Ammo vending machine.


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GigaBuist
May 5, 2004, 09:48 PM
Okay, so I got a weird idea from a buddy that's just started shooting. We're tech geeks, and the only range he really goes to is an indoor one that you can walk out of, get more ammo, and walk back to the firing line. Actualy the RO will grab you more ammo and put it on your account for you but he didn't know that.

However, he thought an ammo vending machine would be kinda neat.

Any thoughts? Maybe this would work for unattended ranges. My first though is it would be a HUGE target for criminals. Hey, free ammo AND money at night. Maybe that alone makes it a bad idea.

Ammo picky-ness also makes it a bad idea I suppose -- because not everybody wants to shoot cheap Wolf or PMC ammo. On top of that most serious shooters probably have enough on hand anyway. However, in my early days there were times I was caught with just a 9mm pistol and 100 rounds of ammo and wanted to shoot more. No stores around for 20 miles.

Then, there's the whole problem with "being 18" to buy rifle ammo.

I did think it was a neat idea though. Maybe, if it's run by the local DNR or something, they could sprinkle them around the parks and what not.

Far fetched idea -- but, any thoughts?

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winstonsmith
May 5, 2004, 09:50 PM
That would be interesting. However, I doubt that criminals would go for the vending machine when they have all the rental guns to go for.

4v50 Gary
May 5, 2004, 09:55 PM
Sounds neat. It adds a new meaning to "Good and Plenty."

lee n. field
May 5, 2004, 09:55 PM
Then, there's the whole problem with "being 18" to buy rifle ammo.

You're supposed to be 18 to by cigarettes too. That doesn't stop their being vending machines for them.

I could picture a machine to dispense, say, 25 rounds of .22LR for a buck.

McNutt
May 5, 2004, 10:23 PM
I'm assuming the ammo doesn't drop like the Twinkies do.

buy guns
May 5, 2004, 10:36 PM
"My first though is it would be a HUGE target for criminals."


actually vending machines are alot harder to break into than you think, especially ones where you would have to be quiet about it.


i think this is a great idea too. with todays technology i bet you could design a scanner to scan your drivers license to verify your age. i imagine you could price the ammo lower than local stores because the vending machine is your only expense. i bet some decent cash could be made off this idea.

SodaPop
May 5, 2004, 10:43 PM
LOL!!

I own a vending company in the Philadelphia area and have thought about that. One of my accounts is www.doubleaction.org (an indoor pistol range) and the topic has come up.


It isn't a safe idea.


Here's why......


Would you stand next to a box of 45acp that falls from 5ft? That's about how far of a drop the top shelf is on the average snack machine.

Question:

How many of you have ever had something get stuck on a snack machine? What did you do?

Answer:

Pound the crap out of it!!


Result: Free ammo starts falling from the first row of goodies. Now you have boxes of ammo falling from 1ft-5ft up.

Your clothes will be bullet ridden and the machine will probable explode.:uhoh:

It would be fun but too much of a liability.


Lucky me though.

I have a soda machine in my house that dispenses beer:neener: but I could stock another machine with ammo since i have the keys to open it if something gets stuck.

:evil: :evil:

4v50 Gary
May 5, 2004, 10:49 PM
Poooh on all these fears. ;) So long as we don't load the machine with percussion caps and 1 lb cans o' blackpowder, I'm sure everything will be A.O.K.:uhoh:

Andrew Rothman
May 5, 2004, 10:56 PM
There's more than one way to disinderm a feline.

The soda machine at my local range has a little elevator that fetches the soda from the shelf and carries it to the exit.

It's a neat idea. If anything, it'll be the legal issues that stop an idea like this.

Still, it might be a solution in search of a problem.

