Why open carry is bad.


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fjolnirsson
May 6, 2004, 07:04 AM
So, it seems as though around 19% of the THR general gun posters feel that open carry is bad. Why do you feel that way? Scaring the soccer moms? targeted first for crime?

(edited to add)Those of you who feel open carry is a good thing, please see my recent poll on open carry. This poll is for those who don't agree with it.
(Edited for PC)

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cdbeaver
May 6, 2004, 07:25 AM
I live in a state where open carry is the only option. Concealed carry is illegal for every one except LEO.

Open carry is very legal, yet I never see any one carrying in public areas. In rural sites it might be done, but certainly not at the malls, restaurants, etc.

The reason I don't carry is that I don't need the hassle from the cops. In Omaha, largest city in the state, local ordinance requires a permit to carry, even in the open. So far as I know, that's the only municipality that has such a law.

While it is legal elsewhere, law enforcement people might easily arrrest you for "brandishing" a weapon merely because it is visible. You might have a right to carry openly in this state, but LE doesn't want you to do it.

Shovelhead
May 6, 2004, 07:25 AM
Need an "All of the above" choice. ;)

Shovelhead

BeLikeTrey
May 6, 2004, 07:31 AM
My reason, so you never know exactly who's carrying. Could be me could be her. If it's open carry only, and you see no gun your chances are good they aren't LEO. So rob 'em. with concealed.... who knows... so better not try to rob anyone. My .02$.

SapperLeader
May 6, 2004, 07:47 AM
I need a none of these reasons option.

My main reason is not one of concern, but hassle factor. With the exception of my two siblings, none of my family knows i carry, and would annoy the crap out of me with all their questions on why. Also, most of the big stores around me will ask you to leave if you open carry, but dont know if your concealed.. I work or go to school 6.5 days a week, and when i have time to run a errand, i dont want to get into a discussion of my 2nd ammendment beliefs.
I do think open carry has a lot going for it, less paperwork hassle, and a little more comfortable. It would be real nice to not worry about a cover garment this summer when it gets over 110 degrees or warmer.

Viking6
May 6, 2004, 07:49 AM
I don't think open carry is bad but for me as I've said on other threads, it's a privacy issue. It's my right to bear arms; but I prefer to exercise that right in privacy. In honesty, there probably is an element of not wanting to freak out folks. I'm kinda old school in my thinking, in that I prefer to move through life without making waves cuz I made enough of those in my youth. If open carry was the only way to guarantee our 2nd Amendment rights, then I might change my mind.

gggman
May 6, 2004, 07:53 AM
Would you put a sign on your house....."Yes, this house contains guns", or "NO, this house contains no guns". ???
That woud certainly let the criminals know which houses to rob or not rob.
It's the same with my person. Does a potential mugger know I'm carrying, or do I look like an easy target?
Keep the muggers and rapists guessing.:scrutiny:

Soap
May 6, 2004, 12:20 PM
It depends. If I'm open carrying I'm most likely going from my home directly to the range, and back. A few more instances where I would open carry would be in the privacy of my home, while hunting, in the wilderness, or if I were far into a rural area. If I expect to encounter any other people I always conceal.

d-mac
May 6, 2004, 12:28 PM
If you are going to put up a poll, there should be the ability to answer it. And Since I agree with it, there is no option to choose.

You should have the ability to reflect all and not steer a question for lack of needed selections.

JMHO
:cuss:

Wildalaska
May 6, 2004, 12:34 PM
I dont like it ergo I must be a "sheeple"

I find that term to be childish and offensive with no place on this Board.

:cuss: :fire:

WildgonnaeradicatehttatermAlaska

fjolnirsson
May 6, 2004, 12:35 PM
If you are going to put up a poll, there should be the ability to answer it. And Since I agree with it, there is no option to choose.

Already had that poll. Just a couple days ago. Check back a page or so, or do a search, you'll find it.
I wanted clarification from people who had already answered that one.

BTW, welcome to THR!

Wild Alaska,
I dont like it ergo I must be a "sheeple"

Thanks for pointing that out. I had actually decided not to use that word, and simply included it out of habit, I suppose. It's been fixed. I didn't mean to imply that anyone was a sheeple, it's just one of those things lodged in my mind that's gonna take a while to stop using.

jdege
May 6, 2004, 12:39 PM
Open carry requires more care.

20% of cops who are killed are killed with their own guns.

I occasionally stand in check-out lines at the grocery store. No always do I know everyone else in line.

If I were to carry openly, the guy standing behind me would know that I was carrying, and would be able to grab my gun unless I took precautions to prevent it.

