolt allows the use of regular hammer so if you want to use the same lower for .223, you can simply swap out the upper and the 9mm buffer.

9mm buffer is heavier and required for more reliable function of your 9mm carbine ($15 at PSA) - http://palmettostatearmory.com/9mm-steel-body-buffer-assy.html

I have 17" Just Right carbine, built two 16" PSA 9mm carbines from MOE kits and recently ordered 16" PSA 9mm upper with keymod handguard. All current PSA 9mm uppers and complete carbines use the ramped "hybrid" bolt which is compatible with AR magwell block or glock based lowers.

The differences between JR and AR/PSA carbines are:

- JR carbine uses 1:16 twist rate barrels while PSA and most AR carbines use 1:10

- JR carbine uses modular magwell and can be converted to 9mm/40S&W/45ACP using caliber conversion kits

- AR/PSA carbines use more typical mag catch on the right side of the receiver but JR carbines use mag catch on the left side of the receiver

- JR carbine can use Glock, M&P and 1911 mags with magwell change while AR/PSA carbines use Colt or Glock mags depending on the receiver used

- PSA uppers do not use brass deflector and eject spent brass without issues for me (I use Caldwell/UTG brass catchers and they work well with JR and PSA uppers).

I am currently range testing how much 1:16 vs 1:10 barrel twist rate has on accuracy at 50/100 yards and if rain stops enough for a range trip, I could have a report by tonight - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=10228100#post10228100


PSA has complete 16" 9mm uppers for $399 with front sight and $429 with keymod handguard - http://palmettostatearmory.com/ks-47-ar-47-ar-9/ar-9.html

You can then either order the PSA Glock lower or use AR lower with magwell block to use with Colt style stick mags (along with heavier 9mm buffer). If you are going to order Magpul flip up sights, I would order the 16" upper with keymod handguard for freefloated barrel.


In the carbine load thread, I have found you need to maintain supersonic speed to target or your bullet may experience transonic effect which increases group size. I am currently testing lighter 100/115 gr bullets to keep them at supersonic speeds to 50/100 yards to avoid the transonic effect. So far, both 1:16 and 1:10 twist rates have stabilized the RMR thick plated bullets well and getting round holes on target around 1350 - 1450 fps (will be testing 1500+ fps today).

If you are shooting to 25 yards, light to medium pistol loads should be fine. But if you are shooting at longer 50/100 yard distances, expect more bullet drop and vertical stringing with slower target loads and may want to consider shooting faster lighter bullet loads.
Excellent info

DivideByZero
April 22, 2016, 04:07 PM
Do you plan to shoot suppressed? If so, you should at least consider a CZ Scorpion. They suppress well, have no gas blowback in your face, have 30 round magazines available for ~$20, and can be folded up into a small package. Operating it in an SBR configuration will, however, require a tax stamp.

egd
April 22, 2016, 06:44 PM
No, I won't be shooting suppressed.

eldon519
April 22, 2016, 10:52 PM
I love my 9mm AR just because it is a cheap and easy training substitute for my identically setup 5.56 AR. Recoil feels very similar, but it is not so loud and blasty. Makes for a very comfortable extended range session and a great gun to introduce new shooters with.

tarosean
April 22, 2016, 11:03 PM
If you own a Glock already, something that accepts the mags is a definite plus.. Plus they are pretty darn cheap...

egd
April 22, 2016, 11:12 PM
Eldon, I went and looked at that Colt again today at the shop. I'm really drawn to it except for one thing. I don't like the front A type sight. I'd like to take it off and put some kind of a rail type handguard on in place of the round one that comes on it. The shop owner said that would be an expensive thing because you'd have to put on a different barrel (nut/holder-I don't remember what he called it) to hold the different handguard. Plus the cost of the handguard. Do you have any insight in this area? any advice? Have you ever taken your front sight off?

tarosean
April 22, 2016, 11:36 PM
^ yeah thats normal om any AR. changing out a D-ring so a free float handguard will cost a few bucks. can range from less than 100 to 700ish. depending on your tastes..

The front sight is just faux and can be removed at will as the 9mm AR's are Blowback operated.

eldon519
April 23, 2016, 02:05 AM
Like he said, you just tap out a couple pins and take off the muzzle break, and the front sight will slide right off.

In regard to what the gunshop owner said, you don't HAVE to do it that way. You could just install a railed front sight base in its place and put your flip-up front sight on it. But otherwise you would have to put some kind of railed handguard on there, probably a free-float, and yep, it would be expensive. Just out of curiosity, why do you want the flip-up front anyway?

eldon519
April 23, 2016, 02:09 AM
I should also add some companies make flip-up sight bases. Here is one example:
http://yhm.net/front-flip-sight-tower-standard.html

egd
April 23, 2016, 09:46 AM
Thanks for the link. As to why--I just don't like the looks of the A type front sight UNLESS it's with a retro looking gun, with carry handle, etc. Also, I suspect I would eventually put a red dot type of sight on it and (at least with all I've ever seen) I don't like seeing the front sight through the red dot, it's distracting to me. With the folding sights I could either just fold them down or take them off and be able to easily put them back if I wanted.

Oh yeah, I've been doing some more looking and PSA has a gun for $949 that looks pretty good to me, plus CMMG has one for $1149 that also looks good. Any opinions/advice on either of these??
http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-9mm-freedom-keymod-1-10-rifle.html
https://www.cmmginc.com/shop/rifle-mk9-t-9mm/

OcelotZ3
April 25, 2016, 12:40 AM
I've got an Aero Survival Rifle, Feather AT-9 and Beretta CX4 Storm PCCs. All great fun to shoot and accurate.

eldon519
April 25, 2016, 06:57 AM
Someone had a thread on here awhile ago about the PSA and had some trouble getting it to run I think. You might be able to search and find it. I am not sure if the guy just got the upper or a complete rifle. I'd recommend getting a complete rifle as the magazine insert/adapter seems to be a regular source of problems, and a complete rifle should have it permanently installed in the correct position.

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