Navy joe
May 6, 2004, 12:17 AM
I won't be satisfied until I see the .380 vending machine in the gas station restroom right next to the glow in the dark condom machine.

buy guns
May 6, 2004, 12:34 AM
Would you stand next to a box of 45acp that falls from 5ft? That's about how far of a drop the top shelf is on the average snack machine.


good point. what about those vending machines that hold big sandwiches and rolls? there is a door for each level and you can spin the shelves to display what you want. then you just open the door and grab your food. theres nothing to fall or get stuck.

lycanthrope
May 6, 2004, 01:15 AM
How about foam packaging? I'm sure the cost would be inflated (just like soda/pop) anyhow.......

Black92LX
May 6, 2004, 01:24 AM
Would you stand next to a box of 45acp that falls from 5ft? That's about how far of a drop the top shelf is on the average snack machine.

What about the machines that use a convayer belt system so the soda doesn't get all shaken up. the pop doesn't fall anywhere. or the ones that use the vacuum system to pick it up and set it down?? or the ones that have the spinning displays and you push the button to spin to the one you want and just slide open the door?

I think this could be a good idea. but who knows.

SodaPop
May 6, 2004, 02:00 AM
You can always design some new gadget to make it work safer.


It can be done, but a loaded vending machine with ammo may weigh thousands of pounds. Most of my machines (snack machines) are the ones with the metal spirals between the items. Usually about 12-18 items deep for each colum. Something like a 23 selection vending machine that is 18 items deep could hold 414 boxes of ammo (20,000rds of ammo) and that is a really small machine.

Most Pepsi and Coke machines only weigh 350-400lbs loaded.

Treylis
May 6, 2004, 02:03 AM
What about the machines that use a convayer belt system so the soda doesn't get all shaken up. the pop doesn't fall anywhere. or the ones that use the vacuum system to pick it up and set it down?? or the ones that have the spinning displays and you push the button to spin to the one you want and just slide open the door?

Out of those, I'd say that the vacuum system is probably unrealistic. It's one thing to vacuum up a 5-ounce ice cream bar, it's another thing to vacuum up a 50-round (or 100) box of .45ACP.

GigaBuist
May 6, 2004, 03:30 AM
Wow, I suspected a huge number of "that's retarded" posts coming out. I'm surprised as all get out that it's received that much "might be a good idea" posts.

For what it's worth I currently contract as a software developer at a company that was once known for vending machines. Some of the above methods described were created by engineers that I work with right now. Sooo.... creative ideas to the problem could be hashed out over a lunch break pretty easy :)

The original idea was more like a golf ball dispenser at a driving range. Put bucket under spout, ammo drops out. OK, maybe not the SAFEST thing in the world -- but centerfire stuff should be OK so long as it doesn't drop more than a few inches at a time.

I like the idea of a .380 vending machine next to condoms too -- especially in a womans's bathroom. For protection, go latex. For the ULTIMATE protection to FMJ .380. Oh heck, lets put some quality JHP .45's in there too. :D

J.J.
May 6, 2004, 03:50 AM
Legailty is the problem. You can't just swipe a drivers liscense because well its really easy to steal a persons liscense that is over 21.

Thats the biggest problem i see with it ohh and the marchers who would ban them for the children.

Nightcrawler
May 6, 2004, 04:13 AM
At my school there're the most Rube Goldberg-ian-ly overcomplicated pop machines. A little elevator bar comes up to the level of the item being dispensed. This elevator has a conveyor belt on it that pushes the pop bottle to the right, wherein it is deposited in the vending chute.

In any case ammo doesn't explode when you drop it. Firearms would be patently unsafe to carry if ammo was that unstable.

Treylis
May 6, 2004, 05:28 AM
Legailty is the problem. You can't just swipe a drivers liscense because well its really easy to steal a persons liscense that is over 21.

As somebody already noted above, age restrictions haven't stopped people from making and using cigarette machines.