Concealed, it's not an issue.

gulogulo1970
May 6, 2004, 12:44 PM
I think if a state has a carry provision it should be both. If you want to carry concealed do it, same with open carry. Choose your poison, whatever is best for your needs at the time.

2nd Amendment
May 6, 2004, 02:18 PM
I find that term to be childish and offensive with no place on this Board.

I find it to be a highly accurate and descriptive term, generally in reference to fence-sitting moderates and leftists, that should have a mandatory place anywhere reasoning people discuss the preservation of rights.

Atticus
May 6, 2004, 02:43 PM
Personally, I just don't like calling attention to myself. What I "am" or what I believe in, are my business only. I've never felt the need to broadcast my inner thoughts to the world - or at least to those within touching distance.

Wildalaska
May 6, 2004, 03:46 PM
I find it to be a highly accurate and descriptive term, generally in reference to fence-sitting moderates and leftists, that should have a mandatory place anywhere reasoning people discuss the preservation of rights.

Epithets like that generally "turn off" fence sitting moderates (which I am dying to see defined)..

Reasoning people dont resort to epithets by the way..

I dont believe that the second am gives anyone the right to carry any gun they want in any fashion at any time. I dont think the Brady bill is violative of the 2nd Am..I dont even believe that even in well established contsitutional tems the so called Assault weapons ban (as to cosmetic features only) would violate the most expansive reading of the 2nd (stupid and misguided as it is)..

Guess that makes me a sheeple



WildmoderateAlaska

spacemanspiff
May 6, 2004, 03:51 PM
wildalaska, if congress banned the Helvetica Type Font because its too difficult to read, would that be an infringement of the 1st amendment?

probably not, but its just as useless.

Wildalaska
May 6, 2004, 03:58 PM
Excellent analogy and quite correct spiffy me lad..

Congrats...you might very well be a sheeple too...

WildbaaaaaAlaska

MeekandMild
May 6, 2004, 04:03 PM
None of the above. Open carry is inpolite and rude.

You don't wear your muddy boots in the house nor your Red Man hat at the dinner table.
You don't clean fish in Mama's sink.
You don't cut in front of traffic and weave between lanes.
You don't walk to the mailbox in your skivvies.
You don't kiss other folk's girls.

So why the tarnation do you want to open carry?

Triad
May 6, 2004, 04:20 PM
Impolite and rude? Explain that.

carpettbaggerr
May 6, 2004, 04:31 PM
Awful lot of impolite, rude cops around.

Carlos Cabeza
May 6, 2004, 04:32 PM
M&M, Item number 4 could be debated. :eek:

Werewolf
May 6, 2004, 04:52 PM
2nd Amendment's take on the term Sheeple was succinctly stated thusly:
I find it to be a highly accurate and descriptive term, generally in reference to fence-sitting moderates and leftists, that should have a mandatory place anywhere reasoning people discuss the preservation of rights.

Agreed! And though some may find the term Sheeple offensive so what? Where is the right not to be offended enumerated? No where that I'm aware of.

The term defines those that gather in herds, think like everyone else simply because that's the way everyone else thinks and do it without any other rational reason than wanting to fit in and be like everyone else. What a sad way to live one's life and IMO it's the reason the USA today is less free than it was 100 or even 50 years ago. Conformance is and always will be the bane of liberty.

What is more offensive than the term Sheeple is the fact that there are those here who have donned the badge of the thought police and find it necessary to pull their politically correct guns and shoot the rest of us with them.

Disgusting - especially here in this conclave of those who claim to love and fight for freedom.

Valkman
May 6, 2004, 04:58 PM
I think in 90% of Nevada open carry would be great, and if I didn't have a CCW I might do it. But there's no way I'd try it in Vegas, and I have a CCW so I wouldn't do it anyway. I don't really want to advertise to the BG casing the place that I'm target #1.

atek3
May 6, 2004, 05:12 PM
Its a prejudice thing. In the 1950's south, no African-American people used the white drinking fountain, or sat near the front of the bus. When ignorant white folks saw just that happening they became shocked and offended. However, after fourty years of seeing that behavior everyday, only the most dumb rednecks, "want them to go to the back of the bus." So it is with Open Carry, when you are the first one, naturally people who've never seen that civil right excercized get mighty antsy, tending to call 911. However, if many more people open carried, people would get over it, except for a few hoplophobic holdouts.

atek3

spacemanspiff
May 6, 2004, 05:13 PM
whoaa nelly!!

i didnt say that i fully agreed with that statement WA.

heres why i think the AWB is an infringment of the 2nd Am:

1. it is based on lies, myths, and more lies.

2. it has done nothing to prevent crimes from happening

3. any law that affects matters covered by the Bill of Rights and Constitution that is based on lies is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

4. unconstitutional laws are an infringement of rights, imho.


now, the AWB has probably done a lot for the economy of gunshops, as it has driven up the costs of firearms with cosmetic features and made it so that poor folk like myself cant afford them.

i almost forgot....WA, what do you define the "Bear Arms" part of the 2nd as? the "Keep" part is easy, the ownership and possession of arms. but what does 'bearing' them mean?

2nd Amendment
May 6, 2004, 05:23 PM
Epithets like that generally "turn off" fence sitting moderates (which I am dying to see defined)..

An assumption, based solely on your own personal reactions. An accurate summation would be that it might well turn off some, while having no effect or even being seen as humorous by others OR even causing some to stop and think. Those many, many things are what it would "generally" cause a fence-sitting moderate(those would be the people who vote "I don't know" in polls, say "I don't want to take sides" on issues that require one either step up or step aside or those who say "Gee, I wouldn't wanna offend anyone...")to do.

Reasoning people dont resort to epithets by the way..

That's an absurd claim. Of course we do, regularly. Especially when amongst those who agree on an issue or when a well placed epithet can have the desired result...such as here.

I dont believe that the second am gives anyone the right to carry any gun they want in any fashion at any time.

Then you're(almost) wrong. I doubt many would claim it gives a violent felon such a right but then i don't think you were even thinking of such.

I dont think the Brady bill is violative of the 2nd Am..

Then you're wrong, period. But still entitled to an opinion.

I dont even believe that even in well established contsitutional tems the so called Assault weapons ban (as to cosmetic features only) would violate the most expansive reading of the 2nd (stupid and misguided as it is)..

Then you're wrong. Amazingly so.

Guess that makes me a sheeple

Nope, just makes you wrong. The fact you think about these issues independent of a controlling influence from the opinions of a peer group removes you from sheeple status. You're halfway home!

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
May 6, 2004, 06:10 PM
I prefer folks not knowing I'm carrying. I'm a big proponent of stealth and the element of surprise, especially when it is in my favor.

However, if I'm riding a horse down a rural farm to market road I'd prefer to have the option to carry openly. There are fewer soccer moms who would be intimidated or just plain skeert out in the country.


Regards,
Rabbit.

MeekandMild
May 6, 2004, 06:13 PM
Impolite and rude? Explain that. Well, I don't know if I CAN explain it if your Mama didn't take the time to raise you so you could see it right off. But I will try. :rolleyes:

You don't wear your boots in the house because you're not the one having to clean up the mud and it ticks off the rest of us who have to walk through it, not to mention whoever has to clean up after your messes. You don't wear your hat at the table so the rest of us can look into your eyes when you try to talk to us. (And don't talk with your mouth full of food!)

You don't open carry in town because sometimes your brother or sister or neighbor might want to leave their pistol at home. So if you are carrying open and some thug comes up and says, 'well I need to rob somebody' they are going see you with a pistol and will turn around and pick on your brother or sister or neighbor. Everybody with any raising at all knows they are their brother's keeper and they love their neighbor as theyself.

So open carry is not only rude and impolite it is downright uncharitable as well. Not to mention the fact that somebody is liable to jack slap you for putting on airs.

Pumpkinheaver
May 6, 2004, 06:39 PM
Someone is up to no good andI have a visiable gun. who do you think is gonna get shot first?

mrapathy2000
May 6, 2004, 06:49 PM
poll needed to include the option "I dont agree open carry is bad"

:neener:

sm
May 6, 2004, 06:58 PM
None of the above.

Not allowed in my State.
Even so , I prefer to be low profile and have the element of surprise.

Grin as you walk out of the smoke , keeps 'em guessing and makes them wonder what the hell you will do next - Dave Robicheaux
a character from a book...Author's name escapes me, as does the book title. I like the line tho' and the idea behind it. :)

Wildalaska
May 6, 2004, 07:07 PM
didnt say that i fully agreed with that statement WA.

Well spiffy, all your comments go to the efficacy of the law as opposed to its constituionality...stupid laws can be constituional, and I have yet to see how not allowing a bayonet lug is unconstituional as opposed to plain dumb.

An assumption, based solely on your own personal reactions. An accurate summation would be that it might well turn off some, while having no effect or even being seen as humorous by others OR even causing some to stop and think. Those many, many things are what it would "generally" cause a fence-sitting moderate(those would be the people who vote "I don't know" in polls, say "I don't want to take sides" on issues that require one either step up or step aside or those who say "Gee, I wouldn't wanna offend anyone...")to do.