BluesBear
May 6, 2004, 05:34 AM
Result: Free ammo starts falling from the first row of goodies. Now you have boxes of ammo falling from 1ft-5ft up.
Your clothes will be bullet ridden and the machine will probable explode Poppycock. Any ammunition THAT sensitive would be dangerous to load more than one round in a firearm. The recoil from one would set off the others.

what about those vending machines that hold big sandwiches and rolls? there is a door for each level and you can spin the shelves to display what you want. then you just open the door and grab your food. theres nothing to fall or get stuck. Now THAT is a GREAT idea. That type of machine would work quite well.

atek3
May 6, 2004, 05:44 AM
wasn't there ammo vending machines in an l neil smith book?

atek3

crewchief
May 6, 2004, 06:17 AM
Say like this actually could be done both legaly and phisically I know some people;) that would probaly put alot of finacial backing twords this. One thing that can solve both the age verification issue and the fact that this ammo would not be the cheapest is to use credit card scanners for age verification and the only method of payment. Tipically you have to be 18 to own a credit card and if you make this the only form of payment then it can be argued that it is an age verification tool. Also you have to look at the aspect of the cost of the ammo, it would not be cheap and I doubt that someone wants to fiddle with bill readers repeatidly or change. Another issue would being able to stock enough ammo into a reasonable sized machine. My solution would be to do away with actuall boxs but rather have large hoppers that can hold at least 5,000rds. of each caliber. Say you keep it down to the most popular loads like .45, .40, 9mm, .357mag, .44mag, .38spl. Now granted you only have 6 calibers and thier all pistol but who says you can't have seperate machines. Now the pistol calibers would be in 6 big hoppers that carry 5,000 a piece. Since thier is no boxs per say you have a slot on the side of the machine that hold little colapsable boxs. What the shooter does is grab a box stick in the money pick a caliber and it comes out a little chute waist high that he holds the box under. Now you are all probaly wondering what about different brands, well tough if you are buying ammo out of a machine chances are you are hard up for ammo and PMC or Winchester white box will do just fine. Now that takes care of the pistol shooters. The rifle shooters would have a seperate machine like the sandwitch machines mentioned above where they maybe not get as much quantity but rather quality and choice. You would have a decent selection of most rifle calibers and different brands for each caliber from the cheapest you can find all the way up to hunting or match target ammo. Since highpower rifle shooters really never shoot that much in the way of quantity it would be more typical to see them only need one good box of 20. I would have some slots though that would have like 5 boxs of .223 in one slot because that tends to get shot more in quantity. Now here is the third machine for the .22's. Picture a machine with one massive bin that contains say 100,000 remington bulk pack .22's and this machine has a dispensing chute with a trap door you open and dispense into a bucket below. Now this bucket is completely contained in a sealed encloser and under the bucket is a built in scale. What the shooter does is pull a lever on the side of the machine which starts the flow of .22's into this bucket and once it looks like enough for him he stops. From that point the bucket is weighed and from the weight a price is configured. He pops in his credit card and once it is done processing a access door on the encloser to the bucket electronicly unlocks. From there the shooter tips the bucket which is mounted on hinges and pours the bullets into a plastic bag that is provided, the bucket is returned upright the door is locked again and the machine is ready for the next shooter. There you go my solution to the unsupervised ammo machine hut.


Yes yes I know I have one hell of an imagination, but I am told it comes up with some fabulous ideas:D

crewchief
May 6, 2004, 06:56 AM
This is a little update on the post that I just made above. I have logged this as an original idea of mine and I expect people on here to treat and respect my ideas as my own. I have copyrighted and have had ideas of mine in the past protected as well as my designs. Please don't take this as a off the wall remark as I have had ideas of mine stolen in the past and marketed without my knowladge or consent. I will be working feverishly on design layouts for the above mentioned machines and plan on getting those layouts protected for my benifit. If anybody on here actually likes any of these ideas and are serious and genuine in the idea of persuing a ammo dispensing machine I urge them to contact me at dinkyaparicio@aol.com I ask that the members here at THR treat these posts as genuine, for many inventions in the world have come from ideas that people mocked or scoffed at before. Now some of these inventions have revolutionized the way we live (microwave, dishwasher, remote control). So please I ask that you don't mock me for some day you may see a ammo vending machine at a range near you and you can turn to your shooting buddy and say, "Hey I knew the inventor of this machine and I was there when his idea actually came to him on 'The High Road'." :D