Well 2nd A, id respond to that ifin I knew what you are saying...

And I daresay I am dying to see how you argue the unconstituionality of the "cosmetic' portions of the ban

And thanks for not including me in your category of sheeple...its so nice to be patronized...:barf:

WildimgonnabeaonemancampaignagainstthewordsheepleandalltheinvectiveiseeAlaska

spacemanspiff
May 6, 2004, 07:57 PM
[parody] CONGRESS PASSES LAW PROHIBITING THE PRODUCTION OF 'ASSAULT HIP-HOP MUSIC'.

AHHM is defined as "Music with a driving bass beat that has at least two of the following:
> anger towards law enforcement officers
> use of the expression 'bling-bling'
> unintelligible ebonics slang
> band members with more than one criminal conviction

Production of this AHHM will be prohibited after June 1, 2004. All existing 'pre-ban' AHHM will be legal to own, possess and listen to. Record companies will not be allowed to manufacture recordings of AHHM after 6/1/2004 for sale in this country. They may export them to other countries that have not banned AHHM.

Supporters of the AHHM-ban argue that listeners of Assault Hip Hop Music are more likely to wear pants sagging off their behinds, sideways ball caps, gold caps, and suffer from bad back injuries caused by wearing excessive amounts of 'bling-bling' around their necks.

Concerned mothers were heard sharing accounts of taking their young children to expensive chiropracters and having to hear their offspring whine and complain about how sore their backs and necks were.

Some analysts hypothesize that AHHM is also responsible for todays youth refusing to smile for family pictures, instead they put on their darksest scowl and flash supposed gang signs for holiday pictures. Such pictures may go unnoticed until sent to an unsuspecting family member. Grandparents usually experience the worst reactions, and some have claimed they caused the elderly patriarchs and matriarchs to go into cardiac arrest, but those claims are so far unfounded.

[end parody]


*sorry, got carried away there for a few minutes..... now, WA, would the above fictional ban be 'unconstitutional'?

Wildalaska
May 6, 2004, 08:02 PM
sorry, got carried away there for a few minutes..... now, WA, would the above fictional ban be 'unconstitutional'?

Yep...

Nice parody by the way...but poor analogy...

WildmissinthepointspiffAlaska

spacemanspiff
May 6, 2004, 08:10 PM
it should be MY choice if i want to buy a semi automatic rifle that has a pistol grip, detachable magazine, threaded barrel, bayonet lug, and grenade launcher. so waht if i cant find any grenades at my local gunshop to buy?! it looks cool, dammit!

just like it should be someones personal choice to listen to AHHM if they desire. to have those choices removed because legislators believed the lie that AW's are deadlier than non-AW's is unconstitutional.

PAOLO721
May 6, 2004, 08:22 PM
Simply stated, concealed carry is tactically superior to open carry.

Wildalaska
May 6, 2004, 08:29 PM
it should be MY choice if i want to buy a semi automatic rifle that has a pistol grip, detachable magazine, threaded barrel, bayonet lug, and grenade launcher. so waht if i cant find any grenades at my local gunshop to buy?! it looks cool, dammit!

Just becasue ya want it doenst mean its constituionally protected.

Again stupid laws can be cinstituional...

your analogy BANS the speech which is constituionally protected...unconstituional...

the AWB only prohibits cosmetic aspects...the weapon itself is not banned...merely ...hmm...dare I say it...well regulated...

Here let me posit it this way...if all military style weapons were REQUIRED to be threaded for a flash hider...would you say that was unconstituional..

Or even better...lets say a law was passed REQUIRING suppressors be used when shooting...unconstituional?

WildriddlemethisbatmanAlaska

spacemanspiff
May 6, 2004, 08:47 PM
you're making my brain work too hard today.

you owe me at least a magazine or two through a subgun.



like i said, its my humble opinion that the AWB is unconstitutional. i dont have to back up ALL of my opinions with facts, do i?

:neener:

MaterDei
May 6, 2004, 08:52 PM
I must say that I am surprised by the results... so far.

I don't fear LEOs and I don't fear soccer moms. I do, however, want the bad guys not knowing that I am packing.

Michael

jobu07
May 6, 2004, 08:53 PM
Eh, here's my 2 cents. FWIW I think that you should be able to carry however the heck you want to carry. Concealed, open, it's all good. My choice, my opinion, my guns. Carry it how you want.

Wildalaska
May 6, 2004, 09:02 PM
i dont have to back up ALL of my opinions with facts, do i?

Absolutely not, a large number of second amendment absolutists and their opposite numbers on the other side feel the same way :):neener: :what:

WildonlyonemagferyouAlaska

MoNsTeR
May 6, 2004, 10:17 PM
All of the above

ksnecktieman
May 6, 2004, 10:53 PM
wild alaska? Will you give me your explanation of what the second amendment means please? I think it is a pretty plain line of 27 words that would be difficult to misinterpret.

mrapathy2000
May 7, 2004, 12:15 AM
wild alaska? Will you give me your explanation of what the second amendment means please? I think it is a pretty plain line of 27 words that would be difficult to misinterpret.

yet we have people who do not understand it and do not adhere to it and infringe peoples right coast to coast and beyound, AK and HI.

what does the 2nd Amendmant say about arms yet what do we have law wise for say machine guns,"semi automatic assault weapons" :rolleyes:,SBR's,paperwork,background check,Gun Registration and lets not forget Age descrimination or bigotry depending on how you look at it.

JOHN KERRY:I support the second ammendment,I hunt. rating from brady bunch 100%:rolleyes:

I wish I lived in a state that allowed full-auto or SBR's and silencers I am lucky to have semi automatic rifles with remotely evil features. thinking of moving to nicer state law and weather wise. costly though emphasises freedom is not free.

why should LEO's and Organized militia and certain state officials and politicians(especially in states citizens/unorganized militia is not allowed) be allowed rights,firearms,CCW and open carry yet unorganized militia or average citizen be denied such right.

Iowa Constition:
http://www.legis.state.ia.us/Constitution.html

ARTICLE I.
BILL OF RIGHTS.

Rights of persons. SECTION 1. All men and women are, by nature, free and equal, and have certain inalienable rights--among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing and protecting property, and pursuing and obtaining safety and happiness.

Laws uniform. SEC. 6. All laws of a general nature shall have a uniform operation; the general assembly shall not grant to any citizen, or class of citizens, privileges or immunities, which, upon the same terms shall not equally belong to all citizens.

definition of class:To grouped or classed,
The genus or famiky under which it classes. --Tatham.

Class \Class\ (kl[.a]s), n. [F. classe, fr. L. classis class,
collection, fleet; akin to Gr. klh^sis a calling, kalei^n to
call, E. claim, haul.]
1. A group of individuals ranked together as possessing
common characteristics; as, the different classes of
society; the educated class; the lower classes.

2. A number of students in a school or college, of the same
standing, or pursuing the same studies.

3. A comprehensive division of animate or inanimate objects,
grouped together on account of their common
characteristics, in any classification in natural science,
and subdivided into orders, families, tribes, genera, etc.

I think strongly people should have the right to open carry just as they should have the right to CCW whether they be LEO or civilian or some other class.

whats bad about open carry outside of badguys. park,countryside outside of city or a small city or small population or peacefull city low crime no bad guys.

2nd Amendment
May 7, 2004, 12:43 AM
Well 2nd A, id respond to that ifin I knew what you are saying...

A) It's just your opinion of constituionality. AND it is your job to show how it IS constitutional. I'd like to see how you can do that in regards to a federal ban targeting cosmetic features of the type found on personal military weapons the 2A is referring to...

B) You assume it offends people. That is an assumption. Certainly it may but it may, and does, also have other effects. Your generalization is just that, a generalization.

C) I gave you a functional definition of fence-sitting-moderates.

D) Saying you are categorically wrong is patronizing? I thought it was simply telling you you are wrong.

There, clear as mud now?

RealGun
May 7, 2004, 11:34 AM
Excuse me for being late to the party and posting 'on topic'.

I do not like the restriction on open carry, because it means that unintentionally failing to conceal is a misdemeanor. I would like to leave it that I may intend to conceal and have a problem occasionally. I also do not appreciate the law determining how I dress or what size and caliber of gun I choose to carry.

My choice would be to carry concealed because I don't think bad guys should ever be confident who is armed and who is not.

As far as soccer moms go, I don't believe they generally have a problem with armed police officers, and I deserve to be regarded as benign in the same way. If open carry or the knowledge that honest people often carry concealed legally were more endemic, what people might think would be a non-issue.


I do not agree with any distinction made between an LEO carrying with full public knowledge and my right to carry in self defense. My right to carry existed long before the existence of police forces, and there is no way I am going to agree that suddenly the police take precedence.