Smoke
May 6, 2004, 08:28 AM
Would you stand next to a box of 45acp that falls from 5ft? That's about how far of a drop the top shelf is on the average snack machine.
'
That wouldn't bother me in the least. If ammo goes off from a 3-ft fall...there is something severly wrong. :what:

Smoke

TechBrute
May 6, 2004, 09:09 AM
Good idea. Too hard to implement properly. Good luck.

GSB
May 6, 2004, 09:29 AM
I'd like to see them vend actual pistols as well. ("Let's see, Les Baer, that's E3... [press]... arg! I pressed E4, that's a Lorcin!")

Sisco
May 6, 2004, 09:52 AM
Haven't cigarette machines been pretty much banned? I haven't seen one of those in years.

Waitone
May 6, 2004, 10:02 AM
Can you imagine the reaction among professional blissninnies?

Oh, the humanity of it all! Baby killing bullets available to one and all!

We'd have mass faintings throughout the US. Feinstein would swoon. Schumer would grin and grab a TEC. Rosie O would demand a concession to keep her body guard properly armed. MMM would have a march.

The social chaos would simply be too high. We must stiffle your idea. It is entirely too dangerous for our society to tolerate it.

You, you with the idea. Report to your closest reducation camp. These thoughts of capitalism must be corrected.

Teufelhunden
May 6, 2004, 10:06 AM
good point. what about those vending machines that hold big sandwiches and rolls? there is a door for each level and you can spin the shelves to display what you want. then you just open the door and grab your food. theres nothing to fall or get stuck.

This type of machine could sell ammo with no modifications whatsoever. Perhaps the key to making sure ammo is not illegally obtained would simply be placement of the machine. For example, I know there have been times I've left the range simply because I ran out of ammo before I ran out of desire to shoot. An ammo dispenser placed behind the firing line in easy access to the shooters would have kept me there and generated a fair amount of revenue for the range owner. Access to the ammo would be restricted simply because it's on the range, which is populated by people who obviously can legally obtain ammunition.

-Teuf

Trebor
May 6, 2004, 10:26 AM
This is a little update on the post that I just made above. I have logged this as an original idea of mine and I expect people on here to treat and respect my ideas as my own. I have copyrighted and have had ideas of mine in the past protected as well as my designs. Please don't take this as a off the wall remark as I have had ideas of mine stolen in the past and marketed without my knowladge or consent.

Sorry, but you can't copyright an idea. You can't get a patent for just an idea either.

Now, you can legally protect designs and specific work done to create designs, but the original idea is out there for others to work on as well.

another okie
May 6, 2004, 10:26 AM
I belong to Red Castle Gun Club in Tulsa. The vending machine that sells pop and candy bars there also sells .22 lr boxes. It works fine. The club does have a gate, and the machine is in the locked clubhouse, so I guess the security concerns are not a big problem.

Crewchief: I understand your concerns, but as you can see you are a little late in claiming to own the idea. Besides, you can't really "own" or "steal" an idea. To the extent ideas can be protected at all they must be patented, not copyrighted. You cannot protect a patent by just saying "it's mine" as you can with copyright. If you truly want to pursue this as a business opportunity you need to see a lawyer that specializes in intellectual property and be prepared to lay out some cash. I hope it works out. It would be great to see more vending machines like that.

There are different types of intellectual property. You could copyright an ad for the machines. You could patent a new type of machine that sells ammo. You could trademark a cute name for the business. But ideas themselves are very hard to protect in our legal system. That's why to be successful you have to do the work yourself. Bill Gates didn't get rich from writing the code for Windows, but by making and selling the product.

mvpel
May 6, 2004, 10:33 AM
Snapple machines drop glass bottles from 3-4 feet - it's just a design issue.