I have a license and carry concealed only because I don't have any choice. I don't accept that and never will. I would definitely participate in any effort to repeal the whole house of cards that infringes upon my rights to carry as I wish to. As long as my gun stays in its holster, everyone else can just butt out, except to the extent that they would have the same issue with an LEO.

Triad
May 7, 2004, 12:46 PM
Meek, keep reachiing, something that actually makes sense and can be defended logically might come within your grasp.:rolleyes:

J Miller
May 7, 2004, 02:45 PM
I didn't vote in the poll since you didn't have a disenting choice.

( X) I don't belive open cary is bad at all. If I act like a responsible person there will be no problems.


I open caried when I lived in AZ....legally. I did not feel the need to jump through the hoops and beg the State's blessing for doing what was already legal.
I never had any trouble, not once was I ever hassled by any LEO, nor was I ever "targeted" by any criminals. I carried on city streets while riding my bicycle, while shopping and even in banks. The only comments I ever got was from those that were scared because my 1911's were cocked and locked.

It's my belief that those who open cary, even legally, and get hasseled by LEO's have done something that attracted their attention.

I actually prefer open cary to the paranoia of the concealed cary mindset.

But that's just me.

Joe

manyironsinfire
May 7, 2004, 03:00 PM
I read an article awhile back that the baddies feared a private citizen with a gun much more so then they did an LEO, Simply because a citizen was more likely to shoot them. That's why I dont believe in open carry!!!!We have to be by law, reactive. Surprise is our only comfort.

fjolnirsson
May 24, 2004, 01:44 AM
btt, for new members.

chas_martel
May 24, 2004, 11:56 AM
Wildalaska,

I think you need to do a little bit of research about what the word
"regulated" means.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with "restricting" what I might "possess".

It has everything to do with being well trained and equiped.

I forget who it was, but I believe it was a SC justice or one of the founding fathers that said we must go back in time and use the context and words
of the day to determine the meaning of the constitution.

Interpreting the word "regulated" to mean having laws passed that restrict our 2nd Amd Rights is WRONG!

Chip Dixon
May 25, 2004, 10:34 AM
chas_martel beat me to it.

Wild_Alaska, the term "well regulated", as used in the second amendment, means well trained and outfitted. It doesn't mean restricted. It is by sheer coincidence that the word regulated is no longer used in the context that is was used at the time that the bill of rights was written.

Another word commonly misunderstood in the second amendment is 'militia'. Many people think this means the modern national guard.
Sure, that may be what the federal govt. calls it today, but when the second amendment was written that ment every able bodied male 17+.

One must have an understanding of the language that a document is written in before they can read it and understand what it means. The constitution and bill of rights may be in 'english', but it is not 21st century english. The bill of rights should not be castrated just because some of the words in it have changed their meaning over time. It should be interpreted as it was originally intended.

To say that only "cosmetic" things were banned by the AWB speaks of your ignorance of the bill. Are new high capacity magazines aesthetic? Collapsible stocks are definately not just aesthetic. Grenade launchers are not aesthetic. Pistol grips are not aesthetic. These are all very functional parts of a weapons system that have a purpose, and definately infringe upon my right (as a member of the militia as defined when the constitution was written) to keep and bear arms in a well regulated (best equipped and trained) fashion.

The AWB is blatantly unconstitutional.


And about open carry: I'll open carry a gun if it does not conceal well, otherwise it is tactically superior to conceal the gun, as long as it is holstered in a fashion that it can be quickly dispatched if needed. I'll gladly open carry my shotgun, N/L-Frame S&Ws, and rifles, but the 1911, K and J-Frame S&Ws stay covered by my shirt. If I won't be arrested for doing so, and I feel inclined to, I'll gladly open carry -- unless I'll be in a very crowded area. It's a pain to have to constantly make sure no one is looking to grab your piece off of your waist and run down the alley somewhere while you're busy. No one would know what's up if I was carrying my 1911 IWB. I have no reservations about debating anyone who feels I should not have a gun, so the whole "offending people" thing doesn't bother me -- as I would not be inclined to open carry a rifle, shotgun, or large revolver in situations where it would be inappropriate. (in liberal homes, etc.)

Heraclitus
May 25, 2004, 02:55 PM
1) You never want to give a thug the opportunity to pre-empt your move.
2) You don't want to spook the sheep. You want to fleece them.
3) Swinging your penis at everyone increases the odds that you will get into an unwanted fight with the likes of you. There are more bets on a challenge than there will ever be if you "keep it tucked".

Wildalaska
May 25, 2004, 03:07 PM
Im was asked what my understanding of the Second Amendment is...