Bacchus
May 6, 2004, 10:58 AM
I don't think that you can put forth an idea, let the members of THR refine it, and then try to "copyright" it.

Bacchus
May 6, 2004, 10:58 AM
I don't think that you can put forth an idea, let the members of THR refine it, and then try to "copyright" it.

Bacchus
May 6, 2004, 11:01 AM
I don't think that you can put forth an idea, let the members of THR refine it, and then try to "copyright" it.

sturmruger
May 6, 2004, 11:21 AM
My favorite idea is the one with the ammo contained in a bulk container.

It would be hard to put these machines in ranges that are regularly staffed. They want to sell you there ammo and won't be too interested in you buying differant ammo. There are allot of ranges that are not staffed, these machines might be a good idea for them.

PaladinVC
May 6, 2004, 11:40 AM
For some more feedback, I'm going to drop this idea at The Half-Bakery (http://www.halfbakery.com). Let's see what those crazies have to say about it.

Edit: Okay, here it is: Link (http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Ammo_20Vending_20Machine)

I refrained from mentioning this thread or The High Road, since I wasn't sure it would be okay to run the risk of attracting madmen to this forum. This idea is a little out of the mainstream for THR. Just don't think I'm trying to hijack the idea.

One more thing, are there laws regarding flammable/explosive objects in vending machines? I've seen matches and lighters in machines, but I'm not sure if ammo or primers would be problematic.

The Undertoad
May 6, 2004, 01:01 PM
Good idea, I would love to see this implemented. Hate it when you run out of .45 at the range and the nearest place you know of to buy is a 45 minute drive. :(

Waitone, you slay me! :D

LiquidTension
May 6, 2004, 01:22 PM
They have beer vending machines on the side of the road in Japan. Totally off topic, but interesting anyway.

junyo
May 6, 2004, 02:02 PM
http://www.photomann.com/japan/machines/

Missouri Mule
May 6, 2004, 02:13 PM
"Thanks for the hardball..Mckey!".

Sorry folks, but it was looking like nobody was gonna do it.
And, it just had to be done.....

If it has to be explained your better off not knowing!:neener:

sm
May 6, 2004, 02:26 PM
Well we have vending machines that sell fish bait here in AR. :D
Cricketts, redworms, nightcrawlers, wax worms, and whatever that worm is simialr to the wax worm is.

These are like the ones in a snack bar, with the refrigde , shelf dealie. ( Sandwiches , milk and such). Fisherman shows up in wee hours before bait shop opens, next to the soda maching, gets a soda , bait and ready to go. Even hooks, bobbers and such.

I understand the legal deaile ( don't like or agree) , but hey, seems like a great way to manage time and employee/customer service. If I want a box of ammo, and I know what I want, let me get it.

Allow the gun behind the counter to make a sale on a gun, keep an eye on range, whatever. Time mgmt, for both of us. Especially for once a fella is signed in. Needs a box of 22lr, 9mm, 38 spl, 45ACP. MOre popular ammo, ear plugs, small bottle of lube...sounds like a great idea to me.

Works for bait, sandwiches, sodas, popcorn, aspirin...

SodaPop
May 6, 2004, 02:48 PM
In any case ammo doesn't explode when you drop it. Firearms would be patently unsafe to carry if ammo was that unstable.


Technical error:

Excuse me... the primers could go off if something jammed or hit them. Not to mention if you didn't take the first box of ammo out before you made another selection.:mad: :neener:

MeekandMild
May 6, 2004, 04:15 PM
Problems exist with temperature and humidity control.

carpettbaggerr
May 7, 2004, 01:16 AM
C'mon Bacchus tell us what you really think :neener:

raz-0
May 7, 2004, 01:33 AM
I've thought about the idea myself for the indoor range at my gun club.

something like one of these soap vending machines.

http://www.econovend.com/cat/Imgs/cat2802.gif

smallish, doesn't drop anything, etc....

Something generally reliable and cheap like S&B would fit in them.

The main problems are weight of items, and accepting the cash for the relatively high priced ammo.

J.J.
May 7, 2004, 01:39 AM
Regarding the credit cards and 18 bit. Well I have heard stories about someones 6 year old getting a credit application so...

sorry couldn't resist

BluesBear
May 7, 2004, 02:54 AM
Excuse me... the primers could go off if something jammed or hit them. Not to mention if you didn't take the first box of ammo out before you made another selection Do you think one box would set off another box?
Have you never seen somebody drop a box or ammo onto a concrete floor at a gunshow or gunshop?
What about all of that Georgia Ammo that's shipped all over the country in plastic bags?

It takes a well defined primer strike to fire a cartridge.

crewchief
May 7, 2004, 03:11 AM
Trebor,

I was not actually talking about copyrighting the idea of a ammo vending machine but rather the designs of the machines I have described. I have drafted many designs in the past and have actually had some designs protected for my beniefit. I have spoken to many patent lawers before about other designs that I have, like I am currently in the process of patenting an aftermarket part I have designed for the 10/22. I am sorry if I sounded harsh to the members here, but I have had a-holes before steal a design of mine (blueprints and all) and try to claim it as thiers and market it because of my ignorance at the time and freely shareing information in a marketing sense. It is a harsh world out there if you ever happen to have a cleaver idea for a product and you want to bring it to market.

Morgan
May 7, 2004, 07:20 AM
Automat!

http://www.judygarland.net/automat2.jpg

Or a more modern one:

http://home.earthlink.net/~ggbridge/images/eurosmall/automat.jpg


I love the idea, impractical though it may be.

sch40
May 7, 2004, 11:21 AM
Great idea. The credit card payment/verification thing might work well too (although I've been in two bars and a restaurant with a cigarette vending machine lately - no problems).

I use an unmonitored range for most of my shooting and, from experience, the vending machine should also offer targets and small rolls of duct tape :uhoh: :D

erikm
May 7, 2004, 02:02 PM
An interesting idea, but it could do with some refinement.

Security and safety would probably be doable. Look at how ATMs are built and work. While I've heard of cases where crooks have shown up with power shovels and hauled of entire ATM machines, they're generally reasonably secure. As for safely dispensing ammo, how about packing it in rigid bars (a bar of .45 please :) ), loading the bars in a magazine and using machinery similar to an ATM's to strip bars from magazines as needed and neatly deposit them in a delivery basket before opening the blast shield covering said basket. You can't see the ammo storage, but really, do you need to?

BTW Morgan; the stuff being offered for sale in the lower automat photo is cheap (and IMO inedible) fast food. And the photo was quite likely taken in the Netherlands.

Cheers,
ErikM :evil:

PaladinVC
May 7, 2004, 02:25 PM
FEBO! :D

Oh, man, I remember eating FEBO shoarma burgers. Never again. Good "Boom Chicago" sketch, tho:

1: "Are you Mr. Febo?"
2: "No, but I work for him."

Eventually the guy's hand gets ripped off in the little door and a German tourist buys and eats it. Hilarious.

sch40
May 7, 2004, 02:59 PM
I think that a little more security (from theft, not "fOr ThE cHiLdReN!!!") would probably be a good idea (we're not selling chips and Ho-hos here). But I think that a large amount of that security would come from just keeping the machine stocked well: someone mentioned a few posts ago of having 6 hoppers full of 5,000 rounds of ammo. That's a LOT of weight -- try pulling that with your broken-down jalopy :D

FSCJedi
May 7, 2004, 04:28 PM
This is me subscribing to this thread because I think this idea has a lot of merit.

BluesBear
May 7, 2004, 11:43 PM
FSCJedi you could have just as easily clicked on the "Subscribe to this Thread" button at the bottom of the page.
:) Thank you though, for at lease being polite enough to post some sort of message. Those who simply type a "." are annoying.

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