Here it is again..

If and When the Supreme Court interprets it, it will be held to be that it is an idividual right subject to narrowly drawn regulation that will be strictly scrutinized by the Courts to ensure that the law satisfies an overriding state interest and is a minimal interfernece with the right.

Further prediction: Under this test, the Brady Bill is constituional. The prohibition on felon ownership is constituional. The AWB is unconstiuional. Reasonable Manner and means of carry laws are constitional. NJ laws arent. and so on.

Cry and scream all ya want amatuer scholars, debate it on the internet forever, thats the way it will be. Bet ya a beer.

WildgonnagetdrunkAlaska

pwrtool45
May 25, 2004, 07:56 PM
To quote an acquaintance, "Constitutional law is what 12 Justices say it is." It is very important to remember that. Until it is struck down, the fact of the matter is that (at this time) it is legal and enforcable. (We, as citizens, do have some input as to the outcome of the situation by way of public opinion, but the end result is that the act of determining the validity of Federal law is made by 12 people we had no direct say in selecting, who are not directly accountable to anyone, and are appointed for life.)

It is because it is. If, in the future, it isn't, then it won't be. "Should be" is not part of the equation unless you're one of the Chosen 12. Maybe it should be, but it isn't.

Unconstitutional? I don't understand people being up in arms about flash hiders and bayonet lugs but being completely ambivalent about having to fill out a 4473 every time they want a new boomstick or having to fill out the paperwork and wait for weeks (or months) so they can get their "I don't have to be a victim" card (CCW). I see something unconstituional here, but it ain't got nothing to do with no doo-dads hanging on AR-15s.

*feels this thread being moved to L&P veeeeery soon.*
*avoids L&P like the plague.*
*has never, ever posted to a thread in L&P. ever.*

So, to keep it on topic, I think open carry is bad because I don't want the back of my skull caved in with a rock on account of some goblin who wants my shiny sixgun. (Are sixguns even stylish anymore? I mean, would they pass me up and wait for a guy or a gal with a Glock?)

Apparently, I'm the other pinko liberal here. Didn't know there were two, WA. If'n you're ever down in Alabama, I'll buy you a beer.

Tom Servo
May 25, 2004, 09:11 PM
If I were to carry openly, the guy standing behind me would know that I was carrying, and would be able to grab my gun unless I took precautions to prevent it.
...or they would try, in which case, I'd take it as a threat on my life (and the state of Georgia agrees), and I'd act accordingly.

So what do we have here? I've potentially taken a human life, and I'm subject to a lawsuit from the perp or his family, all of which I could simply avoid by untucking my shirt. I'm not TOO worried about printing or whether someone around me might have a keen eye, what I'm worried about is the temptation that the wrong folks might have to try to take my sidearm.

sendec
May 25, 2004, 09:26 PM
From what I can determine, the primary motivation for open carry is to draw attention to the fact that the wearer has a gun. For LEOs and people who carry a firearm as a course of their work this is a non-issue, but why would anyone else want to? I cannot see a good reason for it and have to think that many who complain about the hassles and looks they get are halfway trying to get a rise out of people anyway. I dont know of many carpenters who go out of their way to display their hammers, nor do doctors wander around the mall with their stethescopes on. "Getting society used to guns" is a pretty bizarre form of public service.

Just curious, how many CCW'ers would wear a bright orange jacket that said "I'm wearing a gun"?

I also wonder why this seems always about wearing a holstered handgun. Why not a slung rifle? If you are going to open carry at least have an effective gun. Seriously, if you feel the absolute need to carry, and are willing to do so visibly, you really cannot justify not doing it. So what kind of response will walking into the grcery store with an AR or AK slung up reasonably be expected to get?

jdege
May 25, 2004, 09:54 PM
why would anyone else want to

Politics.

The gun-grabbers greatest weapon is their ability to portray gun ownership as something unusual and perverse.

In a world in which ordinary people carry openly on a regular basis, it's impossible for the hoplophobes to convince the ignorant masses that carrying a gun is unusual.

And it's impossible for them to maintain their fantastical belief that they live in a world in which guns don't exist.

fjolnirsson
May 25, 2004, 10:22 PM
From what I can determine, the primary motivation for open carry is to draw attention to the fact that the wearer has a gun

How about the desire to remain armed while not being forced to wear a piece of metal wedged into my already sweaty waistband as I go about my business?
How about not being forced to wear a cover garment in 100+ weather? How about not worrying that my cover garment will fail, causing a man with a gun call?
How about a citizen moving into a state who wants to carry while awaiting his government permit to carry concealed?
In an open carry state, there should be no problem.
That said, I am predisposed to not carry openly, because I am paranoid enough as it is. However, when I move from the PRK, I will be in a situation of continuing to be unarmed, or open carrying while I wait for my permit. The state I have chosen allows open carry.
Is it better to be unarmed until I recieve my permit? Or shall I do what I can to ensure the safety of my infant child?
It's not right to paint open carriers with such a broad brush of childisness and lookatme-ism.
People often have reasons for what they do. Good reasons.

sendec
May 25, 2004, 11:20 PM
Hey, I think it was you that asked the question, if your mind is made up you dont need my opinion. But dont play the drama card. If a person has an articulable reason for violating a CCW law they may very well have an affirmative defense. If I can articulate a clear and present danger to my infant kid, heck yes, sling up that rifle. But none of your points address any specific need for being armed in a public fashion.

I have carried concealed, 24/7/365 for over 20 years, so I know it is a pain. But it comes with being armed. Open carry was not against the law in my state and may still be OK. But I would no sooner wander around with my pistol exposed than I would my colostomy bag: people dont need to see that s--t. If your comfort is the over-riding issue here, well, you can be hot, or people can look at you funny. Its your choice.

Wildalaska
May 26, 2004, 12:23 AM
Couldnt have said it better myself Sendec...


WildtoohottossoneinyourpocketAlaska

ExtremeDooty
May 26, 2004, 12:38 AM
I always open carried around my property and my neighbors new it and we'd get into discussions about it. Once we got past the paranoid question, I told them it's legal to open carry on my property and in walmart. but I need the concealed license to drive the gun to the store. They seemed to think that was silly.

fjolnirsson
May 26, 2004, 01:31 AM
But none of your points address any specific need for being armed in a public fashion. If your comfort is the over-riding issue here, well, you can be hot, or people can look at you funny. Its your choice.
and:
toohottossoneinyourpocket

Maybe I wasn't clear when I posted this:
How about a citizen moving into a state who wants to carry while awaiting his government permit to carry concealed?
when I move from the PRK, I will be in a situation of continuing to be unarmed, or open carrying while I wait for my permit. The state I have chosen allows open carry.
Is it better to be unarmed until I recieve my permit? Or shall I do what I can to ensure the safety of my infant child?

So, should I be unarmed, or commit a crime rather than open carry?
C'mon, guys, I'm really not trying to be a jerk, I just don't understand the vehemence of your arguement against open carry.
Personally, I don't see the need for open carry in most cases. But I don't deny the need for it in some circumstances.

fjolnirsson
May 26, 2004, 10:02 PM
btt waiting for a well reasoned response to my previous post.;)

Majic
May 26, 2004, 11:13 PM
Just like religion and politics you will find differing opinions with both sides standing their own ground. Carry as you please as you have to have peace of mind with your choice.
Open carry may point you out as the first target, but it could also cause the aggressor to fear you and give you a wide berth. Concealed carry may cause doubt for the aggressor, or it could put you in the catergory as a likely victim. Depending on the type and angle of the attack will determine if your weapon will do you any good or not with either style of carry. There are positive and negative variables to both methods. You make your choice.

fjolnirsson
May 27, 2004, 12:14 AM
Majic,

That was the point I was trying to make with this survey, and the other one I started which went with it.
There are good and bad points to both modes of carry.

Rickstir
May 27, 2004, 10:06 AM
With Missouri's new CCW law, and the historical ability to open carry through out the state with just a few exceptions, the choice is mine. I live in a rural gun-friendly county. I have open-carried for years. It was a hassle in the car to unholster and put the piece on the dash or seat so that an LEO standing at my window could easily see it. That is the law.
So now with my CCW permit, even if I am carrying open, I don't have to unholster. I carry open around the farm and if I am running errands in town. People who know me never ask about it. We do have some tourist trade with a local large recreational lake. Just last weekend I stopped at a camp ground to buy ice. There was a car of "visitors" from St. Louis parked next to the ice machine. The owner knows me and I always get the ice myself and put the money in a box he keeps on top of the machine. I was wearing my Beretta 92FS OWB, nice holster with a wicked looking FBI cant. As I turned to go back to my truck, everyone in the car was looking out the window at me like they were in a drive through zoo. :D Poor sheeple, probably the first time they ever saw a firearm in person.

Only been asked about why I am carrying a gun twice by little old ladies. Now that I have my CCW permit, I have had some of my friends ask me (when they could not see my gun) if I was packing. I never answer that question. :rolleyes:

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